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View Full Version : Video On The Origens Of The Illuminati/Mason Movement. "The Lightbringers" By Juri Lina.


truebeliever
09-25-2005, 08:22 PM
"The Lightbringers". A film by Juri Lina. An excellent presentation on the origins of the Illuminati/Mason movement and their longings for power through subterfuge and deceit. And not a Shape Shifting Lizard in sight! Thank the Lord! 28meg WMV File.

www.members.iinet.net.au/~falluga

freeman
09-25-2005, 08:28 PM
And not a Shape Shifting Lizard in sight!

I guess as long as you're not counting those Tubalcain pins...

truebeliever
09-25-2005, 11:12 PM
In the immortal words of the most famous Oz fish and chip owner..."Please explain"?

igwt
09-25-2005, 11:19 PM
truebeliever wrote:
In the immortal words of the most famous Oz fish and chip owner..."Please explain"?

lol. The clip is interesting, watching it now. Good on you for posting it!

freeman
09-26-2005, 04:31 AM
tubalcain pin (http://www.tubalcain.net/body_index.html)

Thanks for the doco, TB. Can't say I learned that much new, but reviewing the relationship between my "fraternal friends" and revolution certainly corroborates the role of Bush in America's future -- or lack thereof.

Saturnino
09-26-2005, 05:03 AM
Those Bozos use this Tubalcain pin so people think it is two balls and a cane (a golf club). Can it be more ridiculous than that ? What a bunch of immature suckers.

freeman
09-26-2005, 08:01 AM
Those Bozos use this Tubalcain pin so people think it is two balls and a cane (a golf club).

Only a golf club if their wives inquire as to its origin. Otherwise signifies some very pagan phallic worship.
A running joke within the Craft, but this snaky little charm does a lot of "shapeshifting", hence my pun.

Saturnino
09-26-2005, 09:43 AM
I'm dealing with a former 32 degree ex-Mason who is now a Christian. He recognizes that Masonry is incompatible with Christianity, but refuses to acknowledge that there is Luciferian worship there.
Is it possible that a 32 degree didn't know about it ?
What other sources besides Albert Pike and the book by Schonebelen I could refer to him ?

freeman
09-26-2005, 11:17 AM
What other sources besides Albert Pike and the book by Schonebelen I could refer to him ?


Offhand I can think of no other sources who let the secret slip directly, but any critical analysis of the oaths, symbols and history of Freemasonry is more than sufficient to make the corrolation. Like this excellent analysis of the 32nd degree initiation ritual:

Freemasonry Update (http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/freeup.htm)

Or the writings of Blavatsky, if you can get your ex-Mason to make the connection between her and the Craft:


And now it stands proven that Satan, or the Red Fiery Dragon, the "Lord of Phosphorus," and Lucifer, or "Light-Bearer," is in us: it is our Mind–our tempter and Redeemer, our intelligent liberator and Saviour from pure animalism. (Secret Doctrine Vol. 2, p. 513)

Stranger
09-26-2005, 02:13 PM
I'm dealing with a former 32 degree ex-Mason who is now a Christian. He recognizes that Masonry is incompatible with Christianity, but refuses to acknowledge that there is Luciferian worship there.
Is it possible that a 32 degree didn't know about it ?
What other sources besides Albert Pike and the book by Schonebelen I could refer to him ?

I have a close relative who was a 32nd degree mason (Scottish Rite). Truly believes there is absolutely no Luciferian worship with the Freemasons, seems hurt by even implying it. He is the kindest man I know. When I attempt to show him the Pike stuff, he says that might be Pike's view, but it does not represent the Freemasons.

Yeah, it is possible that a 32 degree would not know what is at the core of their club. He looks at me as if I am paranoid, and jokes that he is going to leave me his "Apron" and "pins" when he dies. I told him only if he wants me to burn them :)

Finn
09-26-2005, 02:50 PM
Hi all,

I am a new comer in the forum. It is nice to be here and follow many of the interesting posts.

I would like to comment on the quote from H. Blavatsky.


And now it stands proven that Satan, or the Red Fiery Dragon, the "Lord of Phosphorus," and Lucifer, or "Light-Bearer," is in us: it is our Mind–our tempter and Redeemer, our intelligent liberator and Saviour from pure animalism. (Secret Doctrine Vol. 2, p. 513)


One understands the quote better when one sees Lucifer and Satan as different entities. So Satan is one being and Lucifer another.

In a masonic tradition Lucifer is not entirely negative power. It has gotten its evil flavour from some christian writers along the history who have started to use the name Lucifer as a name of the Devil.

Even if there would be Luciferian worship in Masonic orders it is not accurate to assume that it is automatically devil worship.

Surely there is loosely Satanic masonic orders as well, like the notorious O.T.O.

Stranger
09-26-2005, 03:49 PM
Finn, are you saying that Satan and Lucifer are different entities? From what I have studied from Blavatsky, it seems apparanent he is one and the same. From a biblical standpoint, both terms difinitely refer to the same entity.

Finn, your starting to worry me a bit, your joking, right?? Talk to me, clarify. :)

Finn
09-27-2005, 02:33 AM
Hi Stranger,

It is true that Lucifer in a biblical point of view is connected to Satan and appears in the myths as one and the same character.

However, Lucifer, the light-bearer - the one that brings the light- referred in the bible originally to a 'morning star' which was used as an allegory of the king of the Babylon. That in the book of Isiah is - as far as I have understood - is the only mention of 'Lucifer' in the bible.

Lucifer and the Devil were melted into a one character around the 1st century BC.

The name 'light bearer' was not seen to fit the character of the Devil, so they (St. Jerome) changed it to 'Satan' that derives from Hebrew origin meaning 'the enemy'. However Lucifer as a 'morning star' stayed in the bible.

Blavatsky was the primus motor for theosophy. The cosmology of theosophy I myself find quite complex as well as their demonology.

As far as I have understood, Christ is seen as the ultimate good in the cosmos. On the other side we have Lucifer, the spirit of the heavens and - and this is the interesting bit - another devlish being, this time of the earth - Satan ('Ahriman', which is sometimes used. This name has a Persian origin.)

Now the purpose of life according to theosophy is to develop spiritually. In this one needs help from the spirit of the heavens, Lucifer.

Lucifer becomes devil-like if one consertrates too much on one's own personal spiritual development and forgets the good deeds inspired by Christ.

Also in the quote from Blavastky, it is said that Lucifer should save us from animalism, from the Satan (Ahriman), the evil spirit of the earth.

It all sounds like a $2 fantasy book, doesn't it? ;)

I hope this clears a bit what I ment in my previous post, Stranger. Even in the biblical sense all different devils are one and the same entity, historically they might have different origin.

So if a theosophist prays Lucifer to help her to gain knowledge from the higher worlds, it is for her spiritual development. And the more spiritually developed you are, the more Christ-like you are.

That's why I say theosophic cosmology is complex.

Please note, the above does not necessarily reflect my personal believes.

Shannow
09-27-2005, 02:52 AM
stranger,
my Grandad was a mason...would gert his family to test him with a bunch of words on a list.

They'd read them, he'd say "yep, I know that".

after he died, his friends came around to pick up the apparel, books, and locked bag.

truebeliever
09-27-2005, 03:10 AM
Yes, a close friend had the same thing with his Father. When they buried his father a stranger came up at the last minute and threw something into the grave. Not thinking clearly he let it go not realising it was a Mason thing. He has never forgiven himself for not throwing it back out and shoving it down the persons throat.

nomad
09-27-2005, 04:12 AM
truebeliever wrote:
"The Lightbringers". A film by Juri Lina. An excellent presentation on the origins of the Illuminati/Mason movement and their longings for power through subterfuge and deceit. And not a Shape Shifting Lizard in sight! Thank the Lord! 28meg WMV File.

www.members.iinet.net.au/~falluga

Excellent video TB ... you should get your own

site because you have alot to offer us !

Shannow
09-27-2005, 04:14 AM
and start a subscription broadband service...300MB only goes so far.

truebeliever
09-27-2005, 04:33 AM
Excellent video TB ... you should get your own

site because you have alot to offer us !

Well gee shucks...i would definately take all the credit but DRAK did send me the video...gracious ar'nt I? Only because he comes to this site...

Thanx for the tip NOMAD...that hosting service sounds too good to be true! 20 gig and unlimited bandwidth for $15 Oz a month. Will definately look into shortly.

Saturnino
09-27-2005, 05:33 AM
Being Luciferian is not something so unusual, if we think about it. All the New Agers, maybe 50% of the population now in several stages, are ! They think Satan is an invention of Jehovah to make his equal, Lucifer, look bad, that it was invented in the 1st century. The Bible says clearly that Satan is Lucifer and that he was created, never an equal to Jesus.

When the Masons ask for light, and then for more light, they are indeed asking for the so-called light bearer. Lucifer for them is a great source of light, a source of wisdom. There are several occult organizations here in Brazil that teach that too...when the person can be "trusted" then they say that this Satan stuff is just a myth, that people in the antiquity who worshipped Lucifer were just worshipping wisdom and light. But since nobody will understand this, much less the prejudiced Christian, we better be quiet about it. This is the essence of gnosticism, if we think about it.

The few who become Satanists are the ones with enough curiosity and hunger for power. They are told that if you REALLY want to understand the universe's secrets, you have to know the dark side. This wouldn't be a problem, because darkness and light are just the same thing...only Christians can't recognize that. Then they start dabbling with the "horned God". In Wicca, it works the same way. Next thing you see, you are sacrificing children and thinking you are doing them a favor.

And it all starts with this "Lucifer and Satan are different guys".

Finn
09-27-2005, 08:24 AM
Many of the central teachings in theosophy are indeed in the grey area.

Have you read any books by Paolo Coelho, Saturnino?

Stranger
09-27-2005, 08:37 AM
Thanks for the respnse Finn

You know, I read a citation from Secret Doctrine where she speaks about Lucifer being in the Garden of Eden helping Adam and Eve to be free from God. Thus, Lucifier and the Serpent being documented as being one and the same back in 4000 BC. Let me try and find it. Sometimes my ob can be so annoying, it keeps me from researching all this fun conspiracy stuff as quickly as I would like :). Get back to you a little later.

Finn
09-27-2005, 08:55 AM
Hi Stranger,

Yep, I quess the Serpent and Lucifer are the same entity according to Blavatsky whereas the Great Beast in the book of revelations is again the Satan character.

Stranger
09-27-2005, 09:26 AM
Here we go,

"One of the most hidden secrets involves the so-called fall of Angels. Satan and his rebellious host will thus prove to have become the direct Saviours and Creators of divine man. Thus Satan, once he ceases to be viewed in the superstitious spirit of the church, grows into the grandiose image It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God. Satan (or Lucifer) represents the Centrifugal Energy of the Universe this ever-living symbol of self-sacrifice for the intellectual independence of humanity." H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, pg. 215, 216, 220,245,255,533 The last line sits on a page headed Holy Satan

Blavatsky also wrote: Lucifer represents Life Thought Progress Civilization Liberty Independence Lucifer is the Logos the Serpent, the Saviour. " H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, Vol. II pg. 171,225,255

Alice Bailey also has many other similar quotes. Theosophists know exactly who they worship, no matter how much they try and sugarcoat it.

Finn wrote:
Many of the central teachings in theosophy are indeed in the grey area
That's interesting, I see it more black and white when you sort out their fluff, but then again, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer

I drive by the Theosophy's Headquarters everyday. I live by it :( in the burbs of Chicago. (oh no, now I did it. I revealed my location, here come the black suits) Creepy place, got some weird stories to share about that place, evil.

Finn
09-27-2005, 10:17 AM
Hi Stranger,

Very interesting post, thanks. Now I am confused because I am certain Lucifer and Satan are pictured as two different beings in the theosophic circles.

But again, there is some groups with slightly different emphasis branching out from the theosophic society.

I am calling the theosophic content grey because it claims that road to good goes through evil. That evil is a tool of good.

Even though I must say that the media that presents white middle class corrupt and meaningless christianity as a path to truth and salvation is as depressing and blind as the dusty doctrines of Ms Blavatsky.

I personally think all the major institutionalised religions will disappear within time, and hopefully rather sooner than later.

Don't you all think it is time for human beigns to take their responsibility of their own thoughts and not let some guy in a cloak to deside how they should live their life.

The history shows the biggest conspirator of all times is the catholic church. Now there is murder, plundering, secrecy and torture for you.

truebeliever
09-27-2005, 10:36 AM
I personally think all the major institutionalised religions will disappear within time, and hopefully rather sooner than later.

There was another guy who said something similar...

As for the Church? We shall let it wither on the vine. Adolph Hitler.

Luciferian would best describe Hitler. He trusted his own intellect at any given moment to see him through.

Don't you all think it is time for human beigns to take their responsibility of their own thoughts and not let some guy in a cloak to deside how they should live their life.

If the man in the cloak is "rightous" in the true sense of the word and speaking out against injustice and helping his flock strive for true spiritual values as taught by Christ then yes, you should let that guy decide. Through him the word of God is passed down to the flock. When I need a plumber I call a plumber. When in need of spiritual advice you call your priest. Not that there are too many worth calling these days...if thats what you mean.

The Churches are finished because they have sidelined themselves and have become social gatherings and forms of control instead of places of spiritual insight and transformation. Now the young head down to the Socialist meetings for inspiration.

You should not throw the baby out with the bath water.

The freedoms you no doubt appreciate have their base rooted in the Christian faith...political and judicial. You sound like a "Humanist" who believes the intellect of man is good enough. When times are good...yes, it will get you buy. But when times get tough the spirtually devoid rapidly fall apart and are easily led by the nose to somewhere they might not have planned on going.

Finn
09-27-2005, 11:42 AM
Truebeliever,

I do not want to sound like Hitler. And yes, he does seem luciferian, now when you mention it.

But please, don't get me wrong. I respect people's faith. I regard Christ as one of the greatest teachers ever set their foot on earth. Religious thoughts strenghten people and provide hope when times otherwise seem dark.

Too rarely, I'm afraid, are the great religions pro faith but money and power.

But I still think people must deside for themselves, how ever painful it might be. Otherwise we are no better than our prosecutors.

Draken
09-27-2005, 12:39 PM
Guys, in my humble opinion you seem to spend a lot of time thinking about Satan/Lucifer, and not really that much time thinking about God. I'm not suggesting anything more, than the simple notion that if you fill yourselves with God there's no place for the Devil.

Don't get too bogged down by trying to find out whether it's Lucifer or Satan who's the really evil one. Wouldn't it be easier to just say there is Evil in the world and call it evil as soon as you see it's evil?

The rest of the time one should think about and concern oneself with God. In that sense I agree with Ahmad when he said whatever occupies your mind most of the time, that's your god.

Why should I read Blavatsky, or Bailey to find insights and wisdom about the Sacred and the Divine when I can read the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas, Buddhist Sacred texts, the Tao, etc.?

In your search for the Sacred and the Divine, do you turn to Aleister Crowley too? I'm sure he had a lot to say about God and Lucifer, but is he trustworthy?

Is Blavatsky or Bailey trustworthy?

Why read secondary sources when you can read primary ones?

Stranger
09-27-2005, 02:49 PM
Wow, where to begin? Well.....

Guys, in my humble opinion you seem to spend a lot of time thinking about Satan/Lucifer, and not really that much time thinking about God
Drak, as you see, the topic of the thread is the Illuminati/Masons. The topic is not "what is your view of God" When talking about the origins of the Illuminati, the topic of Satan is going to come up. If you would like to start a thread on God, please do, I would enjoy that.


Wouldn't it be easier to just say there is Evil in the world and call it evil as soon as you see it's evil?

I do not agree with the New Age trend of referring to a factual Devil as a general concept of just "evil in the world". IMHI, that is very dangerous road to go down, plays into his plan (explanation too long and boring to post, but willing to if needed).

Why should I read Blavatsky, or Bailey to find insights and wisdom about the Sacred and the Divine
You are incorrectly declaring that we are (or I am) reading Blavatsky and Bailey to find insight. Good neighbor! Nothing could be further from the truth. I stumbled across their Lies quite by accident, however, when I further researched their garbage it helped me see that there really is a Conspiracy to wipe out the population.

when I can read the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas, Buddhist Sacred texts, the Tao, etc.?

OK, here it goes, this is going to tick off the New Agers here, but these are desperate times, so let the sparks fly. While attempting to be well intentioned Drake, that above quote will be well received by the NWO. We know that they are going to force a one world religion down our throats, a religion nicely described in your quote. No thanks, I do not need the Vedas, Buddhist Sacred texts or the Quran. The Holy Bible is completely sufficient, that is why the Illuminati hates that Book, and why they will go after the Christians first.

In your search for the Sacred and the Divine, do you turn to Aleister Crowley too?
What in the wide wide world of sports are you talking about??????? No where in this thread do I get the feeling that any of the respondents that researched this topic were doing so to get Divine insight.

If you want to start a separate thread about God, great, I'm there! That is my first and favorite subject.

Signed

Unapologetically Christian,

Stranger

Saturnino
09-27-2005, 03:40 PM
Yes, I have read one. It is Paulo.
The guy is an awful writer. All the attention he receives is because of his encounters with spirit guides and the philosophy they preach, which is basically new age.
He used to be a very disturbed young man, who was interned in a psychiatric house by his own family.
Then he became a hippie and wrote lyrics with raul Seixas, a rock star here, very involved with occultism and drugs (he died young of overdose).
After Raul died, he became a bum without goals in life, until Satan thought he would be useful for his cause. The secret of his sucess is totally spiritual...he has absolutely no talent whatsoever.




Finn wrote:
Many of the central teachings in theosophy are indeed in the grey area.

Have you read any books by Paolo Coelho, Saturnino?

Saturnino
09-27-2005, 03:44 PM
It is not because we talk in this forum that people here are always thinking about Satan. In my prayer time you can bet I am not thinking about him. In a sense you are right, thinking about God, His character and His will is the only way to go.

The problem is that this forum is about the NWO and for most people here, Satan is the one behind it, so eventually we have to talk about him.


Draken wrote:
Guys, in my humble opinion you seem to spend a lot of time thinking about Satan/Lucifer, and not really that much time thinking about God. I'm not suggesting anything more, than the simple notion that if you fill yourselves with God there's no place for the Devil.

Draken
09-28-2005, 12:39 AM
Hey Stranger!

If you want to discuss the Sacred and the Divine on a separate thread, I have posted several, but by now they are probably lost in the tsunami wave of information that has become CC.

It's so sad when you really REALLY Christian people dismiss the wisdom of other parts of the world instead of realizing that they too are believers in God. As if every non-Christian religion really in actual fact is a vehicle for the NWO. What nonsense.

Good to hear you don't read Blavatsky and Bailey to learn about the Sacred and the Divine. It sure sounded like it though.

Anyway, I can't be bothered to yet again tell relatively new members to the forum what I've discussed before with regards to the New Age movement. Everyone seems SOOO quick to dismiss everyone else's beliefs as New Age, pat themselves on the back for being on the "right" side, without seeing the very real possibility they might be heading down the New Age hole themselves.

I suppose you haven't read my 800 posts, out of which probably at least a quarter is on the issue of God and the Sacred. I don't blame you.

It seems CC IS getting too big and info is getting lost instead of found.

In closing, I certainly am well-intentioned but if you think you know better, what can I do?

Christians don't have a monopoly on God, simple as that.

Draken
09-28-2005, 02:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, Stranger, but you seemt to think all other world religions but Christianity is New Age.

Please answer me this: how could for example the several thousand years older than Christianity Vedas be "New" Age?

Saturnino
09-28-2005, 06:44 AM
Draken,

It is not true that there is no wisdom in other religions. There is.
It is not true that all non-Christian religions or all non-Christians help the NWO. Many people who fight the NWO are atheists. I always say that you don't need to be Christian to be against abortion, for example. You just have to respect life.
It is not true that non-Christians are not trying to find spiritual meaning. They are.

HOWEVER...Christianity is a faith that says that Jesus is the only way to God. I would be lying if I didn't say so. We have the right to believe in this as you have the right to believe in anything you want, including the idea that Christians are wrong. The NWO guys want to curb this freedom we all have.

This doesn't mean that we don't respect you as a fellow human being, made in the image of God.

Finn
09-28-2005, 07:20 AM
Saturnino,

It is interesting to hear thoughts of Brazilian person about Paulo (this time I got it right ;)) Coelho. I am living in Ireland and his book are quite popular here like in the whole western Europe.

I read 'Veronika Decides to Die' which I liked, a bit of black humor.

But yes, some people do ask if he is the greatest writer of 21st century or just a fraud who knows which strings to pull.

I guess the interesting question is why his books are so popular. One answer might be that people are in a search of something in their lives, a spiritual content, and well, the way Paulo Coelho writes is very easy to understand. The answers are easy and questions asked in simple way.

Saturnino
09-28-2005, 07:53 AM
Finn,

You've got it. But if we think about how he received exactly the words he needed to impact the needs of people, how all the right doors opened for him...he himself says that "the Universe conspires for you"...you have to think if there is not something behind his success.
After all, we are all conspiracy nuts here.

Draken
09-28-2005, 08:17 AM
True, Sat, very true.

But why am I being suspected for playing into the hands of the NWO everytime I mention the Quran, the Vedas, the Buddhist Sacred texts etc., by people like Stranger?

I'm sick and tired of it, frankly.

Talk about not allowing open discussion. "I need only the Bible and everything else is NWO and New Age".

What is this exclusivist idea that Jesus is the only path to God? Ridiculous. Where does it come from? A shallow interpretation of Jesus' words by people accusing me of "personal" and "satanic/Luciferian" interpretations of the Bible texts; those who think THEY understand the Bible and Jesus' words BEST.

Yes, I know Stranger hasn't accused me of such, but others have in the exact same vein.

If you think about it, with many thousands of years of Man and his notions on spirituality manifested in different religious cults and beliefs, if anything can rightly and correctly be called New Age, it's Christianity.

Christianity is one among those religions which is the farthest away from the Source, the Primordial Spirit, i.e. God.

Having said that, I think you people Saturnino and Stranger should know - IF YOU'VE READ MY VIEWS ON CHRIST - what I think.

As far as I know NONE of you have commented on my threads on the New Age false doctrine, NONE of you have commented on my Anti-Christ-Upton thread, NONE of you have commented on my views of spiritual resistance to the NWO. So I assume you judge and dismiss my tries at OPEN discussion without anything on your feet.

So far, very few have commented on those threads I think are the most important. Until that happens I'm not taking any criticisms seriously.

truebeliever
09-28-2005, 08:36 AM
I'm sorry DRAK...as a Christian I must concur that you are a filthy pagan.

I analysed a dream, cast a horoscope and consulted the I Ching plus my grandma's tea leaves...you are definately a pagan... :-D

But seriously...

Stranger
09-28-2005, 11:45 AM
Hey Stranger!

Whoa, take your blood pressure meds, if you blow a gasket, then I lose the enjoyment of talking with you.


It's so sad when you really REALLY Christian people dismiss the wisdom of other parts of the world
As opposed to what? Unreally, UNREALLY Christian?


Good to hear you don't read Blavatsky and Bailey to learn about the Sacred and the Divine. It sure sounded like it though.

This is still the strangest part of your response. No idea where or how you came to that conclusion. Your going to have to come up with a specific quote from me.


Christians don't have a monopoly on God, simple as that.
This is an interesting point. “Monopoly” is a thoughtful choice of words. It depends on what you mean by Monopoly. The Lord wants everyone (from all lands) to have a relationship with him, thus no Monopoly. However, He says to worship only Him (no other gods, exclusive), thus Monopoly.


What is this exclusivist idea that Jesus is the only path to God? Ridiculous. Where does it come from? A shallow interpretation of Jesus' words
This is an easy one. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.
Drake wrote: “What is the exclusivist idea that Jesus is the only path to God? Well, read that verse again Drak.
Drake wrote: “Ridiculous”. Read that verse again Drak.
Drake wrote: “A shallow interpretation of Jesus words”. Read that verse again Drak. It is as straightforward a meaning as there ever can be. Shallow? This is just one verse of many (many Drak) Those words by Jesus are a CHECKMATE to mankind.

You do not have to accept these words Drak, you can deny Christ as the only path to God, that is your choice. But you can never, NEVER again use the argument of where do these lame Christians get the idea of the exclusivity of Jesus because I just showed you. Never again Drak can you say “shallow interpretation” of Jesus words. Now you know exactly what He said, there is no room for alternative interpretations, and that is just ONE verse, if I was not at work, I would have given you many more straightforward meaning verses, and not open to some bizarre interpretation. Either you Except Him or Reject Him, there is no fuzzy middle ground, and that is not my personal interpretation, THOSE ARE HIS WORDS, not mine. You can no longer reject Him using that lame cop out excuse of saying “well that is someone else’s interpretation of His words” because now you know better, now you have read His exact words. Now the responsibility of rejecting Him as the only Path to God (which is your choice) is completely and totally yours. In the same way, the rejection on the other religions is completely my responsibility. I have researched the Truth, and I have made my Choice. Either in the above verse, Jesus was lying, was a lunatic, or is LORD. No other options, no other choices. I say He is LORD, you do not, your choice.

It may come across as if I am angry with you Drak, nothing is farther from the truth. You made a comment that if it is not Christian, then I say it is New Age. I say if faith is not in Christ alone, then one will be separated from God (reject it or accept). New Age or Theosophy is taking supposedly divine out of each religion, including Christianity, and mixing it into some happy feel good bowl (of crap).

Drak, you’re my guy. Don’t have a stroke reading this, I’m just being as direct as needed. Christianity is exclusive not because I say so, but because Jesus said so. I felt it so important to respond to you that I did not take my lunch break. Now I am Hypoglycemic and the room is spinning, anyone have any sugar?

Yo TB, what's up, hope all is well on your side of the world.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

Jesus’ checkmate

Draken
09-28-2005, 01:20 PM
Stranger, you simply haven't read what I've written on my views regarding Christianity and Jesus. What can I say.

So you mean to say that you have to go through Jesus' body and out his back to get to his father, Joseph? That is what Jesus said, that's what the Bible says, right that's what the words mean according to you, right? And why would I want to come to Jesus' father, Joseph? Because Joseph IS Jesus' father, right? He WAS born of Joseph and Mary, right? I mean, it is a really simple, straightforward meaning, Stranger. Read the words again.

Please.

Everyone interprets, even you my humble friend.

Who said I reject Jesus? You seem to think so - yet another proof of your not having read my posts.

Next time don't kill yourself telling me what Jesus said and what that means, read my posts before you "correct" my thoughts.

Just one thing though, but I have a feeling you will reject it just because it's me saying it. Well, it's not me saying it, it's <a href="http://www.frithjof-schuon.com/interview.htm">Frithjof Schuon</a>. Please, do yourself a favour and look him up:

"Question : You have written more than twenty books on religion and spirituality. Your first book has the title The Transcendent Unity of Religions. May I ask you how one should understand this unity?

Frithjof Schuon: Our starting point is the acknowledgment of the fact that there are diverse religions which exclude each other. This could mean that one religion is right and that all the others are false; it could mean also that all are false. In reality, it means that all are right, not in their dogmatic exclusivism, but in their unanimous inner signification, which coincides with pure metaphysics, or in other terms, with the philosophia perennis.

Saturnino
09-28-2005, 02:27 PM
Draken,

You ask for respect and then you come with this lot of attacks.
It is hard to think that you don't know that Joseph was NOT Jesus father, that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit. This was necessary because the seed of Adam and the sinful flesh are passed thru the man's line.

Christianity is plain and simple, in a way that even children can understand. What pisses off people is not your new age beliefs, but the crazy interpretation of the Jesus teachings that you come up with.

I remember seeing a TV program in Discovery channel where the guy, a PhD was saying that God didn't part the Red Sea for Moses to pass, that it was a wind that blew there. Yes...have you ever seen wind opening a river ? And if it happens once in a thousand years, would it happen exactly at that moment ? It would be better if the guy just said: I don't believe in it at all.

I see you doing the same thing. How can Christianity be apart from God, if it was God Himself who gave it to man as a revelation ? Take it or leave it.

And BTW, I never said you are a NWO agent.

Finn
09-28-2005, 02:42 PM
There seems to be some fire in the air... Hope it is not accompanied with a smell of sulphur... ;)

I see Christ as a great teacher. I real brearer of the light. There is other great teachers as well. Maybe Dalai Lama could one modern one.

But I always felt there is something dubious in Blavatsky's person. A bit like in Aleister Crowley's who still has many followers, even amongst the Christians, despite his openly Anti-Christ agenda!

However, I have a question. What is the relationship between NWO and New Age movement? For some people here in the CC, it seems, they share the same goal. I considered the hawks and tycoons in the PNAC and such more near to the practises of NWO ideals than dreamy New Age croud.

Saturnino
09-28-2005, 02:53 PM
The answer is always Hegelian dialectics. You put very evil guys on one side (Bush and co.), representing Christian values and the old way of doing things and extreme new age values on the other side. The result is some kind of compromise: world government, UN rule, a world religion, etc. But from the start, both sides were controlled and directed by the same guys. The role of new age is to water down and neutralize Christian values like absolute morality, monotheism, dependency on God, etc.

Finn
09-28-2005, 03:14 PM
Interesting, Saturnino, I never looked at it from that point of view.

Bush and his kind certainly are eating grounds from Christianity but of course so are the "you are God" folks of the New Age circles.

If humans were divine what's the use to dwell on earth?

Here in Europe it is quite fascinating but also scary to follow the development of EU. Here the control has been achieved by economic arragements made by the leading elite inspired by something not very peaceful and loving if you ask me.

Luckily The Constitution of EU was turned down by the people of the Neatherlands and France. Now they are trying to change the law that such intervention of expression of freedom will never happen again.

Draken
09-28-2005, 03:26 PM
Sat, I've said it before and say it again: I'm not asking for anything.

What are the crazy interpretations I come up with, Sat? I'm quoting the same words Stranger quotes from the Bible and applying them literally. I'm just trying to illustrate that your interpretations are "self-evidences" to you only. There's nothing "New Age" about interpreting texts; you do it, I do it. My understanding of the Bible are different from your understanding, because of my EXPERIENCES.

It seems ridiculous that I would have to say that I know perfectly well what Jesus' words were and what is generally accepted is meant by them. But like in politics or modern sience, what seems to happen is that a theory which ceases to be questioned and is generally decided upon to be "right" and "self-evident" without criticism becomes "true" and "fact" very quickly based on some sort of democratic decision taken by those who all agree with eachother, and on the basis of that "fact" then think they are in the right to dismiss others who don't agree with them. This in fact is the POLITICALLY CORRECTNESS everyone on this forum is so quick to agree with eachother to be the very evil they abhore and fight.

Your Discovery story is very cute, but it's got nothing to do with anything. It's impossible to refer to that story and imply that, based on that story, I should say I don't believe in Christ at all.

God gave Man Christianity. God also gave man the Ancient Vedic religion, Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.

You didn't address my points that Christianity is one of the newest religions compared to the Vedic one, and therefore could be understood as a genuine New Age religion. Any comments?

Taking Christianity - instead of leaving it - does not force me to reject the wisdom of other religions.

I don't care if you think that's a "New Age" belief of not.

You guys sure bring out the "pagan" in me! :-D

Harsh words.

Don't choke on a pretzel, Stranger&Sat.

"Christianity is at the root of the evil that has corrupted the West. This is the truth, and it does not admit uncertainty.

In its frenetic subversion of every hierarchy, in its exaltation of the weak, the disinherited, those without lineage and without tradition; in its call to "love", to "believe", and to yield; in its rancor toward everything that is force, self-sufficiency, knowledge, and aristocracy; in its intolerant and proselytising fanaticism, Christianity poisoned the greatness of the Roman Empire. Enemy of itself and of the world, this dark and barbarous wave remains the principal cause of the West's decline.

Christianity - take note - is not to be confused with what passes today for the Christian religion: a dead stump cut off from the initial profound impulses. Having disrupted the unity of Rome, Christianity first infected the race of blonde Germanic barbarians, thanks to the Reformation, and then penetrated so deeply, tenaciously, and invisibly that it infused current European liberalism and democratism and all the other splendid fruits of the French Revolution up through anarchism and Bolshevism. Christianity today informs the very structure of modern society (typified by the Anglo-Saxon model) as well as modern science, law, illusory faith in technology's power. The latter are permeated by the will to equalize, the will to numbers; by the hatred of hierarchy, quality and difference; and by a collective and impersonal vision of society, a society based upon bonds between mutually inadequate men, worthy of a race of slaves in revolt."

...

"Without a return to such a [pagan] tradition, no liberation will be possible, no true restoration, no transfer of spirit, power, and empire into the realm of values. But let not our "anti" give rise to misunderstandings. They [Christians], not we, are forces of negation. They are the ones who sapped Rome, contaminated Wisdom, and destroyed aristocracy in the name of a reign of sentimentalism and humanitarianism ruled by "enemies of the world". And they did so in order to exalt a superstition according to which God is an executed man and enslaver of other men whom he condemns to damnation unless "grace" intervenes on their behalf. No more foolish or absurd fable has ever been devised than that which treats paganism as a synonym for materiliaty and corruption, while Christianity is, instead, associated with purity and spirituality. Yet this superstition still manages to inform so much contemporary thinking!"
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/medit.html">Julius Evola</a>

Saturnino
09-28-2005, 03:40 PM
Draken,

the essence of Christianity is the cross, God coming as a man and dying for the sins of those who believe in Him. The rest, love, charity, etc., can be found in a dozen other religions.

Saying that you accept Christianity without the cross is the same to say that you cheer for Real Madrid soccer team because you like their shirt, but you really don't care who wins the game when they play. You only like some words of Christ, that's all. I'm ok with that.

But saying that Christianity promoted the decline of the West...come on. Man, I don't know where to start, this is trash of trash of philosophy. Christianity brought a sense of order in the universe, that allowed for the development of sciences. Scientists could try to find meaning in the universe because they believed in a rational God who created the universe. Not to mention the advances in human dignity, politics and law. You should read Francis Schaeffer.

This is a good example of the crazy attacks that you post here: I don't know what kind of thing you have been reading, and where you get those quotes, but it surely sounds like the Nietzchian superman / Nazi philosophy, saying that love and regard for the weak are bad things. This is basically the NWO reasoning to kill us peasants, and maybe that's why some people think you are a NWO agent.

Can you see the similarity ?

Stranger
09-28-2005, 03:41 PM
This conversation with you Drak is getting weirder and weirder (or is that just my interpretation, perhaps)

Am I going to go back and look at “Drak’s” history of thought on religion before I reply to a comment that you made me? Seriously, Drak, are you listening to yourself?

The only words that I am going to comment on are the ones you wrote in this thread. I QUOTED YOU WORD FOR WORD MAN, WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAING ABOUT? Did I quote you incorrectly? You made some bold statements (good for you, no problem with it) about Christians and how they behave and Jesus. Your were rebutted using your own stinkin quotes, and then you pull this “well you should have researched my past writings to know what I really think” What is that all about?

To review
1) We were talking about the Illuminati and you change the topic 180 degrees to “we don’t talk about God enough”
2) You went on to make some bold statements THAT I QUOTED BACK TO YOU WORD FOR WORD in rebuttal, and your defense is go back and look at your previous writings, because that is really how you feel. What??????????????? I could give a flip about that past stuff, we are discussing what you just wrote!

So you mean to say that you have to go through Jesus' body and out his back to get to his father, Joseph? That is what Jesus said, that's what the Bible says, right that's what the words mean according to you, right? And why would I want to come to Jesus' father, Joseph? Because Joseph IS Jesus' father, right? He WAS born of Joseph and Mary, right? I mean, it is a really simple, straightforward meaning, Stranger. Read the words again.


Wow, that is amazing stuff, dont know how to respond to that. This next comment is not about you personally Drak, but your thought listed above: That attempt of debate, or more fittingly intellectual masturbation, was so inept, so delayed, that is does not even constitute stupidity. Drak, you have far more resources and intellect to submit that response, your IQ is probably 50 points higher than mine. We will just pretend that quote did not happen.

Well, it's not me saying it, it's Frithjof Schuon
Did you say Frithjof Schuon, well that a different story then. Frithjof Freakin Schuon? I can see it now, standing face to face with Jesus on Judgement Day and I will say "sorry Lord I did not believe you, you see there is the Frithjof Schuon guy, and well he wrote 20 books, and his view of spirituality was much more palatable than Yours" Good neighbor Drak.
Thanks for rattling my cage Drak, your helping me to shake of the ol cob webs.

Finn
09-28-2005, 03:48 PM
Draken,

I would like to comment the quotes you wrote.

Christianity and respecting Christ can be two different things.

Bible and Christ are a dilemma, I feel, because, as far as we know, Christ never wrote anything himself (apart once on sand). In the bible there is only four books that tell about Christ, the gospels. The rest in the New Testament are written by Paul who never met Christ. And of couse the book of Revelations in the end written by John.

We do not know a lot of him and that always gives space for misundestandings.

Christ was a very unique person. He thought that one should love not only one's friend but also enemy. At the time that was quite revolutional. It still is, I think. And difficult, too. Look at the blood-thristy "Christian" GW Bush.

Saturnino
09-28-2005, 03:59 PM
Finn,

Christ said to the apostles that He had much more to tell, but they couldn't bear it. He then promised the Holy Spirit would come to teach them, as a continuation of His ministry. That's why we respect the words of the apostles as inspired by Jesus Himself. Jesus gave them the authority.

In the same reasoning, Paul met Jesus, when He was ressurected and was instructed by Him for 3 years in Arabia. The apostles themselves doubted that at first, but when they knew about the mighty miracles and the powerful testimony that Paul was giving, they accepted him and his authority as apostolic.

John also received the book of Revelations from Jesus Himself, as is stated in the text.

Finn
09-28-2005, 04:12 PM
Saturnino,

I do not want to deny the significance of the apostles. They were His companions and documented His doings on earth.

Conserning Paul I wanted to say that we have only Paul's word that he met Christ whereas the other apostles have each other's word to prove it.

Draken
09-28-2005, 04:12 PM
Wow - civilized discourse! I'm touched.

Watch and learn, Sat&Stranger.

Yeah, Finn, good points.

I could go on about Paul, I have a few questions about his motives. I'll leave it for now though. Maybe pick it up later.

What about all those scrolls and books NOT included in the Bible? Why not? Who decided? Why? What was in them that so did not fit with the plans of the early Church Fathers? Why were they considered so controversial that they needed to be suppressed and miscredited?

Does it not in fact look more like Christianity was subverted from the start?

Many of the Dead Sea Scrolls I hear are contemporary with Jesus. Are those considered forgeries by "true" Christians or are they applying their "correct" interpretations on the texts? I haven't read them (I'll definately read them) but I hear they give a completely different view of what the early Christian cult really was like and what it taught.

Regarding Bush, he's no more Christian than those Pakistanis or Arabs raping Western women are Muslims.

There's an ocean of issues to discuss on the topic of Christianity and Christ. If one is allowed to discuss openly, that is. :-)

Ciao for now, Finn.

Finn
09-28-2005, 04:26 PM
Draken,

There is a quite a few books written that are not included in the Bible (Apocryphal books). I have understood the reason for their exclusion is that these books do not include knowlegde about the salvation.

Draken
09-29-2005, 01:34 AM
What do they contain then?

Draken
09-29-2005, 01:44 AM
Oh, forget about it Stranger.

You just will not comprehend.

I give up. You win. I will burn in Hell for you not understanding what I'm saying.

You are right and I am wrong.

Please, forgive me, Stranger, er... Jesus, for I have sinned.


And no, Sat, I see no similarity, it's your misinterpretation of what I've been saying, but that's ok.

I am a Nazi, NWO agent, Fascist, Gnostic, Pagan - what else? - oh yes, occultist, magician, metaphysician.

I give up with both of you. You win, I lose.

Finn
09-29-2005, 02:13 AM
Draken,

According to my understanding, they contain some additional stories about Christ but such that have no significant effect on what we already know about Him, directions how to live good life, songs etc.

Historically they might contain a lot of interesting stuff but from a religious point of view they probably lack that.

I have read some of them but you know, they are not the most easy-reading material there is and I guess I am just lazy and dumb.

But they don't seem to contain any hidden information or forbidden secrets of the churches.

Maybe one can call them B material when the A material is in the Book already.

Saturnino
09-29-2005, 07:18 AM
Draken wrote:
Wow - civilized discourse! I'm touched.

Watch and learn, Sat&Stranger.



Give me a break, man !



What about all those scrolls and books NOT included in the Bible? Why not? Who decided? Why? What was in them that so did not fit with the plans of the early Church Fathers? Why were they considered so controversial that they needed to be suppressed and miscredited?

Does it not in fact look more like Christianity was subverted from the start?


Draken, you talk like you are the only one who ever thought about this issue. Books and books have been written to explain why certain books are cannonical and others not. The obvious answer is that letters from the apostles generally accepted by all the churches and confirmated by witnesses of Jesus are included. About the Old Testament, the Septuaginta, a huge translation to greek made 300 AC very much settled the controversy.

Don't you think that if Satan wanted to discredit Christianity the FIRST thing he would do would be to create a fake book ? It is not because it exists, never having been accepted by any primitive church (where witnesses of Jesus existed), totally in contradiction with the rest of the Bible, that we should accept it as proof.

Do you really want to get into this discussion ?


Many of the Dead Sea Scrolls I hear are contemporary with Jesus. Are those considered forgeries by "true" Christians or are they applying their "correct" interpretations on the texts? I haven't read them (I'll definately read them) but I hear they give a completely different view of what the early Christian cult really was like and what it taught.


What are you talking about ? The Dead Sea Scrolls are exactly the same as the Old Testament books. You must be talking about the texts of the Essenes. These have never been claimed to be Scriptures.


Regarding Bush, he's no more Christian than those Pakistanis or Arabs raping Western women are Muslims.


I agree, but that doesn't prove that the Bible is false.

Vampire
10-17-2005, 06:20 PM
it says ACCESS FORBIDDEN? :S

10-17-2005, 06:45 PM
What says ACCESS FORBIDDEN????

10-17-2005, 07:19 PM
ACCESS IS NEITHER FORBIDDEN OR DENIED!!

:lol: :-x :lol: :-x :lol: :-x :lol:

Marsali
10-17-2005, 07:35 PM
I think that this new forum member is referring to the original post on this thread. The link provided isn't working, it says 'access forbidden'.

Vampire, your user name is likely to put off some of the regular members around here.

10-17-2005, 07:39 PM
Marsali wrote:
I think that this new forum member is referring to the original post on this thread. The link provided isn't working, it says 'access forbidden'.

Vampire, your user name is likely to put off some of the regular members around here.

I'm so glad you stopped by, Marsali.

I was not being my normal, gracious self to VAMPIRE and I must admit; although I hesitate to do so, his username did put me up to it!

:lol:

Marsali
10-17-2005, 07:42 PM
That's okay, BA. The name Vampire bothered me a bit too.

10-23-2005, 02:11 AM
!!