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truebeliever
09-16-2005, 07:23 AM
What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?
January 1, 2005

It is important to begin by saying that for one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.

When sincerely asked, this question is a good one. After all, there have been false Messiahs in Jewish history. Among the most prominent were Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zevi. Bar Kochba led a revolt against Rome in the years 132-135 C.E.

During this revolt, one of the most famous figures in Jewish history, Rabbi Akiva, proclaimed him to be "King Messiah." Unfortunately, Bar Kochba, Akiva and thousands of Jews were killed in 135 C.E. when the Romans stormed the stronghold of Betar. Shabbetai Zevi, on the other hand, was a self-proclaimed Messiah. Flourishing in 17th-century Europe, the Shabbatean movement spread among both the common people and the rabbis. But when Shabbetai Zevi was arrested in 1666 by the Sultan of Turkey, he converted to Islam rather than face death. We have been tragically wrong before, so it is not surprising that hard evidence should be sought for believing in Jesus.

The idea of a Messiah is one that is found throughout the Hebrew Bible. There, the Messiah's "I.D." is given to us. Imagine looking up a friend by first locating his country. That would not be enough information, so you would need to ascertain his city, street, and specific number on that street. It would also help if you had a phone number and knew the time at which he would be home.

Similarly, the Bible tells us the "I.D." of the Messiah. His ethnic background, place of birth, time frame of his arrival and other identifying characteristics are given. These "credentials" enable us to identify the Messiah, and to recognize imposters.

Of course it might be objected that if these "credentials" are so clear, why didn't most Jewish people believe in Jesus, and why were they so taken in by false Messiahs like Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zevi?

To understand this, one must realize that by the time of Jesus, the Messianic hope had become greatly politicized in the minds of the people. They were seeking deliverance from the tyranny of Rome. Although the Scripture spoke both of the sufferings and of the victories of the Messiah, the victorious aspect had become uppermost in the minds of the common people because of the Roman domination. This "lopsided" view of the Messiah has stuck with Jewish people, and the politicization of the Messianic hope has continued. Thus the hope of a political rather than a spiritual Messiah contributes to both the acceptance of people such as Bar Kochba, and the rejection of Jesus in his role as a Messiah.

This is not to say that all Jewish people rejected the claims of Jesus. Far from that being the case, all the first followers of Jesus were Jews. In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus. So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

* Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
* Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
* Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass: Zechariah 9:9
* Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
* Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
* Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.

In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming." he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn't prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.

Also, Jesus' life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people's lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected!

The resurrection is a third piece of additional evidence, and it is perhaps the most convincing vindication of Jesus' claims. It is interesting that an Israeli scholar, Pinchas Lapide, has written a book which has attracted no small amount of attention in the Jewish community. The reason is that Lapide has said that the resurrection of Jesus is well within the realm of possibility. After all, he reasoned, the Hebrew Scriptures give a number of accounts of people coming back to life. Why not Jesus as well? Regrettably, Lapide fails to note that the resurrection of Jesus is described in terms that go far beyond the resucitations of the other stories; and, he fails to come to grips with the fact that Jesus predicted his own resurrection, which vindicated his claims to Messiahship.

An assortment of explanations has been offered throughout history to explain away the resurrection as either non-historical ("It never happened.") or as non-supernatural ("Here's how it happened."). But these explanations have not been successful. Run down the possibilities for yourself and see which makes the best sense. Did the Roman authorities steal the body of Jesus from the tomb? Then why didn't they produce it when the word started being spread that Jesus was risen? Or maybe the disciples stole it. But could such a fabrication on their part account for the change in their attitude? Three days earlier they were disillusioned, defeated idealists who had hoped that Jesus would bring in a new world order; could a lie which they knew to be a lie, now account for their hope, their boldness in the face of official persecution, and for the high ethical standards they set?

Or perhaps Jesus never died: he just fainted on the cross and revived in the tomb. This idea was popularized in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield. Unfortunately the author overlooked the fact that the Romans pierced Jesus' side, which would have most certainly killed him. Also, there was a contingent of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb as well as a huge stone that blocked its entrance. There was no way that a resuscitated Jesus could have escaped and then convinced hundreds of skeptical eyewitnesses that he had conquered death forever! Or was it all a mass hallucination? It must have been quite a hallucination to be seen by vastly different kinds of people at different times of day in many different places. You might be able to fool one person, but can you fool five hundred who saw him at one time? And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.

The only satisfactory explanation is that the resurrection actually occurred, just as the record says. And if that's the case, it's a solid reason for accepting the Messiahship of Jesus.

Finally, Jesus transforms people's lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people's lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, "Man is estranged from the womb." That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.

So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives--we think there's ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!
Endnotes

1. John 4:25-26

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/proofessay

Thanx to the "Unterhound" at Liberty Forum.

I'm a free spirit at heart looking here and looking there for the "truth". At the moment, Christianity sure looks like it. Especially as every man and his dog is trying to destroy it at all times. Which confirms for me that it pisses off the right people and speaks a truth that is dangerous to power.

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 07:47 AM
Actually. I'm suspicious of this website.

Can people with more knowledge comment?

nomad
09-16-2005, 08:51 AM
The response to this attack from the Jews.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/

:-D

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 09:31 AM
I dont know the answer to these questions NOMAD.

All I know is that when I try to disbelieve the truth of Christ...i get a cold chill down my spine. Call it stupid faith. Maybe I'll grow out of it and join the rational, reasonable people one day.

I'll try not to bag the Jews so much. But I cant gaurantee anything. :-D

nomad
09-16-2005, 10:35 AM
True Believer ... we have absolute proof of the

devine origin of the Torah ... whether Jeeezus

was its' author is an open question.

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 10:45 AM
No worries.

Saturnino
09-16-2005, 12:29 PM
It takes a lot of stubborness for a Jew who knows the Torah to deny Christ as a Messiah. I mean, dozens of prophecies were fulfilled. When the Jews accept the antiChrist, it will be because He will promise power in this world, a thing they were expecting of Jesus but that He refused to give (my kingdom is not of this world, He said). In other words, they will accept what is more comfortable and profitable for them, not whom fulfills God's promises and prophecies.

nomad
09-16-2005, 02:07 PM
Saturnino wrote:
It takes a lot of stubborness for a Jew who knows the Torah to deny Christ as a Messiah. I mean, dozens of prophecies were fulfilled. When the Jews accept the antiChrist, it will be because He will promise power in this world, a thing they were expecting of Jesus but that He refused to give (my kingdom is not of this world, He said). In other words, they will accept what is more comfortable and profitable for them, not whom fulfills God's promises and prophecies.


ANY other language Torah, I could see your point

Saturnino ... The HEBREW Torah however, even

the Pope would swear is a completely different

book.

psholtz
09-16-2005, 02:11 PM
I mean, dozens of prophecies were fulfilled.
Actually, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single OT prophecy that was fulfilled by Christ, all the moreso since about 90% of the OT prophecies were fulfilled centuries before Christ was even born.. Thomas Paine (founder of America) debunked this myth (that the coming of Christ was somehow *prophesized* in the OT) pretty soundly by the 1790s .. if you google around, I'm sure you'll find the references.

Which is not to say that Christ was not a holy man, if not the veritable Son of God.. it just means that Christianity and Judaism really have nothing much to do w/ each other (other than the historical accident that Jesus was born a Jew). Christianity is the continuation and perpetuation of the ancient Egyptian Mysteries and of ancient Egyptian Sun Worship. The Christian God, just like the Egyptian Sun God, is born on Dec 25 (near the winter solstice), He resurrects on the spring equinox, He's surrounded by a "house" of 12 apostles (i.e., signs of the zodiac), the apostles also describe Christ as "light" or being "clothed in the light" or "shining forth in light" or "his face shines like the Sun", etc.. Jesus is, in other words, the Sun God Himself incarnate..

Judaism, on the other hand, is the continuation of and perputation of (Persian) Zoroastrian fire worship. The Zoroastrians were the first true monotheists, and they worshipped their God in the form of fire. The Hebrew God of the OT, also, universally manifests himself as "fire".. either in the form of a "burning bush" or as a pillar of cloud and fire and smoke wandering through a desert.. Moreover, when the Hebrew God created heaven and earth (Gen 1:1), he didn't create "Heaven" per se, what he created was "shamayim", which translates out of Hebrew more like "fire-water" than it does as "heaven".. The word "Jesse" comes from the same root as the Hebrew word for fire ("esh"), and therefore the "branch of Jesse" is to be understood better as a "smoldering wick" or a "branch to be lit w/ fire", etc.. The legend of "Moses" is an (imho obvious) corruption of the Persian god "Mazda", etc..

Judaism did not exist on this planet before (circa) 500 BC, when it was created by the Persian (Zoroastrian) Emperor Cyrus as a "buffer zone policy" to protect Persia against the Egyptans. Cyrus deployed a bunch of Babylonian Magi (Magi who bore names like Nehemiah and Ezra) into the Levant to colonize the pagan Canaanites, and win them over (politically) towards Persia and away from Egypt. Hence all the language in the OT about "this is our land" and "God gave us this land", etc.. the Persians were trying to colonize Palestine, and if they could convince the pagan Canaanites that such colonization was the "Will" of God, so much the better. Hence also all the blatant anti-Sun-Worship propaganda in the OT.. the most obvious example is Joshua, servant of YHVH, who is able to command the Sun to stop in its tracks and move backwards, etc.. (the message clearly being "If you're an Egyptian and you worship the Sun, look at the power that our Zoroastrian God YHVH has! YHVH is soo powerful that He can command even the Sun god!").. the rest of the OT is rife w/ anti-Sun Worship (i.e., anti-Egyptian) propaganda as well.. (i.e., the (true) historical legend of the Canaanite Shepard Kings being warped into (false) the anti-Egyptian story of Moses, etc).

At any rate, point is Christianity and Judiasm are (ultimately) pretty much unconnected w/ each other.. In fact, if anything, they've historically been the deepest of political opponents (going back to the wars between Egypt and Persia).. certainly Christianity was never "prophesized" in the Jewish OT..

psholtz
09-16-2005, 02:21 PM
Following up on my own post, when you read the OT, don't start reading it at Genesis 1:1.. Instead, start reading it at 2 Chronicles 36:23, and work backwards from there. If you do that, it will become *blazingly* obvious (no pun intended!) that Judaism is nothing more than Persian Zoroastrianism, adopted to fit the needs of an Imperial colonization project in Palestine.. (to buffer against the influence of Egypt) :-P

(btw, if this is true, it utterly destroys all Jewish claims on the Holy Land as being the "Will" of God.. the Jewish claim on that land crumbles into little more than an ancient decree issued by an aging Persian monarch, and the legends of Moses, David and Solomon crumble into little more than fairy tales w/ about as much *historical* truth to them as Frodo Baggins has)..

nomad
09-16-2005, 02:39 PM
psholtz Have you ever read the Hebrew bible

literally "letter by letter" like Jeezus himself

has stated was possible ?

Bouncer
09-16-2005, 02:46 PM
For my two cent's worth, I have to ask, Who is Messiah? He was destined to help establish a new covenant between God and Israel and was intentioned to make Jerusalem the spiritual capital of the world. However, in their highly charged political atmosphere, many wrongly assumed the Messiah would overthrow Rome, and so were disillusioned with Jesus because of this.
As for "Christianity", the first Messianic Jews and believing gentiles generally called themselves "The people of the Way", or something like that. It wasn't until later in history that someone coined the term, "Christian", which was at the time a vaguely diminutive term for "Little Christs", but the term caught on eventually.

psholtz
09-16-2005, 02:50 PM
nomad wrote:
psholtz Have you ever read the Hebrew bible

literally "letter by letter" like Jeezus himself

has stated was possible ?
No, although I would great desire to be able to do that one day (I am teaching myself Hebrew, to be able to do so! :-P )

My ideas about Judaism being a continuation of Persian Zoroastrianism is formed by information such as this:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/index.html

The idea of Christianity being a continuation of Egyptian sun worship is bassed, well.. largely on the obvious Sun allegories that are evident everywhere in the NT, as well as a reading of Hebrews 5-7, where it is written that Jesus was ordained in to the Priesthood of Melchizedek..

If you do a little bit of research, the only place where the Priesthood of Melchizedek was active in Second Temple Times was in Egypt, which .. would kinda imply that Jesus had spent time in Egypt at some point (in fact, Matthew writes that Jesus went to Egypt to flee the slaughter of the innocents, although, this story is probably largely allegorical and might therefore be a hint wrt what I'm saying)..

nomad
09-16-2005, 02:59 PM
psholtz ok let's try your first Hebrew lesson

right now


A ... aleph ... also know as the number 1

B ... beth ... also know as a house (like the Kiss

song)


Now ... lets put the letters together to form

a word ... and read from right to left ...

Can you guess what word this is using pure

logic ?

B + A
house + master

psholtz
09-16-2005, 03:13 PM
nomad wrote:
psholtz ok let's try your first Hebrew lesson

right now


A ... aleph ... also know as the number 1

B ... beth ... also know as a house (like the Kiss

song)


Now ... lets put the letters together to form

a word ... and read from right to left ...

Can you guess what word this is using pure

logic ?

B + A
house + master
If I have to read it in Hebrew-order, then the word is "father", no? :-P

Arjuna
09-16-2005, 03:15 PM
psholtz said, "Christianity and Judaism really have nothing much to do w/ each other."

Excellent posts. That is the best explanation I have ever read.

Your analysis confirms my long-standing belief that the biggest mistake Christianity ever made was holding onto the Old Testament. For Christians to believe that the New Testament is the Word of God is understandable, because those writings tell the story of the origins of their religion. For them to believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God is absurd. The Old Testament tells the story of the origins of an entirely different religion, Judaism. The Old Testament contains many examples of how "God's chosen people" oppose, dislike, and possibly hate the rest of humanity. "The rest of humanity" is referred to as "gentiles" in the OT. Of course, all Christians are gentiles.

The fact is that today many Christians believe that the Jews are God's chosen people, and many Christians consider themselves Zionists.

It would be interesting to know why the compilers of the Bible chose to include the OT. Was it a foolish error on their part, or were the Jews involved in this decision in order to make it possible for them to perpetually confuse and undermine the new religion.

nomad
09-16-2005, 03:19 PM
right on ! ... now we can deduce in theory

the ENTIRE Hebrew dictionary this way ... meaning

if you were taught the meaning of each letter,

you can by yourself build the dictionary.

Now how many languages do you

know that work like this ?

freeman
09-16-2005, 03:42 PM
B + A
house + master


If I have to read it in Hebrew-order, then the word is "father", no?

What if Gloria Steinem is reading it? I can see there is ample room for interpretation in the Hebrew language...

psholtz
09-16-2005, 05:28 PM
nomad wrote:
right on ! ... now we can deduce in theory

the ENTIRE Hebrew dictionary this way ... meaning

if you were taught the meaning of each letter,

you can by yourself build the dictionary.

Now how many languages do you

know that work like this ?
Well, I don't mean to say that Hebrew (and/or Judaism) is not "divinely"-inspired.. There's great and deep wisdom in the Torah and the OT (esp the Prophets, the Wisdom writings and Genesis, imho), and the structure of the Hebrew language is certainly interesting, as you point out. Besides, the Babylonian Magi (<- if they are the true originators of Judaism) were certainly men of deep and devout wisdom.. nobody's going to argue against that.

However, it's one thing to say that your religion is "divinely-inspired" (<- I would hope that it is), it's another thing entirely to say that "God gave us this land, and that's the way things are".. As soon as you start talking about land and who owns it, you take yourself out of the realm of religion and place yourself into the realm of business and politics.. and the God I know couldn't care less about business and politics; what God cares about is you and your Soul ..

Besides, the numbers game (in Hebrew) only goes so far, doesn't it? I mean, citing your example above, the *real* word for "master" is Hebrew is actually "Baal", isn't it? (beth-ayin-lamed).. According to your algorithm above, that would translate as "house-eye-(whatever lamed stands for)" .. does that really work?

Incidently, Hebrew does bear a striking resemblence to Aramaic, the official language of the Persian Empire, showing once again the close connection between Judaism and the Persians.. ;-)

truebeliever
09-16-2005, 07:29 PM
Until you have personally experienced the divine on a deep level you will never understand Christ beyond words in a book.

He may provide comfort and strength in times of adversity and encourage a rightous life...but the terms..."no one comes to the Father except by Me"...and..."the Kingdon of God is within you"...will still remain elusive.

Christ is the only modern Western mind to fully grasp his divinity in both hands and walk with it.

No one had done it before and no one has done it since.

Simple Easterners with Garden Of Eden consciousness indeed attain this state regularly.

God is looking to incarnate into fully conscious humans. So far he's done it once. It may be a fluke of evoloution. I here He's going to do it again.

Looking forward to it.

The term ..."nothing but..." to describe the life of Christ as in, "oh it's just a common sun god theme repeated throughout history". Indeed, lots of these archetypal themes are repeated throught history...in fact - L-I-V-E-D in history.

The hero myth is a popular one...a man rises up against opposition and refuses temptation to go on to become a hero or King like figure to the people. Does that mean William Wallace never lived? Was George Washington a myth?

I dont mind people tearing at the flesh of Christianity every 5 minutes...what they need to do is come up with something that actually is'nt half baked bullshit designed to protect their little souls from the frightening knowledge that God walked the Earth for a short time in the body of one Jesus Christ who had some very specific things to say about some very specific things.

The best thing the detractors can do is say they are not willing to believe because there is not enough "proof", or "facts" and we can part ways happily.

Never in history has a more uplifting story of hope and grace been attacked ENDLESSLY by people who should distinguish between the failings of the Church and the amazing Ministry of Jesus The Christ.

nomad
09-16-2005, 09:17 PM
TrueBeliever here's one insight for you

supporting a possible trinity in the one G-d the

Father


B + A

or

beth + aleph

or

2 + 1 = Trinity ?

psholtz
09-16-2005, 09:32 PM
truebeliever wrote:
The hero myth is a popular one...a man rises up against opposition and refuses temptation to go on to become a hero or King like figure to the people. Does that mean William Wallace never lived? Was George Washington a myth?
I never said Jesus never lived.. in fact, I believe quite devoutly that Jesus did in fact live and that many (although perhaps not all) of the myths ascribed to Him in the NT have some basis in fact. I do after all regard myself as a follower of the Christian faith..

I'm just saying that Christianity bears many similarities to Egyptian Sun Worship, which are all the more striking when you consider that the Bible teaches us (in so many words) that Jesus went to Egypt to recieve His final ecclesiastical teachings and ordination (viz the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which you'll find documented in the Epistle to the Hebrews, chapters 5-7).

nomad
09-16-2005, 09:34 PM
Quote

Besides, the numbers game (in Hebrew) only goes so far, doesn't it?

No its infinite. Each letter is itself

formed by other letters and you can find endless

mathematical logic and allegorical wisdom

in it.

I mean, citing your example above, the *real* word for "master" is Hebrew is actually "Baal", isn't it? (beth-ayin-lamed).. According to your algorithm above, that would translate as "house-eye-(whatever lamed stands for)" .. does that really work?

lamed is the tallest letter and is positioned in the center of the Hebrew alphabet ... it can
mean "to learn" or "to teach"

(notice alpha-bet where did that come from ?)

psholtz
09-16-2005, 10:04 PM
Arjuna wrote:
psholtz said, "Christianity and Judaism really have nothing much to do w/ each other."

Excellent posts. That is the best explanation I have ever read.

Your analysis confirms my long-standing belief that the biggest mistake Christianity ever made was holding onto the Old Testament. For Christians to believe that the New Testament is the Word of God is understandable, because those writings tell the story of the origins of their religion. For them to believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God is absurd. The Old Testament tells the story of the origins of an entirely different religion, Judaism. The Old Testament contains many examples of how "God's chosen people" oppose, dislike, and possibly hate the rest of humanity. "The rest of humanity" is referred to as "gentiles" in the OT. Of course, all Christians are gentiles.

The fact is that today many Christians believe that the Jews are God's chosen people, and many Christians consider themselves Zionists.

It would be interesting to know why the compilers of the Bible chose to include the OT. Was it a foolish error on their part, or were the Jews involved in this decision in order to make it possible for them to perpetually confuse and undermine the new religion.
This is an excellent question/concern, and it's something that I've often wondered about the more I learned about religion (and esp about Christianity and Judaism). For instance, I've long thought that Plato's cycle of philosophical Tetralogies would make a much better *introduction* to the NT than the OT does (to my mind, it's not even clear that the *God* of the OT is even the same *God* who makes his appearance in the NT... and based on the above discussion, he's probably not! LOL)

Voltaire once quipped that the Catholic church should have made Plato a saint, since he (Plato) invented Christianity 300 years before Christ did(!), and .. to be honest, I pretty much (completely) share Voltaire's conviction here. Whether or not Jesus was trained (religiously/philosophically) in Egypt is something we can speculate on (based on the readings from Hebrews 5-7), but we *know* for a (biographical) fact that Egypt is where Plato was trained in philosophy and where Plato was first initiated into the (ancient) Mysteries. Moreover, since Palestine had become deeply, deeply Hellenized (and of course, later Romanized) by the time of Christ, it's not surprisingly that we should see the imprint of Platonic thinking and philosophy coming through in the teachings of Christ.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the decisions of the early Church fathers were probably the wisest option they had open. In the first place, even though (chronologically) Plato came before Christ, the teachings of one do not really add anything to the teachings of the other. If you had Plato as the "OT" and kept Christ as the NT, then... well... Christ isn't really going to say anything in the NT that Plato hadn't already said (several dozen times) in his own writings.. and vice versa. Sooo you're not really adding any information, and so it would be kinda pointless..

Secondly, I believe that to be a truly enduring system of faith, a religion must embody the following three things:

* Solid, responsible moral code by which to live
* Representation of God as a Trinity
* The (all important) Commandment to be "Born Again" (<- using Christianity terminology)

The religion of the ancient Hindus had all three, and it persisted for many thousands of years.. the Mystery (Sun) religion of the Egyptians had all three, and it persisted for at least 3 millenia. Christianity has all three, and it's moving on into its third millenium now..

The Greeks already had the concept of a Trinity (Zeus was capable of manifesting in three aspects, viz Poseidon, Hades and Ammon), and Plato brought to the Greeks the all important doctrine of being "born again" (much like Christ brought it to the Jews). In Plato's philosophy, he describes being "born again" as "raising the Soul out of the Tomb of the Body".. Plato describes the Soul as being "asleep" inside the Body, which encases it as a Tomb, and that it's the responsibility of each human to "awaken" that Soul and to "resurrect" it and to bring it to life from w/in the Tomb.. This, btw, is why there are *soo* many people always being brought back to life from inside tombs in the NT (Lazarus, Jesus, etc).. Like I said, Christianity is a very Hellenistic/Platonic philosophy.

Also note all the times in the NT that Christ says something to the effect of "there will come the day when both the living and the dead will hear the Word of God!" When Christ uses the word "dead" in this context, He doesn't mean "dead" the way you and I traditionally think. He means, "alive, but spiritually dead".. He means, the person appears to be alive and breathing and what not, but the Soul inside is still asleep, and has not yet been brought back to life from inside the Tomb.. In post-1999 Warceski Brothers America, we might translate this commandment of Christ more accurately as "there will come a day when both those who are still plugged into the Matrix and are asleep, as well as those who have unplugged themselves from the Matrix by choosing the blue pill, will hear the Word of God!"

Christ's commandment to "let the dead bury their dead" bears much the same interpretation..

The Greeks, however, lacked a solid moral code by which to live.. it's my understanding that they were quite libertine ( :-P ), hence the (relatively) quick demise of their system of religion and philosophy (beautiful as it was). This is why, imho, it was wise for the NT writers to choose to append the NT onto the OT.. The OT does, after all, provide a very solid moral code (Ten Commandments and all), as well as very graphic depictions of what happens to people should they decide to break this moral code. So while Christianity (re-)introduces the concepts of (a) God as a Trinity; and (b) the importance of being Born Again, Christianity still must piggy-back off the OT so as to provide its moral "backbone" (so to speak).

psholtz
09-16-2005, 10:06 PM
nomad wrote:
Quote

Besides, the numbers game (in Hebrew) only goes so far, doesn't it?

No its infinite. Each letter is itself

formed by other letters and you can find endless

mathematical logic and allegorical wisdom

in it.

I mean, citing your example above, the *real* word for "master" is Hebrew is actually "Baal", isn't it? (beth-ayin-lamed).. According to your algorithm above, that would translate as "house-eye-(whatever lamed stands for)" .. does that really work?

lamed is the tallest letter and is positioned in the center of the Hebrew alphabet ... it can
mean "to learn" or "to teach"

(notice alpha-bet where did that come from ?)
OK, so "Baal" means "house-eye-teach"...

OK... but, "house-eye-teach" still doesn't imply "Master" to me.. ;-)

nomad
09-16-2005, 11:30 PM
remember you can replace the

vowels and generate derivative meanings

take a hebrew dictionary baal has many

meanings ... mine says owner, possessor

l y b

learn + eye + house

You will own or possess something by

learning to observe the "house"

is one possible permutation

You can also replace the letters with its

numerical value and get meaning out of it

here's an example

m d a = adam, mankind


m d 1

md = the hebrew word for blood

man is of 1 blood or we are all brothers

or we all have the same great great great ...

grandparents

the possibilities are endless

anisia
09-16-2005, 11:46 PM
Check out www.bennyhinn.org

truebeliever
09-17-2005, 01:11 AM
TrueBeliever here's one insight for you

supporting a possible trinity in the one G-d the

Father


B + A

or

beth + aleph

or

2 + 1 = Trinity ?

I'm afraid i'm not a full bottle on such aspects of the subject.

I know many have a problem on the aspect of the holy trinity. I have none. God can be God and incarnate in Christ at the same time. The point is God is in You right now. The Kingdom of God is within you. Becoming conscious of this fact is the completion of your life and the final goal of any human being...and then get on with your life. We all have a specific destiny and a particular archetypal structure that endows us with certain gifts. Christ was a carpenter and ultimately a perfect vessal for God to walk about the Earth in. That was what He was good at and born to do.

All I know from direct experience, is that Christ is the only Westerner in history to calmly proclaim himself God and still keep his sanity. Probably because, as he said, it is what I have been born to Be from the beginning.

I could think of a million different stories that would enable one to control people and in total, the 4 Gospels just ar'nt something you make up to twist people around your finger. They are quite specific. In fact I only read them recently after relying on 2nd hand interpretations for a long time.

What a fraud! 2000 years on...converts in the hundreds of millions, a message of compassion and truth...and people have been at it since he opened his mouth on the subject. Indeed, the fraud of all time.

Lets pick on Buddah for a change? He was fat and had bad breath...i hear he also drank straight from the milk carton...
:-P

Saturnino
09-17-2005, 08:40 AM
To say that Christ has nothing to do with the Old Testament is to make Christ an aberration that simply appeared by itself. Christ Himself said that He was the completion of Scriptures (Old Testament at his time).
The problem is that people just don't read the Bible to understand the logic and the perfect struture it has. 66 books by 40 men in 4000 years and it is a whole that makes perfect sense.
God is not an absent god that let things happen. he is perfect control of everything, or He wouldn't be God at all, just a powerful being. That's why He has put together a plan for the redemption of mankind that included His message to the Jews, the Law, as a guide that would teach obedience and show that we could never obtain it by our efforts. The sacrifices of blood in Judaism were a model for the need of the sacrifice of Jesus' blood.
Jesus came to fulfill this plan.
To tell that Jesus and His teachings come from Zoroastrism or any other religion is absurd. There may be similarities in the teachings, because Satan copies everything and talks about peace and love, while at the same time he kills people.
To say Jesus went to Egypt to learn is ridiculous. Why would God go to Egypt to learn anything ? Much less to learn demonic magic ? Non-sense. This is to say that Jesus was a magician, a slave of demons, and not God Himself. It is in total contradiction of His teachings.

I prefer people who say that Jesus was a fraud than this nonsense of saying that they believe in this aberration , this contradiction, this magician they invented and call Jesus.

My friend Moulder, you are anything BUT a Christian.

truebeliever
09-17-2005, 09:06 AM
Yeh, i wondered why i even posted it as soon as i posted it.

He's a fraud and he never existed.

But i'm happy believing in fairy tales, so leave me to it. :-D

Why is it NO other "religion" gets put through the griller like Christianity?

Saturnino
09-17-2005, 09:14 AM
Because Christianity is the only religion that says we need forgiveness and that we can't spiritualy develop by our own means. That's contrary to human pride. People want to be in control.

psholtz
09-17-2005, 12:47 PM
Saturnino wrote:
To say that Christ has nothing to do with the Old Testament is to make Christ an aberration that simply appeared by itself. Christ Himself said that He was the completion of Scriptures (Old Testament at his time).
Christ said he came to fulfill the Law, and He also made statements to the effect that "such and such is the Law and the Prophets".. Nice poetic words, but realize that God's Law may or may not have anything to do w/ what the Jews call the "Law of Moses".. There may be Jews who decide to follow God's Law, and there may be Jews who decide not to follow God's Law... same w/ the Gentiles.. There may be Gentiles who decide to follow God's Law, and there may be Gentiles who decide not to ...

All humans have Free Will and God is no respecter of persons (<- this is, in so many words, the Law of which Jesus speaks).

The problem is that people just don't read the Bible to understand the logic and the perfect struture it has. 66 books by 40 men in 4000 years and it is a whole that makes perfect sense.
Whoops!

Whenever I hear about the 66 books by 40 men (<- by the way, Catholics might dispute you, since they count a different number of books in the Bible), it sets of John Darby alarm bells in my head. There is not a Protestant Church in America that has not been infected - to some extent - by the Satanic teachings of John Darby. Chuck Missler is the current day inheritor of John Darby's Satanism...

If you've never heard of John Darby or Chuck Missler, you should educate yourself on who these Dark Satanists are, since what you say here echos much of the nonsense that one often hears crossing their lips.

God is not an absent god that let things happen. he is perfect control of everything, or He wouldn't be God at all, just a powerful being.
God is the Creator all that is. Everything in Creation comes from God, and returns back to God.. Alpha and Omega and what not. Moreover, God's Law cannot be broken by anything in Creation, although Man - by virtue of his Free Will - may *attempt* (and usually does attempt) to evade God's Law. This of course will bring about a reaction on this who attempt to do the evading, and if the evasion is gross enough, it may destroy the "lawbreaker" body, mind and Soul.

However, it's important to realize that man has Free Will and that it is Man, not God, who is in charge of Man's own choices.. Where this otherwise, then.. well.. we wouldn't have free will(!)

That's why He has put together a plan for the redemption of mankind that included His message to the Jews, the Law, as a guide that would teach obedience and show that we could never obtain it by our efforts. The sacrifices of blood in Judaism were a model for the need of the sacrifice of Jesus' blood.
The Jewish interpretation of what constitutes "God's Law" is not necessarily the clearest that's ever been made in human history. Sure, the Ten Commandments are nice, and if the Jews had just stopped there, so much the better (<- the Ten Commandments are a *very* nice exposition of God's Law, btw).

The problem is, they kept going and kept adding it, adding nonsense like Leviticus and the Talmud and God knows what else... until what passes w/ the Jews for the "Law" is anything and everything but the Law by which God has chosen (in His infinite Wisdom) to order Creation.

Regarding your "own efforts," know that your own efforts do count for something. The most important Law in God's Universe is that "you reap what you sow".. Galatians 6:7 is where you'll find this, although truth be told every NT author spends some amount of time dealing w/ this (extremely important) topic. If you think God ignores your thoughts, actions and words, then think again. YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, and you will be held accountable to God (on Judgment Day) for every action you have taken, every word you have spoken and every thought that has crossed your mind... God is ALWAYS watching..

To tell that Jesus and His teachings come from Zoroastrism or any other religion is absurd. There may be similarities in the teachings, because Satan copies everything and talks about peace and love, while at the same time he kills people.
Whoops!

You're saying that Jesus is Satan?! :-?

To say Jesus went to Egypt to learn is ridiculous. Why would God go to Egypt to learn anything ? Much less to learn demonic magic ? Non-sense. This is to say that Jesus was a magician, a slave of demons, and not God Himself. It is in total contradiction of His teachings.
The Bible SAYS that Jesus went to Egypt, Einstein (to flee the Slaughter of the Innocents). The Bible moreover makes the claim that Jesus was ordained into the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which was only active in Egypt at that time..

You do the math..

I prefer people who say that Jesus was a fraud than this nonsense of saying that they believe in this aberration , this contradiction, this magician they invented and call Jesus.
I understand.. You prefer wallowing in ignorance rather than knowing (or attempting to know) the truth.

(Although for the record, I never called Jesus a "magician".. that would be saying that Jesus was a Magi, and like I said, it is Ezra, Nehemiah and the Jews who are the proper inheritors of Magean wisdom).

My friend Moulder, you are anything BUT a Christian.
This is true, for I have not yet been born again of the Spirit, and as such I cannot truly be called a "Christian"... I'll just warn you, know, I detect *many* traces of John Darby's teachings in what you write here, and if you're a follower of Darbyism, that pretty much puts you in league w/ the Enemy (not to mention, the British Crown)

psholtz
09-17-2005, 12:54 PM
truebeliever wrote:
Yeh, i wondered why i even posted it as soon as i posted it.

He's a fraud and he never existed.

But i'm happy believing in fairy tales, so leave me to it. :-D

Why is it NO other "religion" gets put through the griller like Christianity?
Because the Christian is held to a far higher (moral) standard than anyone else is. The problem is, there are so few precious Christians who live up to this standard, and soo many who hypocritically betray it, and in so doing betray their God and themselves, that the Christian today has become a poster child for all hypocrisy and vanity, and for the opposite of what Jesus commanded them to be..

Saturnino
09-17-2005, 06:56 PM
psholtz,

To hell with John darby or Chuck Missler. You only have to look at the Bible, it is plain and clear what the Law is. It is also clear that Jesus knew exactly what it was. He made references to it all the time. I could start copying verses to you, but I think it is your job to get to the Bible and read it. That's what I did. It takes some work.
What I don't appreciate is the double speak you (and all the authors that try to disprove the Bible) use, saying that the Law is the Law but is not the Law...come on, make up your mind. Either it is what is clearly written or it is all a fable and a lie.

I can't believe that you really thought I equaled God with Satan. What I said was that Satan creates religions that mimick the peace and goodness of God, but deny God and Christ as a means of salvation. That means you try to live a moral life by your own efforts but according to Jesus end up in Hell, because you never wanted to acknowledge God as whom He is and in His terms. He makes all the effort, dies in a cross for you and you snob him. You say that the things He said are not exactly what he said, you refuse to follow his simple command to trust and obey. What else can anyone in this position want more from God ? Heaven it is not.

About Jesus going to Egypt as a baby...come on, what a low punch. You said he went to Egypt to learn magic as many new age books say without any proof, and in clear contradiction of everything that Jesus said. Of course you meant as an adult. Don't try to be a wise guy. People are intelligent in the forum and they get it.

Marsali
09-17-2005, 09:14 PM
Psholz,

I have a few issues with your post #32, but have just one question for now.
You wrote that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek, and that this took place in Egypt after the fleeing of the innocents. My question is, where did you get this info? There's nothing in the New Testament referring to Jesus as being ordained into this priesthood. There are vague references to Melchizedek in the Old Testament in Genesis and Psalms, however.
In doing a google search for'Melchizedek', there are references having to do with Jesus in some of the gnostic writings, but that isn't the bible.
If your going to argue religion with Christians, you need to have a bible on hand to verify your your quotes.

truebeliever
09-17-2005, 09:17 PM
Because Christianity is the only religion that says we need forgiveness and that we can't spiritualy develop by our own means. That's contrary to human pride. People want to be in control.

Exactly!

psholtz
09-18-2005, 02:36 AM
Marsali wrote:
Psholz,

I have a few issues with your post #32, but have just one question for now.
You wrote that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek, and that this took place in Egypt after the fleeing of the innocents. My question is, where did you get this info? There's nothing in the New Testament referring to Jesus as being ordained into this priesthood. There are vague references to Melchizedek in the Old Testament in Genesis and Psalms, however.
In doing a google search for'Melchizedek', there are references having to do with Jesus in some of the gnostic writings, but that isn't the bible.
If your going to argue religion with Christians, you need to have a bible on hand to verify your your quotes.
Jesus' ordination into the Priesthood of Melchizedek is documented quite plainly (for all to see) in the Epistle the Hebrews, chapters 5-7..

I never said this was connected w/ the flight to Egypt, documented in the Gospel of Matthew. I merely said that it's documented, in the Gospel of Matthew, that (allegedly) Jesus spent time in Egypt (as a child, at any rate).

psholtz
09-18-2005, 02:50 AM
Saturnino wrote:
psholtz,

To hell with John darby or Chuck Missler. You only have to look at the Bible, it is plain and clear what the Law is. It is also clear that Jesus knew exactly what it was. He made references to it all the time. I could start copying verses to you, but I think it is your job to get to the Bible and read it. That's what I did. It takes some work.
What I don't appreciate is the double speak you (and all the authors that try to disprove the Bible) use, saying that the Law is the Law but is not the Law...come on, make up your mind. Either it is what is clearly written or it is all a fable and a lie.
God's Law is - in so many words - God Himself, and as such, the Law is inscrutable, undefinable, unnamable and (ultimately) beyond the capacity of the human mind to fully grasp, although we can pick up little bits and pieces of it here and there (like "God is no respecter of persons" or "You shall reap as you sow", etc).

In any case, though, God's Law has little - if anything - to do w/ what passes among the Jews as the "Law of Moses" (Levitivus, Talmud, etc). These are little more than secular laws set down for the purpose of controlling and dominating the masses. OK.. that's nice. I suppose any society that values self-preservation needs something like that (here in this country, we call it the Constitution).. but just realize that such "law" is the "law of man", not the (Supreme) Law of God.

I can't believe that you really thought I equaled God with Satan. What I said was that Satan creates religions that mimick the peace and goodness of God, but deny God and Christ as a means of salvation. That means you try to live a moral life by your own efforts but according to Jesus end up in Hell, because you never wanted to acknowledge God as whom He is and in His terms. He makes all the effort, dies in a cross for you and you snob him. You say that the things He said are not exactly what he said, you refuse to follow his simple command to trust and obey. What else can anyone in this position want more from God ? Heaven it is not.
I do trust and I do obey.

About Jesus going to Egypt as a baby...come on, what a low punch. You said he went to Egypt to learn magic as many new age books say without any proof, and in clear contradiction of everything that Jesus said. Of course you meant as an adult. Don't try to be a wise guy. People are intelligent in the forum and they get it.
There's lots of "proof" for Jesus going to Egypt to get priestly training. One proof is in Hebrews 5-7, which documents that Jesus was ordained into the Priesthood of Melchizedek (which was only active in Egypt at the time of Jesus).

Another proof is that the teachings of Jesus are nearly identical to those of Plato, and Plato too (we know for a *historical fact*) was trained (philosophically and religiously) in Egypt. I suppose another explanation for the similarity between Plato and Jesus could be that Palestine had become deeply Hellenized by the time of Christ, and so perhaps Christ and the Apostles had picked up on a few of those memes, but realistically it's probably safe to assume that Jesus and Plato both got their teachings from the same *source*, and that source would have to have been Egypt (there's no other place on Earth where Plato and Jesus had in common).

Marsali
09-18-2005, 02:07 PM
Okay, Psholtz, you're right in that the priesthood of Melchizedek is mentioned in Hebrews in the New Testament - my mistake.

But there is no mention of Jesus having been ordained into this priesthood. It says, at the end of chapter 6 that..."where Jesus has entered on our behalf, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizadek."
Can't see this as any proof that Jesus was ordained into an order. The author of Hebrews, who is unknown, was speaking to Jewish Christians, and possibly using Melchizadek as a reference of how they should behave, as according to the interpretation in my bible, these Christians were in danger of apostasy from their Christian faith (they were slacking off).

psholtz
09-18-2005, 04:40 PM
Marsali wrote:
Okay, Psholtz, you're right in that the priesthood of Melchizedek is mentioned in Hebrews in the New Testament - my mistake.

But there is no mention of Jesus having been ordained into this priesthood. It says, at the end of chapter 6 that..."where Jesus has entered on our behalf, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizadek."
Can't see this as any proof that Jesus was ordained into an order. The author of Hebrews, who is unknown, was speaking to Jewish Christians, and possibly using Melchizadek as a reference of how they should behave, as according to the interpretation in my bible, these Christians were in danger of apostasy from their Christian faith (they were slacking off).
You might try Hebrews 7:16..

Marsali
09-18-2005, 05:00 PM
Hebrews 7:16 says (at least in my bible)...."who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of indestructible life."

Still can't see how this is proof that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek. Can you explain your position here?

psholtz
09-18-2005, 05:08 PM
Marsali wrote:
Hebrews 7:16 says (at least in my bible)...."who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of indestructible life."

Still can't see how this is proof that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek. Can you explain your position here?
Try reading the sentence in front of it.. that might help.. :-P

My Bible reads: "one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry, but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life."

As for explaining my position, my position is merely to share w/ you what my convictions concerning the Bible are. I have no desire nor intent to "convert" you to my beliefs or to try to convince you of the truth of what I say.. You're a free human being, and you have the right to believe whatever you choose to believe. God gave you the gift of reason for a ... reason (no pun intended!)

Saturnino
09-18-2005, 06:20 PM
psholtz,

You are taking a story that makes absolute sense in the way that 99% of people understand and trying to make a case with a bad interpretation of ONE verse. Of course Jesus was made a priest in the LIKE of Melchizedech, like he was a KING in the LIKE of David.

God is not an evil being who would give His Word to people in a way that only 1% would understand. Even children can understand the way of salvation, and that's the way God wanted it to be. Salvation is not an intellectual matter, it is one of faith and the heart. People reject Christ because of pride, not because they don't understand Him.

Your reasoning is gnostic. Gnosticism preaches that only people who have special knowledge can be saved, or develop spiritually, etc. It is the same trick Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults use to say they are the only churches who understand the Bible. Get a verse out of context, forget all the story that the Bible tells and hammer that verse until exhaustion.

If Jesus had to go to Egypt, or India, to learn magic, this would be in contradction with everything else He said. Egypt was the center of demonic magic and demonic magic was the main enemy of Jesus. It makes absolute no sense at all.

When Jesus was 12 He was already at the Temple teaching God's Word to the elders...He was God, He didn't need to learn anything, much less from a bunch of Egyptian Satanists.

psholtz
09-18-2005, 11:46 PM
Saturnino wrote:
God is not an evil being who would give His Word to people in a way that only 1% would understand. Even children can understand the way of salvation, and that's the way God wanted it to be. Salvation is not an intellectual matter, it is one of faith and the heart. People reject Christ because of pride, not because they don't understand Him.

Your reasoning is gnostic. Gnosticism preaches that only people who have special knowledge can be saved, or develop spiritually, etc. It is the same trick Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults use to say they are the only churches who understand the Bible. Get a verse out of context, forget all the story that the Bible tells and hammer that verse until exhaustion.
Apparently you never got the memo that Jesus sent out in Matthew 13:10-17. Go back and read those verses, over and over and over and over again, until the Truth of them finally sinks in.

If Jesus had to go to Egypt, or India, to learn magic, this would be in contradction with everything else He said. Egypt was the center of demonic magic and demonic magic was the main enemy of Jesus. It makes absolute no sense at all.
This is interesting speculation, but I'd like to see what your source for it. Given my reading of the Book of Kings (in the OT), Israel (and Judah) were more involved w/ "demonic magic" than any other group or culture in world history. Even King Solomon was a noted "expert" in summoning "magical demons" to do his bidding, and this is on the authority of the canonical Bible alone (to say nothing of the Apocrypha).

When Jesus was 12 He was already at the Temple teaching God's Word to the elders...He was God, He didn't need to learn anything, much less from a bunch of Egyptian Satanists.
If you can explain to me what the difference between the Son of Man, and the Son of God is, perhaps I'd be inclined to believe a few of the things you're spouting. Until then, I'm really not interested in what you're selling..

Saturnino
09-19-2005, 08:27 AM
psholtz,

You condemn yourself by your very words. Mathew 13: 10 talks about Jesus's parables. The reason is that for those who are elected by the Father, those who received Jesus, they would be understood. For those who had their hearts calloused, who have closed their eyes, they would be impossible to understand. The key to understand this passage is that if you close your hearts for what Jesus says, you will never understand his words. Exactly what you are doing. This passage has absolutely NOTHING to do with gnosticism or secret knowledge. It is all about truth being understood by those withh an open heart, those who love Jesus.

Keep reading, my friend, and see that in Mat 13:18 Jesus says that the evil one takes the truth away from those who didnt understand the gospel (and puts fake Sumerian texts, Jordan Maxwell stuff , etc., in its place).

Never pretend to understand the Bible by reading just one verse. The whole is important.

About Israel being involved in magic, of ocurse they were. But the Bible is honest: it tells us like it was. Israel was involved in magic but always was rebuked and chastised by God when they did it ! It is there as an example of what we SHOULDN'T do ! It is not because sinful Israel was doing something wrong that Jesus would do it too ! Do you see the logic ? Man, you have to read the whole story.

Son of Man refers to the human side of Jesus, Son of God to his deity. It is like refering to Bill gates sometimes as "the richest man non earth" and sometimes as "the revolutionary in computing". Same guy. Jesus was fully man and fully God at the same time.

psholtz
09-19-2005, 08:54 AM
Saturnino wrote:
This passage has absolutely NOTHING to do with gnosticism or secret knowledge. It is all about truth being understood by those withh an open heart, those who love Jesus.

If that's what you need to believe to make it through the day, then I suppose that's where your at. Like I said before, it's your right to believe whatever you choose wrt religion.. To me, though, your interpretation seems completely inconsistent the whole of Biblical teachings..

Saturnino
09-19-2005, 09:02 AM
OK, psholtz,

Let's do this: I respect your decision to believe in gnosticism.
But don't say I believe in what I believe because I am an idiot that needs crutches to go thru the day.

I was an existencialist before converting to Christ, and there is nothing more "tough" philosophically than that, as you should know.
I accepted Christ not because I needed something to take me thru the day, but because I studied it for many years and compared it with many other religions and philosophies. And of course, because of God's opening my eyes thru faith.
In fact, orthodox Christianity, with the full realization that it brings that I am a sinner and a bastard, totally depended on God, makes it much HARDER to face my condition than the false self assurance that I was born perfect provided by gnosticism or new age. Thinking that I am God would be a much better crutch.

psholtz
09-23-2005, 12:58 PM
Just to bring back this thread to the "Judaism is really just Zoroastrianism is disguise" meme, it's interesting to note that Dr. Makow has noticed precisely the same thing:

The Jewish Pharisees rejected Christ. They practised a naturalistic religion that turned Christ's message on its head. Man is God, rules the universe, and defines reality. We can indulge our desires. Dating back to Zoroastrianism, the Jewish Cabala reverses the roles of God and Lucifer and embraces occult symbols, rituals and blood sacrifices.

http://www.savethemales.ca/211002.html


It's also interesting to note that the so-called "Jews of India", the Parsis, are practicing Zoroastrians.. all the more interesting when you note how similar to word "Parsi" is to "Pharisee"..

http://www.pemcom.demon.co.uk/queen/parsi.html

truebeliever
09-23-2005, 10:34 PM
I was an existencialist before converting to Christ, and there is nothing more "tough" philosophically than that, as you should know.
I accepted Christ not because I needed something to take me thru the day, but because I studied it for many years and compared it with many other religions and philosophies. And of course, because of God's opening my eyes thru faith.
In fact, orthodox Christianity, with the full realization that it brings that I am a sinner and a bastard, totally depended on God, makes it much HARDER to face my condition than the false self assurance that I was born perfect provided by gnosticism or new age. Thinking that I am God would be a much better crutch.

You know, with just a little seeking...this central point is what makes Christianity "real".