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Ahmad
02-14-2005, 11:38 AM
Peace all,

This is a life changing video, here is a quote from the messenger of the covenant, Rashad Khalifa (prophesized in Malachi 3:1-3) introducing the video:

"In the next 50 minutes i will share with you the real scientific discovery from deep space, and the message will represent the first physical evidence ever for the existence of God" Rashad Khalifa

The video was recorded in 1986. Rashad Khalifa was an Egyptian emigrant to America, he was a chemist Ph.d who God commisioned to deliver to us this physical evidence in order to purify the one religion once and forall.

He is a real messenger of God same like Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Watch and decide for yourself.

http://www.quranalone.com/media/WitnessAMiracle.ram

P.S: I am not affiliated with this website.

zanyzan311
02-14-2005, 01:29 PM
Ahmad, i'm dissappointed. This is the guy that youre always talking about. YOU sound intelligent. THis guy does not. He contradicts himself throughout the whole video. First he says we HAVE to study the text in its original language. THen he needs to translate it in order to put in to a computer. Which, by the way, in 1968 would have been nearly impossible. He must be a computer science genius and have access to the best computers in the world at the time. He talks like he was just using his pc at home. A computer at that time, to be able to perform that type of operation, would have been huge and only the top computer scientists would have had access to it. Other than that, how do we know his translation is accurate. Why did he say we need to study the text in its original language? If he needed to translate it to find this "code" out. Guess what, people have been looking for codes throughout Gods Word for centuries, and if you look hard enough youre bound to find something. Jesus was either a raving lunatic or the Son of God. No one would be a prophet who claimed the the things he did. So God was waiting for someone to translate His Word into English and the He waited for the inventions of computers. If this code was beyond human ability we would have never figured it out. I mean how can we understand something which is beyond our ability. He doesnt cite any examples directly from the Torah or the New Testament. He just quotes a Rabbi on the Torah. If God left us proof of His existence, we would no longer need faith, which in turn eradicates free will. I think this "code" is probably from the one who's name i will not waste time even typing. Dont come back at me with quotes from Q'ran either. I'd like to hear you use logic and reason to explain these things.

Ahmad
02-14-2005, 03:01 PM
Peace,

-"First he says we HAVE to study the text in its original language. THen he needs to translate it in order to put in to a computer"

He didn't translate it, he transliterated it and then entered it into the computer. For example, the first letter in Arabic is "Aleph", so he substituted it by an "A" because of the similar sound, the second is Ba, so he put "B"...etc. That's because there was no Arabic software at the time.


-"in order to put in to a computer. Which, by the way, in 1968 would have been nearly impossible. He must be a computer science genius and have access to the best computers in the world at the time."

He was a biochemist with a Ph.d, God qualifies His messengers before He gives them the message. As for the computer, Rashad Khalifa mentioned that he rented a connection with a huge computer, so that he can use it from his small pc through telephone lines, or something like that.


-"If this code was beyond human ability we would have never figured it out. I mean how can we understand something which is beyond our ability."

That's why God sent us a messenger to reveal it through him.


-"If God left us proof of His existence, we would no longer need faith, which in turn eradicates free will."


You are right, the proof works only to reassure the hearts of the Jewsih, Christians and believers that Quran is the final testament confirming the messages they recieved.

In chapter 74, 19 is mentioned (the only occurence in Quran), amazingly the miracle was revealed in 1974,

The Quran's Common Denominator

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

--------------------------

For more details by the messenger, see this 60 minute video stream,

http://www.quranalone.com/media/MathematicalMiracle.ram

zanyzan311
02-15-2005, 12:15 AM
Ahmad, as for the computer stuff, my brother has been working with 1's and 0's since the 50's. I showed him this video and his thoughts were that the mans claims via computing are highly unlikely even for a phd in biochemistry. Computers were not readily available back then even for phd's in other fields. Only the people that were developing them had access to them and they had little practical use. My brother is not a software programmer. He is one of the handful of people in this country that can work with 1's and 0's. As for the other claims, by 1985 there should have been arabic software. He should have been able to experiment without "transliteration" which by the way invalidates his whole arguement. Forgetting all that Ahmad, you have yet to mention anything contradicting my claims as far as Jesus is concerned. You once said on another thread that all verses where He claims to be the Son were Satanly injected. He gave no proof of this via his "mathematical code" and you have never either. This is a major flaw in Islam. Jesus is either a madman or the Son. No prophet of God would claim the things He did. I'm not trying to condescend Ahmad, you sound intelligent. All i'm saying is to sway someone on a topic as this youre gonna need some serious Proof.

ephesians6
02-15-2005, 01:36 AM
Jesus warned, "Beware of false prophets!"

Want to test a man who calls himself a "prophet" from God?
It's real easy.

A real prophet from God can't ever be incorrect or wrong in his prophecies--because a true prophet from God receives his prophecies directly from God--not from himself. Since God is the 'Alpha and the Omega' He knows all events from the beginning to the end of time, and He cannot issue false prophesies.

One error or mistake, and you've got yourself a false prophet. That was the standard given by God for His people to discern the fakes from the Real McCoys.

Mohammed was a false prophet.

When asked 'Where does the sun go at night?,' Mohammed answered, 'Into a murky pond of water.'

Perhaps this explains why Mohammed didn't offer many visions into the future.

You've been 'had' Ahmed. You're following a false prophet yet you're too blind to know it.
8-)

Ahmad
02-15-2005, 02:08 AM
Peace again,

-"Computers were not readily available back then even for phd's in other fields."

This is an exerpt from his "authorized translation":

"The books of Quranic exegeses unanimously agreed that "no one knows the meaning or significance of the Quranic Initials A.L.M., or any other initials."
I decided to write to the Quran into the computer, analyze the whole text, and see if there were any mathematical correlations among these Quranic initials.

I used a time-share terminal, connected by telephone to a giant computer. " Rashad Khalifa


-"Forgetting all that Ahmad, you have yet to mention anything contradicting my claims as far as Jesus is concerned."

The "physical proof" presents an evidence that the Quranic account of Jesus is the truth.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Ahmad
02-15-2005, 02:14 AM
Peace,

"When asked 'Where does the sun go at night?,' Mohammed answered, 'Into a murky pond of water.'"


This is from the satanic books "Hadith". Could we stick to Quran?

zanyzan311
02-15-2005, 09:31 AM
Ahmad i asked not to use quotes from q'ran. How does the "code" prove that Jesus's claims be the Messiah were injected by satan? And to think that he would have a working knowledge of any operating system or software that was around at that time is ridiculous. There was no windows 2000 or Excel. THese things were not easy to use, which is why i said he would need extensive training in the computer field. HE claims to just put the data in there and you get this blah blah blah. Ask anyone who knows ahmad, computers back then were not user friendly.

Ahmad
02-15-2005, 10:10 AM
Peace,

Actually, Jesus is called "the Messiah" in Quran, but it doesn't mean he is a god or a son of God, it is the biggest religious hoax ever perpetrated on man kind, it is a gross blasphemy to assign a son to God when He had no mate, He is far too exalted to have a son or need to anyone.

As for the computer, Rashad Khalifa was a biochemist, a scientist who used computer extensively in his work as an expert in the UN. However you don't need any doubts, the miracle ranges from the complex to simple, there are simple phenomenas that doesn't need any computer to verify, e.g: the number of verses, the number of chapters, the number of words God, Quran, the number of letters in the first verse that preceded all the 114 chapters (19 letters, "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful") all of these and tens of other modules occur in multiples of 19.

Check the second video above for more details.

zanyzan311
02-15-2005, 01:35 PM
Ok then so the code offers no arguement about the Jesus issue. Thats all coming from you. And all you have is q'ran to quote. just checking

ephesians6
02-15-2005, 09:53 PM
Ahmad says, "Could we stick to Quran?"

Of course we can Ahmad. There's more than enough lunacy written in that book as well to correctly portray Islam as the modern day equivalent to Hitler's "Mein Kampf:"

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”

Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”

Qur’an 47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Qur’an 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”

Qur’an 2:61 “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.”

Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”

Ahmad
02-15-2005, 11:43 PM
- Reading with a mindset like yours will certainly make a "Mein Kampf" of any book, even "snowhite"!

First, the following quote is from the satanic "Hadith" books, the manual of the terrorists.

Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”


I don't need to comment on such a satanic fabrication, as for the Quranic quotes here is the truth:

1- "4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”"


This is a distorted translation, here is the correct translation by a messenger of God (the late Rashad Khalifa), i can attest to its accuracy since my mother tongue is Arabic,

Health Quarantine

[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.*

*4:15 A woman witnessed by four people in the act of committing adultery on four different occasions, with four different partners, represents a danger to public health. Such a woman is a depository of germs, and a health quarantine protects the society from her. A good example of an exit that saves a quarantined woman is marriage - someone may wish to marry her, and thus protect her and the society.
----------------------------------------------

2- "Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”"


Ironically the original verse doesn't mention the word "Jihad" !, but anyway Jihad in the modern sense was itroduced by Satan through the satanic innovations of "Hadith", same as he introduced his racism into Judaism thru the Talmud.
Another problem with the modern Jihadists is that they take the verses they like from Quran and leave what they don't like. God condemned this selectivity. If the terrorsits read 26 verses before the above verse, they wouldn't have killed the innocent people (i doubt that they haven't read it though!).

Rules of War*

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

*2:190 All fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

[2:194] During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.
---------

In the above footnote by Rashad Khalifa he mentions two other verses 60:8-9,

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

-----------------------------------------------------


3- "Qur’an 47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”"


I will present you again the accurate translation for this verse by Rashad Khalifa, note that in my above comment(#2) the basic rules are set by God for war (war is allowed in self defense or to eliminate oppression), note also that the translator in your quote projects his own violence into innocent verses, compare it with the following translation:

[47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

-----------------------------------------------

4-"Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”"


Same goes for this verse which must follow the rules of war set in (#2) above. Here is the correct translation of it,

[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

--------------------------------------------------

5- "Qur’an 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”"


The original Arabic verse doesn't mention the Jews here! here is the accurate translation:

[33:26] He also brought down their allies among the people of the scripture from their secure positions, and threw terror into their hearts. Some of them you killed, and some you took captive.

Again war is permitted according to God's rules only (#2) above, not according to the terrorists Hadith satanic rules!

------------------------------------------------

6-"Qur’an 2:61 “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.”
Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”"


You or the author of the website you quote from can take the verses out of context however you like, but it won't change the original Arabic Quran that is proven and guarded word by word by means of a superhuman mathematical miracle (www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html).

Here is the correct context that speaks about historical facts that are also recorded in the Bible.

Israel Rebels

[2:61] Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your Lord to produce for us such earthly crops as beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to Egypt, where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.

Unity of All Submitters

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Covenant with Israel

[2:63] We made a covenant with you, as we raised Mount Sinai above you: "You shall uphold what we have given you strongly, and remember its contents, that you may be saved."

[2:64] But you turned away thereafter, and if it were not for GOD's grace towards you and His mercy, you would have been doomed.

[2:65] You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you as despicable as apes."

[2:66] We set them up as an example for their generation, as well as subsequent generations, and an enlightenment for the righteous.

zanyzan311
02-16-2005, 01:05 AM
Ahmad i agree with you that submission is the ultimate goal for us. You once stated in another thread that jesus claims to be the messiah were satanically injected and the "code" proved it. I just want to see that proof. I respect true Muslims and think that they produce much fruit. But, if you offer no proof then Jesus is the Son of God. Logic dictates that no prophet would utter claims as He did. Please dont quote q'ran. khalifa said he had proof of his code in the gospels but i have yet to hear of it.

ephesians6
02-16-2005, 01:30 AM
Ahmad, it's useless to discuss various translations of the Koran. You have yours, and the Muslim terrorists have theirs. But you both bow to and worship a false god which violates the Commandments and separates you from God.

God loves you and He wants to give you abundant life and bless you. He wants you to live with Him in eternity but you are a man who refuses to ask for forgiveness for your sins, and so "the wages of sin is death" for you.

You may fare better at Judgment than those terrorists who partially share your dogma but you still cannot enter into the Kingdom because you have rejected Christ.

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." Jesus Christ (No other ways, Ahmad!)

Don't you get it? Your sins are an offense to God. If you die in your sins, that's it for you--you will go on to eternal separation from God.

Heaven or paradise will not be home to sinful men. You can't enter through 'good works' or by bowing five times a day to Allah.

How many times do you need to hear this: Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the price for your sins because you and I are simply not good enough to enter into God's presence through our own 'goodness' or through our works.

Hell is your final destination but it doesn't have to be. You have an open invitation to eternal life and freedom from your sins--all you have to do is say, "Forgive me of my sins Jesus. Save me. I want to follow you the rest of my life."

Ahmad
02-16-2005, 01:41 AM
Peace Zanyzan311,

"You once stated in another thread that jesus claims to be the messiah were satanically injected and the "code" proved it. I just want to see that proof."


I never said Jesus was not the Messiah, the Missiah simply means anointed, it doesn't imply any divinity, the name is used for Jesus in Quran as well.

What the code proves is that every single letter in the Arabic Quran has been authored by God. No human being would be able to keep all these modules forming multiples of 19 throughout the 6346 verses without distroying the literal quality. However the Quran's literal quality itself is another mind boggling phenomena that nobody has been able to imitate it let alone the mathematical composition. The text was revealed around 610 AD which means that for more than 1400 years this secret was kept hidden within the text untill the year 1974, 19 as a number is only mentioned once in Quran and it is in chapter 74 which has amazingly the title "The Hidden Secret".

This should be enough evidence for those who have the honesty to confront it that Quran is the final message from God to all the human beings. God warns throughout Quran from "idol-worship", it's the only unforgivable sin, which means that if anyone assigned independent powers to something or someone (a creature) instead of God alone, he or she will not be readmitted to Heaven and will suffer the consequences of his choice, misery now and forever.

Now if you forget about all of this, and read the history books, they all point that Jesus was a mere mortal, as human as you and me, yet soon after he died Satan mystified him (using his God given miracles and birth which God gave him to test his followers if they will attribute them to the sending Creator or the created postman), turning him into a divine creature and then finally a god against his will. By Nicene 325 AD the matter was settled by a pagan Roman empror (Constantine) who wanted to unite his subjects around one ideology instead of the deep conflicts between the churches about the nature of Christ.

"Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that God is one in essence but three in ``person,'' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ``Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one'' (Deut. 6:4).
[ Encyclopedia Britannica, 1975 ]


Jesus never uttered such a blasphemy that he is a son of God, what Jesus said to his people is the following, which is proven by 19:

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.

[5:118] "If You punish them, they are Your constituents. If You forgive them, You are the Almighty, Most Wise."


For more about Jesus and exerpts from the bible, read this short article by Rashad Khalifa (a must read for the Christians):

http://www.submission.org/suras/app22.html


P.S: I am not afilliated with the above website.

ephesians6
02-16-2005, 01:44 AM
Zanyzan says, "Ahmad i agree with you that submission is the ultimate goal for us."

That's not true Zany--Our ultimate "goal" is to love the Lord, your God with all of your heart, mind, and soul. Second, love your fellow man as yourself.

Jesus said that those 2 doctrines summed up the entire Bible.

Love for the Lord and then for your neighbor is the "ultimate goal" not "submission!"

"Submission" is what Muslims say they do. But just "who" do they "submit" to?

They do NOT "submit" to Jesus Christ nor do they "submit" to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

"Thou shalt not bow down to or worship other gods."

Since they worship a false god--anything other than the God of the Bible is false-- that "submission" translates to "submission" to Satan.

Ahmad
02-16-2005, 02:02 AM
Peace ephesian6,


-"Ahmad, it's useless to discuss various translations of the Koran. You have yours, and the Muslim terrorists have theirs. But you both bow to and worship a false god which violates the Commandments and separates you from God."

There is a correct translation supported by God and there is a distorted false one developed by Satan, i believe everybody is drawn to either one according to his or her nature. As for the false god, what's your proof?


-"He wants you to live with Him in eternity but you are a man who refuses to ask for forgiveness for your sins, and so "the wages of sin is death" for you."


How do you know that i don't ask for forgivness!


-"You may fare better at Judgment than those terrorists who partially share your dogma but you still cannot enter into the Kingdom because you have rejected Christ."


It maybe a surprise to some but neither the terrorists not the "Muslims" follow God's religion! for more than 1400 years now they have been following the satanic books of Hadith instead of Quran alone, they worship God+Muhammad, which brought their defeat and will bring them more if they didn't repent.
As far as i am concerned, i follow Jesus and his disciples, praise be to God i accept Jesus's true message and avoid the false dogma, which is what what the test is all about.


-"I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me."


Although this translation doesn't seem to be accurate, however Jesus would have meant that nobody is redeemed except if he accepts his message, why? because rejecting God's message is the same as rejecting God. Jesus himself is not the issue, the message is everything.


-"Don't you get it? Your sins are an offense to God. If you die in your sins, that's it for you--you will go on to eternal separation from God.Heaven or paradise will not be home to sinful men. You can't enter through 'good works' or by bowing five times a day to Allah."


Do you think God will send us here without supplying us with a way to redeem ourselves "by ourselves" ? did you ever take a test without having a textbook? here is the final test of life and the final textbook, Quran, why don't you redeem yourself?
Why do you think i can't enter through 'good works' or belief? this handicap is but a satanic idea to stip us of any hope or chance for rdemption! the test is simple, believe in God (Alone) believe in the judgment day, and lead a righteous life (without obsessions, phobias or unjustified hates) and you will be readmitted back to Heaven. why do you complicate it for yourself?. Even a dirty shirt can be washed!. God is the Most Merciful, He forgives, but some people don't want this forgivness!


-"How many times do you need to hear this: Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the price for your sins because you and I are simply not good enough to enter into God's presence through our own 'goodness' or through our works."


This is the ultimate trick by Satan to convince us that the answer for our suffering is "with-out" but the truth is it is within, God gave you all the faculties and brains needed to pass the test "by yourself" why not use them? why blame someone else for your failure, why depend on a powerless human being who even can't here you right now!. Nobody can save you except yourself.

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.

zanyzan311
02-16-2005, 09:50 AM
Ephesians6, loving the lord with all your heart and ONLY Him will lead you to submit to His Will. To love Him above all else, means when He asks you to do something you do it no matter what. Like Abraham being willing to sacrifice his own son. That is submission. NOt that we are all asked to do something like that. But we have3 to be prepared to take on whatever He has ready for our lives.

Ahmad your knowledge of the new testament is somewhat lacking as is the history surrounding the church. Jesus does claim to be the Son of God. Moreover, what of all the prophesy in the old testament of a jewish messiah. He fulfilled all those prophecies. jesus said too many things that dont agree with the q'ran. He preached to love your enemies. Not smite them. As for the Trinity, I have some problems with that myself. Some think Jesus= God. Even Jesus prayed our Father. He also sits at the right hand. When talking about the end times He said only the Father knows when it will happen, not even the Son. So they are different and God is in charge above all else. However, Jesus is the way and only to bridge the gap between us and God. He is of the same essence of God. Whatever that may be

Ahmad
02-16-2005, 10:37 AM
Peace Zanyzan311,

You are totally free to believe what you want my friend, i really can't choose for you...all i can do is to remind you and then the test is yours.

What we really need is to "confront" ourselves. Meaning that we can not afford to settle with half truths, why? because it's our eternal life that is in stake!. Can you imagine that our choices today affect us for eternity! can you even start to imagine eternal neverending life in total misery!

Anyway i will say it again, Jesus never uttered he was a physical son of God, if he said that he would have meant it in the spiritual allegorical sense which was lost in translation,

All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
[ Romans 8:14 ]


Please think carefully about the above verse, are we all divine christs ?

The flow with "Jesus is the son of God" is very clear, do you think the Creator of the Heavens and earth would like partners in his kingship?.

With all due respect, what you say is no different, it's a gross blasphemy and you should wake up the sooner the better,

zanyan311 said: "However, Jesus is the way and only to bridge the gap between us and God."

This is a satanic trick that i hope you haven't bought yet, why? because there could never be such a "bridge", God won't make it that difficult for us to redeem ourselves, we don't need a more "pure" human being to defend us, it is our responsbility and there is no escape from it. Don't blame it on Jesus, be a real man or a woman and stand in the court for yourself, state your case clearly and say the truth, even if it condemns you, but don't blame it on another human being who was and is totally powerless to help even himself.

Where is the "trinity" or the devinity of Christ in the Bible?

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

ephesians6
02-16-2005, 06:03 PM
Zany I'm so happy to hear that you've placed your faith in Christ. Witness to your unsaved friends and family because our time here may be short. Witness online as well if you can.

And don't allow doubts about the Trinity to cause you to stumble. We, as mere men, are extremely limited in our ability to fathom God's totality--in fact, we can't.

Just remember that the Trinity was present in the very beginning, "In the beginning Elohim, (which means three).."

The pagans and idol worshipers on this forum can never understand our Lord because they do not belong to Him. They do NOT know His voice.

Because they have rejected the truth of the scriptures, and rejected Jesus, God has allowed Satan to deceive them.

Their place will be in the darkness with the one that deceived them.

zanyzan311
02-16-2005, 06:09 PM
Ephesians i am a believer. however its really not our place to decide who goes where. I'm not out to judge Ahmad, I just think he is being misled so we are discussing it. Surely it is not my place to condemn those who believe differently or dont believe at all. Leave that to all the misled right wing evangelicals.

zanyzan311
02-16-2005, 06:15 PM
And by the way ahmad, there was no software for that type of analysis in 1968. He would have had to write his own, which was difficult even for the experts in the computer industry. Not only that, but computers were not available to those in the sciences at that time. Physics maybe. Besides those that built them, corporations had a couple as did the government. Not even mathematicians had ready access at that point. I'm just saying to look into the matter a little as opposed to blindly believing. My source- my brother- has been working on computers since the 50's. since the beginning more or less of th ecomputer industry.

ephesians6
02-16-2005, 11:12 PM
Zany if a man rejects Christ, then he has already condemned himself to judgment--I have no power to condemn anyone; that domain is Christ's alone.

Pointing out the exclusiveness of Christ's redeeming nature to the lost is neither "judgmental" nor "condemning"--it's merely confirming and proclaiming the Word.

I do not condemn Ahmad; I'm praying that he'll accept Jesus as His Savior, but if he rejects Christ, it is not "judgmental" to tell him what awaits him.

If Ahmad was driving on a dangerous and curvy road at night with a bridge out up ahead of him, would it be "judgmental" of me to warn him of the danger ahead by jumping up and down, and screaming at him?

For some odd reason many of those who claim to be christians are simply remaining silent as our fellow humanity plunge off of their own spiritual bridges into their deaths!

Jesus told us to "go unto all the world and preach the Gospel" to the lost.

Jesus said, "If you love me you'll obey me."

Ahmad
02-17-2005, 06:06 AM
There is no argument between me and you,

We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him alone we are submitters.


P.S: For those who wish to see the messenger's computer: The Computer Speaks (http://www.quranalone.com/media/ComputerSpeaks.ram)

ephesians6
02-18-2005, 01:50 AM
Ahmad, I want to say to you that while we may disagree on many points, we are both God's children and He loves you and I--and everyone on this forum equally.

My Lord, Jesus, directs His followers to love all men and to pray for them. Sometimes I don't do such a great job at showing love towards my neighbors. In my zeal to see you become saved, perhaps I've insulted you and criticized you unfairly. This is not the way Jesus wants me to behave with others.

If this is so, then accept my apology. If I have represented Christ poorly to you, then that is a terrible thing and I will have to answer for that.

Just remember that Jesus was perfect but unfortunately His followers aren't.