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View Full Version : Theology Question: is 'Mystery Babylon' a reference to the illuminati?


Thumper
10-01-2005, 10:42 PM
????????

Thumper
10-02-2005, 11:53 AM
thump

rushdoony
10-02-2005, 04:49 PM
Conclusion
The power of Babylon the Great over mankind began in the Garden of Eden with the Fall. Babylon was not only the name of the first city-state at Babel and the capital of the Chaldean Empire, it was the name of Satan's spiritual kingdom on earth. When Adam fell, Satan took over the rulership of the world and ruled from Babylon. Thus, Babylon in the spiritual realm is the name of Cosmos Diabolicus, Satan's Cosmic System. What Satan practiced openly before the Flood, he administered through hidden mysteries after it. Mystery Babylon refers to the secret rites of Babylon, which are known only to the initiates. Satan's empire of Mystery Babylon will rule the world until it is destroyed at the Second Advent by the Lord Jesus Christ.
The human rulers of Satan's kingdom of Babylon are the Evil King and the Prostitute of Babylon. Nimrod was the first Evil King. And the High Priestess of Babylon and Jezebel are examples of the Prostitute of Babylon. The Evil King and Prostitute of Babylon derive their power from the Cosmic System. They are the slaves of evil, who seek to enslave others as they do the devil's bidding as cosmic evangelists. The world will not be rid of these two until the Lord Jesus Christ destroys them at the Second Advent.

The Evil King is a dictator who operates outside the Laws of Establishment. He usurps true authority, and takes away freedom through both lawlessness and tyranny. True love does not exist in his vocabulary. He is the personification of his ruler, the devil, who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

The Prostitute of Babylon is the enemy of Marriage and family. She usurps the authority of her husband and seeks to rule him. Her only love is money, the coin of the realm of Babylon. She infiltrates the Church and seeks to control it through the power of Ecumenical Babylon. She appeals to lascivious lusts to get business and gain power and feigns love as a cover for insatiable lusts and greed.

The Evil King and the Prostitute of Babylon are the enemies of the Christian and civilization. They are the enemies of those who seek Spiritual Rapport, which lies beyond Spiritual Maturity in the adult phase of the Spiritual Life. They deprive Christians of their Crowns. The immature Christian will never see these enemies. They will rule his life and his Church. He will fight the symptoms without ever seeing these masters of disguise. They can only be defeated by the Christian who advances to Spiritual Rapport. And Spiritual Rapport is only possible through execution of Bible Doctrine - not just academic study. Metabolization of Bible Doctrine is required for Spiritual Growth.

The Doctrine of Babylon the Great is taught from Genesis to Revelation. It is a major theme of human history. It is the ultimate problem in the Church, the state, business, education, Marriage, and family. Yet, the problem is invisible to the Spiritually blind. Whereas, it takes a strong believer in Spiritual Rapport to defeat the Evil King and Prostitute of Babylon, every believer has the power to stop them by sticking to Christian Integrity. The Christian who will not compromise on the basics of authority and love will stop them cold. Christians with integrity like Patrick and Brigid can stop these enemies.

Babylon the Great will rule until the Second Advent, but the Christian members of the Royal Family of God will be able to defeat them. Christians who take the high ground through the daily metabolization of Bible Doctrine will be able to topple the thrones of the Evil King and the Prostitute of Babylon. The world will not see the Christians rise, but it will see the smoke from the fall of Babylon. The reason for many of the problems in society are rooted in the evil of Babylon the Great. Only the Christian can make a difference against the ancient enemy. Every day the Christian persists with Rebound and Spiritual Growth is another day closer to the time that victory can be achieved over the arch enemy of God and man. And every fight that is won will be an opportunity for Eternal reward at the Judgment Tribunal of Christ. The Winner believer will reign with Christ in the Millennium and will be decorated for all Eternity as a testimony of the Grace of God and the faithfulness of the King of kings and Lord of lords.
http://www.biblenews1.com/babylon/babylon8.html

10-02-2005, 06:59 PM
I will try address this question as briefly as possible.

The term "Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth" comes from the book of Revelation. It has direct reference to the Roman Empire of the past. This does not neccessarily mean that occultists will not try to capitalize on the symbolism.

What theology students must begin to understand is that Dispensational Premillenialism is PART OF THE CONSPIRACY! It is the perfect misdirection device to cause people to look away from what is ACTUALLLY GOING ON RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM! While they look for 'Beasts' and 'Raptures' and 'Restorations of Jerusalem', the spiritual forces of Gog and Magog spread around the world. And they never know or realize what is going on before their blind eyes.

Premillenialism was begun by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in the mid-19th century. It is as false as false can be.

The only possible way to come to the truth of the prophecies in Revelation is to begin from the classical historicist view.

Now, that being said, we still need to address the place of the Illuminati.

I feel relatively safe discussing the Illuminati here. I don't know any of you yet except Shannow, but I feel that I can get away with stating the Illuminati as 'fact' without being laughed to scorn.

What does the Illuminati have to do with Revelation? Everything.

But, the Illuminati corresponds to the latter days in which we live. We are living after the 1000 year reign of Christ in heaven (viz. Rev. 20). The student will never understand what is going on in the world if he believes in Premillenialism.

We are living in the time of the Apostasy (viz. II Thess. 2:1-12). We are living in the time when Satan has been loosed fro his prison to once again go and deceive the inhabitants of the earth (viz. Rev. 20:7).

We are living in the times of Gog and Magog.

What is Gog and Magog? It is my position that these symbols directly correspond to the work of the Illuminati in the world at this time.

Gog is a Hebrew terem which means "roof". Magog means "from the roof."

During the days shortly after WWII, there was even a German Thule group which called itself The Brotherhood of the Roof.

They know exactly what they are doing. The rise of alien and UFO phenomenon is no accident. It directly corresponds to the planetary beings which came to the earth in the former days and corrupted it through marrying the daughters of men and producing the Nephilim (called the Sons of God, or fallen angels who followed Satan).

The Bible states that those of Gog and Magog would be as the number of the sand of the sea. They would surround the camp of the saints. And just when they are about to exact a total annihilation of God's elect on earth, fire comes from heaven and consumes them.

Briefly stated, Mystery Babylon was destroyed by the Kingdom of Christ in 410AD, when Aleric the Great sacked Rome.

What people tend to forget is that there is another, final enemy which arises after the 1000 year reign. This is the true meaning of the Battle of Armagedon. This is not a physical battle. It is a spiritual, sociological, mental and finacial battle -- because the Temple of God is IN MEN. In Christian theology the God's people IS His temple Paul wrote, "Know ye not that ye are the Temple of the Holy Spirit and that God is in you?".

I believe that the Mystery of Iniquity was fully revealed to the world by Aleister Crowley's Liber AL vel Legis. I believe that he is and was the Antichrist, the Son of Perdition. I believe that it is a direct fulfillment of the prophecy of Revelation concerning Gog and Magog (The Roof, and those from the Roof)

"Had! The manifestation of Nuit! The unveiling of the "COMPANY OF HEAVEN". Every man and every woman is a "STAR"."

http://bookoflaw276.tripod.com

Marsali
10-02-2005, 09:45 PM
fra nothing,

Are you affiliated with the Fraternitas Rosicruciana Antiqua (FRA)? Isn't this group associated with the O.T.O.?

10-02-2005, 10:44 PM
No. I said before that I am just a Christian. I wasn't joking.

psholtz
10-02-2005, 11:38 PM
fra_nothing wrote:
What theology students must begin to understand is that Dispensational Premillenialism is PART OF THE CONSPIRACY! It is the perfect misdirection device to cause people to look away from what is ACTUALLLY GOING ON RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM! While they look for 'Beasts' and 'Raptures' and 'Restorations of Jerusalem', the spiritual forces of Gog and Magog spread around the world. And they never know or realize what is going on before their blind eyes.

I agree w/ this completely...

John Darby is in my view, of the greatest (and most underrated) criminal masterminds of the past several centuries (working on behalf of - you guessed it - the British Crown).. and what's pathetic is that there's not a Protestant Church in America that has not been infected (to a greater or lesser extent) w/ his lies and heresies..

This is an area that really needs a great deal more public attention and scrutiny, imho..

10-02-2005, 11:45 PM
Correct.

Now I'll tell you something else about our dear Plymouth Brethren, since you have opted for the 'red pill'. John Nelson Darby was a nice blend of half lunatic, half false prophet. He was a notorious 'date setter' for the end. Strange...Christ said that no one knows the day or the hour but the father..., but Darby always knew, except after he was wrong 3 or 4 times, people began to have doubts.

Don't you just love those copies of Left Behind? Well, you're right...all this stuff came from the convoluted, ravening Zionism of the Right Rev. Darby.

Can I tell you something else? I'll give you one guess as to the tradition whence sprang one Aleister Crowley.

Is all this just happy accident?

P.S. I should probably add too that having won a debate on Christianforums.com against Dispensational Premillenialism with only three questions, I was summarily BANNED.

The excuse: Anyone who opposes Premillenialism must be a troll, and a pawn of Antichrist.

Well...THAT'S conveient.

Judgement begins at the house of God, not the Illuminati.

psholtz
10-03-2005, 12:20 AM
fra_nothing wrote:
Can I tell you something else? I'll give you one guess as to the tradition whence sprang one Aleister Crowley.

I actually don't know much about Crowley.. I mean, I know who he was (vaguely), but he's always struck me as a total screwball who could be safely ignored (for the most part).

Am I wrong in making such an assumption?

From whence did Crowley come?

10-03-2005, 12:30 AM
Well, let's discuss that 'screwball' Crowley - the man everyone discounted as a 'joker'.

Let's pause for a moment and ask ourselves a very important question: Is it 'safe' to ignore a man who...

1. At age 13 made a pact with the devil saying, 'Evil, be thou my good.'

2. Has such circumstantial evidence pointing to the fact that he was Jack the Ripper (at AGE 13!), that it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

3. Brought in the full consummation of the Mystery of Iniquity with his work Liber AL vel Legis.

4. Claimed to be nothing less then the real and actual Beast of Revelation.

5. Is almost single-handedly responsible for the New Age movement in ALL its current forms.

6. Is directly responsible or influential in the origens of the current O.T.O., Scientology, Wicca, A.'.A.'., Satanism, and Druidism.

7. And successfully 'took over' the entire super-stucture of Theosophy, Magianism, Satanism, Golden Dawn, AND EVERY ILLUMINATI GROUP in the entire world - all under the leadership of the 'Master Therion', the Law of Thelema, and the New Aeon of Horus.

Is that a safe position?

P.S. Yes, of course...whence sprang Crowley? Lemington, Warwickshire, Oct. 12, 1875, 11:30 Pacific-maritime.

Was living in Brompton district, London in 1888-89, due to complications with his kidneys.

Stange...Brompton is but a square on the map away from White Chapel.

What foul deeds happened in that little segment of the planet in the year of our Lord, 1888?

Ever see the grid page in Liber AL vel Legis? Ever wonder if it really had some significance.

I'd bet London on it.

Ask Big Ben, he saw. His hands pointed to the very hours.

Ask the stars. They will tell you the truth.

It's time for the dead to stand in accusation of their own blood.

Secrets will be revealed. It's time for the works of darkness to be brought to nought!

God damn the Aeon of Horus! Let it pass away with the noize of Fire, and earthquake, and flood, and scorching wind!

I am the Magickal Heir of the Beast. I am Frater Nothing! And I came for War! Let the 'Beast' and all the armies of Gog and Magog be taken together and cast alive into the lake of fire and brimstone!

psholtz
10-03-2005, 01:26 AM
fra_nothing wrote:
4. Claimed to be nothing less then the real and actual Beast of Revelation.

Supposing for a moment that he was the real and actual Beast of Revelation.. How would that change things, and/or affect us here today?

I also understand that Crowley had much to do w/ seeding that hippie movement that come along later in the 1960s, as did Bertrand Russell.. I've also heard that Crowley and Russell used to hang out together, but I'm not sure if that's true..

10-03-2005, 01:33 AM
I don't believe that he was the real and actual Beast of Revelation. I'm no Premillenialist.

I believe that Aleister Crowley was the real and actual Antichrist, the Son of Perdition prophecied of in II Thess. 2:1-12.

The Beast of Revelation clearly refers to the Roman Caesarian Empire.

So, why did Crowley call himself the Beast? Simple: He had grown up in the eschatological tradition of John Nelson Darby - he was raised a Plymouth Brethren.

The movement of Dispensationalism, even at this time, was spreading rapidly through Protestant churchs, which, heretofore, had generally been Reconstructionist - believing that the Papacy (Antichrist) had fallen, and thus the New Golden Dawn of the 1000 year reign of Christ had begun. This too is a completely false doctrine, and a misaprehension of the prophecies. See especially Jacob Beum in his Aurora for this view.

So, Crowley got all the mileage out of the 'Beast' image that he could, knowing the trend of the times, and intending to create all the chaos and press coverage that he possibly could.

psholtz
10-03-2005, 05:07 AM
fra_nothing wrote:
I believe that Aleister Crowley was the real and actual Antichrist, the Son of Perdition prophecied of in II Thess. 2:1-12.

OK... soo how does that impact us?

I guess what I'm getting at, is that Crowley was born, lived and died, but somehow for some reason the world is still here, still standing.

How does that impact all these alleged "prophecies" of Revelations that everyone keeps talking about??

So, why did Crowley call himself the Beast? Simple: He had grown up in the eschatological tradition of John Nelson Darby - he was raised a Plymouth Brethren.
Wow! Now that's an amazing piece of information, but you know, it all makes sense! Yes, I knew that John Darby was a Satanist .. LOL .. (in so many words... I mean he definately preached a very very perverse interpretation of Scripture), but to see that John Darby and Crowley are in fact connected, yes ... now it all makes sense!

:-P

The movement of Dispensationalism, even at this time, was spreading rapidly through Protestant churchs, which, heretofore, had generally been Reconstructionist - believing that the Papacy (Antichrist) had fallen, and thus the New Golden Dawn of the 1000 year reign of Christ had begun. This too is a completely false doctrine, and a misaprehension of the prophecies. See especially Jacob Beum in his Aurora for this view.
I'm vaguely familiar w/ Jacob Boehme's Aurora .. I've tried reading it on several occassions, but found it to be very dense and never was really able to slog my way through the whole thing..

How does Aurora relate to John Darby and Crowley?

10-03-2005, 06:16 AM
I appreciate that question. Of course there are many things that effect world events to one extent or another.

How does Crowley being the Antichrist effect the world? Well, I guess a general framework to answer the question would be something along the lines of 'Because it released the full energy of Satan upon earth to bring all of the damned against the Church of Christ, thus bringing everlasting damnation upon themselves and ruin, chaos and destruction to the inhabited earth.'

But, I still say that Paul says it better than I can.

SECOND EPISTLE OF PAUL TO THE THESSALONIANS

Chap. 2:1-12

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Oh, I simply gave Beuhme as a reference for Reconstructionist eschotology.

Saturnino
10-03-2005, 07:29 AM
Mystery babylon is accepted to be a religious structure that opposes God in the End Times. In my opinion it is the new age, mystery religion of babylon amalgama that is growing every day and will eventually be made the official religion of the world.
Many scholar propose that there is a religious Babylon and a Commercial Babylon, which is a nation. Of the many nations of the world, it is hard to deny that the US fits most, or all of her characteristics. Her main task is to force mystery babylon down the throats of the world and push the NWO for the antiChrist.
In this sense, the Illuminati are working for the coming of Mystery babylon, but are not her themselves.

freeman
10-04-2005, 02:50 PM
I don't know about Crowley being the anti-Christ...it would be easier to sell me on him being the false prophet, the Satanic incarnation of John the Baptist who prepares the way for the devil himself as John prepared the way for Jesus. Crowley did do more to "mainstream" Satanism with his New Age dabblings than almost any other character in the last century. I cede you that.
I'm most inclined to believe that he was just another useful idiot in the overal Illuminati scheme.

psholtz
10-04-2005, 05:28 PM
freeman wrote:
I don't know about Crowley being the anti-Christ...it would be easier to sell me on him being the false prophet, the Satanic incarnation of John the Baptist who prepares the way for the devil himself as John prepared the way for Jesus. Crowley did do more to "mainstream" Satanism with his New Age dabblings than almost any other character in the last century. I cede you that.
I'm most inclined to believe that he was just another useful idiot in the overal Illuminati scheme.
I would say that John Darby was the false prophet (the John the Baptist) and Crowley was the genuine thing.. :-P

55132
10-06-2005, 06:51 PM
REASONS TO BELIEVE IN THE

PRE-MILLENIAL, PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

OF THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

by David Chagall

http://www.lasthour.com/Pretrib.htm

There is a lot of confusion about the End Times, the Great Tribulation, the Rapture and the Millenium, when Jesus Christ is destined to rule planet Earth for 1,000 years. Because of prophetic confusion that stems mostly from Augustine, some churches teach that all these prophesies have been fulfilled in the 1st Century. They claim we are already in the Millenium, have been since AD 70--which makes those thousand years already well over 1,900 years and counting. And last time I looked, the lions were not napping with the lambs but eating them for dinner, and Jesus was not yet ruling from Jerusalem as the prophets have foretold.

So where does the truth lie?

Like everything else about The Last Hour, I will never ask true seekers after truth to check their brains at the door. Check out the Biblical prophesies, compare them to historical events, and be alert to the happenings of our geo-political circus called modern civilization. That's why I wrote this study which I urge you to research for yourself as you read. The one abiding principle I ask you to apply to Bible prophesy is the same standard I trust you apply to everything else--if the plain sense makes good sense, don't look for any other sense.

So pull out your Bible, grab pencil and paper, and go for it!


AMILLENIAL VS. PREMILLENIAL

Daniel 9:27 presents the most trouble to Bible scholars of all the verses in Daniel. There are two major interpretations of this verse--the Amillenial view which holds this prophesy was already fulfilled in history, and the Premillenial view which considers this last seven years to refer to sometime yet in the future.

Amillenialists say Daniel 9:27 occurred in one of four ways. (1) liberal amillenialists see its fulfillment in the 2nd century B.C. when the Maccabees were persecuted under Antiochus Epiphanes; (2) Jewish orthodox scholars ascribe the 70th seven to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.; (3) conservative amillenialists claim that the 70th seven, especially the last half, is not a literal 3 1/2 years but actually an indefinite period of time; and (4) some amillenialists also believe in seven literal years starting with the first 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry climaxing in his crucifixion, followed by another 3 1/2 years for which they offer no precise interpretation.

The amillenarist and orthodox Jewish views all share a big problem. They do not explain the prophesy in its normal, literal sense. No precise fulfillment is offered for major elements of the prophesy, notably the last half of the seventieth seven. Since no temple existed after 70 A.D., and obviously no temple sacrifices could therefore be offered, then the "he" mentioned in 9:27 must refer, not to Titus but to a coming leader of this same people who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., descendants of the original Roman Imperial nations--Italy, Spain, Britain, Germany, Gaul (France), etc. Clearly, that final prophesy concerning the treaty with Israel, its violation after 3 1/2 years and the "decreed end" has to this very day never been fulfilled.

However, the Book of Revelation among other Scriptures, confirm that this last seven will climax in the Second Coming of Christ. First, turn to DAN.12:6-7 (read)--in prophetic Hebrew, a time (shu-uh)is one year (shu-nuh). So here again, we have 3 1/2 years for the great destruction to be completed. Now look at verses 9-11 (read). How long is 1290 days? Exactly 3 1/2 years of 360 days! Finally, turn to REV.11:2-3 (read)--how long is 42 months? 3 1/2 years. And 1260 days is--3 1/2 years. Here in the Book of Revelation, Jesus confirms Daniel's 70th unit of 7, and its last half, 3 1/2 years, as the destruction of the tribulation immediately preceding his Second Coming. Now turn back to DAN.9:26-27--

Premillenialists say this refers to a future fulfillment, identifying "the ruler who will come" of verse 26 with the "he" of 9:27, the future world ruler. Normal grammar refers a pronoun back to the last preceding person cited. In this case, it is "the ruler who will come" of verse 26. But Amillenialists argue that the one who confirms the covenant in verse 27 is Christ Himself with the New Covenant in His blood. But the New Covenant clearly covers far longer than a 7-year span--nearly 2,000 years so far and promised by God to last eternally. So how can the Lord break it after 3 1/2 years in 36 A.D.? If He'd done that, all of us here tonight would be the most miserable of creatures! The only reasonable interpretation is that this covenant-guarantor is a future world leader, the antichrist of the end time, who is a leader related to the various nationalities of Roman Legions who destroyed Jerusalem.

This view harmonizes with other prophesies that the antichrist will halt temple sacrifices midway through the last seven years, a conclusion confirmed later in Daniel 12:7 which states that the final 3 1/2 years "will shatter the power of the Holy People" (by placing the abomination on the altar), and this will be the flash point for the Great Tribulation. The idea of a time gap for Daniel's last seven years between 9:26 and 9:27 has lots of Scriptural confirmation. A most important Old Testament one is in Isaiah 61:1-2 (read). These two verses actually prophesy both the first and second comings of Christ. If an entire Church Age of 2,000 years can be squeezed inbetween two verses, it certainly sets a precedent for placing a time gap between the 69th and 70th "sevens" of Daniel 9:24-27. As with most problems of prophesy, difficulties come when interpreters do not heed the specific details. Once we understand that a prophesy requires it be fulfilled both literally and completely, most of these problems disappear.

Summing up, the best explanation of this 490-year prophesy holds that the first 483 years were concluded just before Jesus was crucified, and an unspecified period of time would elapse before the Roman legions would destroy Jerusalem and the temple (actually 37 years to 70 A.D.), thereby fulfilling DAN.9:26. The final seven years must wait until a world leader appears who is related to the people who destroyed the temple. Which people did that? Imperial Rome. So the moment this leader who must come from these same people "confirms" or guarantees a peace treaty between Israel and her enemies, we who trust the word of God can know the name and identity of the person the Bible calls "the antichrist."

This interpretation literally fulfills the prohesy, while it simultaneously agrees with all other "end times" prophesies in both the Old and New Testaments. Taken as a whole, the "seventy sevens" of Daniel span the entire history of Israel from Nehemiah's time in 444 B.C. up to the time of the Second Coming of Christ. Sandwiched inbetween is the post-Temple or Church Age, only briefly alluded to in the Old Testament as in ISAIAH 61:1 and 2, the first verse describing a period of grace and the second "the day of vengeance." It also is alluded to in ISAIAH 65:1,2 (read) This describes God's blessing on a "nation..not called by My name" contrasted to a "rebellious people..who provoke Me in anger." Who are these two nations? Now turn back to IS.49:1-7 (read) This describes Israel's taking God to all the gentiles. When did this happen? From 45 A.D. when Cornelius was baptized, and thereafter both by the Jerusalem church but most powerfully by Paul's work and the universal Christian church ever since.



PRE-, MID-, AND POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

We know with Scriptural certainty that the Rapture of the Church is clearly separate from the Second Coming inasmuch as the Rapture is when Christ comes for His own people, while the Second Coming involves His coming with His saints in triumph and glory. The big question remains--how long before the Second Coming? There are a few different Scriptural analyses we can look at to answer what for the believing Church is a most important question.

One interpretetaion, called the Posttribulation view, teaches that the Church will be present on earth during the entire tribulation period, with the comings and goings of His saints taking place almost simltaneously at the end of the tribulation. What Scripture do they use to sustain their argument?

1. The Rapture and Second Coming are described by the same words in MATT.24:27 and 1 THES.4:15 ("parousia" = presence, or being near).

2. Saints are mentioned as being present on earth during the tribulation in MATT.24:22 ("the elect"), and that means The Church.

3. Revelation 20:4 describes a resurrection of Christian martyrs at the start of the millienium, so assuming this is the same resurrection that occurs at the rapture, these events take place just before the millenium, i.e. at the end of the tribulation.

4. Despite being subjected to the tribulation, The church will be supernaturally protected from harm while living through the horrors, and not by being taken out of harm's way, just as Israel was divinely protected from the plagues while living in Egypt.

5. The early church, they argue, held this posttribulation view.

Midtribulationists believe that Christ will come for His people in the midpoint of the tribulation, exactly 3 1/2 years after it begins and 3 1/2 years before it ends when the Lord returns with His saints to set up the millenial kingdom. Support for this position argues that--

1. The last trumpet of 1 COR.15:52 is the same as the 7th trumpet of REV.11:15, which sounds at the middle of the tribulation.

2. The great tribulation is only the last half of Daniel's 70th 7-year period, and the Church is promised deliverance only from that in REV.11:2 and 12:6.

3. The resurrection of the two great evangelists during the tribulation in REV.11:11 pictures the rapture of the church, with their resurrection at the middle of the tribulation after 1260 days (11:3).

Partial Rapture holds that only worthy believers will be snatched out of the world before the tribulation begins, while others will be left behind to suffer its wrath during a time of purging. This idea relies on verses like HEB.9:28, which seems to describe a remnant waiting for Him on earth, based on the idea that good works are a prerequisite for being in the Rapture. This contradicts 1 COR.15:51 which plainly teaches "we shall all be changed."

Finally, the Pretribulation view holds that the Rapture must take place before the entire seven-year tribulation period begins. Then, seven years later when the tribulation has run its course, the Lord will return with His people to set up His millenial kingdom. The arguments for the Pretribulation view are as follows--

1. The tribulation is called "the great day of wrath" in REV.6:17. Believers who know the "Deliverer from the wrath to come" in 1 THES.1:10 are given the assurance that they have "not been appointed to wrath" in 1 THES.5:9. In context, Paul in 1 THES.5:2 was describing the start of the day of the Lord, or the Tribulation, and so clearly seems to promise that Christians will be removed before any of that wrath is poured out. That could only be true if the Rapture happens before the tribulation.

2. In REV.3:10, the Risen Lord promised the Philadelphia church to keep them from the "hour of temptataion which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Pretribulationists interpret this promise, like the promises made to all the other local churches, as a larger prophesy made to the entire church alive at the time of fulfillment. This understanding comes from the understanding that this "hour of temptation" is in fact the tribulation because it is "worldwide." Notice that the promise here is not only to keep believers from the trouble itself but to keep them from the hour of trouble, which implies they are kept from being anywhere around this time. Since the tribulation will be worldwide, being exempted from it requires physical removal from the earth before it begins. If Posttribulationists are right, then this promise has to be understood some other way, because we know that many saints during tribulation days will not be protected from the persecutions while living through it. Turn to REV.6:9-11; 7:9-14; 14:1-3; 15:1-3. Clearly, many saints during this time will die for their faith before the Second Coming.

3. 2 THES.2:1-12 gives us an important chronological sequence. In v.3, Paul says that the Day of the Lord, or the tribulation cannot begin until certain things happen. First the apostosy must come and then the man of perdition is revealed. But this man of sin can't be revealed until something in v.6 ("what restrains him now," the neuter pronoun "hay") and someone in v.7 ("he" in the masculine form) are both taken out of the way. Then, and only then, can the man of perdition be free to do his dirty work. Whatever, and whoever, the restrainer is, he is now holding back the man of sin and Paul evidently had already told the Thessalonian church sometime before this letter the identity of the restraining "what" and "he" as set forth in v.6 ("And you know..").

This restrainer must be stronger than Satan, since the man of sin gets his power directly from Satan. Many commentators claim the restrainer is the Roman Empire of Paul's day with its highly developed legal system "which restrained." But we know no human law or government is more powerful than Satan--only God is. Therefore, whatever restrains Satan must be the Person of Almighty God, who Himself restrains. Many pretribulationists identify identify the Holy Spirit as the Person of the Godhead who work it is to restrain. Turn to GEN.6:3--(read) Whether Paul is here referring to the Holy Spirit is not totally clear. But the pretribulation argument using these verses does not require that certainty--

We know the Restrainer is God. Who is the main human instrument of God's restraint? Turn to 1 COR.6:19 (read)--now EPH.2:19-22. Jesus taught concerning the divinely indwelt church that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." MATT.16:18. Since the restrainer must be removed before the man of sin goes into action and the tribulation begins, and God Himself is the restrainer who as the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, only one of two alternatives must be true--either He must leave the hearts of all believers as they remain on earth to suffer through the tribulation, or when He is withdrawn, all believers must be withdrawn with Him in the Rapture. The Bible nowhere teaches that believers can be disindwelt, so we are forced to accept the second alternative. This doesn't mean the Holy Spirit won't be working on earth during the tribulation, but it will be like in Old Testament times when the Spirit does His work primarily by influencing people and not indwelling them.

Recently yet another view of the Rapture, the Pre-Wrath position, has been advanced by Marvin Rosenthal of Zion's Hope. This argues that the "restrainer" in 2 THES. is not the Holy Spirit but is actually Michael the Archangel. Turn to DAN.12:1 (read). Now the word translated as "stands up" is the Hebrew "Amad," which has a number of possible meanings, only one which is rarely used is "to cease." The pre-wrath scenario suggests that Michael stops restraining Satan, which allows the Great Tribulation to flower in all its fury. Briefly, this interpretation sees the Rapture of the church immediately preceding the terrible "Day of the Lord," the time of great world destruction prophesied in IS.13:1-13 (read). Compare this to what the Lord told us in MATT.24:29 (read). And REV.6:12-17 (read)--This Day of the Lord is the outpouring of God's indignation, fury and vengeance. The Pre-Wrath reasoning says that if the Day of the Lord starts at the mid-point of the 70th 7-years of Daniel, and the Rapture occurs just before that sixth seal of judgment is broken, then the Rapture cannot be pretribulational but actually pre-Day of the wrath of the Lord. One major weakness in this argument is its reliance on Michael the Archangel as being the one who restrains Satan. Turn to JUDE 9 (read)--here it seems clear that Michael does not have the power in himself to combat Satan directly, but must call on the Lord Himself to do the job.

Summing up, then, according to the best traditional Biblical exposition and scholarly thought, the Disappearance of the Church will occur sometime before the last seven years of Daniel's prophesy which starts with the peace treaty between Israel and her neighbors. This is the eschatalogical view called the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church." The question still remains, how long before? Turn to 1 THES.5:1-9 (read). Now to LUKE 12:35-40--(read). So now we know for sure, that the Lord is coming for us when? When we least expect Him! In fact, it should not come as too great a surprise if, this very moment, all of us in this room hear a shout from heaven, followed by the blast of a shofar, and tomorrow morning the neighbors will find an open door and a pile of clothes and eyeglasses lying on the floor.

We do have clear prophetic signs pointing to the outer limits of our Disappearance from planet earth. In the Book of Revelation, the Church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters, but is never mentioned even once as being on earth from Chapters 4 through 19 which describes all the destructions and outpouring of God's wrath, and completes the prophesies of events preceding the Millenial rule of Christ on earth. Turn to REV.2:11; 17; and 29 (read)-now REV.3:6; 13; and 22 (read)--now turn to REV.13:9 (read).



Notice, this is the very same phrase as before except that the church has been left out! Like all Scripture, this is not mere coincidence. In Chapter 13, read of the great world power that will emerge to rule the planet and the antichrist who will make war with the saints and overcome them for 42 months--how many years is that? Right, 3 1/2 years. I believe this clearly shows that the church will not be present for this time of testing.

From DAN.12:11, we know the terrible Day of the Lord is scheduled to occur exactly 3 1/2 years, 11 days of our modern calendar after the Jews are ordered to cease sacrifices in the Jerusalem holy place. DAN.9:27 tells us that cessation of sacrifices occurs about 3 1/2 years after Israel signs a peace treaty with her enemies. So we need to keep our eyes on the Middle East as so-called "peace talks" continue to develop. I believe in due time, this treaty will be hammered out in negotiations and Israel will be pressured into signing this peace treaty as prophesied in DAN.9:27. And then the doomsday clock will start its final ticking.

eddie
10-10-2005, 03:36 PM
http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/swift/swiftbab.html :-)
MYSTERY BABYLON is in America, MYSTERY BABYLON is in Europe, MYSTERY BABYLON is in Asia, it's in Africa, but it doesn't belong to you in your Civilization.
:-)