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Draken
09-29-2005, 08:57 AM
Pietro Negri, in his article Knowledge of the Symbol, writes:

"According to Dante (Convivium, II, 1), "texts can be understood and expounded according to four senses": the literal sense; the allegorical sense, which Dante says, "is a truth concealed behind a beautiful lie"; the moral sense; and the anagogical sense. This anagogical sense occurs when "reading in a spiritual way way a scriptural passage, which in its literal meaning and in the things being signified points toward the things of eternal glory"; in other words, it is the innermost meaning of a text that, even when it has a literal sense, deals with topics of a spiritual nature. This latter sense must be clearly distinguished from the allegorical and moral senses, which in comparison with the anagogical sense, at least from a spiritual point of view, have a secondary importance."

With this in mind a text, any text, could have these four levels of meaning. Of course, there are many texts lacking this fourth, anagogical level, since it is not trying to convey any spiritual meaning.

Since my opinion is that the text of the Bible also should be subjected to these possible four ways of understanding a text, it follows that one could argue the Bible to be able to convey multiple meanings on multiple levels of understanding. There is not just ONE WAY to understand the Bible.

Jesus himself taught in allegorical stories, where the allegorical, not the literal meaning was the essence. Is it possible to see the allegorical, or even anagogical meaning of Jesus' words? I say yes, but maybe Literalist Christians would say no. This could be because they take everything at face value, like Nex for instance, not realizing the possible ulterior motives for a person being nice to him.

Of course, one can choose to take Jesus' words as they are, interpret them literally and be perfectly satisfied with the result. Jesus makes perfect sense taken literally. But does that mean there is absolutely NO meaning on other possible levels? Surely one should not deny the possibility for others to understand the texts of the Bible differently from one's own understanding?

Saturnino
09-29-2005, 09:47 AM
Draken,
What would be the useful of a revelation from God if this revelation didn't have a meaning that is easy to understand ? The answer is: none, it would be a waste of time.

The Bible is indeed full of subtleties, some better understood by the spiritually mature, but its essence is easy to understand, even for a child. The Bible itself says that it is not open to personal interpretation (2Pe 1:20), and that any other gospel should be accursed.

What you are doing is trying to sell us relativism. It is a totally different discussion that involves epistemology and the nature of truth, not only the Bible. One has to accept relativism before accepting your view of the Bible.

Why don't you for a change tell us what YOU believe the Bible is all about ? Who do YOU think Jesus is ?

Draken
09-29-2005, 10:48 AM
I will not tell you, Sat, because it's a waste of energy and time to say things twice, sometimes multiple times. I can't be bothered to write it down again, right now, for your enjoyment. Maybe at some later stage.

CC is getting so big I'm having trouble finding my own stuff.

I'm not trying to "sell" anything, Sat, please, you are so off the mark. I'm trying to discuss different ways of seeing things. I'm not disagreeing with you:

First you say this:
The Bible is indeed full of subtleties, some better understood by the spiritually mature, but its essence is easy to understand, even for a child

My presponse to the above statement;-) - I wrote it BEFORE your answer:
"Jesus makes perfect sense taken literally"

...and follow it up with this:
The Bible itself says that it is not open to personal interpretation

According to my Bible, it is unlikely that this letter is written by Simon Peter.

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=2Pe%201:20-21&version=9;">20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.</a>

What is a holy man but a person? The movement of the Holy Ghost has to be transmitted in SOME way, preferably via a human being?

Anyway, I find it questionable to refer to anything said by anyone else than Jesus, as far as that is possible to determine.

Could you find a quote attributed to Jesus saying that I'm not allowed to have my understanding of his words?

Just because you see only one way to understand the Bible, am I not allowed to understand it on another level? After all, am I not a different person and don't I have other experiences and insights than you; don't I think, behave or feel differently from the way you do? Is "a personal interpretation" to you, any interpretation that differs from yours and therefore not possible?

Could it not be, that the Bible is so well constructed, so as to be able to cater to anyone's spiritual and intellectual demands, regardless of spiritual level?

Bouncer
09-29-2005, 12:28 PM
Sometimes I find deeply personal significance in the Bible. It speaks to me in a way that others cannot hear. I also read with care, knowing that any attempt to alter the words or the interpretation is proscribed by the Book itself. Interpretation depends at least in part on hearing the Spirit as He leads you to the proper conclusion and what to do about it. The Bible is a book for action, not just reading!

Saturnino
09-29-2005, 02:49 PM
Draken,

make up your mind, buddy !

Of course you have the right to think whatever you want about Jesus. But I have the right to think your understanding is wrong. We CAN'T have two truths, two different realities for the same phenomena. One of us is wrong.

That's why I said you are a relativist, while I believe in absolute truth. Our reasoning differs in a deeper way than the Bible issue.

Adapting what the Bible says to your life is not the same as saying it is different in its message. It means you get a single, unique message and use it in different ways.

In fact, I believe there is a spiritual component in faith (God gives us faith ultimately) so I am not insisting. I can never "make " you believe by force.
I just think it would make a discussion easier if you posted in what YOU believe.

Draken
09-29-2005, 04:17 PM
OK, Sat.

It's late here but I quickly say what I believe, the main point.

Truth is much bigger than both your and my idea of it. You're holding the tail of the elephant and I'm holding one of the legs. Therefore you think you're holding a snake and I think I'm holding a tree trunk.

One of us is not wrong. Both of us is right.

We see different sides of the same, Absolute Truth.

I'm convinced of the transcendental unity of religions. All world religions convey the same basic ideas. They differ in their outer shell, their form, but their inner meaning is the same. They all use symbolism that is of a universal character and convey the same metaphysical wisdom, regardless of outer dogmatic forms.

I don't believe one religion is right and all others are wrong. Jesus was not the only one to teach what he taught, so when he says I am the Truth, the Way, the Life, he means that by acting like him the way is open to spiritual fulfillment. He doesn't say, "all those Nordic peoples are wrong" because their Tradition is saying the same thing Jesus said.
Hence, my opinion is that all religions are RIGHT. (But then again I don't agree with Barbara when she says Satanism is a religion, but that's another issue.)

If you are Hindu for example, the doctrine of Jesus would correspond to the way of Bakti, i.e. Love. But there are other ways to reach liberation than by the doctrine of Love, according to Hindu Tradition. The Way of Love is one way among a few others.

Another example is the born-again idea. It's a universal idea of spiritual awakening, the destruction of the Ego, in exchange of the realization and manifestation of the Self. It exists in all manifestations of Traditional civilizations. It is there in Islam as well as in Buddhism, the Tao-Te-Ching, the ancient Vedic religion.

So when Jesus says to Nicodemus "unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God"(John 3:3) I see a universal idea, transmitted through Jesus, who most definately knew what he was talking about, being what in the Hindu/Vedic Tradition is called dvija or a "twice born".

The same goes for certain pre-Christian doctrines like the Mithraic Mysteries, where Mithras killing the bull is a universal symbol of the destruction of the Ego, the false self, and Mithras' "adventures" is an inner journey of the soul, the ending of which is the killing of the Ego.

Hope that clears it up for you.

this
09-29-2005, 05:31 PM
Here's my two cents worth:

Penny #1: The Bible like any document should be taken in the context it was written, when it was written, in this case 2000 years ago.

Penny #2: There's a cult in the USA called Dispensationalism that takes selected verses from the Bible, mixes them up, and comes to a conclusion. It certainly avoids Penny #1 in reaching it's conclusions. Dispensationalism is a school of thought roughly 200 years old that at one time relied on the Scofield Reference Bible that added verses to the Bible to strengthen it's position.

My main problem, if anyone cares, with Bible study is when it strays from context. My understanding as it relates to the above, is that Jesus was sent to the people so that they could better relate to a God in their image. He tried to tell the people that they should not look for a warrior king in their God, but believe in God and love God without the pyrotechnics so espoused by the End of the Worlders of today. They should have faith in Gods power and will through spritual faith alone, not through physical proof. Any disbeliever can believe in God and fear him if given pyrotechnics, but such people are not spiritually enlightened by such shows of force.

It seemed that Jesus asked, in his case, where he was, that the Jews should refrain from their materialistic excesses and instead look within to join him in his spiritual kingdom. I need not say more I don't think.

nomad
09-29-2005, 05:54 PM
Saturnino wrote:
Draken,

make up your mind, buddy !

Of course you have the right to think whatever you want about Jesus. But I have the right to think your understanding is wrong. We CAN'T have two truths, two different realities for the same phenomena. One of us is wrong.

That's why I said you are a relativist, while I believe in absolute truth. Our reasoning differs in a deeper way than the Bible issue.

Adapting what the Bible says to your life is not the same as saying it is different in its message. It means you get a single, unique message and use it in different ways.

In fact, I believe there is a spiritual component in faith (God gives us faith ultimately) so I am not insisting. I can never "make " you believe by force.
I just think it would make a discussion easier if you posted in what YOU believe.


Who was Jeezus ?

The best salesman of all time ? ... after
surveying the market he reasoned that what
everybody really wants is a product called
eternal life. Pure genius.

The best communicator of all time ?

Using no microphone, without bothering to write
a single letter he is quoted everyday in over
1 000 000 buildings built in his honor.

The best actor of all time ?

He convinced billions that he was none other
than God himself in the flesh ... and his act
is still taking in the Oscars from people's
hearts all over the world.

The best magician of all time ?

Houdini and David Copperfield envy how he fooled the world then and for 2000 years since, how he came back from the dead.

The greatest programmer of all time ?

Bill Gates gave the world the most widespread
program for the computer ... but Jeezus created
the most popular operating system ever made for the mind.

The greatest lawyer of all time ?

Not only did he claim that he wrote the book
of laws known as Torah, but with his words and deeds he built the case that convinced billions of people that he indeed is its author.

The greatest doctor of all time ?

He actually did something that todays doctors can't seem to do with any illness or disease and that is to cure you. His last words were that ignorance was the greatest illness of mankind.

Not bad for a Jew boy.

Saturnino
09-29-2005, 06:56 PM
Thanks Draken,
If we set aside the cross and the claim that Jesus made to be God and that salvation only came thru Him, I could agree with you.
Love, fellowship, peace are taught by many religions. They could be parts from the same elephant.
But I just want to clarify that we are not touching the same elephant. You are touching a Jesus that is just a good enlightened man, and I am touching Jesus, God in flesh. Different things.

Stranger
09-29-2005, 07:29 PM
Sat, interesting observation. That is what I was thinking as well. I was wondering why a past conversation with Drak seemed to make no sense. Then it dawned on me, Drak, whether or not he may know it, views the world through a lens of moral relativism. Like hitting your head against a brick wall. Not saying your wrong Drak, just helps to explain my confusion with some of your writings

Draken
09-30-2005, 12:46 AM
Then, Sat, your thinking is exactly as narrow-minded as the Jews when they think they are God's Chosen people, and no-one else. "I'm in touch with God, but you are not."

I'm not surprised at your reaction. I indulged in your request. I was not expecting you to understand.

As for you, nomad.

What at typically Jewish viewpoint: to look at Jesus' actions as if it was manipulation or in terms of money.

truebeliever
09-30-2005, 03:18 AM
I am a neophyte when it comes to the specifics of the bible. But I have had a few insights of my own.

I believe Christianity to be the proper state for a modern Westerner to feel safe with God at this moment in time. That man must learn not to feel guilty for God demanding he forge a seperate ego, full of pride, and then come back to God humbly in proper relationship.

God wants grown up's, not scared little children worried about retribution...hence His incarnation, and message of Love and..."let you be as peacful as doves and as wise as serpents".

The more Pagan belief systems are for a culture still largely in the Garden Of Eden. A modern Westerner cannot go back.

Again, blame the Churches for the mess we're in. We would'nt be arguing if the Churches had allowed the common man and woman the tools to know God so he/she could know their God like origens and strive for their full potential.

Instead we have largely empty ritual for many and the young running off to worship every think tank ideology "they" can think up.

Whatever happens, we're going to have a "myth" we can all live one way or the other.

nomad
09-30-2005, 04:06 AM
Draken wrote:
Then, Sat, your thinking is exactly as narrow-minded as the Jews when they think they are God's Chosen people, and no-one else. "I'm in touch with God, but you are not."

I'm not surprised at your reaction. I indulged in your request. I was not expecting you to understand.

As for you, nomad.

What at typically Jewish viewpoint: to look at Jesus' actions as if it was manipulation or in terms of money.

Draken, I was pointing out that for a mere mortal

Jesus has a résume second to none and that should

be cause to question who he really was. In a few

months, the world's biggest birthday party will

take place again after over 2000 repetitions.

Interesting that he does not appear in the

Guiness book of world records.

freeman
09-30-2005, 04:31 AM
Who was Jeezus ?

The best salesman of all time ? ... after
surveying the market he reasoned that what
everybody really wants is a product called
eternal life. Pure genius.

Uh, yeah, nomad, but didn't the Jews kill him off instead of cutting themnselves in for a piece of the action?
...are you sure these are those same "smart Jews" that you keep saying have earned the right to keep tricking the goyim? :-o

nomad
09-30-2005, 04:34 AM
freeman wrote:
Who was Jeezus ?

The best salesman of all time ? ... after
surveying the market he reasoned that what
everybody really wants is a product called
eternal life. Pure genius.

Uh, yeah, nomad, but didn't the Jews kill him off instead of cutting themnselves in for a piece of the action?
...are you sure these are those same "smart Jews" that you keep saying have earned the right to keep tricking the goyim? :-o

Without the Jews the world would still be

in the dark ages ... Jews founded Christianity

so they should be thanked for giving the

world the most famous man on Earth.

freeman
09-30-2005, 04:51 AM
Jews founded Christianity

so they should be thanked for giving the

world the most famous man on Earth.

Oh, so you mean they killed him and let him resurrect himself just for the PR value...yeah, that was really clever...
(note to self: you know you've been in this conspiracy stuff too long when something like this even frames a scenario...) :-o

Draken
09-30-2005, 04:59 AM
Said true:
"I believe Christianity to be the proper state for a modern Westerner to feel safe with God at this moment in time."

I don't actually consider myself modern in any way; quite the contrary. Therefore, while I embrace Christ, I don't consider the exoteric version of his teachings as contrived by mainstream "Churchianity" to apply to me.

As for being still back in the Dark Ages; I'd be much more at home there. I don't consider it "dark". Gotta rush. Ciao.

truebeliever
09-30-2005, 05:13 AM
Science is here DRAK. It's not going away. The Sun does not revolve around the Earth and the Sun will rise even if the Aztecs are not here to offer a sacrifice to make it rise.

I am simply pointing out that the human race has developed a highly differentiated ego and can manipulate the environment like never before. God has granted these things. It is up to us to develop the maturity and connection with God in our day to day dealings to ensure a humble attitude in the face of such huge divine power in the hands of man.

There is a great scene in Jurassic Park where the whacky scientist makes the claim that..."you were so busy seeing if you could, you forgot to consider if you actually should."

There is no going back DRAK. Science and "progress" is a blessing. It's people in love with "power" who make these things dangerous and "tools" that could destroy man.

That being said, I will be joining you! Till the human race wakes up...i'm outta here!

Draken
09-30-2005, 07:17 AM
All true, but never forget that our time is the Kali Yuga, the Age of Darkness, characterized by "Sudras instruct the twice-born (Brahman, Kshatriya and Vaishya) in spiritual wisdom and , wearing the sacred thread, accept the worst type of gifts." (<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/caste.htm#TIME%20ASSAILS%20THE%20ENERGY%20OF%20RIG HTEOUSNESS">Verse 98 from Sri Ramacharitamanasa of Tulasidas,
Uttar-kanda</a>)

Like I said before, it's not the existence of these forces in themselves which is crucial here, but the fact that the knowledge and understanding to use these forces right, and hence the temporal power, is in the wrong hands, which is typical of the Kali Yuga. Therefore, in the age we live in, Science and "progress" - especially Western science and "progress" - is in no way a blessing, it's a curse. Moreover, it's a "progress" we can't do anything about because it follows cosmic laws whether we like it or not, understand it or not, realize it even exists or not.

The most crucial problem is the overtaking of the human spirit by the forces of darkness, which makes our time the true Dark Ages. We might have more material, physical "freedom", but our minds and spirits have been overthrown, and most people are not even able to perceive it. We are no longer able to perceive realities beyond the mere material, temporal, physical, sensual. Not even honest, upright, but naive believers in God of all denominations really have this perception. That is the main reason they have no choice but to "believe", because they have no access to the "tools" to be able to KNOW.

Some people are able to perceive psychic realities, but mistake them for communicating with "God", when in fact they are communicating with all kind of other-dimensional entities; Sat would say demons, Ahmad would say Djinns. This is the grave mistake made by the New Age; they take any "paranormal" phenomena and think it is a manifestation of a benevolent force or entity trying to "help" mankind.

I think the coming scenario will be the destruction of civilization as we know it at the hands of Man, like so many times before. The corruption and decadence of the spirituality of Man will be the cause of hubris, ignorance and arrogance that will unltimately turn the forces of Nature into the dangerous "tools" of destruction of civilization you refer to, True.

The ultimate trick of Freemasonry and the NWO is to trick hoodwink members into thinking that they are purifying their souls to become more "God-like" with the hope of becoming a "God", when in fact the opposite is true; they open themselves up to demonic forces that possess them and drag them down into the Abyss. This is the true nature of what is called "counter-initiation". All Freemasons and all members of most similar NWO secret societies have in such a manner been counter-initiated.

But let's not forget that there could be no counter-initiation without the existence of true, genuine initiation.

Truth, Beauty, Love

Saturnino
09-30-2005, 07:18 AM
Draken wrote:
Then, Sat, your thinking is exactly as narrow-minded as the Jews when they think they are God's Chosen people, and no-one else. "I'm in touch with God, but you are not."


I am narrow minded because I decided to say that the earth is round and you want me to accept that it is flat just because you have the right to say it is ?

Indeed, you have the right, but see how you DENY my right to an opinion.

This is the typical new age/relativist attack on people who hold to absolute truth and absolute morality: you are narrow minded. It works the same with many other issues. For example, I don't think homosexuality is healthy or natural. However, I respect people who choose this life style. Are they satisfied with this respect ? No, they won't rest until I say I think that their lifestyle is superior to heterosexuality. Id est: I have to lie, I have to give up my right of thought so I won't be narrow minded. If you support nationalism, the same thing: you have to accept globalism or you are narrow minded. I'm tired of this game.

Drak, you have swallowed the spirit of times sinker and hook.

Draken
09-30-2005, 07:54 AM
Sat, I don't come to CC to get your approval, and I'm sure you don't want mine. You can think what you want. I don't care.

Saturnino
09-30-2005, 08:08 AM
Drak,

In a forum you come to debate, not to seek approval. You post your opinion, I post mine. We all know that.
But whinning like that is not appropriate. Just say you got tired of dicussing.
I don't care what you think...I won't play anymore ! Buaaaahhh !!! :cry: :cry:

Draken
10-01-2005, 03:07 AM
Well, you still haven't commented on any of the issues I brought up so I don't really see any discussion taking place.

nomad
10-01-2005, 10:20 AM
freeman wrote:
Jews founded Christianity

so they should be thanked for giving the

world the most famous man on Earth.

Oh, so you mean they killed him and let him resurrect himself just for the PR value...yeah, that was really clever...
(note to self: you know you've been in this conspiracy stuff too long when something like this even frames a scenario...) :-o

What I meant was that the whole Christian

movement was spearheaded by sincere Christ

believing Jews, and the world is indebting to

these Jews for propagating the name of Jesus

at the risk of great personal loss.

freeman
10-01-2005, 10:56 AM
What I meant was that the whole Christian

movement was spearheaded by sincere Christ

believing Jews, and the world is indebting to

these Jews for propagating the name of Jesus

at the risk of great personal loss.

Great comeback. ;-)