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Saturnino
02-05-2005, 09:49 AM
My response to Makow`s last post on his savethemales website about UFOs. Finally, I disagree with the man in something. :-)

_____________________________________________

Dear Dr Makow,

It is a fact that we are seeing more UFO activity these days. However, what should we make of it ?
Some facts:

- encounters with aliens, abductions and conversations with aliens bear an extreme resemblance to supernatural, spiritist occult activities. Many, or most people who pass thru these experiences have been dabbing with the occult for some time. Aliens behave more like spirits than material beings, using telepathy, automatic writing, etc. They themselves say sometimes that they are disembodied spirits. People involved in occultism really make contact with spirits, and they are not lying...they are only being deceived, thinking that those demons they talked to are aliens.

- they (aliens) are ALL adepts of new age philosophy and always anti-Christian. Masonry and occult societies are very FOR aliens, not against. They believe in Atlantis, and somehow justify their doings by a desire to return to that age (when supposedly the aliens ruled).

- The Bible shows clearly that Satan has power over nature, like in the story when Jesus calms down a demonic caused storm, or the natural destruction caused by Satan to Job. It is only because of God`s restrain that Satan has not destroyed us all.

It is my firm opinion that the UFO phenomena is in reality a demonic masquerade to deceive people into believing that there is hope apart from God. In the last days, the Bible says that God will allow Satan to have freedom to make wonders to deceive those who refused to believe. I think that`s what Satan is doing with those UFOs. They are probably caused by demons acting in our dimension with powers we don`t comprehend, much like they use to do with ectoplasm, strange tumors and weird stuff like that (remeber the Fatima sun dance). Somehow God is willing to let them put on this freak show to test the faith of believers. But UFOs are just that, illusions and energy shows.

The Bible also says that we would have such a delusion that, if permited, would deceive even the elect. It seems it is what is happening now.

Anyway, the main point is: occult societies are allies, not enemies of so called aliens. This book must be a decoy.

Best regards,

xxxxx (Saturnino) - Brazil

PS: I suggest some readings from Bill Schnoebelem and a book named The Beautiful Side of Evil for a better understanding of satan's power to deceive. People really do leave their bodies, talk to spirits, and it seems that some even travel to wierd spiritual places, where they are at the hands of demons. No wonder God forbids these activities so vehemently. It is like going down in a pit of snakes.

get_real
02-05-2005, 10:11 AM
Saturnino wrote:
My response to Makow`s last post on his savethemales website about UFOs. Finally, I disagree with the man in something. :-)

_____________________________________________

Dear Dr Makow,

It is a fact that we are seeing more UFO activity these days. However, what should we make of it ?
Some facts:

- encounters with aliens, abductions and conversations with aliens bear an extreme resemblance to supernatural, spiritist occult activities. Many, or most people who pass thru these experiences have been dabbing with the occult for some time. Aliens behave more like spirits than material beings, using telepathy, automatic writing, etc. They themselves say sometimes that they are disembodied spirits. People involved in occultism really make contact with spirits, and they are not lying...they are only being deceived, thinking that those demons they talked to are aliens.

- they (aliens) are ALL adepts of new age philosophy and always anti-Christian. Masonry and occult societies are very FOR aliens, not against. They believe in Atlantis, and somehow justify their doings by a desire to return to that age (when supposedly the aliens ruled).

- The Bible shows clearly that Satan has power over nature, like in the story when Jesus calms down a demonic caused storm, or the natural destruction caused by Satan to Job. It is only because of God`s restrain that Satan has not destroyed us all.

It is my firm opinion that the UFO phenomena is in reality a demonic masquerade to deceive people into believing that there is hope apart from God. In the last days, the Bible says that God will allow Satan to have freedom to make wonders to deceive those who refused to believe. I think that`s what Satan is doing with those UFOs. They are probably caused by demons acting in our dimension with powers we don`t comprehend, much like they use to do with ectoplasm, strange tumors and weird stuff like that (remeber the Fatima sun dance). Somehow God is willing to let them put on this freak show to test the faith of believers. But UFOs are just that, illusions and energy shows.

The Bible also says that we would have such a delusion that, if permited, would deceive even the elect. It seems it is what is happening now.

Anyway, the main point is: occult societies are allies, not enemies of so called aliens. This book must be a decoy.

Best regards,

xxxxx (Saturnino) - Brazil

PS: I suggest some readings from Bill Schnoebelem and a book named The Beautiful Side of Evil for a better understanding of satan's power to deceive. People really do leave their bodies, talk to spirits, and it seems that some even travel to wierd spiritual places, where they are at the hands of demons. No wonder God forbids these activities so vehemently. It is like going down in a pit of snakes.

Hello Saturnino, how are you?
If I may ask, is it possible that these UFO's are man-made experimental crafts? Just asking, ya know this is a conspiracy sight (hehe).
I welcome your reponse.

Saturnino
02-05-2005, 10:35 AM
Yes, I guess it is possible that SOME are, but not those who take people aboard, etc. These are spiritual travels, spiritual allucinations.

I used to have a friend, a marketing executive, with a degree, etc. No freak at all. She would come in the company in the morning (a multinational) and tell us about the astral travel she had last night, how she talked with these beings of light from another planet, etc. She was really sincere. Not a lunatic, just deceived by demons. Later I learned this is common occult practice.

It is interesting that many scientists made their big discoveries in dreams and visions (told by spirits)...maybe people are receiving technologic advice to built some TOYS (guns?) that fly without jets. It surely would be a help in the general delusion, but they are not ships from other planets.

Chupacabras may be the same thing, spirits that had the permission of God to play those ugly jokes. If the Bible is right (and it is) we will see more and more of those things. But they are just spiritual clown tricks.

I remember seeing a movie from a tourist of a UFO near the WTC. The thing moved as quickly as lightining. Anyone aboard would be crushed by G-forces. Was it a probe ? Probably. From Sirius star...no way.

Anyway, some Christians believe that God may allow demons to materialize in the end times (Nephylins). I have a hard time with that. They would destroy us in a second.

But the main fact is that i don`t agree with Makow`s position that aliens are against the NWO...they are one of the main pieces in the agenda of the big delusion.

I urge you to check www.cuttingedge.org for a good exposé.

All the best.

get_real
02-05-2005, 11:21 AM
Saturnino, not to get off the subject too much, you mentioned the word: hallucinating, sooooooo
what do you think about people who have visited, say, Medjugorje--and claimed to have seen a vision (of the blessed virgin mary), or heard a voice. ???? How do you view these individuals? Are they deperate for a "sign", "message", etc., therefore they 'see', and 'hear'.
For the record let me say, I am no longer Christian, so you might detect some disagreement/opposition from time to time in certain responses to postings, but I'm a cool cat with a kind heart.

nomad
02-05-2005, 12:45 PM
Saturnino, 2 questions for you.

1.How would you respond to Nikola Tesla's

early 1900s quote below ?

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"My flying machine will have neither wings nor propellers. You might see it on the ground and you would never guess that it was a flying machine. Yet it will be able to move at will through the air in any direction with perfect safety, higher speeds than have yet been reached, regardless of weather and oblivious of 'holes in the air' or downward currents. It will ascend in such currents if desired.

"It can remain absolutely stationary in the air even in a wind for great length of time. Its lifting power will not depend upon any such delicate devices as the bird has to employ, but upon positive mechanical action.

Nikola Tesla
-------------------------------------------

2. What has Albert Einstein done for YOU ?

Ahmad
02-05-2005, 02:10 PM
Peace Saturnino,

I agree, Quran confirms that the only lving organisms with freedom of choice are the Jinns and the Human beings.

The Jinn-beings are descendants of Satan, they are invisible demons who whisper to us the evil thoughts, some of them are righteous though.

Some of the righteous among them said in Quran that the humans who tried to seek powers from the Jinn were only afflicted with pain and misery.

I think this disclosure project is launched by some Jinn-beings who are in a power struggle with another faction of Jinn-beings (the leaders' controllers) who want to control their own kind and limit their extraterristial travels through space energy weapons, since even the demons are affected by these space weapons. God says that they are capable of travelling in space within limits.

However if we are to seek powers from these "advanced civilizations" we will only harm ourselves through idolizing them and forgetting that only God has power.

DoctorX
02-05-2005, 03:36 PM
the best sites on the net that I have found with information on the demonic conspiracy that is the ufo phenomena are

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/ufos.html
http://www.stargods.org

the so called 'aliens' will show themselves to the world sooner or later. They will either claim to bring peace and then the slaughter will begin, or they will invade from the getko. The end of both scenarios is the slaughter of humanity.

55132
02-05-2005, 04:08 PM
The Bible says that in the end times Satan and his minions would be confined to earth and that the earth is totaly possed by satan, prior to this he could move at will between heaven and earth.

It also states that when the final battle comes Jesus and his armies will come from the heavens and that the antichrist and his armies will fight against the LOrd but the Lord will prvail.

Does't this sound like a space inavsion?

55132

DoctorX
02-05-2005, 04:22 PM
55132 wrote:
The Bible says that in the end times Satan and his minions would be confined to earth and that the earth is totaly possed by satan, prior to this he could move at will between heaven and earth.

It also states that when the final battle comes Jesus and his armies will come from the heavens and that the antichrist and his armies will fight against the LOrd but the Lord will prvail.

Does't this sound like a space inavsion?

Interesting, I really can't tell but who knows what will happen.

What I do believe is that in the coming future after the global cataclysms/wars/plagues that will slaughter most of humanity, the planet will be in such an evil state that you will see things that defy all morality and logic. Canibalism everywhere, beastiality, human sacrifice, all these things you will see IN PUBLIC PLACES!

and of course the supernatural will become normal. Like the Bible says about the return of Christ, it would be as in the days of Noah. If you study the days of Noah it was a disgusting, evil world.

ydkm
02-05-2005, 05:09 PM
jesus,muhammed and buddha were all aliens. They will come back once an embassy for them is allowed to be built in israel.

zanyzan311
02-05-2005, 06:04 PM
I always thought that Satan would bring in the aliens at the end times to wow everybody. Imagine seeing a UFO on the nightly news. Churches would be deserted. They would impart their wisdom to us and we would have to submit their superior intellect. Thats not how i would view it but the majority would be willing to accept some "unified utopia" on this planet after seeing something like that. OR maybe it will be all a hoax that NWO concocts through their control of the media to make people submit. Whether it is man made or not, its still a likely scenario.

shatrani
02-05-2005, 09:19 PM
Aliens arent demons!
First we keep going to analyse what is the difference.
Aliens are prople like us but what different bodies but they have DNA like us but gentetical information is a little bit different. There are many different aliens . There are good(positive) aliens and negative aliens.
History known and recognise a famous aliens being good : big blonds or big golden i dont know how in english is the therm. But they ussualy take care about us they never influence our history or broke our free will They know divine laws and never broke.
The famous alien , but negative is : little grey. We see in every movie where is about aliens a face being like them. They are famous because they want to use us slaves. They had in touch with people and influence us . Then target is nevative thats obvious. Who doesn't heared about kidnapping or take away for some experience in weird labs. Who doesnt see in different places UFO. Yes UFO machines was made by germans also in Second War (little gray technology).
Keep searching a book in that sense. Secret mission " Trojan Horse" - by Richard Gleen.[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/shatrani/Angel-over-world.jpg]

shatrani
02-05-2005, 09:48 PM
And now about demons. They aren't entities with phisical body. They live in other plan(low level , low vibration).
They are satan's assistances, but they never resist around a human being with high vibration or things with high vibration(like: cross,incense or other divination things). They are tools without free will . They go where are atractted by low and dirty energy (vibration).They are tools because God use them to tempt us to see if we understand our lessons here on Earth. An spiritual human being are in touch with light (with God ) and these creatures(demons) hate the light. Demons listen and afraid when a spiritual human being is around. There are some practices in Tibet using by spiritual people - they use some kind of creatures because demons haven't free will and they go and they do what somebody asks them. Yes, I agree, sounds scareing for who doesn't knows about spiritual power and how to use it in positive sense only to help people to guide people on light way.
We are tempt by demons in every moment. Think twice when you smoke a ciggarette-you feed a demon. See how easy is it to be in touch with them? Think positive , keep you clen (body, mind ) and be in touch with God and never demons should be around. But this way is a little bit hard for many people. But this is the way, this is the target and opposite with Freemasons target. Be free and be in touch with light!

Ahmad
02-06-2005, 06:39 AM
Peace Shatrani,

"They are tools without free will "


But if they are without free will, how could they have rebelled against God, how did their father Satan proclaim he is a god ?

Maybe the good ones you are talking about are the good Jinns. I agree that it is all about our freedom. obsessions, addictions, phobias and hates are tools they use to bind us in slavery and distract us from the light of God.

They have free will, but God is using them to test us. That doesn't mean God advocates sin, the Jins lead by Satan are the ones who initiate the evil thoughts and God may allow them to do so if it goes with His overall master plan.

As for Jesus coming back in clouds, i would like to draw the attention of the Christians here that there have been a great misunderstanding of this verse. Quran says that Jesus was raised to Heaven prior to the torture, and he is not coming back. Please reflect on this verse carefully:

Matthew 26:64 Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

only God and the angels will come on the judgment day,

Quran:

[2:210] Are they waiting until GOD Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to GOD everything will be returned.

shatrani
02-06-2005, 02:52 PM
[quote]
Ahmad wrote:
Peace Shatrani,

"They are tools without free will "


But if they are without free will, how could they have rebelled against God, how did their father Satan proclaim he is a god ?

Hello,

I tell you God doesn't use nobody with free will so demons to be used no need to have free will.
Satan knows who is God but doesn't want to recognize God being The Single Creator.
Satan is against God because his ego is bigger then his awarness. God choose Satan to be a tool but if God want could destroy him in a moment. But God use satan because that he was created. When satan become unusefull he will be locked somewhere in Universe. But that isnt our problem. Our problem is to change ourself to recongnize God inside us and outside us. To go home and home it means with God.The things going to change soon if we are able to see what happens with us. But this is another thing, keeping by ourselfs.

02-06-2005, 07:18 PM
Ahmad your posts about Jesus are always amusing, in a mentally demented way.

Only a fool would digest anything that you have to say since you bow to a 'moon' god named allah and follow the teachings of a murderer named mohammed.

You do Not know Jesus and He certainly does NOT know you! You have rejected Jesus as Savior and so He will reject you before the Father. Christians do NOT heed the lies and deceptions uttered by satanic pagans but rather follow and believe in the teachings of Christ as found in the Bible.

Your Koran, the same book Muslim terrorists follow, is a book of nonsense and satanic deception. The Koran and allah are leading you straight into hell.

The fabricated 'jesus' of the Koran IS NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible who lives in the hearts of millions of His followers.

I've got news for you--Christ IS going to return one day in the clouds and remove His followers from this earth.

Like others who are left beind, you will submit to the Beast and bow to him or you will be put to death.

This alien and UFO phenomenon will probably play a major part in a great deception that is coming to the earth.

If you don't know Christ and haven't accepted Him as your Savior--NOW is the time to do so!

Ahmad
02-06-2005, 09:09 PM
Peace Anonymous,

1- Allah in Arabic means God, it is not a name, and this is the same god of all the religions. The claim of a moon god is nonesense, i will reproduce a reply from another post on that specific claim below.

2- Muhammad was not a murderer, he was an honorable messenger just as human as Jesus. He delivered the final testament, Quran.

3- Jesus was just a human prophet, his knowledge is not from him but from the "father" as he stressed in the bible. God is the only savior. i refer you to my website for more info. www.usn2161.net/Christianity.html
The real pagans are those who need a physical god to worship, e.g: a creature, a statue, a human being...etc

4- Quran is not the book that the terrorists follow, and ironically it is not the book that muslims follow even!. They follow satanic books called "Hadith" which are false sayings attributed to Muhammad, the equivelant of the man made Jewish Talmoud.

5- Do not be duped into idolizing Jesus when the man himself warned against attributing his knowledge to him instead of God alone.

Jesus said: "My doctrine is not my own; it comes from Him who sent me" ]John 7:16]

"...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to send, and Him you do not know. I know Him because it is from Him i come; He sent me." [John 7:28-29]

Quran [5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets. [5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.


6- Refrain from idolizing Jesus, it would be better for you.

-----------------------------------------

The moon god hoax (http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=148&forum=24&post_id=1666&PHPSESSID=a32fe45903657dd3dea20ec3f8b27188#forumpo st1666)

Peace,


I will here try to answer some of the questions as well as the disinformation, but i have to say that there will be no useless argument between me and you, as Satan thrives on the never-ending (I am better than he) conflicts.

So God willing, i will present the Truth, and whoever wishes to take heed, may God guide him or her. As for those who turn away, then i say "bear witness that i submit to the Lord of the universe ALONE".

1- 55132 quoted: "Allah in fact, was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters."


Let's see if that is true from the scripture claimed to be from "Allah" the moon-god !:

[59:24] He is the One GOD; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.


Well why would the moon-god say that EVERYTHING in the heavens and the earth glorify him ?

[6:102] Such is GOD your Lord, there is no god except He, the Creator of all things. You shall worship Him alone. He is in control of all things.

Why would the moon-god say that he is the CREATOR of all things ??


[22:18] Do you not realize that to GOD prostrates everyone in the heavens and the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the animals, and many people? Many others among the people are committed to doom. Whomever GOD shames, none will honor him. Everything is in accordance with GOD's will.


???

------------------------------------

2- 55312 quoted: "Given the amount of artifacts concerning the worship of this Moon-god, it is clear that this was the dominant religion in Sumeria."

I have no doubt that this could be very much a fact, since God mentioned many civilizations in His Quran that were annihilated because of worshipping (the visible) creatures instead of Him Alone. what would make the Sumerians any different that the Pharaons.


Satan's ministers of disinformation use tour inability to concentrate for a long time, to flood us with alot of INFO. then sudenly jump to the point (DISINFO.) they want us to accept! but if we reverence God, He will guide us to the Truth, and help us in seeing the Truth from falsehood,

55132 quoted: "Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates that the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon-god."


Let's try to find out what does "the moon-god!" say about these daughters in his alleged book:

[53:19] Compare this with the female idols Allaat and Al-`Uzzah.

[53:20] And Manaat, the third one.

[53:21] Do you have sons, while He has these as daughters?

[53:22] What a disgraceful distribution!

[53:23] These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. GOD never authorized such a blasphemy. They follow conjecture, and personal desire, when the true guidance has come to them herein from their Lord.

[53:24] What is it that the human being desires?

[53:25] To GOD belongs both the Hereafter, and this world.

[53:26] Not even the angels in heaven possess authority to intercede. The only ones permitted by GOD are those who act in accordance with His will and His approval.



From the above it is clear that the unforgivable sin of the Arabs before Muhammad was their idolizing (the alleged daughters of God) and thinking that by reverencing them, the idols could intercede on behalf of them.

In the last verse above, God warns that nobody and nothing can intercede, you are bound by your own works (no idol can help you on the day of judgment).

--------------------------------

3- Then 55132 quoted: "While they worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god."


Here is what i understand from Quran and history, the Arabs living around the Kabah (the shrine of God built by Abraham in ancient times), mixed two belief systems together.

While they claimed that they are following Abraham's footsteps and worshipping God, they also continued worshipping idols (that they may have inherited from the Sumerians) besides God. When Muhammad warned them against worshipping idols besides God, they persecuted him.

To trace this in the only proven book in the world, let's reflect upon the following:

1- Abraham warned his people (maybe the Sumerians) from worshipping idols beside God,

Abraham

[6:74] Recall that Abraham said to his father Azar, "How could you worship statues as gods? I see that you and your people have gone far astray."

[6:75] We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty:

[6:76] When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."

[6:77] When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."

[6:78] When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.

[6:79] "I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."

[6:80] His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about GOD, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed?

[6:81] "Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of GOD idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"

[6:82] Those who believe, and do not pollute their belief with idol worship, have deserved the perfect security, and they are truly guided.

[6:83] Such was our argument, with which we supported Abraham against his people. We exalt whomever we will to higher ranks. Your Lord is Most Wise, Omniscient.

[6:84] And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.

[6:85] Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.

[6:86] And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people.

[6:87] From among their ancestors, their descendants, and their siblings, we chose many, and we guided them in a straight path.

[6:88] Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.

[6:89] Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers.





I don't ask you for a wage, i give you the Truth from your only God, how could you deviate like Abraham's people and worship idols besides their Creator?. Jesus was no more than a righteous human messenger, why do you idolize a creature instead of God??


-------------------------------------------


The article mixes truth with falsehood, it is indeed a fact that the Arabs before Muhammad worshipped idols (they must have inherited this false belief from the Sumerians), but they also worshipped God (they inherited Monotheism from Abraham), they called God (Allaah) which means "God" or The god, in Arabic (Arabic is my mother-tongue by the way).



55312 quoted: ""Why is Allah never defined in the Qur'an? Why did Muhammad assume that the pagan Arabs already knew who Allah was?""

The main idea of "Submission" is the belief in the unseen. The test entails that only the truthful, only the sincere will FEEL that God is the only God with their hearts.

As for the wicked who are stuck in the visible illusion, they need a visible god, to worship him!

[2:1] A.L.M.
[2:1] This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;
[2:3] who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.


The Children of Israel fell in the same trap, they wanted to see God, out of having doubts,

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.





Reflect on this conversation between Moses and Pharaoh, the tyrant who didn't believe in the unseen, Pharaoh wanted a visible god to believe,


Moses

[26:23] Pharaoh said, "What is the Lord of the universe?"

[26:24]He said, "The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. You should be certain about this."

[26:25] He said to those around him, "Did you hear this?"

[26:26]He said, "Your Lord and the Lord of your ancestors."

[26:27] He said, "Your messenger who is sent to you is crazy."

[26:28]He said, "The Lord of the east and the west, and everything between them, if you understand."

[26:29] He said, "If you accept any god, other than me, I will throw you in the prison."

[26:30]He said, "What if I show you something profound?"

[26:31] He said, "Then produce it, if you are truthful."

[26:32]He then threw his staff, whereupon it became a profound snake.

[26:33]And he took out his hand, and it was white to the beholders.

[26:34] He said to the elders around him, "This is an experienced magician.

---------------------------------------

Conclusion:


The article is based on mere conjecture, and trying to jump to conclusions from archeological evidence,

1- Did the Arabs before Muhammad worship God, the same God of Abraham? Yes, they did.

2- Did they pollute and nullify their worship with worshippping idols (the daughters of god) besides Him? yes they did, and that's why Muhammad was persecuted when he warned them against idolatry.

3- Who built the Kabah in Mecca? Abraham and his son, Ismail did,

[2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.

4- Was Abraham Christian, or Jewish?

[3:67] Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist submitter. He never was an idol worshiper.

5- Did Abraham reverence saints, prophets or dead people?

[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper.

ephesians6
02-06-2005, 10:43 PM
You are a sinner Ahmad and you have broken God's commandments, and thus "the wages of sin is death." Even if a man has only sinned once in his life, he's under the judgment of God because God cannot allow sin or sinners who have broken His commandments into His presence.

You can't work or earn your way into paradise either, no matter how much you help the poor or feed the hungry. Sin = Separation from God

Ahmad if you died in the next hour your next destination would be eternal separation from God. Sinners cannot and will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, no matter how much false dogma they cling to.

You see Ahmad, what you believe means NOTHING---it's what Jesus said to us and did for us that means EVERYTHING. Men are easily deceived by Satan--I see the extent of your deception when I read your posts. You have rejected Christ's truth and so you will be rejected by Him.

You talk of some sort of pure koranic god that you follow but your god is a satanic illusion based upon half-truths, spiritual deceptions, and ancient evils. You are living proof of Biblical prophecy, "And in that day many will turn away from the truth and follow deceiving doctrines of demons."

Jesus Christ paid the price for the sins of the world--all we have to do is accept Him as our Savior and ask for forgiveness of our sins. If we ask for forgiveness He immediately forgets our sins and casts them into the depths of the sea.

Then you must Repent--that means to turn away from your old sinful ways and to follow Christ. Begin to live for Him and He will guide you in all your ways. You'll see spiritual truths revealed to you, miracles before your eyes and the Holy Spirit will dwell inside of you. (Nothing can equal the presence of Christ dwelling inside of us!)

"Pick up your cross and follow me," Jesus said.

"I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." Jesus Christ

There are no "other ways" Ahmad--and the road that you are now following will lead you into destruction.

"The road to destruction is wide and many follow it. But the path to salvation is narrow and few find it."

Ahmad
02-07-2005, 02:59 AM
If you are a real Christian you would follow Jesus's true message of GOD ALONE.

Why don't you follow your own book ?

Excerpts from : "The authroized english translation of Quran by the messenger of the covenant, Rashad Khalifa" (Appendix 22):


The Quran, informs us that Jesus was a human messenger of God whose sole mission was to deliver God's message; he never possessed any power, and is now dead (4:171, 5:75, 117).
Those who consider Jesus to be God, or Son of God, or part of a trinity are "pagans" (5:17, 72, 73). Outstanding Christian scholars have reached these same conclusions (THE MYTH OF GOD INCARNATE, John Hick, ed., The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977 & THE MYTH MAKER, Hyam Maccoby,Harper & Row 1986). Christianity is the product of Nicene (AD 325).

The Bible's Jesus

Jesus proclaimed aloud: ``Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; ..... For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.'' [ John 12:44-50 ]

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

Jesus said: ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me.'' [ John 7:16 ]

"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials. These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know."
[ Acts 2:22 ]

``...The man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life.''
[ John 5:24 ]

"Whoever welcomes me welcomes, not me, but him who sent me."
[ Matthew 10:40, Mark 9:37, Luke 9:48, & John 13:20 ]

``...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I come; he sent me.'' [ John 7:28-29 ]

Jesus looked up to heaven and said, ``...Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.'' [ John 17:1-3 ]

All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
[ Romans 8:14 ]

Jesus looked upward and said, ``Father, I thank you for having heard me. I know that you always hear me but I have said this for the sake of the crowd, that they may believe that you sent me.''
[ John 11:41-42 ]

As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, ``Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?'' Jesus answered, ``Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'' [ Mark 10:17-18 ]

``None of those who call me `Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
[ Matthew 7:21 ]

``...Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' '' [ John 20:17 ]

``God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[ Quran 3:51, 19:36, & 43:64 ]

Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that God is one in essence but three in ``person,'' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such,
appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ``Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one'' (Deut. 6:4).
[ Encyclopedia Britannica, 1975 ]

shatrani
02-07-2005, 07:02 AM
"3- Jesus was just a human prophet, his knowledge is not from him but from the "father" as he stressed in the bible."

I think you are wrong here. I apreciate your religion because its true but you even know what Jesus means for human being and what was His mission. not only to give us another religion. Buddha did that and wasnt Son Of God like Jesus.Thing twice and if you are not sure don't sustain it.
Thing deeper what was Jesus mission? Do you know what that it means for lift spiritual level and gave humanity a message: God is Love and put Love behind all you do , being very important if you want a true spiritual evolution. There isnt any spiritual evolution without love. I agree , islam is a true relligion with a true message keep it clean without many docmathic things. About that I am talking when I said about christian religion also. They put sometimes dogmas behind common sense and free will.
Jesus mission was to lift spiritual level because for those time. We think only with our human minds, but His mission was more vast about whole Universe, because God doesn't give that sign to stress a county and his people(Jews, I mean).
There are many true relligions on our Earth, but if you are on a spiritual way keep it clean because sometimes we lose the message and we are blind when we talking about forest because trees.
There was a awake true man who after he found God on a way said: Let's see where other relligions goes to? And he become to pray like an christain and all kind , read the Bible , pray a lot and where do you think he gone? Same "thing": in touch with God.Then he take islam -sufism path and goes to same "thing" also: in touch with God and many other religion ...His name? RamaKrishna- he was an awaken hidus guru.
My conclusion is: don't thing other religion isn't good for other people and don't think yours is best on this Earth. Proof it it is the best and find the finnal truth: God and be in touch with God all the time so other people on this Earth did it in them religion. We have true awaken people in all relligion that prove us all these are true.
There is a book calling:"Russian pilgrim" and there the hero had a famous spiritual evolution , but he prayed all the time.
Think , to have a spiritual life all the time don't give you time to think other religion isn't good. If you searching better and truth all rellgion have same message Find God . Where ? Deep inside you because He is there inside like outside He is. Because He let us inside divine sparkle- being part of Him. Because that we can find Him and be intouch with God.

Ahmad
02-07-2005, 09:33 AM
Peace Shatrani,

I don't know of any other way to say that, but it's not intended to belittle anyone, not the Jews nor the Christians or Muslims.

But the truth of the matter is, there was always one religion from the dawn of history. Abraham was the first to call it "Submission". This religion came from God on stages, Abraham delivered the religious duties, Moses delivered the old testament, Jesus in turn delivered the new testament and finally Muhammad delivered the final testament.

Thus we end up now with one proven book, Quran, and one religion, Submission and one god, God.

All the stages of Submission (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) have been sidetracked into a stage of arrested development. The Jews were required to believe Jesus and accept the updated scripture that confirms and supersedes their book. The Christians also were required to accept Muhammad and the updated version of Submission. The Muslims as well were required to accept Rashad Khalifa who delievered us the miracle of 19 (www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html) and purified the religion and restored it using this tool to its original pristine Abrahamic form.

So the conclusion is, Not all the ways lead to Rome. Wake up people and accept the one true religion of God alone. For God+Jesus won't be accepted, God+Muhammad won't either. God alone is the only acceptable faith on the day of judgment.

[3:18] GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

[3:19] The only religion approved by GOD is "Submission." Ironically, those who have received the scripture are the ones who dispute this fact, despite the knowledge they have received, due to jealousy. For such rejectors of GOD's revelations, GOD is most strict in reckoning.

crowneagle
02-07-2005, 02:43 PM
According to a source of first-hand information that I consider to be reliable, ETs and other civilizations do exist. After all, the universe is so vast and limitless, that assuming the earth to be the only place capable of sustaining human life sounds not only stupid but also arrogant. We've now entered a higher age in the cosmic time cycles, and one of the characteristics of this age is advancement in technology. Hence we'll see more and more discoveries of extrasolar planets supporting human life.

As far as "alien spaceships" are concerned, we have enough evidence of it from the ancient texts and scriptures. Here's some food for thought...

*************************************************

The Chinese Annals relate that Emperor Shun (2258-2208 B.C.) constructed not only a flying apparatus but even made a parachute about the same time Daedalus built his gliders.

Emperor Cheng Tang (1766 B.C.) ordered Ki-Kung-Shi to design a flying chariot. The latter completed the assignment and tested the aircraft in flight, reaching the province of Honan. Subsequently the vessel was destroyed by imperial edict as Cheng Tang was afraid the secret of its mechanism might fall into enemy hands. This implies that the Emperor and his sages must have had blueprints of this skyship.

The Chinese poet Chu Yuan (3rd Century B.C.) wrote of his flight in a jade chariot at a high altitude over the Gobi Desert towards the Kun Lun Mountains. He accurately described how the aircraft was unaffected by the winds and dust of the Gobi, and how he conducted an aerial survey.

In the early part of the fourth century Ko-Hung wrote about a helicopter in China: "Some have made flying cars with wood from the inner part of the jujube tree, using ox leather straps fastened to rotating blades to set the machine in motion."

The Sanskrit term 'vimana vidya' means 'the science of building and piloting airships'. Why would they use or need such a term?

The Indian classic 'Mahabharata', one of the oldest books in the world, speak of 'an aerial chariot with the sides of iron and clad with wings'. An aeroplane?

The Ramayana describes the 'vimana' as a double deck circular aircraft with portholes and a dome. It flew with the 'speed of the wind' and gave forth a 'melodious sound'. Now that sounds more advanced than the jets we see now - what were they? A pilot had to be well trained otherwise no vimana was placed in his hands. The vimana could stop and remain motionless in the sky. The ancient classic gives an account of how the vimana soared above the clouds - from that altitude 'the ocean looked like a small pool of water'. The aviator was able to see the ocean coast and deltas of rivers. The vimanas were kept in 'vimana griha' or hangars. They were propelled by a yellowish-white liquid and employed for warfare, travel or sport. One is amazed at the wealth of detail in this ancient tale and wonders what stimulated it - fantasy of the authors or actual memories and/or happenings?

In ancient India six young men constructed a dirigible airship - the Pantachantra contains the full story of the experiment. The machine was operated by a complex control system, providing a safe, fast flight and perfect manoeuvrability.

There are two categories of ancient Sanscrit texts - the factual records known as the Manusa and the mythical and religious literature known as the Daiva. The Samara Sutradhara, which belongs to the factual type of records, treats air travel from every angle. The book contains 230 stanzas about the construction of flying machines. It deals not only with take-off, cruising for thousands of kilometers, normal and forced landings, but even with possible collisions of aircraft with birds! The same source mentions the 'Samhara', a missile that crippled and the 'Moha', a weapon that produced a state of complete paralysis.

*************************************************

As discussed earlier, man's mind power is the blueprint for technology. The ancients knew how to directly harness the mind power and hence, "inventing" a new technology was an easy thing for them.

Here's another link that gives good information:

http://www.crystalinks.com/vedic.html

The Vedic texts also talk about visitations from Devas (benign) and Asuras (malevolent). Hence, both types of ETs seem to exist. The Bhavishya Purana indicates that this period will be ruled by the Asuras, who will do everything in their capacity for self-aggrandisement at the expense of other people's happiness. It also mentions that the rulers of the world will ruthlessly confiscate the property of the people (sounds very much like the NWO agenda).

The Devas have tremendous power, but this power is derived from being in alignment with the source and submission to the Creator. Hence, they use this power only to help other living beings, or else they know that this power will be lost. The Asuras also have a lot of power, which is derived from intense austerities, but they use this power for self-glorification at the expense of others. The Puranas are filled with stories of conflict between Devas and Asuras. In almost all cases, the Asuras gain power and ascendancy in the beginning, then the Devas meditate on the Creator, and with the help of the Creator, they eventually succeed in vanquishing the Asuras after a long battle.

I see the same thing happening in today's time too....it's no different. And the Devas will undoubtedly come out victorious in the end.

Anyone who develops "Asuric" (evil) qualities will attract Asuras to his side....after all, like attracts like. He will certainly be lured by the promise of quick rewards and self-aggrandizement. However, this type of quick self-aggrandizement takes place by causing harm to others, and hence will never last long. The law of karma operates with precision and eventually all the asuric people will be defeated.

On the other hand, anyone who develops "Devic" or spiritual qualities will attract Devas to his side. Such a person will have to fight a long battle and be persistent enough to go past the illusion of defeat that comes in the beginning (when the asuras achieve initial victory). But with enough patience, faith and persistence, a Devic person will always win in the end. And when such a person wins, his victory and rewards will be permanent and long-lasting.

Hence, regardless of what happens in the outside world, our ultimate fate eventually rests on us.

shatrani
02-07-2005, 03:33 PM
Yes you r right crowneagle,
In Bible there are some descriptions also about airships. And this is true because Aliens help us to be what we are now a human being like we are now. Many sources talking about aliens came on Earth. Enoch was a proof, he gone with an airspace.
Even other Christians will be mad abotu that , that its true. There are aliens on our Earth even we know or dont know. Little Gray are here and use us . Because some guys want to hide them intentions. They are hereand they are bad.Only us with return face on true way - to God, help us to lift in a high spiritual level.
There are in other plan a good guys looking for best on Earth this another vibration is calling Shambala and in thouch with our level. They help us to pass some diffficul times and they help us to lift in a high vibration (spiritual level). They know about little grey also but they work in spiritual level for high Earth vibration and in that way little gray cant support the high vibration and they will go far away because same vibration attract same vibration So we have same vibration with these bad guys. We have to work to change that . All in this Universe its energy and all vibrate and same vibration resonate on same level. So a high vibration give us an high spiritual level. How we will do that? Just pray and back to God. All religions are good for pray to God. Dont think if somebody dont pray and recognize Jesus is wrong. What is wong when you pray to God with love ? Hiduism have different faces of God ( 10 big comsical Powers-feminine part and Brahma Vishnu and Shiva - masculine part) But these are different faces for the Unique God .This is what other people don't know about hinduism. there are plenty siddhas in Tibet India , China all pray to God and most of them so in touch with God in different spiritual levels. Just think and come back to God . Think your religion is one of 100 on this Earth but all only God let them but all religions are tools to go home to God. Just to use them for our rescue and love God and being open for His love.

Saturnino
02-07-2005, 04:25 PM
get real,

I am not sure if people can or cannot "astral travel". It is possible that they can. However, when they do, they are totally vulnerable to demonic spirits and all kinds of tricks. After all, this is their realm.
How am I sure ? Hundreds of stories of people who have been there and ended up badly. Also, many people who converted to Christ after those experiences said that Jesus actually showed them the ugliness of those aliens, or spirit beings, or masters of light. After praying to God to reveal him the truth, a guy saw evil werewolf faces on the heads of their supposedly spirit guides.
Apparitions and ghosts come to Christians too, but they are usually driven away by a command in the name of Jesus. Why does it work 100% of times ? Because they fear Jesus like the devil fear the cross (pum intended). I know many people (including myself) who have been visited by those evil guys but got rid of them by claiming Jesus name.
I am getting somehow out of the subject here, but that was the only way to answer your question. If it quacks like a duck...must be a duck.

crowneagle
02-07-2005, 04:35 PM
Hi Shatrani:

Good post. Actually Shamballa seems to be a physical plane in the Himalayas at a certain location but in a different dimension. Hence, an airplane flying over it cannot see it. It is said that many of the advanced Yogis, Siddhas, Rishis, Fakirs, Tirthankars, Bodhisattvas and Christ-Saints live there. I also believe that it is the beings in this plane that commissioned for world-changing incarnations, such as Krishna, Buddha or Jesus.

As you had said, it is also true that the current spiritual vibratory level in this planet is dense and negative. Hence, a continuous effort is required to keep our consciousness at a high level. Or else, it will simply slide towards the "default" level, which unfortunately is very negative.

I do not know much about aliens already here on earth, but I'm aware that many asuras incarnate in human form, create a mask of benevolence hiding their ulterior motive of global domination. Perhaps the "grays" are such asuras. The Puranas mention that the world is currently ruled by a few asura families, so that doesn't surprise me at all. But they will all be defeated in the end by the benign forces.

All true religions in the world are corrupted by asuric forces, hence we find too much of distortion. I like the insight of Dr. Rudolph Steiner, who talks about the "Ahrimanization" of religion. The purpose of religion to enable the person to get closer to the Source and become aligned with the source. This can be accomplished in many ways; hence we have many paths. Outer forms are not as important as the true essence. However, the agenda of the asuric forces is to deter man from going within and mistake the asuric forces to be "divine". This is exactly how the asuras prey on the human beings by sucking up their psychic energy. It's very much like the machines perpetually deriving energy from humans in the movie "matrix".

A person's vital essence (Ojas in Sanskrit) is a most powerful source of psychic energy, and the media is a very effective tool for inducing the humans to dissipate it. Everytime the vital essence is lost, the energy contained in it automatically goes to the asuric parasites. This has now become an everyday affair and that's exactly how the asuras keep people perpetually under control and tied to the Ahrimanic grossness of the physical plane. On the other hand, when one makes an effort to conserve the vital essence, he attracts the good devic forces to his side. With enough patience, faith and persistence, he gets access to a source of benign power that will back him up, when the asuric forces attack him. The ultimate victory will always be that of the Devic forces, and this is the good news that all of us should remember.

P.S. By the way, what made you choose the name "Shatrani"? It's actually a Sanskrit word that means a "female warrior" (the feminine form of the word "Kshatriya" or "Shatriya", which means a warrior) :-)

Saturnino
02-07-2005, 04:36 PM
Home away from home,

I am familiar with Teslas work. It seems he was in a direction that would lead to break thru discoveries but was ripped off good by the government, Edison, etc.
It is possible that there is some kind of technology we dont understand. (Haarp, scalar weapons) It is possible that some of the UFOs are toys that fly without wings. But the methaphysical, moral, consequences of the UFO phenomena would still be the same.

When electricity was discovered, it was regarded as just one more aspect of nature that we could understand. IF we discover anti-gravity, or ray guns, or even this x-ray vision that this guy said he discovered this month, it will be the same. It is not a necessity that aliens taught that to us !

However, we must consider the MANY fake tricks that demons have been playing with us...spiritual surgery where they remove a big spider from your tummy, ectoplasm, ghosts, etc. It is here for anyone to see. Just come to Brazil one day. In the US those things also happen, but in the basement of magicians and satanists. And yes, it is demonic because ALWAYS there comes a time when the follower of these things is asked to pleadgealliance to the ugly beast.

Einstein didnt do anything for me, it is just a silly picture to put in the forums.

Saturnino
02-07-2005, 04:45 PM
Shatrani,

The Bible tells us that demons are just angels that followed Satan in rebellion. They must obey their master and they do it until today.
The Christian view is that there is no middle ground. Jesus said that Satan is the Lord of this world, but victory is granted to those who seek protection in Christ.

Facing demons without this protection is a recipe for disaster. You will get beaten up and naked, like those guys in the Bible. However, you can go to hundreds of churches where demons are cast away from people in name of Jesus. They cant be ALL neurotic. The demons also express knowledge of things that are supernatural...they are not an invention from a psychologically sick mind.

This thread reminds me of the case of a German lady who went to a candomble session in Bahia, to watch a culturally rich experience...when the spirits were called, she fell face first on the floor and started to shake, possessed. In First World countries, people are still very materialistic minded... Without the protection of Jesus, anyone is easy pray for demons. Sometimes nothing happens because people outside of Christ is no threat to them, so they let them be...they say that themselves.





shatrani wrote:
And now about demons. They aren't entities with phisical body. They live in other plan(low level , low vibration).
They are satan's assistances, but they never resist around a human being with high vibration or things with high vibration(like: cross,incense or other divination things). They are tools without free will . They go where are atractted by low and dirty energy (vibration).They are tools because God use them to tempt us to see if we understand our lessons here on Earth. An spiritual human being are in touch with light (with God ) and these creatures(demons) hate the light. Demons listen and afraid when a spiritual human being is around. There are some practices in Tibet using by spiritual people - they use some kind of creatures because demons haven't free will and they go and they do what somebody asks them. Yes, I agree, sounds scareing for who doesn't knows about spiritual power and how to use it in positive sense only to help people to guide people on light way.
We are tempt by demons in every moment. Think twice when you smoke a ciggarette-you feed a demon. See how easy is it to be in touch with them? Think positive , keep you clen (body, mind ) and be in touch with God and never demons should be around. But this way is a little bit hard for many people. But this is the way, this is the target and opposite with Freemasons target. Be free and be in touch with light!

Saturnino
02-07-2005, 04:52 PM
Ephesians6: you are WAY out of line.

Ahmad: I respect your sincerity and faithfulness but, as a Christian, I have to say that we believe Jesus was fully human and fully God. Trinity means that God is one, but is expressed in three persons: Son (Jesus), Father and Holy Ghost, so no idolatry here.

Islam and Christianity are VERY different in theological sense. Maybe we could find some understanding in the similarities, like morals, ethics and abhorrence of paganism and magic.

PS: Let us go back to the UFO subject ?

nomad
02-07-2005, 07:27 PM
Saturnino wrote:

Einstein didnt do anything for me, it is just a silly picture to put in the forums.

Nice to hear the truth about this dimwit that

who is sold to the world as a genius and I as a

Jew fell for this NWO brainwashing real good and

I was going to then start brainwashing my kids ...

I now know better thanks to the internet.

madkhao
02-07-2005, 10:59 PM
A very interesting read on demons/fallen angels
It's long but worth reading.
The time is coming when they will pose as aliens
scare people into believing the world will face destruction if they don't do something. (global warming/mark of the beast?)

http://english.sdaglobal.org/testimony/supnatr.htm

Ahmad
02-08-2005, 04:46 AM
Peace Saturnino,

If you accept your parent's religion without questioning it, you would be hurting your soul.

you said:
"as a Christian, I have to say that we believe Jesus was fully human and fully God. Trinity means that God is one, but is expressed in three persons: Son (Jesus), Father and Holy Ghost, so no idolatry here."


1- how could Jesus be a creature and a creator in the same time?

2- If God is one, and Jesus is a different entity, how could Jesus be a God?

3- If God is one but expressed in three persons, why did Jesus relate all his knowledge to that God, and stressed on this fact time and time again in the bible. And how could a part of god implore another part of the same god?

No insult intended, just trying to confront the vague areas.

Vlad
02-08-2005, 05:10 AM
Peace, Ahmad.

It is dogma to us: something that you take and believe like is being told: One in Three, Three in One, the Christ’s double nature (divine and human at the same time). Our limited minds cannot understand “how come”. We take it for granted and believe me, it's not that hard to believe!

For a kind of a “terrestrial” explanation, I give you the following quotation from G.K. Chesterton’s great book “Orthodoxy”:

“If we take any other doctrine that has been called old-fashioned we shall find the case the same. It is the same, for instance, in the deep matter of the Trinity. Unitarians (a sect never to be mentioned without a special respect for their distinguished intellectual dignity and high intellectual honour) are often reformers by the accident that throws so many small sects into such an attitude. But there is nothing in the least liberal or akin to reform in the substitution of pure monotheism for the Trinity. The complex God of the Athanasian Creed may be an enigma for the intellect; but He is far less likely to gather the mystery and cruelty of a Sultan than the lonely god of Omar or Mahomet. The god who is a mere awful unity is not only a king but an Eastern king. The HEART of humanity, especially of European humanity, is certainly much more satisfied by the strange hints and symbols that gather round the Trinitarian idea, the image of a council at which mercy pleads as well as justice, the conception of a sort of liberty and variety existing even in the inmost chamber of the world. For Western religion has always felt keenly the idea "it is not well for man to be alone." The social instinct asserted itself everywhere as when the Eastern idea of hermits was practically expelled by the Western idea of monks. So even asceticism became brotherly; and the Trappists were sociable even when they were silent. If this love of a living complexity be our test, it is certainly healthier to have the Trinitarian religion than the Unitarian. For to us Trinitarians (if I may say it with reverence)—to us God Himself is a society. It is indeed a fathomless mystery of theology, and even if I were theologian enough to deal with it directly, it would not be relevant to do so here. Suffice it to say here that this triple enigma is as comforting as wine and open as an English fireside; that this thing that bewilders the intellect utterly quiets the heart: but out of the desert, from the dry places and the dreadful suns, come the cruel children of the lonely God; the real Unitarians who with scimitar in hand have laid waste the world. For it is not well for God to be alone.”

Ahmad
02-08-2005, 06:34 AM
Peace Vlad,

I have some remarks on the article you quoted, which i find more mysterious than the idea of "trinity" itself.

1- "For Western religion has always felt keenly the idea "it is not well for man to be alone." "

Indeed man cannot survive alone because he is imperfect, meaning he is totally dependent on his creator. But this can't apply to the Creator Himself, because He is self sufficient.

1- "The complex God of the Athanasian Creed may be an enigma for the intellect; but He is far less likely to gather the mystery and cruelty of a Sultan than the lonely god of Omar or Mahomet."


Well, that's a very broad claim without giving any intellectual proof to back it!. why would the lonely god of Mahmot be cruel?

2- "the image of a council at which mercy pleads as well as justice"

Why would God who is the only perfect self sufficient being be in need for consultation? and with whom? the idea of a council entails different entities with different opinions who after due consultation reach a unanimous decision. This very idea needs a group of gods, not one god!. so the author clearly means more than one god negotiating with each other before judging. Now if that's true and there are more than one god, which one of them did create us, the human beings? and if everyone of them created some of us, how would you explain the unity and perfect harmony of the creation?. Wouldn't they eventually separate, each with his own creation? why this never happened?

[17:42] Say, "If there were any other gods beside Him, as they claim, they would have tried to overthrow the Possessor of the throne."

[17:43] Be He glorified, He is much too exalted, far above their utterances.

[17:44] Glorifying Him are the seven universes, the earth, and everyone in them. There is nothing that does not glorify Him, but you do not understand their glorification. He is Clement, Forgiver.

3- "If this love of a living complexity be our test, it is certainly healthier to have the Trinitarian religion than the Unitarian."

Why would anyone love a complex, inunderstandable idea? and what kind of security would be gained from such vagueness?. The author keeps praising the mystery and benefits of trinitarian religion, yet never backs it with any intellectual argument! why?. Do youthink God would create us without the means to decipher the truth? if our minds are not capable of reaching the truth, why did God create them anyway?. "Mystery" and the love of it is the easy way out from confronting our dillemmas.

4- "even if I were theologian enough to deal with it directly, it would not be relevant to do so here."

At least he is truthful for once, he admits that he CAN NOT explain the very idea he praises! why then does he expect anybody to believe it?

5- "Suffice it to say here that this triple enigma is as comforting as wine and open as an English fireside; that this thing that bewilders the intellect utterly quiets the heart: but out of the desert, from the dry places and the dreadful suns, come the cruel children of the lonely God; the real Unitarians who with scimitar in hand have laid waste the world. For it is not well for God to be alone.”

I can't imagine such a vague argument to be sufficient for anyone, except those who AVOID the truth. As for the truthseekers, they can't extinguish the burning thirst in their hearts with such an ambiguity. Indeed, wine is the perfect distraction for those who avoid the truth, what a relief, it is the same as escaping to the fantasy world of video games, porno and the movies. A real human being would CONFRONT his worst mysteries, before they confront him when it's too late.
How wonderful to relate the trinitarian dogma with a vague realm of no right and wrong, and the unitarian one with a sword which blade separates the truth from falsehood, it is indeed true. And it is also true that the author has revealed his real conviction at the end, that man is god.


"it is not well for man to be alone."
"For it is not well for God to be alone."

-------------------------------------------
[7:172] Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves: "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."

[7:173] Nor can you say, "It was our parents who practiced idolatry, and we simply followed in their footsteps. Will You punish us because of what others have innovated?"

[7:174] We thus explain the revelations, to enable the people to redeem themselves.

------------------------------------

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Vlad
02-08-2005, 07:18 AM
Peace. If One would have been self-suficient, he would have never created anything. But One's main characteristic is Love. This is why One needed the other Persons and persons.

More tomorrow, please excuse me, I have to get home!

Ahmad
02-08-2005, 08:05 AM
[35:15] O people, you are the ones who need GOD, while GOD is in no need of anyone, the Most Praiseworthy.

shadowman
02-08-2005, 08:17 AM
Ahmad wrote:
[35:15] O people, you are the ones who need GOD, while GOD is in no need of anyone, the Most Praiseworthy.

I guess your god likes to play games. Doesn't need us? Then what the f--- get to be worshipped and prayed to?

Draken
02-13-2005, 09:25 AM
"I was a hidden treasure wanting to be known, so I manifested creation so as to be known."

Saturnino
02-22-2005, 05:27 PM
Hi Ahmad,

Jesus was God from the beginning. In fact, the Bible says all things were made and are sustained by Him. Nobody could explain how God is one but manifested in three persons, but this is what is clear from the Bible. There are mysteries that only God understands, and this is one of them. This notion is so far above our understanding that we have to accept by faith what Jesus taught about it.
When Jesus came to earth, he was not created, for that would be impossible. He just came to live with us in a human body, living a perfect life without sin and becoming the perfect sacrifice to pay for the sins of men. Before that, He was in perfect union with the Father and the Spirit, and maintained communion while on earth thru prayer and obedience to the will of the Father. In Him, however, all the fullness of God was manifested. He never ceased to be God. The 3 persons of Trinity are totally in harmony in purpose, action and glory, so when you know Jesus, you get to know God in totality.
The Holy Spirit is also one of the persons of God and was sent as the consolator to inhabit the hearts of those who believe.

Since Muslims believe in Genesis, you can check:

1) Gen 1:1 - the Hebrew word for God is Elohim. This is a plural noun, but the verb is singular. This teaches that there is one God in a plurality.

2) Gen 1:26 - again God is spoken in plural, Elohim, but we know that God is one from other passages like De 6:4.

3) Gen 11: 7,8 - again God is spoken in plural and singular at the same time.


As someone said, if you try to understand the Trinity, you lose your mind, if you don`t believe in it, you lose your soul.

AISB_Watch
02-22-2005, 11:08 PM
Signs From Heaven (http://www.4acloserlook.com/Signs%20From%20Heaven.pdf), by Bishop Seraphim Rose

UFOs & the Cult of ET: The Phantasmagorical Manipulation (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/UFOs_Aliens_Contactees.htm), by Terry Melanson

Spotlight on UFOs: Are Aliens Demons? (http://web.archive.org/web/20030320045614/http://www.nappaland.com/Nappaland-dot-com/Magazine+Archive+pages/Spotlight+on+UFOs.htm), by Jeffrey Scott

UFOs, the Antichrist & the New World Order (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5977/gord/ufo.html), by Gord Tong

UFO-Alien Abduction Phenomenon (http://www.ldolphin.org/unruh/alien/aliens.html), by Tim Unruh

UFO's: The Shattering Assault (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/ufo-assault.htm), by Father Alexey Young

The Secret Commonwealth of Elves Fauns & Fairies (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/past.html), by Terry Melanson

Demons in Alien's Clothing (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/demons_aliens_clothes.htm), by Ron Patton

A Brief Account Of The True Nature Of The 'UFO Entities' (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/UFO_Entities.htm), by Gordon Creighton

Ritual Magic, Mind Control and the UFO Phenomenon (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/UFO_Ritual_Magic.htm), by Adam Gorightly

get_real
02-23-2005, 07:09 AM
Hello AISB:
Have read some of these a while back. Very interesting. However, I would like to ask you about Betty and Barney Hill, and whether or not these are 'sealed' records. It seems that this case has great significance. I'm not saying other cases don't hold any water, but... with this case there seemed to be a definite "hush hush", unlike any other case. They gave us some info via the press, but...
Have there been any updates of info, from surviving family members, or friends of Betty and Barney sharing some info they had received, other than what we think we know from the media.
I couldn't find anything of lately on the internet, didn't know if any book(s) (of recent) on UFO's highlights Betty and Barney.
Can you share?

AISB_Watch
02-23-2005, 11:01 AM
get_real wrote:
Hello AISB:
Have read some of these a while back. Very interesting. However, I would like to ask you about Betty and Barney Hill, and whether or not these are 'sealed' records. It seems that this case has great significance. I'm not saying other cases don't hold any water, but... with this case there seemed to be a definite "hush hush", unlike any other case. They gave us some info via the press, but...
Have there been any updates of info, from surviving family members, or friends of Betty and Barney sharing some info they had received, other than what we think we know from the media.
I couldn't find anything of lately on the internet, didn't know if any book(s) (of recent) on UFO's highlights Betty and Barney.
Can you share?

I'm no expert on the Hill case but as far as I know there's no sealed records or anything hidden about it. The best book on the case, The Interrupted Journey (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567311342/ref=ase_conspiracyarc-20/104-8924776-1297547?v=glance&s=books) has all the details about the investigation and even the hypnosis transcripts. Here's a link to Betty's last interview before she died (http://www.capital.net/com/phuston/bettyhill.HTML), I think.