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Thumper
09-12-2005, 02:07 PM
Any special reason?? and why not North Africa, or the middle east, or china, or Japan??

freeman
09-12-2005, 04:06 PM
On the basis of what I have recently learned, I would have to say that the answer pertains to the location of the Ashkenzai Jewish (Khazer) empire.

nomad
09-12-2005, 06:38 PM
freeman wrote:
On the basis of what I have recently learned, I would have to say that the answer pertains to the location of the Ashkenzai Jewish (Khazer) empire.

Yup, and the seed of the Hebrew slaves

fulfilled their destiny of being Masters of all.

09-12-2005, 07:08 PM
This is where the seeds were planted?

09-12-2005, 07:11 PM
What do you know about Bohemia?

"Where it all began."

55132
09-12-2005, 08:44 PM
Don't give the kazar and askenazi more credit than they deserve.

Before the greeks dominated; all the world super powers where asian or middle eastern, until the israelites where taken in captivity into what is now iraq and iran formerly know as babilonia.

2 hundred years later you would note the decline of the eastern world as a power center.(i wonder why)

When the jews had destroyed the asian powers, they set there sites toward the west toward rome then spain (Spain had the good sense of getting rid of them and they eventualy arrived in england where they have been since then.

These isralites decendants of those that where taken into captivity where neither kazar nor askenazi they where pure isralites that had accepted satan as there god and the kabala as there guide. The askenazi are mostly kazarian and the kazarian are pagan converts of satanic jewdaism.

They have been in hold in europe as they did in asia and will let go when there is nothing of value to them, then maybe china.

There succes has more to do with there acceptence of satan as there god than with any overstated inteligence they might have.

(You will notice that world power has been on a continious shift to the west since antiquity) and the jews following behind. (not leading) as always

Draken
09-13-2005, 02:44 AM
Another example of 55132's point is the captivity of the Israelites in Ancient Egypt and their subsequent, gradual infiltration of Egyptian society, to the point when Joseph became the grand vizier of the Pharaoh at the time (can't remember who). Eventually, the Israelites took over their masters' religion and became even more "Egyptian" and if you can use the word, fanatic in their beliefs than the Egyptians. This resulted in the Israelites' usurpation of the throne and became the period of the Hyksos Kings of Egypt.

This lasted for some time (a few hundred years, can't really remember this detail either) until the Egyptians threw out the Israelites and took back their throne and reinstated the true Pharaoh and his bloodline.

I read this about 10 years ago, so forgive the inaccuracy of detail. ;-)

Interesting though, to view history in this, much wider perspective; one sees certain patterns much clearer, like the ejection of the Israelites from all civilizations they have infiltrated, sucked and bled dry.

freeman
09-13-2005, 05:48 AM
Interesting though, to view history in this, much wider perspective; one sees certain patterns much clearer, like the ejection of the Israelites from all civilizations they have infiltrated, sucked and bled dry.

Why such an ignominious legacy for "God's chosen people"?

Saturnino
09-13-2005, 05:54 AM
The answer is simple: Europe has been the center of world power for 2,000 years. It has nothing to do with Jews.

nomad
09-13-2005, 06:10 AM
freeman wrote:
Interesting though, to view history in this, much wider perspective; one sees certain patterns much clearer, like the ejection of the Israelites from all civilizations they have infiltrated, sucked and bled dry.

Why such an ignominious legacy for "God's chosen people"?

Sucked and bled dry every civilisation OR

OUTSMARTED every civilisation it encountered ...

are the 2 ways of looking at this.

Draken
09-13-2005, 07:38 AM
Certainly, nomad.

The current situation is that the Zionist/Khazars are very race-conscious and try to foster a self-knowledge and awareness of race within their own race, while trying to deny this self-awareness and knowledge of race in other races, via indoctrination, disinformation, propaganda and outright lies.

My growing suspicion and realization is that the race issue in general is key to understanding history and its obscure, underlying currents of power. They are only obscure if one doesn't include the factor of race.

Truth is, there are racial diffences bewteen different people. Differences in mentality, attitude, spirituality, psychic abilities and leanings, etc. Nobody can say there's no difference between a Chinese person and a Bushman from the Serengeti Plain.
The differences lie in every aspect of their being, from the physical to the mental, psychic and spiritual.

This is by no means saying that there's a value attached to belonging to this or that race. It's just a fact, a truth, without relative value.

Coming back to the point, I think that one of the characteristics of this present age we live in, The Iron Age or Kali Yuga - being an age of dissolution, disintegration, destruction and degeneration - is ability of one race to prosper on all other people's expense.
This might be a hard thing to say about a whole people. But again, I try not to attach any relative value to this fact. We all seem to agree this particular type of people, namely the Khazar converts to Judaism, but more to the point, converts to the Kabbalah, really DO rule the world today, via their use (abuse?) of Magic; turning it into Black Magic.

Looking around us we see the effects everywhere of that abuse of Magic. Somehow, I think the false doctrine of the Equality Between Races - propagated by the race MOST fanatical about keeping their race pure - lies at the very heart of this issue.

One has to have a certain leaning towards the desire to use occult power for personal gain, which I believe we see the evidence of all around us. Conversely, I believe one can definately use the same occult power for the spiritual benefit of many, instead of just a few. This occult (meaning HIDDEN, once and for all!) power seems at present to be in the hands of evil, spiritually degenerated people, and they do anything in their power to hide the source of it, from us. It's a sad fact that most Westerners live far below their intellectual, spiritual level, having lost all connection to their Divine Self. This is to a large part due to the corruption of their souls, the degeneration of their spirit by these Black Magicians.

The fact the Magical Powers are in the hands of spiritually corrupted people is another sign of the times.

freeman
09-13-2005, 07:58 AM
We all seem to agree this particular type of people, namely the Khazar converts to Judaism, but more to the point, converts to the Kabbalah, really DO rule the world today, via their use (abuse?) of Magic; turning it into Black Magic.

At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton on trial...define magic.

nomad
09-13-2005, 08:47 AM
freeman wrote:
We all seem to agree this particular type of people, namely the Khazar converts to Judaism, but more to the point, converts to the Kabbalah, really DO rule the world today, via their use (abuse?) of Magic; turning it into Black Magic.

At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton on trial...define magic.


Excellent question ... please define " magic "

psholtz
09-13-2005, 09:15 AM
BlueAngel wrote:
What do you know about Bohemia?

"Where it all began."
That's interesting.. I've never heard that before.

How is Bohemia where it all began?

Draken
09-13-2005, 10:23 AM
Hehe. I knew this would lead to questions.

First things first though. Psholtz, Bohemia is where the Illuminati first appeared officially, in the form of the secret society founded by Adam Weishaupt.

Concerning magic - it's much more tricky.

All so-called secret knowledge of all genuine traditions contain certain ambivalent or obscure references to disciplines like alchemy or metaphysics. Kabbalah is one such occult tradition. There are many others, like Sufism, which makes use of very similar, and in some cases identical, symbology as the Kabbalah does, or Zen Buddhism, The Tao-Te-Ching or - in the Western traditions - Mithraism, Hermeticism, and such.

These doctrines make use of certain physical, mental, psychic and spiritual excercises to induce a higher level of consciousness, which then would give them the power of acting on the world as if by "magic". Really, one shouldn't even use the word 'magic' because of the total and absolute corruption of it through the New Age movement and its various manifestations, like fantasy and science fiction, Wicca and Witchcraft, etc.

These have NOTHING in common with the esoteric ("inner", as opposed to exoteric, meaning "outer") teachings of traditional wisdom I mentioned above.

I'll quote from Michael A. Hoffman's book Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare:

"Aleister Crowley, in a statement to OTO initiates concerning one of his books, describes the underlying epistemology behind the glamor and enchantment which causes the occult con-game to become weird reality we inhabit in America today: 'In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

Now, by quoting one of the most evil men who ever lived on this Earth, I'm not saying I'm an adherent to Crowley. On the contrary. But what he had deep knowledge about was Black Magic; how to "do certain things" so that "certain" WANTED "results" followed.

As I understand it, what made Crowley evil was not the "tools" he used. He had given in to his Ego (in my opinion Ego equals Satan, as I've stated elsewhere on this forum) and let it take over his whole being. THAT'S what made him evil. The "tools" are there for anyone to use - unfortunately! - and it seems our times are characterized, among many things, by the fact that this power is in the wrong hands.

By no means is this possibility of power only for evil people; very much the opposite is true: it is MEANT to be used by the RIGHT people FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL. This means the RIGHT people need to harness this wisdom and take it BACK from those degenerate, spiritually corrupted people usurping that power today for their own dark purposes.

psholtz
09-13-2005, 10:40 AM
First things first though. Psholtz, Bohemia is where the Illuminati first appeared officially, in the form of the secret society founded by Adam Weishaupt.
I think you're confusing Bavaria w/ Bohemia.. :-P

freeman
09-13-2005, 11:30 AM
Are you saying that this occult magic is largely like hypnosis? Institute on another thread describes Hitler as one of the greatest magicians who ever lived. The only analogy I can derive from that is that Hitler seemed to be able to almost hypnotize his followers into unwavering fealty.

Marsali
09-13-2005, 12:51 PM
Freeman's question is a good one, asking if occult majic is largely like hypnosis.

I've a question or two for Draken also. Who, exactly, are the RIGHT people who need to harness this wisdom? I don't suppose they'd have something to do with the study and devotion to White majic, and also to one (or more) of the Ascended Masters, would they?

I think, Draken, that you know just what it was that 'enabled Hitler to hypnotise his followers into unwavering fealty.' Why don't you go ahead and explain to these good folks just how this works.

Thumper
09-13-2005, 03:53 PM
Say, we always hear about the British illuminati, but the are the Germans and French still prevalent today?

http://pichold.com/Images/Smilies/wiggle.gif

Draken
09-13-2005, 04:36 PM
My mistake, psholtz. Bavaria it is! :oops:

Marsali, I've talked about this on several other topics on CC.

Look, I'll make it easy for you. I'll quote myself out of context. If you're interested you can check out the <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=677&forum=3&post_id=14733&PHPSESSID=0bd5b102eaac51938372b207d21bffe3#forumpo st14733">thread</a> from which I took it.

I suppose I'm talking about an elite, but definately not of the FINANCIAL type we have today. There are of course other - REAL - elites of a totally different kind.

Being rich doesn't make you a ruler. You're just rich, but have no idea about justice, truth, humility, etc.; no idea about Higher Principles a real, true Ruler is supposed to EMBODY, to manifest to the people, who would look up to a ruler like that. The people would get an example of honesty, humility, strength of spirit&mind, justice.

Of course there is an elite. But it's a totally different from what people think of when they hear the word "elite".
Everyone has at some point met a person who you simply listen to and not question, because you KNOW they know more than you and you would want to LEARN as much as that person is willing to share. You simply know this person is ABOVE you, in wisdom, knowledge, insight and spirit.

This is a person of the true elite.

It might be a farmer, a priest, a singing teacher, a friend, a relative, freind of the family - whoever. It might even be a down-and-out. You just have to look where you don't expect to find them. Today's "ruler" is nothing but a USURPER.

AND:

If you read Plato's Republic he says there that this true elite has to be forced to rule, since if they had the choice they wouldn't WANT to rule; worldly power is not important to them, they know that's not what human existence is all about.

But if THEY don't take the responsibility to rule themselves, everyone will suffer at the hand of the lesser people, not capable of ruling, simply not being on the mental, spiritual level one has to be on.

True rulers are NATURAL rulers, around whom everyone naturally form societies, cities, nations.

I don't necessarily agree with everything Plato says, but when it comes to tyranny - as the political system it is, with no value attached! - he says is higher standing than democracy. Tyranny is just a form where one person is at the apex of the society, building a bridge (pontifex) between Heaven and Earth, that is God and Man.

If the 'tyrannos' (ruler, dictator) is of the type I described would be MEANT to rule, truly BORN to rule, then that's a society I'd gladly live in and be that ruler's subject.

But if that "ruler" is a ruler thanks to his WEALTH -

Fuck off. Excuse my French.

As for your somewhat "challenging" request:

I think, Draken, that you know just what it was that 'enabled Hitler to hypnotise his followers into unwavering fealty.' Why don't you go ahead and explain to these good folks just how this works.

and "Ascended Masters", I have no idea what you're talking about.

There are other posts I've written about this issue of spiritual superiority, but I have no time right now.

Maybe later, if we can have a civilized discussion without degrading insinuations or accusations of the "he's a Freemason/evil person/Satanist/occultist - I KNEW it!!!"-type, of which I'm thoroughly tired of.;-)

Marsali
09-13-2005, 04:54 PM
I don't believe that you're a satanist or evil person, Draken; far from it. But you've evaded my questions.

Saturnino
09-13-2005, 06:40 PM
The power of magic is an illusion. the moment you get involved in it, you become the slave of demons. In the long run, they control what you do and what you say. In the short term, there may be some advantages, but they are not worthwhile, even if you don`t believe you will lose your soul because of it. For each powerful Anthony LaVey, there are thousands of poor bastards who just freak out, become suicidal or crazy. I knew several.

freeman
09-13-2005, 07:28 PM
I agree, Saturnino. Now I remember all about this "Ascended Masters" gibberish:

The Ascended Masters (http://www.diakrisis.org/ascended_masters.htm)

09-13-2005, 07:40 PM
Do you know why their playground is called "Bohemia Grove?

freeman
09-13-2005, 09:53 PM
Do you know why their playground is called "Bohemia Grove?

No. Other than the libertine connotations of the name.

President Richard M. Nixon: "The Bohemian Grove -- which I attend, from time to time -- it is the most faggy goddamned thing you could ever imagine, with that San Francisco crowd. I can't shake hands with anybody from San Francisco."

nohope187
09-13-2005, 10:16 PM
freeman wrote:
I agree, Saturnino. Now I remember all about this "Ascended Masters" gibberish:

The Ascended Masters (http://www.diakrisis.org/ascended_masters.htm)Refering to that Hitler stuff, he was involved in the occult. So it makes sense that he might of been possessed which would also explain his power of commanding fealty just from spoken word.

truebeliever
09-13-2005, 10:32 PM
...Hitler as the greatest magicians who ever lived. The only analogy I can derive from that is that Hitler seemed to be able to almost hypnotize his followers into unwavering fealty.

Rommel called this "the sunshine cure".

Younger line officers were often sent to Hitler to give him "the facts" on the front line condition. Hitler despised the Prussian Officer Corp so decorated line officers were often sent to "give the old man" the truth.

Sure enough, time after time, these Captains and Colonol's returned to their division commanders full of fight and ready to win the war once again. All thanx to an Adolph pep talk.

Hitler was an optimist at heart and loved a "cause". Especially a lost one. As Aries types do. He also had an ability to think strategically and tactically down to tiny details and would impress his audience with his grasp of ALL area's of the war. It also helped that he was, after 1943, completely off his tits on Meth most of the time...full of beans and "shining eyes".

Hitler was not "into" the occult as such. He was, i believe, a rationalist who often said..."i cannot overstate the importence of my own intellect". His religion was his cause...turning Europe into the center of world culture and art. For that he believed he was divinely chosen...maybe he was.

Hitler would fit into the Pentagon beautifully today and get on well with the likes of Thomas Barnett.

I wonder about the stories of the deeply ingrained use of "occult" practices in NAZI ideology. Pagan to be sure...but occult in the sense of what it's used here?

truebeliever
09-13-2005, 10:45 PM
By accusing Hitler of being somehow influenced by the Occult...we diminish the man into, yet again...another caricature other than what he was.

He was a leader of men.

He was brave and modest.

He was highly intelligent and artistic.

He took on EVERYONE and very nearly won! Without gigantic treason from within...Hitler had the war won.

What guts! And he looked after his people!

Dont think I am some Ultra Right Wing NAZI lover...Hitler was no angel. But by the standards of the day, minus the ridiculous lies about him, he was a great leader...because...he WAS.

Nothing more and nothing less.

EVERYONE who met him described him as polite, quietly spoken and caring of their needs and current situation. Watch the doco on Trudle Junge his secretary, "Blind Spot: Hitlers Secretary". It's what the docudrama "Der Untergang" or "Downfall" is based on.

So what are we to believe of him? History is written by the victors. The same people who created and supported a murderous, Godless tyranny called Communism. Responsable for more mysery and murder than ANY system in human history.

nohope187
09-13-2005, 10:54 PM
Yeah, you're right about the meth. If PCP gives people super strength, maybe the meth enhanced is intellect and style of ellocution.

09-13-2005, 11:59 PM
So then, TB, tell us how you really feel about HITLER.

You are giving this man a pat on the back.

WHY?

Did he not know that his men were slaughtering JEWS?

Draken
09-14-2005, 01:28 AM
You could call it a pre-emptive strike, Marsali. Nothing personal. I've just been accused once too often here on CC. ;-)

Your first question was: Who, exactly, are the RIGHT people who need to harness this wisdom?

I think I answered that.

Your second question was about White Magic and "Ascended Masters" and I don't know anything about any "Ascended Masters". But freeman was kind enough to include a link, which I'm now going to check. Then I'll comment.

But in general, a lot of people are willing to dismiss or diminish a person and his/her qualities and abilities and skills by claiming that person to be into "the occult" without any real knowledge about what this "occult" actually is.

I'm trying to read a lot on this stuff, but from the sources I trust and not just any New Age book of rubbish.

I'll get back on the White Magic and the Ascended Ones.

To finish, any rite or ritual is Magic; Catholic ritual is Magic, as well as The Black Mass, or Muslim prayer. In fact, prayer is Magic.

BTW, BlueAngel.

It seems Hitler WASN'T slaughtering Jews. Those who got killed by Hitler were most probably Communist fighters and saboteurs or Bolshevik/Allied collaborators. It was war.

truebeliever
09-14-2005, 02:13 AM
Did he not know that his men were slaughtering JEWS?

According to whom?

Here are a couple of little tit bits NOT in dispute...

Eisenhower NEVER mentions the gas chambers ONCE in ANY of his memoirs.

The term "Holocaust" does not appear in the literature until the early 1970's.

Hundreds...i repeat HUNDREDS of Holocaust survivors have been shown to be COMPLETE frauds.

Quo Vadius? What is truth? I'm still waiting for the truth about WW2 and Adolph Hitler.

My heart goes out to all people who suffered terribly during that time.

That includes the 40 million murderd by various means by Joseph Stalin.

My 3 month old neice is staying with me...to think of her crammed on a train, panting for breath and water...to painful to imagine. I've no doubt it happened. Just as I feel for the poor infants of Dresden...burnt to a crisp.

Draken
09-14-2005, 02:33 AM
Marsali, as I'm reading that "Ascended Masters" link I get an intuitive warning signal: New Age movement, H.P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey...

A quote randomly taken from the text:

'The Great Awakening is taking place. In the cities and towns across America, hardly a week goes by without a symposium, seminar or workshop on spiritual healing, extrasensory perception...new age living, the power within, creative imagination, the dynamics of positive thinking, mind control, awareness training, higher sense perception, the art of meditation, new dimensions of consciousness, holistic medicine, yoga... This is not by chance. According to one Advanced Soul, "Through the silent hidden work of the Masters, men and women throughout the world are beginning to intuitively understand the Truth. There is a vibration, call it the Master Vibration, that is flowing through the consciousness of mankind, turning each individual toward the Light within, and it is only a matter of time before the Dawning"'.

I'll read the whole thing thoroughly, but only because I promised!;-)

A long time ago I posted a thread dealing with the New Age Movement and it's false doctrine. The thread is <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=590&forum=3">INTEGRAL TRADITION Revolt against the modern world CONSERVATIVE REVOLUTION</a>.

nomad
09-14-2005, 06:11 AM
truebeliever wrote:
Did he not know that his men were slaughtering JEWS?

According to whom?

Here are a couple of little tit bits NOT in dispute...

Eisenhower NEVER mentions the gas chambers ONCE in ANY of his memoirs.

The term "Holocaust" does not appear in the literature until the early 1970's.

Hundreds...i repeat HUNDREDS of Holocaust survivors have been shown to be COMPLETE frauds.

Quo Vadius? What is truth? I'm still waiting for the truth about WW2 and Adolph Hitler.

My heart goes out to all people who suffered terribly during that time.

That includes the 40 million murderd by various means by Joseph Stalin.

My 3 month old neice is staying with me...to think of her crammed on a train, panting for breath and water...to painful to imagine. I've no doubt it happened. Just as I feel for the poor infants of Dresden...burnt to a crisp.


I read that

1. Stalin was Jewish

2. Statlin slaughtered over 100 MILLION people

Anybody has the details on these 2 points ?

truebeliever
09-14-2005, 07:56 AM
Currently reading a good Russian book on him.

Even Lennin considered him to ruthless. In fact, the fact that he even got to any power says that someone or some power was behind him.

Apparently he had a completely shit childhood that far surpassed Hitlers in beatings and brutality. I almost felt sorry for him.

I've read he hung out in the Coffee houses frequented by the Jews...but thats all I know...over to you DRAK...

Draken
09-14-2005, 09:41 AM
Yes. Quite. 8-)

Nomad, check out this thread of mine. I think you've even commented on this.

<a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=1136&forum=13">Was Stalin a Rothschild? By Clifford Shack</a>

It was a long time ago I read this piece and I don't know who this Clifford Shack is. But you'll find another link to an article on the WW2 leaders and their bloodlines claiming the same thing.

Whatthehey, here's the link: <a href="http://judicial-inc.biz/Bush_Mossad11.htm">A look into WW2 leaders and their bloodlines</a>

Anyway, it seems that Stalin did have quite a lot of Jewish blood, or is it Khazar, one can never be really sure. Eventually, he did ban Freemasonry, which is why I think his doctors poisoned him. I have no source for this last claim, but according to my father it's "common knowledge". I trust my father.
I'm sure there are a few informative books on the subject.

Marsali
09-14-2005, 10:35 AM
I appreciate that you're addressing my questions, Draken; thanks.

Students of the occult will often dismiss the negative aspect of occultism by claiming that occult simply means "hidden." But there's nothing simple about occultism. I was, for many years, a Theosophist before becoming a Christian ten years ago. I still have friends and family members who study the occult by way of Theosophy, Co-freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, and the Summit Lighthouse.
They are good people who have been misled by the father of lies into believing that true spiritual knowledge is hidden knowlege, and that this knowlege has been denied to the dumb masses since the advent of Christianity.

But occult, or hidden, knowlege is ultimately controlled by satan. One of Satan's greatest achievments for himself is that he has been able to get people to believe that he doesn't exist. He will work through occult groups by making it seem that occultism is a benvolent help to mankind; it's a subtle spiritual seduction.

You mentioned, Draken, that Catholic ritual is majic, as is the black mass. But the big difference is that all Catholic ritual leads to Jesus Christ and God, while the black mass leads to the opposite direction - to satan and hell.

I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about white majic and what you call the 'ascended ones'.

freeman
09-14-2005, 11:13 AM
But occult, or hidden, knowlege is ultimately controlled by satan. One of Satan's greatest achievments for himself is that he has been able to get people to believe that he doesn't exist.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." -- C. S. Lewis

Ever notice how whenever you meet a real educated idiot, you know, one of those secular humanist intellectual types with half a dozen higher degrees, that they always turn out to be non-believers?
:-D

Marsali
09-14-2005, 11:33 AM
That's right. Many people who consider Christianity to be too simple will be drawn to the occult groups I mentioned. These groups will appeal especially to intellectuals. As a lure, they will sometimes say that the the 'real' Jesus Christ, or the true embodiment of the Christ spirit, is working through them.

Draken
09-14-2005, 11:56 AM
First of all I don't call and haven't called any one or several people "ascended ones". I used the terminology I was provided by your question.

Right, this is a massive issue.

Spiritual knowledge is hidden knowledge insofar as one has to already have had an experience of the Divine or spiritual to know and to recognize it. Also, there are different ways to read the Bible, Quran, the Tao-Te-Ching, the Vedanta, etc. Some people just can't understand how I can interpret a passage so differently from them. I've had conversations with people here on CC who say to me that any interpretation out of the "ordinary" is Satanic and leads straight to Hell.

Nothing of this knowledge has been denied the masses by anything other than their own egos. The spiritual knowledge we're talking about is there if you look for it. Most people simply don't look for it. Therefore they don't stand a chance in finding it! They have denied themselves this knowledge.

The fact is that almost all genuine spiritual paths have been corrupted, including Catholicism and Christianity in general. Some say the forms and rites of Catholicism can still be filled up again with the power of true spirituality, but that in general they, the forms and rituals, are diluted to the point of them hardly containing any power.
Most other religious forms and rituals are unfortunately void of this spiritual power from Above. We've simply gotten too far away from the Source of these forms and they've lost the power to give humans spiritual fulfillment.

In regards to Catholicism, just look at the last two popes; they were and are hardly following and spreading traditional, orthodox Christian/Catholic teaching.

Don't misunderstand me, though. I'm not saying Jesus wasn't "God's Son", on the contrary, I've stated many times on CC that I certainly am "a follower" of Jesus, just maybe not in the way most fanatical, literal believers of Jesus and the Bible.

Actually, NOTHING is controlled by Satan; EVERYTHING is "controlled" by God.

The biggest and saddest achievement of Communism is they tricked most people into believing - not that Satan but GOD doesn't exist. This leaves them totally open and defenseless against dialectical materialism, which is the basis of Communist false doctrine, based on Darwinism and the classical Darwinian theory of evolution.

I wouldn't and couldn't trust mainstream Catholicism, having seen the way the Catholic establishment has taken the last hundred years or so. I'm not so sure it leads to Jesus and God by default. Like I said, today's main religions are all infiltrated, subverted, corrupted and turned upside down, by Freemasonry, Kabbalism and exactly the kind of New Age occultism you mention.

I read a book about a Native American medicine man called Bearheart. He said there are two types of people: the one who helps himself and the one who helps others. Basically, he said that, being a medicine man and having unusual skills, he could very easily use them to help himself. But if he did - JUST ONCE - then he would've crossed over to being a Black Magician and he could never go back. Since he considered himself a kind of magician, he wanted to help others, who came to him in honesty and respect, with the powers and special gifts he had at his disposal.
This makes him a "white magician".

Now, it's very difficult to define "magic" because the incredible amount of contamination the word has been subjected to over the years.

For example, the power of money is a kind of Black Magic, which uses symbols and signs. We've all agreed to money having the value which is written on a dollar bill, pound note or coin. When did we agree to this? Over many years of manipulation by the international bankers. We've accepted that the $ sign and £ sign with a certain number after it has a relative value. But really it's not worth shit, because it's only some fancy paper not worth even a fraction of what the magic sign says it is worth. As soon as we, the masses, decide that paper money is no longer worth anything, it will lose its magical power. But we the masses are so enchanted by the power - occult power - that money has over us. And soon the value of money is not even going to be worth as much as the paper it's written on, because it's all going to be electronic credit and electronic banking, with chipping and the whole truly Satanic deal.

Have you ever wondered why it is that the further away from large cities and urban living you get, the less value money has? Money is only important for people living in large urban areas where they have to buy food, drink and housing, because they can't produce it themsleves. In the countryside on the other hand, it doesn't matter if you're rich because you can't eat money; important for country people is to produce yourself the food you need to survive the winter. Maybe you produce a little more than you need, then you can exchange it with your neighbour for something you need that he has more of.

Urban living is totally against any normal way for human beings to live.

The industrial revolution was the start of large masses of people being forced to move into towns and cities. This was the start of the larger and larger part money was to have in modern society, to the point where we are today.

Money is nothing but Black Magic, for sure.

Funnily enough, money is placing itself (actually being deliberately placed) between goods people could easily exchange or barter with, in the exact same way Jews, as the merchants they are, place themselves as middlemen between buyer and seller. They don't produce anything, they make their living off the interest they take for the service of making commerce "easier" for buyer and seller. Just like money should be a tool making commerce easier, it has now become the reason the world is over-producing: one produces commodities to aquire - exchange it - for more money, not the other way around, which is the way it should be, if money has to be used at all: produce just enough money to the equivalent value of the commodity it's supposed to buy.

Sorry for veering off into financial territory.

I'm trying to explain, and give an example of the way money is used to literally put us under an evil, oppressive spell.

I'm looking forward to hearing your views on this post. I've just been letting my mind run amok as I write; I'm no financial expert. This is just the way it came out, I hope I make SOME sense!

Thumper
09-14-2005, 12:32 PM
Draken wrote:
Certainly, nomad.

The current situation is that the Zionist/Khazars are very race-conscious and try to foster a self-knowledge and awareness of race within their own race, while trying to deny this self-awareness and knowledge of race in other races, via indoctrination, disinformation, propaganda and outright lies.but isn't modern day Israel very mongrelized with your various ethopian, ashkenazi, and every other kind of Jews?

Draken
09-14-2005, 12:48 PM
Yes, physically. And yet, don't they seem to be very homogeneous in spirit?

The fact of race is not just an issue of blood and genes, it's also about the race of the spirit. It seems to me they themselves are very cavalier with who they actually consider Jewish. Look at someone like Norman G. Finkelstein for instance. Some hardcore Jewish supremacists actually question whether Finkelstein actually is a Jew, just because he's a very knowledgeable and sharp critic of the state of Israel.
On the other hand, anyone who supports Israel and International Judeocracy is as good as Jew to them.

I think it's because of the issue of SPIRITUAL race. A special attitude, mentality, world view in a way.

Some people say being Jewish is a state of mind rather than a question of heredity or blood. I don't know enough about it though, so I can't really state anything for sure. But intuitively, I think there could be something substantial in the idea of the attitude of viewing oneself as an eternal victim...

One doesn't have to be Jewish to see oneself as a victim.

Just a thought.

Draken
09-14-2005, 02:41 PM
Another very relevant point, while I'm on the subject of money:

In Sweden there was a massive robbery recently. In fact, it was so huge that Stockholm, the capital, and partially other bigger cities, were suffering from cash shortage the week after.

So, how come, that after such a massive bank robbery with so much money and so much cash stolen, people still have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?

How come nobody lost ANYTHING?

freeman
09-14-2005, 02:46 PM
So, how come, that after such a massive bank robbery with so much money and so much cash stolen, people still have the same amount of money in their bank accounts?

How come nobody lost ANYTHING?

Because thanks to the manipulations of the central banksters money has no real value.
It can be replaced the same way it was created originally -- out of thin air, with principle and interest charged to the taxpayers.
Money is not backed up by anything of value -- just ask a financial "expert" or economist, and they will tell you that Federal Reserve Notes are backed by "our faith in the American economy".
Now tell me why we haven't burned them for fuel like the Germans in post-WW I...

Draken
09-14-2005, 02:49 PM
Magic? :lol:

Marsali
09-14-2005, 02:58 PM
Sorry, folks, to once again draw the subject away again from the original topic. Hopefully it'll be temporary.

Draken, You wrote that the last two Popes were hardly following orthodox Christian/Catholic teaching. What is it that you would personally consider to be orthodox Christian/Catholic teaching?

Draken
09-14-2005, 03:22 PM
The fact that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus, for example.

Check out this link to Michael A. Hoffman II, <a href="http://www.revisionisthistory.org/christian1.html">The Judas Iscariot of Our Time</a>

Also you can check out this thread on Ratzinger and pope matters, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=1129&forum=13">Freemason and pseudo-Christian theologian Hans Küng- Kabbalistic Jews candidate for the new Pope?!</a>

Marsali
09-14-2005, 03:29 PM
I asked what it was you YOU personally considered to be orthodox Christianity/Catholicism, not what other people think (as provided in your links).

Marsali
09-14-2005, 03:47 PM
Actually Draken, I'm content to let this subject end here. It's boring for others to have to read religious arguments, kind of like when someone wants to talk about football with me - I just wanna run the other way.

I think that you know very little about orthodox Christianity, except from what you may have heard, possibly, from anti-Christians.

I really just want to find out exactly where you're coming from, what exact kind of occult beliefs you have, because then I could get at the heart of the situation. But you're keeping mum about that, and that's ok, for now. God bless you.

nomad
09-14-2005, 04:31 PM
Draken wrote:
Yes. Quite. 8-)

Nomad, check out this thread of mine. I think you've even commented on this.

<a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=1136&forum=13">Was Stalin a Rothschild? By Clifford Shack</a>

It was a long time ago I read this piece and I don't know who this Clifford Shack is. But you'll find another link to an article on the WW2 leaders and their bloodlines claiming the same thing.

Whatthehey, here's the link: <a href="http://judicial-inc.biz/Bush_Mossad11.htm">A look into WW2 leaders and their bloodlines</a>

Anyway, it seems that Stalin did have quite a lot of Jewish blood, or is it Khazar, one can never be really sure. Eventually, he did ban Freemasonry, which is why I think his doctors poisoned him. I have no source for this last claim, but according to my father it's "common knowledge". I trust my father.
I'm sure there are a few informative books on the subject.


So 6 000 000 Jews were killed by Hitler and

the whole world is GUILTY of his sins.

The Jews with Stalin at the head kill

100 000 000 Christians and no one says a word ???

Is this our reality ?

Draken
09-14-2005, 04:40 PM
Yes, it is. With the slight correction that Hitler didn't kill 6 million Jews. Otherwise, yes, this is our "reality" - the POLITICALLY CORRECT REALITY.

It's not the truth, though.

Arjuna
09-14-2005, 05:33 PM
Marsali,

If Draken, or any of us, refers you to a published article when asked the question, "What do you think about xyz," you can assume that he agrees with what is written in the article unless disagreement is explicitly stated.

I think the issue here is the relationship between Christianity and Judaism. Talking about "orthodox teachings" confuses the issue, especially since there are many Orthodox churches all claiming to embody the "orthodox teachings", and all of these churches have changed their teachings regarding Judaism over the centuries. I claim that Judaism is inherently anti-christian, and virtually all Catholic, Protestant, Fundamentalist Christian, and Orthodox churches have adopted positions regarding Judaism that empower the Jewish goal to destroy all of Christianity.

Jesus was strongly opposed to the Pharisees, and rigthly so, since they were very wicked and evil. The Pharisees murdered Jesus. The Pharisees are still with us today, they are more powerful than ever, and still entirely wicked and evil. The basis for their beliefs is rooted in the Talmud, a collection of rabbinical writings that is extremely anti-christian. Jewish Zionism is a creation of the Pharisees. The goal of Zionism is Jewish world domination, including the destruction of all non-Jewish controlled religions.

Having stated my opinion briefly, I will now act like Draken and refer you to several published articles. Let's start with one published by a Pharisee organization:

THE PROMOTION OF ANTI-SEMITISM BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol1.htm
This article explains how the evil Church of Rome has opposed Judaism over the centuries, and, although it has softened its stance recently, the "Catholic Church does not accept Judaism and Roman Catholicism as equal paths to salvation. They teach that salvation only comes from the church." Nowhere in the literature of this organization, which promotes religious tolerance, will you find anthing claiming that the Jewish religion is in any way anti-christian. I wonder why?

While preaching religious tolerance, it is obvious that the Pharisees are attempting to destroy Christianity. Here is just one example:
The Growing Anti-Christian Sentiment
http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/noNativity.htm
There is a raging dispute in New York City over whether or not schools may be allowed to display religious symbols. Apparently, Jewish “menorahs” and Islamic “crescents” are permitted, but “nativity scenes,” that depict the birth of Christ, are not allowed. New York City lawyers maintain that the Jewish and Islamic symbols have a “secular” dimension, while the latter is “purely religious.”

The Pharisees are students of the Talmud, a collection of extremely anti-christian writings, hate literature extaordinare:
The Truth about the Talmud: A documented exposé of Jewish Supremacist hate literature
http://www3.stormfront.org/jewish/talmud.html
"Judeo-Christian" Response to the Talmud
Neither the modern popes or the modern heads of Protestantism, have ever insisted that the rabbis of Judaism repudiate or condemn the racism in the Talmud or the murderous hate for Christians and gentiles expressed within it. On the contrary, the heads of Churchianity have urged the followers of Christ to obey, honor and support the followers of the Talmud. Therefore, it should be obvious that these Catholic and Protestant leaders are the worst betrayers of Jesus Christ on earth today.

Indeed, the Papacy has sold out to Jewish influence. Henry Makow, owner of ClubConspiracy, has written:
Is the Pope a Catholic?
http://www.savethemales.ca/000338.html
On New Years Day 2004 Pope John Paul II called for a "new world order... based on the goals of the United Nations." When a world leader uses this terminology, it can only mean one thing. He is a part of the Luciferian conspiracy to create a totalitarian world government. According to Piers Compton, a former Catholic priest, the Papacy was actually subverted by the Illuminati in 1958 when John XXIII became Pope. This was the culmination of a 200-year campaign to infiltrate and destroy the Catholic Church.

Henry Makow has also written about Pharisee sponsored anti-hate laws:
The Hypocrisy of Anti-Hate Laws
http://www.savethemales.ca/000473.html
"The non-Jew ranks as an animal, has no property rights and no legal rights under any code whatever... "Milk the Gentile" is the Talmudic rule but don't get caught in such a way as to jeopardize Jewish interests. Summarized, Talmudism is the quintessence of distilled hatred and discrimination, without cause, against non-Jews."

A more comprehensive effort by the Pharisees to enslave humanity is embodied in the Noahide Laws. Implementation of these laws will result in total Zionist domination and the complete destruction of Christianity. Henry Makow has written on this subject also:
"Globalists Adopting Jewish Laws"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2234
Mankind will in effect be subjecting itself to the same shadowy amalgamation of intellectuals, clerics and occultists who ruled Judea in ancient times, and whom Jesus in his earthly ministry loudly denounced as, "...scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...you serpents, you generation of vipers, how will you escape the damnation of hell?"

Draken
09-14-2005, 05:33 PM
Hey, nomad.

Check this out:

<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1341941/posts">The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression By Stephane Courtois, Mark Kramer (Translator), Jonathan Murphy (Translator), Karel Bartosek, Andrzej Paczkowski, Jean-Louis Panne, Jean-Louis Margolin (Contributors); Introduction to the U.S. edition by Martin Malia Published by Harvard University Press, 1999 Originally published in France, 1997</a>

Reviewed by Claire Wolfe

Examining the photos and reading their captions in The Black Book of Communism, you might expect the surrounding 700+ pages to contain a wail of outrage. The photos, though few, are as graphic and heart-rending as the worst from Nazi Germany.

But the text is no impassioned partisan cry. It's something more powerful than that; it's the facts. The Black Book has been called a catalog, an indictment, a prosecutorial manual against Communist crimes. It is a simply a dispassionate account - article after article - of the history of Communist power. Beginning with Leninist terror policies and concluding with the starvation produced by Afrocommunism, the historians of The Black Book list the events, tally the numbers, describe the conditions, name the names.

Their conclusion:

* USSR: 20 million deaths * China: 65 million deaths * Vietnam: 1 million deaths * North Korea: 2 million deaths * Cambodia: 2 million deaths * Eastern Europe: 1 million deaths * Latin America: 150,000 deaths * Africa: 1.7 million deaths * Afghanistan: 1.5 million deaths * Communist movements or parties not in power: about 10,000 deaths

Nearly 100 million deaths. Not casualties of war, but civilian slaughter. Deaths in gulags and concentration camps. Deaths from a bullet to the head. Most of all, deaths by starvation - the result either of planned famines, meted out as punishment to internal foes (as in Stalin's USSR), or unintended consequences of central policy.

American historian R.J. Rummell has tallied similar figures in his book Death by Government. But The Black Book is different in that 1) it focuses on death and terror in Communist regimes only 2) many of its contributors were (or are still) members of the left and 3) this book touched off an international storm when it was first published in France.

The "crime" of revealing Communist crimes

Why would this scholarly book - with its "just the facts, Ma'm" approach and its extensively documented claims - ignite a firestorm?

Partly it is because many crimes of Communism have gone unexamined, due both to bias among the intelligentsia and lack of access to archives of Communist countries. As such, this book is a shock to those who haven't been paying attention.

Partly it is that in Europe, and France especially, it is still chic to identify oneself as a Communist or Socialist. This book is an embarrassment and a shame to those who have practiced "ideological self-deception."

---------------------

There you have it. 100 million. And yes, they were mostly belivers in God; mainly Christians and Muslims.

I should add that the USSR figures are VERY conservative, cautious estimates. The real USSR figures are closer to 60 million.

freeman
09-14-2005, 06:33 PM
"Globalists Adopting Jewish Laws"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2234
Mankind will in effect be subjecting itself to the same shadowy amalgamation of intellectuals, clerics and occultists who ruled Judea in ancient times, and whom Jesus in his earthly ministry loudly denounced as, "...scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...you serpents, you generation of vipers, how will you escape the damnation of hell?"

Uh...actually, I wrote that article at Dr. Henry's request.
Not that I am trying to brag on myself, but it was a very interesting assignment, and an absolutely incredible topic.
In fact, there was way too much reference material to include in that short piece, but one additional tidbit I would like to point out: The primary Talmudic rabbinical group which is sponsoring the promulgation of these "Noahide Laws" is also on very intimate terms with Russian President Vladimir Putin. (Just for those who may still be harboring notions of Putin being some kind of champion for nationalism.)

nomad
09-14-2005, 07:03 PM
freeman wrote:
"Globalists Adopting Jewish Laws"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2234
Mankind will in effect be subjecting itself to the same shadowy amalgamation of intellectuals, clerics and occultists who ruled Judea in ancient times, and whom Jesus in his earthly ministry loudly denounced as, "...scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...you serpents, you generation of vipers, how will you escape the damnation of hell?"

Uh...actually, I wrote that article at Dr. Henry's request.
Not that I am trying to brag on myself, but it was a very interesting assignment, and an absolutely incredible topic.
In fact, there was way too much reference material to include in that short piece, but one additional tidbit I would like to point out: The primary Talmudic rabbinical group which is sponsoring the promulgation of these "Noahide Laws" is also on very intimate terms with Russian President Vladimir Putin. (Just for those who may still be harboring notions of Putin being some kind of champion for nationalism.)


This kind of information only reinforces the

Jewish belief of their greatest and importance

and solidifies the claim of being the chosen

people.

Arjuna
09-14-2005, 07:25 PM
"Globalists Adopting Jewish Laws"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2234

Freeman said:
"Uh...actually, I wrote that article at Dr. Henry's request."

Sorry Freeman. The article is credited to a Special Correspondent. I should have known it was someone other than Henry. Thank you for writing it. It is a topic that very few are aware of.

nomad
09-14-2005, 07:33 PM
Arjuna wrote:
"Globalists Adopting Jewish Laws"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2234

Freeman said:
"Uh...actually, I wrote that article at Dr. Henry's request."

Sorry Freeman. The article is credited to a Special Correspondent. I should have known it was someone other than Henry. Thank you for writing it. It is a topic that very few are aware of.


With a track record of outsmarting every

civilisation they ever encountered, is it so

wrong for them to do so ???

What else would you have them do ???

Arjuna
09-14-2005, 07:50 PM
Nomad said:
"With a track record of outsmarting every civilisation they ever encountered, is it so wrong for them to do so ??? What else would you have them do ???"

It is wrong for them to do so simply because their motives and purposes are evil. I would prefer that they confess their sins against humanity, ask for forgiveness, and do appropriate penance for those sins. Their evil religious and secular teachings should be destroyed.

freeman
09-14-2005, 08:16 PM
Ironically, the majority of the American public will never be aware that their corrupt leadership has already laid the groundwork to sell them out to a global theocracy based upon Talmudic law.

Nomad, all I can say is, do you really think that by "outsmarting every civilization they have encountered", the Jewish people are doing God's work -- or Satan's? Does God encourage honesty or deception?
And when, in the process of this duplicity, they incur the wrath of the Gentile world and then cry anti-semitism, is that another example of their intellectual and genetic superiority, or just plain hypocrisy?
I suppose what I'm really asking here is define the Talmudic Jewish concept of "fairness".

nomad
09-15-2005, 05:04 AM
freeman wrote:
Ironically, the majority of the American public will never be aware that their corrupt leadership has already laid the groundwork to sell them out to a global theocracy based upon Talmudic law.

Nomad, all I can say is, do you really think that by "outsmarting every civilization they have encountered", the Jewish people are doing God's work -- or Satan's? Does God encourage honesty or deception?
And when, in the process of this duplicity, they incur the wrath of the Gentile world and then cry anti-semitism, is that another example of their intellectual and genetic superiority, or just plain hypocrisy?
I suppose what I'm really asking here is define the Talmudic Jewish concept of "fairness".

I am saying that

1. not all Jews are intentionally evil

2. its impossible to want to choose a "dumber"

" operating system " for ones brain ... in other

words how can one choose to be stupid or act

stupid when they have been enlightened.

freeman
09-15-2005, 05:39 AM
I think you have sidestepped my question, nomad, but I will end this exchange by asserting that any "enlightenment" born of deceiving and mnistreating one's fellow human beings is an ultimately inferior "operating system" which will only guarantee the destruction of its practitioners by their vengeful victims.
This IS a "dumber" sytem. A smarter one would involve a mutual cooperation that would benefit all peoples -- God's plan for mankind, as opposed to Satan's.

nomad
09-15-2005, 06:13 AM
freeman wrote:
I think you have sidestepped my question, nomad, but I will end this exchange by asserting that any "enlightenment" born of deceiving and mnistreating one's fellow human beings is an ultimately inferior "operating system" which will only guarantee the destruction of its practitioners by their vengeful victims.
This IS a "dumber" sytem. A smarter one would involve a mutual cooperation that would benefit all peoples -- God's plan for mankind, as opposed to Satan's.

Talmudic Judaism ... I can see your point,

though the Talmud contains phenomenal insights

into human behavior

Torah Judaism ... not so sure.

Thumper
09-15-2005, 01:15 PM
Draken wrote:
Yes, it is. With the slight correction that Hitler didn't kill 6 million Jews. Otherwise, yes, this is our "reality" - the POLITICALLY CORRECT REALITY.

It's not the truth, though.according to Myron Fagan, it was only 600,000

Draken
09-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Check out my thread, Thumper. Be brave and be the first to comment on my thread! So far, either no one is interested, no one has the guts or it's such a truism and a cliché that no one can be bothered...;-)

<a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=1733&forum=24">Official Auschwitz figures!
Which figure must we believe by law? Which figure is not considered holocaust denial? Which figure is not considered anti-Semitic? Which figure is not considered hate?</a>

Marsali
09-15-2005, 06:29 PM
Arjuna,

I think the previous issue had to do with the relationship between Jusaism and Christianity only in the sense of the way in which Jesus dealt with the Pharasees, which is a model for how we should deal with any evil force today.

Like Jesus speaking to the Pharasees, we need to speak the Truth (assuming we can figure out what that is, which I'm still trying to do) always, whether it's to our friends, or opposing forces.

Like Jesus speaking to the Pharasees, we need to try to break through the denials that those who oppose Truth will often put up as a barrier.

Do you think that Jesus did not love the Pharasees too? Just because he spoke strongly with them does not mean that he didn't love them.
He didn't want others to be affected by their lies and corruption, but he also wanted for their salvation, (perhaps even more so) than that of better people. Sinners often got much of his time and attention.

Jesus said told us to love our enemies and pray for them. Wouldn't this also include your Pharasees? Or George Bush? To live in this world is to live with evil, and regardless of whether that evil is working through a church, synagogue, government, or whatever, Jesus gave us a way to deal with it.

nohope187
09-15-2005, 07:26 PM
That's probably the most difficult thing to do- praying for your enemies or those you know to be working to destroy you. I guess most people would see me as spiritually immatuer for being unable to do that. But ya know what, at least I can admit that I can't do it.

this
09-16-2005, 12:53 AM
Wow, quite a thread!

Hey Nomad, I appreciate your honesty as always. The point I'll try to make (as you keep asking the question) has to do with the dog eat dog mentality. Draken's video on the Bloody History of Communism touches on this idea too. If you see the implicit operating system of humans as survival of the fittest, keep in mind that not everyone shares that view.

Whether some people are genetically pre-disposed to step on others, or whether it is always learned at the mothers (or state run day care's) breast is another question. Communism, be it 1920's Russian, or neo-con American dreamo, is hate filled, animalistic, materialistic, and not nice. Why be nice to someone when you can step on them for advantage? (You may ask) Whether that's in business or The Party gossip about your neighbours. Do unto others before they do unto you. It is opposite of the love that you should learn at home. To not uphold these values in public dealings shows contempt for fellow humans and lowers your 'value' in others eyes.


Nomad said:


"Sucked and bled dry every civilisation OR

OUTSMARTED every civilisation it encountered ...

are the 2 ways of looking at this."



Parasites can be smart. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Nobody looks at the cockroach or raccoon and says "Now they are the best, everyone should aspire to that status. What chutzpah!"

I guess the difference is that most people could not 'live with themselves' knowing they are parasites. One has some need to contribute to society usually. This is where we need to examine how as a society we have been influenced to become a rat in the rat race, and turn away from our true natures. That's why organized Communism, Robber Baron Capitalism, and Illuminism are such a threat to mankind.

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 01:08 AM
I guess most people would see me as spiritually immatuer for being unable to do that. But ya know what, at least I can admit that I can't do it.

Here, here!

If it's an act of will then you ar'nt sincerely praying for your enemies.

Maybe one day I'll get there.

Everyone has their own style and their own role to play in the unfolding.

Marsali
09-16-2005, 11:28 AM
I admire your honesty Nohope. I obviously have a long, long way to go before being able to live up to Jesus' noble ideal (I was rude to Draken, which I'm sorry for).

And if I do ever get there, which is iffy, it won't be without having made A LOT of mistakes along the way....we're only human. Prayer helps.

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 11:55 AM
MARSALI...being rude is irrelevant...are you speaking the truth?

The Pharisees considered Christ rude.

Just where and when did this "rude" shit start?

I blame the British Public School System where "good form" meant not telling that the older boys were buggering you on the w/end...if not the head master.

MARSALI...you sound like a fucking cult member...get a grip. God gave you testicles...let their juices flow all the way to your frontal lobes and beyond. God does'nt mind...he encourages it in these days of deceit.

Marsali
09-16-2005, 12:21 PM
Hey, TB, I didn't say that others can't be rude, did I? It's just something that I'd like to avoid for myself, If I can.

And given that I'm a woman, those juices you mentioned aren't available to me. Let 'em flow in others though, by all means. I'm not out to neuter any man.

Yeah, I do sound like a cult member sometimes. You forgot to mention self-rightous too.

freeman
09-16-2005, 12:25 PM
And given that I'm a woman, those juices you mentioned aren't available to me. Let 'em flow in others though, by all means. I'm not out to neuter any man.

He, he, he. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Busted, TB.
Reminds me of the time I had a little motor bike for sale online, and I kept getting pestered by little tykes who didn't have the money or their parents' consent to be dealing.
So after one suspiciously worded email, I shot back a response, " Are you old enough to shave?"
The adult woman who replied assured me she was, but not her face. :oops:

Saturnino
09-16-2005, 01:25 PM
I guess the point when you are being rude is when you feel you have to win the battle because of your pride, and not because you want to see good prevail.
The ideal would be to see the Illuminati fail so more people could have their eyes opened and search God, not because I liked to spit on the face of the Rothschilds.
The only way to get to this position is to understand that God is in control. That even though God allows evil for a time, He will make things right eventually. If you really believe that, it is easy to see the Illuminati are just fooled idiots who will end up in Hell, with the eternity to regret what they have done. It is all a matter of perspective.
If one doesn't believe that, there is no other way of thinking but to get revenge right now. That's why I believe that nice philosophies that rely on the human spirit (and not God) to forgive are just supression of hate. It is there, one just doesn't let it out.

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 09:02 PM
Woman or man...the testosterone is their for all.

A woman too must allow it's flow or else she will be ineffectual in supporting her man. Does a Lioness lie around hoping a Lion will show up to rescue her cubs from the Heyena's?

My problem with "being rude" is that I actually try to avoid it when it is nescassary. And then it flows like a pent up river.

For me, God acts through the hearts of men and women and springs them into action.

Social control rely's heavily on "good manners" to prevent a outbreak of finger pointing the obvious...that a bunch of fellow humans wish to enslave us, forever...and i'd like to grab the skinny liitle fucks by the throat and slap them around a bit. As they can escape this through various security mechanisms I am left to pound away on the keyboard hoping that if enough peasants know who the culprits are then the freaks might think twice as they cant kill all of us.

Christ was both passive and forceful.

Knowing which is the best tool at the time is the hard part.

Saturnino
09-17-2005, 09:45 AM
TB,

Christ came for sinners, not saints. The key to understand Christianity is to see that we are an evil bunch of bastards who want to screw others for our own good. And that's why we need forgiveness.
People shouldn't go to church AFTER they are clean and sober and good. First because this is impossible to do by themselves (only repression and hypocrisy can be achieved by our efforts). Second, because Jesus told us to go the way we are to him...He is th e one who takes care of sin and gives us strength to get better. It is all about His power , not ours...we are nothing.
Unfortunately, the world thinks about Christianity in the opposite way...people who think they are perfect and holy...whenn it is exactly the contrary.

Bouncer
09-19-2005, 08:33 AM
Hear, hear! Reminds me of the story of the granddaughter who came in from the garden one afternoon. "Grammy, who makes the flowers open up and look so pretty?"
"Why, God does, Honey. God makes the flowers bloom." Replied her grandmother with a smile and tlit of her head.
"Well, how come when God makes them bloom, they're so beautiful, but when I try, they just fall apart?" The little one said, showing a handful of bruised petals.
"Oh, sweetheart, that's because God knows how to do things from the inside out."
And so it is, regrettably, that all of the new age style of mainline denominations try to use all kinds of manipulation and persuasion techniques to make "Good Christians", while many of their victims simply fall apart.

Bouncer
09-19-2005, 08:48 AM
And on a related subject: the temporal lobe of the brain is considered the center for mystical, sublime, and "God-like" thoughts and visions. In fact, those people who suffer from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) often report misty, transcendental experiences, and even psychic experiences.
Now, if we believe Cathy & Mark, then one of the common access codes for MK victims is, "The Voice of God." If we put it all together, we must conclude that part of the entrainment and programming must be in the area of the temporal lobe. If brain harmonics or some other form of brainwave entrainment were successful in this area, it would literally sound like a deeply profound command, or just like what God's voice might sound like.
Remember in Revelations the scripture about the evil ones ascending to the throne of heaven, etc? The temple of God on earth is the human heart and mind. These people who intrude into our minds are violating one of the holiest places on earth: God's temple!

Saturnino
09-19-2005, 08:58 AM
Bounce,

Good illustration , this one about the flower. I would add that it works even in the cases when the person trying to change the other is well-meaning, and not only with bad churches trying to put people in a mold. There is a place in the hearts of people that only God can touch and transform...another person can never touch that place, even with a lot of persuasion.

freeman
09-19-2005, 09:34 AM
Yes, interesting observations, Bouncer.

...one of the common access codes for MK victims is, "The Voice of God." If we put it all together, we must conclude that part of the entrainment and programming must be in the area of the temporal lobe.

Have you ever heard about this God Helmet stuff and the Canadian researcher Micahel Pesinger?
Sounds like low-profile psy-ops research to me:

THE GOD HELMET (http://www.geocities.com/satanicus_2/GodHelmet.html)

Bouncer
09-19-2005, 10:45 AM
Sounds like it and a lot more, too. I wonder what percentage of research in neuropsychology is funded through the back door? 110%? Note that the signal used to stimulate the brain in the helmet is silent and undetectable. With "Signature" coded signals, it would be an easy matter to stimulate the temporal lobes while attenuating the critical thought functions, and perhaps using superheterodyne audio to implant codes or commands. All the equipment needed to do this would fit into two medium-sized suitcases, and could easily be used in line-of-sight applications or through light structural elements. Not to mention rooms that are rigged ahead of time. Remember Operation Midnight Climax, and other MKULTRA nonconsensual drug testing? What's to stop them from using the same experimental setup, but using high-tech methods?

this
09-21-2005, 10:05 AM
Rudeness or refraining from it most of the time is a part of religious principles or 'rules to live by'. If you are rude all the time, people don't take special notice when the situation demands it.

Bouncer
09-21-2005, 11:01 AM
I would hope that someone would perceive the merits of my views or ideas regardless of my lack of tact in communicating them. Some things are emotional and can be charged with language.

this
09-21-2005, 11:16 AM
Back to Nomad's point about parasitic behaviour being inherently smart. Parasites don't have to be smart, but whether they are or not gets in the way of the point that we live increasingly in a culture created by parasites, that rewards such behaviour.

Perhaps not an easy point to comprehend in a culture where people only worry about their own bank account.

Nomad's point for a long time has been that intelligence deserves it's own reward, no matter the circumstances. There are many proverbs saying that intelligence is no guarantee of success, rather determination is. I can only guess that someone can't understand what I can because of a lower intelligence. But I'm not arrogant enough to assume that is the case.

Two articles I will try pasting in. I've read them both, they seem relevant....


http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html


Is Your Boss a Psychopath?

Odds are you've run across one of these characters in your career. They're glib, charming, manipulative, deceitful, ruthless -- and very, very destructive. And there may be lots of them in America's corner offices.

From: Issue 96 | July 2005 | Page 44
By: Alan Deutschman

One of the most provocative ideas about business in this decade so far surfaced in a most unlikely place. The forum wasn't the Harvard Business School or one of those $4,000-a-head conferences where Silicon Valley's venture capitalists search for the next big thing. It was a convention of Canadian cops in the far-flung province of Newfoundland. The speaker, a 71-year-old professor emeritus from the University of British Columbia, remains virtually unknown in the business realm. But he's renowned in his own field: criminal psychology. Robert Hare is the creator of the Psychopathy Checklist. The 20-item personality evaluation has exerted enormous influence in its quarter-century history. It's the standard tool for making clinical diagnoses of psychopaths -- the 1% of the general population that isn't burdened by conscience. Psychopaths have a profound lack of empathy. They use other people callously and remorselessly for their own ends. They seduce victims with a hypnotic charm that masks their true nature as pathological liars, master con artists, and heartless manipulators. Easily bored, they crave constant stimulation, so they seek thrills from real-life "games" they can win -- and take pleasure from their power over other people.

On that August day in 2002, Hare gave a talk on psychopathy to about 150 police and law-enforcement officials. He was a legendary figure to that crowd. The FBI and the British justice system have long relied on his advice. He created the P-Scan, a test widely used by police departments to screen new recruits for psychopathy, and his ideas have inspired the testing of firefighters, teachers, and operators of nuclear power plants.

According to the Canadian Press and Toronto Sun reporters who rescued the moment from obscurity, Hare began by talking about Mafia hit men and sex offenders, whose photos were projected on a large screen behind him. But then those images were replaced by pictures of top executives from WorldCom, which had just declared bankruptcy, and Enron, which imploded only months earlier. The securities frauds would eventually lead to long prison sentences for WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers and Enron CFO Andrew Fastow.

"These are callous, cold-blooded individuals," Hare said.

"They don't care that you have thoughts and feelings. They have no sense of guilt or remorse." He talked about the pain and suffering the corporate rogues had inflicted on thousands of people who had lost their jobs, or their life's savings. Some of those victims would succumb to heart attacks or commit suicide, he said.

Then Hare came out with a startling proposal. He said that the recent corporate scandals could have been prevented if CEOs were screened for psychopathic behavior. "Why wouldn't we want to screen them?" he asked. "We screen police officers, teachers. Why not people who are going to handle billions of dollars?"

It's Hare's latest contribution to the public awareness of "corporate psychopathy." He appeared in the 2003 documentary The Corporation, giving authority to the film's premise that corporations are "sociopathic" (a synonym for "psychopathic") because they ruthlessly seek their own selfish interests -- "shareholder value" -- without regard for the harms they cause to others, such as environmental damage.

Is Hare right? Are corporations fundamentally psychopathic organizations that attract similarly disposed people? It's a compelling idea, especially given the recent evidence. Such scandals as Enron and WorldCom aren't just aberrations; they represent what can happen when some basic currents in our business culture turn malignant. We're worshipful of top executives who seem charismatic, visionary, and tough. So long as they're lifting profits and stock prices, we're willing to overlook that they can also be callous, conning, manipulative, deceitful, verbally and psychologically abusive, remorseless, exploitative, self-delusional, irresponsible, and megalomaniacal. So we collude in the elevation of leaders who are sadly insensitive to hurting others and society at large.

But wait, you say: Don't bona fide psychopaths become serial killers or other kinds of violent criminals, rather than the guys in the next cubicle or the corner office? That was the conventional wisdom. Indeed, Hare began his work by studying men in prison. Granted, that's still an unusually good place to look for the conscience-impaired. The average Psychopathy Checklist score for incarcerated male offenders in North America is 23.3, out of a possible 40. A score of around 20 qualifies as "moderately psychopathic." Only 1% of the general population would score 30 or above, which is "highly psychopathic," the range for the most violent offenders. Hare has said that the typical citizen would score a 3 or 4, while anything below that is "sliding into sainthood."

On the broad continuum between the ethical everyman and the predatory killer, there's plenty of room for people who are ruthless but not violent. This is where you're likely to find such people as Ebbers, Fastow, ImClone CEO Sam Waksal, and hotelier Leona Helmsley. We put several big-name CEOs through the checklist, and they scored as "moderately psychopathic"; our quiz on page 48 lets you try a similar exercise with your favorite boss. And this summer, together with New York industrial psychologist Paul Babiak, Hare begins marketing the B-Scan, a personality test that companies can use to spot job candidates who may have an MBA but lack a conscience. "I always said that if I wasn't studying psychopaths in prison, I'd do it at the stock exchange," Hare told Fast Company. "There are certainly more people in the business world who would score high in the psychopathic dimension than in the general population. You'll find them in any organization where, by the nature of one's position, you have power and control over other people and the opportunity to get something."

There's evidence that the business climate has become even more hospitable to psychopaths in recent years. In pioneering long-term studies of psychopaths in the workplace, Babiak focused on a half-dozen unnamed companies: One was a fast-growing high-tech firm, and the others were large multinationals undergoing dramatic organizational changes -- severe downsizing, restructuring, mergers and acquisitions, and joint ventures. That's just the sort of corporate tumult that has increasingly characterized the U.S. business landscape in the last couple of decades. And just as wars can produce exciting opportunities for murderous psychopaths to shine (think of Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic), Babiak found that these organizational shake-ups created a welcoming environment for the corporate killer. "The psychopath has no difficulty dealing with the consequences of rapid change; in fact, he or she thrives on it," Babiak claims. "Organizational chaos provides both the necessary stimulation for psychopathic thrill seeking and sufficient cover for psychopathic manipulation and abusive behavior."

And you can make a compelling case that the New Economy, with its rule-breaking and roller-coaster results, is just dandy for folks with psychopathic traits too. A slow-moving old-economy corporation would be too boring for a psychopath, who needs constant stimulation. Its rigid structures and processes and predictable ways might stymie his unethical scheming. But a charge-ahead New Economy maverick -- an Enron, for instance -- would seem the ideal place for this kind of operator.

But how can we recognize psychopathic types? Hare has revised his Psychopathy Checklist (known as the PCL-R, or simply "the Hare") to make it easier to identify so-called subcriminal or corporate psychopaths. He has broken down the 20 personality characteristics into two subsets, or "factors." Corporate psychopaths score high on Factor 1, the "selfish, callous, and remorseless use of others" category. It includes eight traits: glibness and superficial charm; grandiose sense of self-worth; pathological lying; conning and manipulativeness; lack of remorse or guilt; shallow affect (i.e., a coldness covered up by dramatic emotional displays that are actually playacting); callousness and lack of empathy; and the failure to accept responsibility for one's own actions. Sound like anyone you know? (Corporate psychopaths score only low to moderate on Factor 2, which pinpoints "chronically unstable, antisocial, and socially deviant lifestyle," the hallmarks of people who wind up in jail for rougher crimes than creative accounting.)

This view is supported by research by psychologists Belinda Board and Katarina Fritzon at the University of Surrey, who interviewed and gave personality tests to 39 high-level British executives and compared their profiles with those of criminals and psychiatric patients. The executives were even more likely to be superficially charming, egocentric, insincere, and manipulative, and just as likely to be grandiose, exploitative, and lacking in empathy. Board and Fritzon concluded that the businesspeople they studied might be called "successful psychopaths." In contrast, the criminals -- the "unsuccessful psychopaths" -- were more impulsive and physically aggressive.

The Factor 1 psychopathic traits seem like the playbook of many corporate power brokers through the decades. Manipulative? Louis B. Mayer was said to be a better actor than any of the stars he employed at MGM, able to turn on the tears at will to evoke sympathy during salary negotiations with his actors. Callous? Henry Ford hired thugs to crush union organizers, deployed machine guns at his plants, and stockpiled tear gas. He cheated on his wife with his teenage personal assistant and then had the younger woman marry his chauffeur as a cover. Lacking empathy? Hotel magnate Leona Helmsley shouted profanities at and summarily fired hundreds of employees allegedly for trivialities, like a maid missing a piece of lint. Remorseless? Soon after Martin Davis ascended to the top position at Gulf & Western, a visitor asked why half the offices were empty on the top floor of the company's Manhattan skyscraper. "Those were my enemies," Davis said. "I got rid of them." Deceitful? Oil baron Armand Hammer laundered money to pay for Soviet espionage. Grandiosity? Thy name is Trump.

In the most recent wave of scandals, Enron's Fastow displayed many of the corporate psychopath's traits. He pressured his bosses for a promotion to CFO even though he had a shaky grasp of the position's basic responsibilities, such as accounting and treasury operations. Suffering delusions of grandeur after just a little time on the job, Fastow ordered Enron's PR people to lobby CFO magazine to make him its CFO of the Year. But Fastow's master manipulation was a scheme to loot Enron. He set up separate partnerships, secretly run by himself, to engage in deals with Enron. The deals quickly made tens of millions of dollars for Fastow -- and prettified Enron's financials in the short run by taking unwanted assets off its books. But they left Enron with time bombs that would ultimately cause the company's total implosion -- and lose shareholders billions. When Enron's scandals were exposed, Fastow pleaded guilty to securities fraud and agreed to pay back nearly $24 million and serve 10 years in prison.

"Chainsaw" Al Dunlap might score impressively on the corporate Psychopathy Checklist too. What do you say about a guy who didn't attend his own parents' funerals? He allegedly threatened his first wife with guns and knives. She charged that he left her with no food and no access to their money while he was away for days. His divorce was granted on grounds of "extreme cruelty." That's the characteristic that endeared him to Wall Street, which applauded when he fired 11,000 workers at Scott Paper, then another 6,000 (half the labor force) at Sunbeam. Chainsaw hurled a chair at his human-resources chief, the very man who approved the handgun and bulletproof vest on his expense report. Dunlap needed the protection because so many people despised him. His plant closings kept up his reputation for ruthlessness but made no sense economically, and Sunbeam's financial gains were really the result of Dunlap's alleged book cooking. When he was finally exposed and booted, Dunlap had the nerve to demand severance pay and insist that the board reprice his stock options. Talk about failure to accept responsibility for one's own actions.

While knaves such as Fastow and Dunlap make the headlines, most horror stories of workplace psychopathy remain the stuff of frightened whispers. Insiders in the New York media business say the publisher of one of the nation's most famous magazines broke the nose of one of his female sales reps in the 1990s. But he was considered so valuable to the organization that the incident didn't impede his career.

Most criminals -- whether psychopathic or not -- are shaped by poverty and often childhood abuse as well. In contrast, corporate psychopaths typically grew up in stable, loving families that were middle class or affluent. But because they're pathological liars, they tell romanticized tales of rising from tough, impoverished backgrounds. Dunlap pretended that he grew up as the son of a laid-off dockworker; in truth, his father worked steadily and raised his family in suburban comfort. The corporate psychopaths whom Babiak studied all went to college, and a couple even had PhDs. Their ruthless pursuit of self-interest was more easily accomplished in the white-collar realm, which their backgrounds had groomed them for, rather than the criminal one, which comes with much lousier odds.

Psychopaths succeed in conventional society in large measure because few of us grasp that they are fundamentally different from ourselves. We assume that they, too, care about other people's feelings. This makes it easier for them to "play" us. Although they lack empathy, they develop an actor's expertise in evoking ours. While they don't care about us, "they have an element of emotional intelligence, of being able to see our emotions very clearly and manipulate them," says Michael Maccoby, a psychotherapist who has consulted for major corporations.
Psychopaths are typically very likable. They make us believe that they reciprocate our loyalty and friendship. When we realize that they were conning us all along, we feel betrayed and foolish. "People see sociopathy in their personal lives, and they don't have a clue that it has a label or that others have encountered it," says Martha Stout, a psychologist at the Harvard Medical School and the author of the recent best-seller The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us (Broadway Books, 2005). "It makes them feel crazy or alone. It goes against our intuition that a small percentage of people can be so different from the rest of us -- and so evil. Good people don't want to believe it."

Of course, cynics might say that it can be an advantage to lack a conscience. That's probably why major investors installed Dunlap as the CEO of Sunbeam: He had no qualms about decimating the workforce to impress Wall Street. One reason outside executives get brought into troubled companies is that they lack the emotional stake in either the enterprise or its people. It's easier for them to act callously and remorselessly, which is exactly what their backers want. The obvious danger of the new B-Scan test for psychopathic tendencies is that companies will hire or promote people with high scores rather than screen them out. Even Babiak, the test's codeveloper, says that while "a high score is a red flag, sometimes middle scores are okay. Perhaps you don't want the most honest and upfront salesman."

Indeed, not every aberrant boss is necessarily a corporate psychopath. There's another personality that's often found in the executive suite: the narcissist. While many psychologists would call narcissism a disorder, this trait can be quite beneficial for top bosses, and it's certainly less pathological than psychopathy. Maccoby's book The Productive Narcissist: The Promise and Perils of Visionary Leadership (Broadway Books, 2003) portrays the narcissistic CEO as a grandiose egotist who is on a mission to help humanity in the abstract even though he's often insensitive to the real people around him. Maccoby counts Apple's Steve Jobs, General Electric's Jack Welch, Intel's Andy Grove, Microsoft's Bill Gates, and Southwest Airlines' Herb Kelleher as "productive narcissists," or PNs. Narcissists are visionaries who attract hordes of followers, which can make them excel as innovators, but they're poor listeners and they can be awfully touchy about criticism. "These people don't have much empathy," Maccoby says. "When Bill Gates tells someone, 'That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard,' or Steve Jobs calls someone a bozo, they're not concerned about people's feelings. They see other people as a means toward their ends. But they do have a sense of changing the world -- in their eyes, improving the world. They build their own view of what the world should be and get others recruited to their vision. Psychopaths, in contrast, are only interested in self."

Maccoby concedes that productive narcissists can become "drunk with power" and turn destructive. The trick, he thinks, is to pair a productive narcissist with a "productive obsessive," or conscientious, control-minded manager. Think of Grove when he was matched with chief operating officer Craig Barrett, Gates with president Steve Ballmer, Kelleher with COO Colleen Barrett, and Oracle's Larry Ellison with COO Ray Lane and CFO Jeff Henley. In his remarkably successful second tour of duty at Apple, Jobs has been balanced by steady, competent behind-the-scenes players such as Timothy Cook, his executive vice president for sales and operations.

But our culture's embrace of narcissism as the hallmark of admired business leaders is dangerous, Babiak maintains, since "individuals who are really psychopaths are often mistaken for narcissists and chosen by the organization for leadership positions." How does he distinguish the difference between the two types? "In the case of a narcissist, everything is me, me, me," Babiak explains. "With a psychopath, it's 'Is it thrilling, is it a game I can win, and does it hurt others?' My belief is a psychopath enjoys hurting others."

Intriguingly, Babiak believes that it's extremely unlikely for an entrepreneurial founder-CEO to be a corporate psychopath because the company is an extension of his own ego -- something he promotes rather than plunders. "The psychopath has no allegiance to the company at all, just to self," Babiak says. "A psychopath is playing a short-term parasitic game." That was the profile of Fastow and Dunlap -- guys out to profit for themselves without any concern for the companies and lives they were wrecking. In contrast, Jobs and Ellison want their own companies to thrive forever -- indeed, to dominate their industries and take over other fields as well. "An entrepreneurial founder-CEO might have a narcissistic tendency that looks like psychopathy," Babiak says. "But they have a vested interest: Their identity is wrapped up with the company's existence. They're loyal to the company." So these types are ruthless not only for themselves but also for their companies, their extensions of self.

The issue is whether we will continue to elevate, celebrate, and reward so many executives who, however charismatic, remain indifferent to hurting other people. Babiak says that while the first line of defense against psychopaths in the workplace is screening job candidates, the second line is a "culture of openness and trust, especially when the company is undergoing intense, chaotic change."

Europe is far ahead of the United States in trying to deal with psychological abuse and manipulation at work. The "antibullying" movement in Europe has produced new laws in France and Sweden. Harvard's Stout suggests that the relentlessly individualistic culture of the United States contributes a lot to our problems. She points out that psychopathy has a dramatically lower incidence in certain Asian cultures, where the heritage has emphasized community bonds rather than glorified self-interest. "If we continue to go this way in our Western culture," she says, "evolutionarily speaking, it doesn't end well."

The good news is that we can do something about corporate psychopaths. Scientific consensus says that only about 50% of personality is influenced by genetics, so psychopaths are molded by our culture just as much as they are born among us. But unless American business makes a dramatic shift, we'll get more Enrons -- and deserve them.

Alan Deutschman is a Fast Company senior writer based in San Francisco.

UConn Health Center in the News
As published in the Hartford Courant, March 10, 2005.

----

http://www.uchc.edu/ocomm/features/stories/stories05/feature_killers.html


The Killers (and Liars) in Our Midst

How Does a Serial Murderer Live Undetected Among 'Normal People'? By Being a Sociopath - A Person Without a Conscience, Without the Ability to Love

By Kathleen Megan

If Dennis L. Rader is the BTK killer, the most nightmarish fact for his Kansas neighbors probably will be that he lived among them without anyone's ever suspecting.

He managed to fool them into believing that he was as he appeared: a pillar in the church, a Scout leader, a perhaps overly zealous city compliance officer.

How could Rader have been capable of leading such a double life? And how could he have fooled so many?

Martha Stout, a psychologist and Harvard Medical School clinical instructor and author of the newly released "The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless vs. the Rest of Us" (Broadway Books, $24.95), said it's not so unusual to find that people who appear to be "unassailable" are actually sociopaths - people with no conscience, incapable of remorse.

"They play all kinds of roles. I am a parent; I am a spouse; I am a doctor, Boy Scout leader, a member of the administration," said Stout.
In her new book, Stout writes about sociopaths who know how to appear normal but actually have no empathy, no ability to love, no connection to other people. Underneath it all, they are ruthless.

Stout concentrates in her book on sociopaths who are not violent but have ruined lives around them. Once people start to think about it, Stout said, they realize, "Well, maybe that's what happened with my ex-husband, or that's why my business partner ridiculed me when there was no reason. We've all known more than one, whether we realize it or not."

Whether a sociopath is a killer or the domineering CEO who treats people mercilessly on his way up the ladder, Stout said, the operating principle is the same: They all lack a conscience and any sense of remorse. It is simply their behavior that is different, with some more prone to violence than others.

While the percentage of true sociopaths is debated - Stout contends it is 4 percent of the population, or one person in 25, while others believe it is one in 100 or fewer - experts do agree on what characterizes them.

Dr. Robert Trestman, a professor of psychiatry and vice chairman at the University of Connecticut Health Center who has done 20 years of research on severe mood and personality disorders, said sociopaths are people who "really do not demonstrate a sense that you're a human. From their perspective, it's them, and everybody else is just as useful to them as a chair, just as meaningless as a chair. So if you hurt or kill, it's no worse than hurting a chair. It's just the utility of the chair as it relates to them."

Sociopaths are often very skilled interpersonally and can be charming and manipulative. "Think of Ted Bundy," said Trestman. "He was very socially gifted and used that to attack others. And in his discussion afterwards [with authorities], it wasn't like he was hurting his peers. He saw them as prey in the same way that a tiger sees a calf as prey."

Often, Trestman said, sociopaths may "say the right words, but you see no emotional connectivity - no emotional reaction to horrific situations."

Or, as Michael Stevens, a neuropsychologist at the Olin Neuropsychiatry Research Center at Hartford's Institute of Living, recalls another expert saying, "They know the words but not the music."

Trestman said that in psychiatry's diagnostic manual, there actually is no diagnosis for sociopathy. The traits associated with the condition are found under "antisocial personality disorder." Typically, people with antisocial personality disorder might show behaviors like lying, cheating or stealing, but a sociopath goes further in that he or she has no conscience, Trestman said. A lie detector test doesn't work with sociopaths because they feel no guilt.

For the most part, the terms sociopath and psychopath are synonymous, although Stout said that the general public often associates a psychopath with more violent behaviors.

Stevens cautioned that in the case of a serial killer like the BTK murderer, there may be psycho-sexual or other factors at play beyond sociopathy or psychopathy.

Stout, who has worked with trauma survivors for 25 years, said she became interested in sociopaths because she wondered, "Who are these people doing these terrible things. ... Who are these people, and what are they like?"

In her book, Stout draws sketches of sociopaths based on actual cases. There is "Skip," the successful businessman who tortured frogs as a child - blowing them up with firecrackers - and later used his brilliance and charm to work his way to the top of a corporation. He married - not for love but because his wife was the daughter of a billionaire. He continued to have random sexual encounters and once was sued by a secretary who said he broke her arm while trying to force her to sit on his lap. Skip, predictably, blamed the secretary. "Why the hell did she put up such a fight?" he wanted to know. The company paid an out-of-court settlement in the case.

"What is the worst part of this picture - the central flaw in Skip's life that makes him into a tragedy despite his success and into the maker of tragedies for so many others?" Stout writes. "It is this: Skip has no emotional attachment."

So why do people become sociopathic? Is it nature or nurture? Trestman said it's almost certainly a combination. There may be some "genetic predisposition" combined with environmental factors.

The astounding statistic, Stout believes, may actually be that so many people - 96 percent, by her count, but perhaps more - do have a conscience and are inclined to be nice. "Most human beings are very conscience-burdened," she said. "Most wouldn't eat the last piece of chocolate cake."

As the former chief psychiatrist for Connecticut's jails and prisons, Trestman said he has interviewed hundreds of people with antisocial personality disorders, but of those, he said, only four or five were what he would consider true sociopaths.

Stevens - who prefers the term psychopath, partly based on research on the topic - and colleague Kent Kiehl, a psychologist, are using magnetic resonance imaging and other brain imaging technology to look at how a psychopath's brain functions. The tests have revealed abnormalities during particular cognitive operations, including the processing of emotions, self examination of behavior for errors, and rethinking or changing a course of action.

Can an adult sociopath or psychopath change his or ways? Usually not, doctors and researcher say, though attempts have been made. Dr. Nick DeMartinis, an assistant professor of psychiatry at the University of Connecticut Health Center, said, "It seems that if you don't develop a conscience early, it's hard to get one."

So how do you recognize a sociopath if you happen to meet one in your daily life? Stout urges readers to practice what she calls "the rule of threes."

One lie or broken promise or neglected responsibility may simply be a misunderstanding. Two may involve a serious mistake, but "three lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior," Stout writes.

"Do not give your money, your work, your secrets or your affection to a three-timer."
Stout also says to pay attention to your instincts, even if the person advising you is supposed to be an authority; to be suspicious of extreme flattery; and to watch out if someone insists you "owe" him or her something. "`You owe me' has been the standard line of sociopaths for thousands of years," Stout writes.

If you do recognize a sociopath, Stout says, the best way to protect yourself is to avoid him or her. "Psychologists do not usually like to recommend avoidance," writes Stout, "but in this case, I make a very deliberate exception."

Martha Stout will speak tonight at 7 at the West Hartford Public Library, where she will read from her book and talk about "The Thirteen Rules for Dealing With Sociopaths in Everyday Life."