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freeman
11-15-2005, 10:40 AM
Here is a pertinent and compelling excerpt from Thanks For the Memories, the autobiography written by Brice Taylor (Susan Ford) describing her life as a mind-controlled sex slave for the Illuminati wherein she touches on the role of Freemasonry in the overall NWO plan (thanks or the online link, Saturnino):

Chapter Thirty-five: Secret Societies

What's the Secret Goal at the Top of Freemasonry?
Answer: A Luciferian New World Order

Living in and amongst those planning the New World Order as their programmed mind file, meticulously recording their deeds and activities, has allowed me to be here now to report their plan to you. Their agenda includes keeping the populations of the world under control as they hold the key to secret knowledge. Knowledge is power. If you are uninformed as to their secret agenda and especially of their use of advanced mind control technology in order to bring about their plan, then you can't protect yourself or begin to work toward stopping this plan.

If there is any one thing I could tell you about the inner workings of the New World Order it's that it is subtle, organized and calculated. This plan has an agenda that spans generations with obvious long-term goals--as long term as the intergenerational abuse pattern that was passed down through my family creating within our generational line Multiple Personality Disorder.

And, I can tell you that the New World Order plan serves a belief system that is based on power and control, confusion, greed, and the use and manipulation of others, most often without their consent. The system's "cogs" are well oiled and greased, and are interlaced and protected by mens' secret societies like the Masons, who have at the pinnacle of their organization a belief in secret knowledge. The Masonic order is funded from the bottom up by first through third degree Masons, hoodwinked and mesmerized into working for the agenda of those members at the top-an agenda they work "toward" knowing but they aren't allowed to know until they arrive at the top through oath and initiation to possess the elusive "secret knowledge."

Found in Morals and Dogma, the cornerstone of every higher Mason's library, in the 32d Chapter (Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret) are subtle hints of the character of this 'secret knowledge,' specifically geared toward the 32d Degree Mason (Master of the Royal Secret). Here, in the guise of acknowledging a Universal Equilibrium between good and evil, as the natural balance and harmony of earthly existence, it promotes the acceptance of the belief that evil actions are a necessary counter-balance to good ones and asks the aspirant to accept this dichotomy in human affairs. From this sublime seed of half-truth, evil is allowed flourish within the protective secrecy of the organization.

To gain this knowledge, a man must go through a series of Luciferian initiations and, as he progresses toward the top, he finds that he is trapped into keeping the secret, through threat of consequences, including death. Once gaining the upper levels, he believes that he or his family will be killed if he should ever divulge the secret knowledge. This initation where he is ultimately compromised involves blood ritual and rape. Now many of these men have had to "sell their soul to the devil," taking an oath through satanic ritual to serve and protect their fellow lodge brother regardless of the deeds done in order to accomplish that. Through the secret handshakes and signals they give to each other, they alert one another to the needs of a brother and thereby this fellow member who may be in court for charges of criminal activity, or apprehended by the police for breaking the law, is protected by his "brother." It may be a judge, who when a case is presented before him, sees a brother in trouble, and looks the other direction, allowing the lodge brother to go free or with light sentencing. Or, it may be an attorney who finds himself unable through the court system to really "defend" his client, as he secretly serves the system in which he is oath bound. Often in court cases throughout the legal system, children who are sexually or physically abused are sent back to live with a perpetrating parent while the other parent seeking protection of their child is sent away, alone and powerless to do anything to protect their child. All this happens because a judge or an attorney is part of an organization that has at its very foundation, protection of its members, right or wrong, and sometimes protection at all costs.

Are you aware that many of our Presidents have been Masons? In fact, the majority have. This means that they have taken an oath to serve their organization and the brothers who belong, without question, even above and beyond God and country. Instead of justice we have camaraderie. Instead of protecting citizens, especially our youngest ones, we have a system of individuals who serve each other, blindly I might add, without question of right or wrong, good or bad, without consideration for the Constitution and the high spiritual ideals set forth for our country. We have instead a "boys club," where many men join in order to belong, to be a part of a group that they may believe furthers civic interest, financial gain, and offers security.

Our nation is undermined by this group that operates in the dark, shrouded by secrecy and serving to protect their fellow lodge members above all else-including truth and justice. A man cannot serve the Lodge and at the same time serve God, for the good Lord calls us to love one another, to uphold one another, to love and serve our fellow humans, to protect and love the children, and cause no harm. This Masonic Order, this secret men's society, as harmless as it may seem to it's members teeming at the bottom, demands an oath to allegiance over truth, brotherhood over justice, and it often serves a need to protect a man's financial assets. There is no way a man can choose God's values when he is bound by an oath to protect and defend his fellow lodge member without question. Even if a first-degree lodge member doesn't find himself "called upon" to protect a brother, he is still serving a master at the top of the pinnacle, without knowledge of what the top directors-the 32d and 33rd Degree Masons--are doing. Yet these worker bees at the bottom fuel the deeds and goals of those brothers at the top, who possess the secret knowledge, and use that secret knowledge. I can tell you from personal experience of being there, that it is not of God but is evil in nature. It seeks control for power and ultimately it wreaks havoc and destruction upon the innocents that may be in its path.

A man cannot serve two masters. Those who are Masons are taught secret handshakes and hand signals that pass secretly between members without outsiders' knowledge that a subversive agenda is occurring, right there before the public's eyes. This secret communication between lodge brothers guarantees that the members are protected. But I guarantee you that unless a brother rises through the ranks, he won't find out that what he is supporting at the top of the organization he has sworn allegiance to, is the highest evil known to man. To possess this secret knowledge, men allow their morality and conscience to be stripped away; they have to, because the secret knowledge has to do with bringing in the New World Order through atrocity that comes with power and control, certainly not love and service. It is pure evil, shrouded in secrecy, and masked as a service organization. It's quite the opposite, as the many emerging victims of satanic rituals at the hands of high-ranking Masons and Shriners will attest to.

If you are currently a Mason, you may want to know that the secret knowledge at the top of your organization entails the ritualized abuse of young women who are raped on an altar as part of an initiation process. I know because I was there. It happened to me. I was taken to outdoor places in the 50's and 60's and subjected to satanic rituals performed by various men's fraternal societies, including the Masons and Shriners. I have also known and listened to other women who were healing from this mind control abuse, whose father's were Masons and through that affiliation came to be young members of Job's Daughters or the Eastern Star, and were healing from the mind control abuse they suffered in secret.

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with might through his Spirit in the inner man, and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have the power to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." -- Ephesians 3:14

noNWO4me
11-15-2005, 11:37 AM
FREEMAN, is it true that to become a 33rd degree mason, one has to commit murder with their own hands?

Saturnino
11-15-2005, 12:10 PM
I have a good friend who used to be a 32 degree mason and he really didn't know much at all about occultism. He is a Christian now and left the lodge.

It seems that the real evil begins at the 33rd degree indeed. They told him that you couldn't "earn" the 33rd, that it was reserved only to certain illustrious people...that the degree was given, never earned. Hmmmm...

About the book, I was somehow disapointed with the fact that she never discloses the names of the people in the "Council" (Illuminati). She talks a lot of presidents and Kissinger, but it comes to a point when I got tired of reading about so much sexual torture. But in her defense, the names she gives are the same than in other accounts of Mind Control: Ford, Nixon, Bush, the Arabs, etc.

Saturnino
11-15-2005, 12:16 PM
Just a tip..there is a site called filefactory.com
They let you upload 500MB of material for free and they give you a link that you can post anywhere.
It is a good, anonymous wy of sharing material.

freeman
11-15-2005, 02:08 PM
FREEMAN, is it true that to become a 33rd degree mason, one has to commit murder with their own hands?

No, not that I've heard...although you must be prepared to defend, protect and lie for a brother Mason who does commit murder. Once you get past the Master Mason level, it is my understanding that no crimes, including murer and treason are exempted from the blood oath of the Craft...so maybe we're actually splitting hairs by even discussing the point.

SAT, thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind. I did have to download that new WinZip program, but then everything downloaded perfectly.
I agree with your observations, and I could offer many more -- perhaps I will on the original thread.
I'm not certain that Brice Taylor's recall of her trauma-locked mind files is perfect, nor that she wasn't fed disinfo or misinterpreted certain points, but certainly there is enough congruence on most NWO topics to lend her the air of credibility IMO.
Perhaps not naming the Council Members is why she is still alive, the hole card that she is playing, as was indicated by her conversation with the government agent on the airplane near the end of the book.

Barbara
11-15-2005, 02:39 PM
Saturnino, more than likely she never knew their names or saw their faces. Those who comprise the top 2-3 levels of the pyramid of earthly power are unknown to the rest of the levels, protected by those levels much like the layers of an onion.

Freemasonry, Roundtable, Illuminate, Builderbergers, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, and more are just tentacles of the octopus. Membership in these organizations only allows us to see those of our own kind who are servants to The Dark Master.

The despicable and inhumane things done or caused to be done by these groups and their membership are simply to degrade and rot their human souls and bring them more securely into the domain of The Dark Master. Some are members of several of the elite groups but, where the Freemasons are concerned (those who are 32nd degree and down) they are the fathers, brothers, and sons from communities across the land, places where the high and mighty do not deign to go. Nonetheless, in this way, the reach of The Dark Master is from high to low. When the call goes out it will be all hands on deck. To refuse is to bring about the punishment agreed to in the blood oaths.

BTW, the 33rd degree is called the "revolutionary" degree and it is by invitation only. I, too, have heard of the requirement of personally committing murder as a prerequisite to having that degree conferred. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

This same Dark Master has been called many names down through history as he has caused havoc and chaos to reign on the earth. He was here long before Adam, this was his and his subjects' domain. The advent of humans on the earth was against his wishes, he hated them for what they were and determined to destroy them. I feel, rather than know, that the culmination of his plan is near at hand. Can't you feel it, too?

Bouncer
11-15-2005, 03:51 PM
It would seem that the dogs are yapping in the stalls, awaiting fresh meat.

When the jackals had the advantage over the lion, they mocked him and were mercilessly cruel. When the lion had the advantage over the jackals, he was meek, because it was his place to rule the jungle.

Of all the churches I've been to, I can't remember once when someone stood up and said, "We do not advocate membership in occult-based organizations, such as the Freemasons. Come forward and pray . . .". This is unusual, no?

freeman
11-15-2005, 05:11 PM
The despicable and inhumane things done or caused to be done by these groups and their membership are simply to degrade and rot their human souls and bring them more securely into the domain of The Dark Master.

I concur, based on my own decade-long study of the phenomenon.
At every level of this conspiracy we have been able to penetrate thus far -- including the little bit that Brice Taylor disseminates re "The Council" -- the players involved are all deluded in some fashion and able to rationalize their actions in terms of establishing some sort of secular humanistic utopia.
At the pinnacle of the pyramid there resides something very, very evil indeed -- possibly beyond our ability to comprehend. Something that will use, abuse and eventually doublecross everyone involved in the plot, because it is only interested in the destruction of the human race.

Saturnino
11-15-2005, 06:38 PM
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Satan is on top of all this NWO thing. He really wants to put out his show with the antiChrist. There is just too much convergence from all the sources pointing to this fact.

11-16-2005, 10:59 AM
have you guys not worked out that the illuminati and Freemasonry are not in anyway together.

The Illuminati infiltrate European Freemasonry in France and Germany in the 1800's to try and boost their own member numbers. There is no connection between the two orgs outside of these two countries.

The encouraged political and religious thought in lodge and subsequently forced the Grand Lodges of the world to no longer recognise them.

The Illumuninati, which I take it you mean the Bravarian order and not the 4 orgs prior to them, or the 3 spin offs after? tried to use Freemasonry, they were not part of it or in cohorts with it.

There are no blood oaths in Freemasonry, there are symbolic penalties, and Freemasonry only consists of three degrees, and the holy royal arch. The 33rd degree you speak of is the Ancitent and Accpeted Scottish Rite, or the English version which is the Ancient and Accepted Rite, of which the 33rd is not invitational, it is honourary.

To be a part of the A&ASR/A&AR you need to be a Christian, or hold a believe in the Trinity doctrine of the church, the order itself is by invitation.

Depending on where you are would depend on how things work, in America you can become a 32nd degree mason in one afternoon, in the UK it takes years, the majoirty only get to 18, a gew get to 32 and hardly any get to 33. In America they are 10 to the dozen in masonic cricles, no offense meant, but in the UK there are very rare.

It is against the oath of a Freemason to break the law, he must be true to his god, his soveriegn, the laws of his residence and his wife all prior to Freemasonry. That is what is obligates himself to in the very first degree of Freemasonry.

freeman
11-16-2005, 11:05 AM
have you guys not worked out that the illuminati and Freemasonry are not in anyway together.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It seems we have a new resident Freemasonic apologist.
Welcome, Bondi. Like the Fleetwood Mac song,
"Tell us lies, tell us sweet little lies..."

11-16-2005, 11:10 AM
freeman wrote:
It seems we have a new resident Freemasonic apologist.

Seems you do. Although let me state from the outset, I have no intention of changing your mind regarding Freemasonry.

I couldn't give two hoots if you are for or against it, but I would prefer you were anti-masonry with truth and honesty.

Welcome, Bondi.

Thanks for the welcome, although I doubt it will stay pleasent if past experience of boards similar are anything to go by.

Like the Fleetwood Mac song,
"Tell us lies, tell us sweet little lies..."

Not a fan myself.

freeman
11-16-2005, 11:12 AM
I couldn't give two hoots if you are for or against it, but I would prefer you were anti-masonry with truth and honesty

Already, a contradiction in terms.

11-16-2005, 11:14 AM
freeman wrote:
Already, a contradiction in terms.

How so?

I am offering to let you know what is fact and what is fiction.

I haven't told you you're wrong for not liking Freemasonry.

freeman
11-16-2005, 11:39 AM
I'm not the least bit surprised you showed up, Bondi.
I can understand why the Lodge dispatched you tout de suite, as soon as I posted that excerpt from the Brice Taylor book.
She really nailed it, didn't she?
I mean, up until that point, I was still harboring some lingering doubts about the absolute incredulity of what she was recounting, and she really isn't the most polished, porfessional novelist, but that chapter in and of itself is worth the entire price of the book.
Wonder why someone who was a lifelong victim of cruel, Satanic mind control, physical, mental and sexual abuse would feel so strongly about your precious Craft, Bondi? Why do you suppose that would be? What is there about your "harmless fraternal association" that would compell someone like Brice Taylor to rise above and beyond her own personal limitations in her description and condemnation of it? Hmm, let me think, could this be an example of...the Holy Spirit?
He, he, he, he, he...and ye shall know them by their works.

11-16-2005, 01:13 PM
freeman wrote:
I'm not the least bit surprised you showed up, Bondi.
I can understand why the Lodge dispatched you tout de suite, as soon as I posted that excerpt from the Brice Taylor book.

What ever!, I didn't even know about the book, I simple googles Freemasonry and forum and this site popped up among many others.

I stopped by as it seemed active compared to the most.


She really nailed it, didn't she?

Oh yes, she must off done, but then if she did, why are you still calling it a secret organistation?

I mean, up until that point, I was still harboring some lingering doubts about the absolute incredulity of what she was recounting,

I have to admit the book is so convincing due to the use of material not really known outside of America.

Ask most masons, for arguments sake in England, they will most likely not know what Morals and Dogma is, in fact many wont know who Albert Pike is.

Gees, you do know there is a world across the water that surrounds America don't you?

And as for Luciferian, even the guys at ATS know that is bull, Lucifer is, if tranlated properly the light bearer, the morning star. Why don;t you scan a bible and see who the morning star is.

Honestly, read something outside the fiction section, or at least try a little research, or as just a minimal effort try quoting something outside America.

and she really isn't the most polished,

Sounds like someone else I've met recently :-?

porfessional novelist, but that chapter in and of itself is worth the entire price of the book.

Some would also say it was worth detonating the H-bomb due to the scientific advancements it led to, but I guess it depends on what floats your boat.

Wonder why someone who was a lifelong victim of cruel, Satanic mind control, physical, mental and sexual abuse would feel so strongly about your precious Craft, Bondi?

Hey I'd say I was brought up by a pink pengiun called cyril if it sold books and made me a mint.

Oh Freeman, at least get your terminology correct, try a show you have the slightest inclinging you know what you are talking about. The craft is Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason.

What she refers to in her book is the Scottish Rite.

Why do you suppose that would be? What is there about your "harmless fraternal association" that would compell someone like Brice Taylor to rise above and beyond her own personal limitations in her description and condemnation of it? Hmm, let me think, could this be an example of...the Holy Spirit?

Or could it be money?

Holy Spirit, so you are a man of faith then. And would presume of a bible faith then.

Ever person in the Scottish Rite claims the same faith, so on a technical note on your reasoning of the actions of a few deem the action of the group every claim you make against Freemasonry is all against the Church?

Strange!

Saturnino
11-16-2005, 01:15 PM
Bondi,

you are late, man. In this forum, LOTS of material has been posted that proves beyond any doubt that Masonry is a religion (Jabuhlon), is contrary to Christianity and is controlled in the higher levels by the globalists/occultists.

If you still don't believe in it, you must as soon as possible start your own research. Begin with the Masonry corner at www.cuttingedge.org

11-16-2005, 01:50 PM
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

you are late, man.

I apologise, my invite got lost in the depths of cyber space.

In this forum, LOTS of material has been posted that proves beyond any doubt that Masonry is a religion (Jabuhlon)

That's not Freemasonry. It must be the one thing I get tired of having to repeat, decide what it is that you have the problem with, Freemasonry, York Rite, Scottish Rite, blah blah blah, they are different organisations.

Once you establish what it is, then we can get down to talking about it.

is contrary to Christianity and is controlled in the higher levels by the globalists/occultists.

Interesting comment. There have been polls run all over the world, the most recent and most publicised on Christian boards is that done by the BBC.

Is Freemasonry incompatible with Christianity.

Verdict, again, compatible.

The Arch Bishop of Cantebury, not current one, was a member of the craft, many pastors are members of the craft.

Now if it comes down to simply the way you interpret Freemasonry goes against your interpretation of your faith, fine. I am not going to tell you different, and that is a legitimate claim, but all this stuff about virgin sacrifces, devil worship etc is just plain silly.

Freemasons do not worship anything in Freemasonry, they worship the god of their faith, outside the lodge.

We are not even allowed to discuss Religion in lodge, let alone start worshipping anything.

If you still don't believe in it, you must as soon as possible start your own research. Begin with the Masonry corner at www.cuttingedge.org

Ah yes the Attelboro site, administered by Jim.

Very interesting site, nothing really outside America again though.

Has some very interestng stuff though, not quite on the mark but still a well researched site, and at least some effort put in.

The SYMBOLS PROVE is my favourite article, so close but so far.

The all seeing eye is a symbol of every organisation that has a deity, Christianity included. The first known use of it was in Christian churches in Greece I believe, inside a triangle, depicting the all-seeing god, and the triangle, the symbol of the trinity.

Then there is the point within a cirlce, the female genitalia. Which if researched properly rather than believeing the first thing found that sounds degrading, they would know this symbol if of genetail would be the male phallace, from egyptian origin.

The boxes with the eye, not a true picture of the symbol, obvioulsy foudn one to suit. The actual image is just of the boxes and is representation of the 47th problem, and for those who don't know the reason why it is used in masonry is because it is how you find the perfect square, and for the really lazy who don;t want to check it out, ask a builder what he uses 3,4,5 for.

The my personal favourite, the american seal on the one dollar bill. Personally if I was going to show how great my org was I would of put it on the 100, but hey.

Something to know, so you do not fall fowl of quoting this particular piece in future conversations, in fact I'll post an article entitled the eye and the pyramid as it's quite long.

Draken
11-16-2005, 02:03 PM
Bondi, you asked a question...

how come 86% of all, and I apologise for the example in advance and unlike Freeman do not associate the crime with the group, of all paedophile crimes come from people of the cloth?

...and answered it yourself:

The Arch Bishop of Cantebury, not current one, was a member of the craft, many pastors are members of the craft.

Priceless.

truebeliever
11-16-2005, 05:41 PM
Do 33rd Degree MAsons have to kill anyone?

No, they ring up the local Biker or Mafia chapter (Jew, Italian, Somali, Lebanese, have i missed anyone?) and they do it for them.

What? The Conservative establishment in the U.K and Oz "kill" anyone? Laughable. They have scumbag druggies and ex-special forces to do that.

May I recommend the movie "Layercake" to BONDI. A good representation of the drug dealing world in the U.K all the way up to the "bluebloods" who employ ex-SAS to do there dirty work...and lets not forget the dirty coppers.

I see BONDI you are fairly well down on the rung. So much clicked together when I learnt more of the secet societies. THANX CC!

Saturnino
11-17-2005, 03:26 AM
There are tons of reasons why a Christian should not be a Mason. The fact that apostate pastors may be masons doesn't make masonry right, it makes those pastors wrong.

Christianity is a serious thing. You believe and respect Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, you don't fool around with demon gods like Jabuhlon, you don't take oaths, you don't pledge allegiance to any brotherhood, you don't play around occultic symbols, you don't believe in false mythologies about guys being killed in the Temple. You live your life as an open book, not behind closed doors. Have you noticed that the doors of a Christian church are OPEN for all ?

And, most of all, you don't worship Lucifer.

Bondi, if you think yourself a Christian, you seriously need to re-evaluate your faith.

11-17-2005, 04:35 AM
Draken wrote:
Bondi, you asked a question...

how come 86% of all, and I apologise for the example in advance and unlike Freeman do not associate the crime with the group, of all paedophile crimes come from people of the cloth?

...and answered it yourself:

The Arch Bishop of Cantebury, not current one, was a member of the craft, many pastors are members of the craft.

Priceless.

Do you concur that the Church is in reality an organisation that allows people to get hold of young children then?

Priceless as putting parts of peoples posts together, you need to ensure that the actually fullness of your comments are worth it.

For your post says that both the Church and Freemasons are paedophiles.

11-17-2005, 04:42 AM
truebeliever wrote:
No, they ring up the local Biker or Mafia chapter (Jew, Italian, Somali, Lebanese, have i missed anyone?) and they do it for them.

So now we are in league with Bikers and Mafia. The list is endless, or is it that you simple have a list and once one claim is debunked you just move onto the next one.


truebeliever wrote:
May I recommend the movie "Layercake" to BONDI. A good representation of the drug dealing world in the U.K all the way up to the "bluebloods" who employ ex-SAS to do there dirty work...and lets not forget the dirty coppers.

Your offering me a film, a fiction film. :lol:

Thats like telling these guys to watch the passion of christ to find out exactly what happen to JC. :lol:


truebeliever wrote:
I see BONDI you are fairly well down on the rung. So much clicked together when I learnt more of the secet societies. THANX CC!

There is only 3, if we are talking Freemasonry.

And how come you reckon someone outside can learn it, but someone on the inside cannot unless they are told. Get a grip.

Shannow
11-17-2005, 04:45 AM
Having spent 4 years being fucked over by a group of people who "display a unique code of morality" (their words in the local rag), I KNOW that these people are corrupt.

I don't know about illuminatti, NWO, or whatever, but these brotherhood of goat fuckers will protect their own, come what may.

11-17-2005, 05:05 AM
Saturnino wrote:
There are tons of reasons why a Christian should not be a Mason. The fact that apostate pastors may be masons doesn't make masonry right, it makes those pastors wrong.

If objections are due to faith then there really is not argument. It is a simple statement, I do not agree with Freemasonry due to my faith, I am not going to try an tell you I know more about your faith than you do! Wish others would show the same courtesy.



truebeliever wrote:
Christianity is a serious thing. You believe and respect Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord,

Wouldn't disagree with you, most Christians I have met are very devoted followers.


truebeliever wrote:
you don't fool around with demon gods like Jabuhlon,

You have got to be kidding me, you are right?

God, Jahbulon, you aint bought all that Jahbulon is the name of God taught to masons have you. Thought you at least would be past that one.

Jahbulon is not used in Freemasonry.

If I remember correctly, the hoax that Masons worship a secret god named Jabulon first appeared in Hannah's anti-Masonic book "Darkness Visible".

A similar word is used in some versions of the Royal Arch as done in the York Rite, but nowhere is it claimed to be the name of a god, or a secret name of God.

You would think the secret name for a God you are supposed to worship would be categorically included in every version. I mean, you wont find a bible without JC will ya.


truebeliever wrote:
you don't take oaths,

You swear, give your word, take an oath, when you get married, a christianed, baptsied or are god parents.

you don't pledge allegiance to any brotherhood

Part of the obligation you take is to put your faith, your family, the requirements of your king/queen, and the laws of your land before Freemasonry at all times. This is part of the EA obligation, the very first time you give your word on anything.


truebeliever wrote:
you don't play around occultic symbols,

Occult merely means hidden, and you find most symbols in Freemasonry in Christianity, but don;t tell me, Freemasonry uses them in an evil way and Christianity uses them in a good way.


truebeliever wrote:
you don't believe in false mythologies about guys being killed in the Temple.

Freemasons don't believe that is true.

It is explained as a Masonic Myth, its a story, a fable, acted out to teach honesty and integrity.

You don't honestly think Freemasons believe it actually happened do you?


truebeliever wrote:
You live your life as an open book, not behind closed doors. Have you noticed that the doors of a Christian church are OPEN for all ?

I do live life open, as for doors of the church, the buggers are always locked in my village, and the one up the road, but I don't imagine you meant it like that.



truebeliever wrote:And, most of all, you don't worship Lucifer.

I completely agree, it is a silly accusation and I am glad you took the trouble to make the categorical statement that I, most of all, do not worship Lucifer.


truebeliever wrote:Bondi, if you think yourself a Christian, you seriously need to re-evaluate your faith.

When have I ever said that. True by characeristic I am probably more Christian than many that profess to be of that faith, but alas I do not claim such a thing. I have no reliance on a book written by men and a group that continually try to rule by fear. IMO only of course, I have no wish to debate the pros and cons of Christianity, you have the right to choose your path, as I do mine.

11-17-2005, 05:08 AM
Shannow wrote:
I don't know about illuminatti, NWO, or whatever, but these brotherhood of goat fuckers will protect their own, come what may.

Friends look after Friends, I presume is what you mean.

Interestingly though, the infamous Goat is not exactly from Freemasonry. I think the orange order used one in their past, but that is a spin off group.

The expression used if actually "Riding the Goad" the goat is something that caught on after someone mis-heard it.

truebeliever
11-17-2005, 05:09 AM
Who says I was on the "outside" looking in?

I used to deal and mix with drug dealers. I used to work in clubs and pubs. Through simple association I am good friends with the son of a died in the wool black shirt Italian Gentlemans Club member...a guy who gets his hand kissed out the back of restaurants.

I live down the road from Campbell barracks...SAS home base. These people do leave the base on occasion and scuba dive, skydive and even drink at Hillary's boat harbour.

I used to look after sex workers. THE CREME DE LA CREM of the Intelligence service informants as are Taxi drivers. One former sex worker regularly has lunch with "Royd" from ASIO...i think he's left and now works for the Department Of Transport..."G'Day Royd"! Of course, they never REALLY leave.

I happened to become friends with a guy who runs the Military Intelligence training course in Kunundra North Queensland...Wayne Prime. Nice guy and instilled a little faith in me about the character of our Military men. He was bonking my flatmate. Hav'nt spoken to him in a couple of years.

My ex-girlfriends step father is a card carrying Mason...nice guy. Loves doing business. Coz thats what Masonry is about. Doing business and furthering the organized crime outfit.

Do i care about posting this stuff? No, they tell me NO secrets, but even casual conversation yeilds info especially when I dazzle them with my knowledge on how they work and a life long love of all things military.

You are clearly on the BOTTOM rungs and have nothing to offer me in the way of information.

If you have any questions for me on the particulars of the drug trade here in Oz and the money laundering chain through the banks and brokerage houses please feel free to ask. And just what organization do the movers and shakers belong to, though not exclusively?

Please do not bullshit me on the wonders of Masonry. You need a club obviously. A "club" that demands secrecy. Already you show yourself as weak and vulnerable. I do not mean to insult. You are probably a nice guy. One of the nicest guys I ever met was a Romanian heroine dealer...i suggest you take note of Christ, YOUR Lord and saviour. "Let your yes be yes! And your no, no!" All else is rubbish and the domain of the ethically, morally and spiritually bankrupt.

Real men keep clear of belonging to secret organizations. Real men have nothing to hide. How about you?

BTW...you have quoted me on things I never posted. I dont know what you're talking about. POst #25?

11-17-2005, 05:29 AM
truebeliever wrote:
You are clearly on the BOTTOM rungs and have nothing to offer me in the way of information.

You haven't asked anything, I have merely commented on your statements.


truebeliever wrote:BTW...you have quoted me on things I never posted. I dont know what you're talking about. POst #25?

I take it you mean the worshipping Lucifer bit. just a play on words, shows how things can be twisted and used in alternate manners to which is was meant.

truebeliever
11-17-2005, 05:47 AM
You haven't asked anything, I have merely commented on your statements.

Yes, because you are far from the source.

ALL organized crime outfits have their roots in the various "business" organizations.

Some work for the Italian end who answer to the banking and brokerage houses.

Some work for the Jewish mafia outta Melbourne and in turn answer to the banking and brokerage houses.

I am just pointing out that the "nice" people in the suits and ties get the "scummy" people to do the dirty work for them. That includes the Elite such as Lord McAlpine, a Knights Templar man and sacrificial murder'er. Former Thatcher Minister and scumbag.

Again, you are far from the source.

All the best.

11-17-2005, 05:54 AM
So who's at the top?

Why play with pawns if you know who controls the king?

truebeliever
11-17-2005, 06:00 AM
Why play with pawns if you know who controls the king?

Quite right.

All the best.

11-17-2005, 06:04 AM
So who is at the top then?

Pawns are normally used unaware, and therefore unwillingly involved. Do they deserve your persecution?

truebeliever
11-17-2005, 06:24 AM
Pawns are normally used unaware, and therefore unwillingly involved. Do they deserve your persecution?

No. But I have distinct views on "secret societies". Especially ones able to weal great power at the top.


So who is at the top then?

In Australia? Will get back to you. Eating dinner.

11-17-2005, 06:45 AM
truebeliever wrote:
No. But I have distinct views on "secret societies". Especially ones able to weal great power at the top.


So I see, but there are many out there.

Are you going to have a bash as SRIA, HOAC, The Fellowship, The Foundation, (last two are the same and arrange the annual prayer breakfast), the list would be endless.

The comment is also very carte blanche, do you despise the many secret christian groups in muslim commnities, who stay hidden for fear of persecution. Isn't that how Christianity started, a secret organisation, Ichthus and all that.



Will get back to you. Eating dinner.

Hope your having something nice, had macaroni cheese myself. Not very filling and didn't taste all that good, but thats my cooking for ya.

truebeliever
11-17-2005, 06:54 AM
The comment is also very carte blanche, do you despise the many secret christian groups in muslim commnities, who stay hidden for fear of persecution. Isn't that how Christianity started, a secret organisation, Ichthus and all that.

Do you fear persecution? If so, why? What practical persecution could you possibly suffer when in the place where I live the Police Service and the Judiciary are CHOCK full of Masons!

Of course, you do not need to be a "Mason" to be corrupt.

The "New Age" movement runs about bashing the crap out of the Christians. They are open about their plans. Why cant you be? The Catholic Church gunna burn you at the stake?

11-17-2005, 07:08 AM
truebeliever wrote:
Do you fear persecution? If so, why?

I do not really fear anything. There are things I believe I will be afraid of, but nothing that currently surrounds my life installs fear.


truebeliever wrote:
What practical persecution could you possibly suffer when in the place where I live the Police Service and the Judiciary are CHOCK full of Masons!

But those same stations are also full of Christians, Catholics, Men but you do not see them being accused of anything.


truebeliever wrote:
Of course, you do not need to be a "Mason" to be corrupt.


True


truebeliever wrote:
The "New Age" movement runs about bashing the crap out of the Christians. They are open about their plans. Why cant you be?

The Freemasons continually try to be open, but if people will only believe what they want to, and not believe the truth what is the point.

Freemasonry has no global or local objective other than to offer fraternal friendships, the opportunity for men to leanr how to lead better lifes.

They do not offer anything that is not already available, there are no secret doctrines, no secret parchments in a vault that only masons can read, there is no real concealment at all.

If you want to believe there is something, and are unwilling to be proved otherwise then no matter what is said you will believe it is merely smoke and mirrors to try and throw you off (that isn't meant as in YOU personally)


truebeliever wrote:
The Catholic Church gunna burn you at the stake?

Inquisition all over again. Very godly that!

Saturnino
11-17-2005, 08:09 AM
Bondi,

If you can't back up your claims that Masonry is compatible with Christianity, then don't make them.

First you say it is, now you say you are not even a Christian (but this I already knew).

The only reason you have then to be in Masonry, considering that it is possible that you are not an occultist, is to screw people outside the lodge and get business advantages. I consider that dishonest to say the least. You don't live your life based on merit, but based on who knows who. What is difference between that and the Mafia ? None. This only makes Masonry an enemy of everybody else.

And, of course, it is not because you don't believe in the occult that people at the top of Masonry doesn't. They do, and they use the cattle below who are only interested in the business connections to advance their agenda. There are dozens of accounts of high level masons who left the lodge and became Christians who told it all.

igwt
11-17-2005, 08:17 AM
Here is a story that is ongoing and very much in the same vein of Taylors (Ford) book.

Richard Hamlin Vs. Satanic Ritual Abuse Conspiracy
by URI DOWBENKO

The Placerville, California trial of Richard Hamlin, a successful attorney in Sacramento, has all the hallmarks of a high-level Satanic Ritual Abuse criminal conspiracy, including allegations of MK-Ultra mind control, bio-warfare, child pornography, snuff films, and other "black" (covert military) projects.

The cast of real-life characters comes from "The Octopus" by Kenn Thomas and "The Last Circle" by Cherie Seymour, and includes former FBI agent Ted Gunderson and former CIA asset Michael Riconosciuto.

This convoluted case involves attorney Richard Hamlin, who appears to be the scapegoat-fall guy. It also involves his wife Susan Siemer Hamlin, who claimed that her father Dr. Sidney Siemer had molested her since childhood, that she had molested her own children because she had been mind controlled by a satanic cult including her father, and that later she was coerced into a murder plot against her own husband. Shortly thereafter she recanted her confession. Her husband Richard Hamlin was then arrested and has been imprisoned since February 2004.

According to Bay Area journalist Virginia McCullough, who has written extensively about the case on NewsMakingNews.com, a report was filed by El Dorado County Sheriff's Deputy G. Murphy who stated that "Husband & wife reported wife committing lewd actions with 3 of their 4 children and wife conspiring with satanic cult to murder her husband. Wife interviewed & children placed into Protective Custody with CPS. Forward to Detectives for follow-up investigation."

The initial report reads:
"2-26-04, Tuesday, 1535 Hrs -- I was dispatched to take a 288 lobby report. On arrival in the lobby, I met Richard Hamlin and his wife Susan. They made the following report regarding Susan molesting their children and being involved in a conspiracy to murder Richard this Sunday (2-29-04) night at midnight. Detectives Hoagland and Lensing were present during the interview.

"Susan originally told me that she is a Satanist and has ritually molested their 4 children... under the instruction of her father (Sidney Siemer). Susan said her family is involved in a satanic cult and that her father raped her when she was a young girl and "passed her around to whoever else wanted to rape her." She said H-male who is a friend of her father and is a high priest in the satanic cult has molested her since age 15. Susan said she last spoke with H-male in October of 2003.

Richard said his wife Susan told him that her dad Sidney, H-male, R-male and R-male had planned to murder him on this Sunday night (2-29-04) at midnight at their house on 3340 Beatty Drive, El Dorado Hills. Richard said the plan was for Susan to leave their house on Sunday night with their 4 children by 2100 hours. Sidney would have some associates stage a diversion in the backyard to draw Richard out of his house. Sidney, H-male, R-male and R-male would break Richard's car window, use his garage door remote to gain entry to the house and wait for Richard to come back inside the house to murder him.

Susan said this statement was correct and that her father Sidney and H-male had planned for the last 2 years to kill Richard at midnight going into March 1st. She also said that L-female told her that they had sent 2 Satanist ladies to the Hamlins' house in the disguise of Jehovah's Witnesses on the day he (Richard Hamlin) had an accidental shooting (2-5-04/case #04-1516). Those ladies were supposed to be checking on Susan since Susan's phone was disconnected and she had not had contact with them for the previous year and a half. Susan said she believed that her father and the others would get weapons from her brother but did not know this for sure.

Susan said March 21st in an installation date for Satanists. She said March 1st is 3 weeks prior to March 21st and is a starting or launching date for March 21st. This year (2004) is even more important since it's a leap year. Susan decided she would go along with the murder of her husband Richard so that she could become High Priestess. She said H-male is the High Priest in the cult.

Susan said Richard has been identified as "a Christian with a mission" and "must be eliminated " and that if Richard is allowed to live, he would cause problems for the Satanists. Susan said that Richard "won't go away," is a Christian with strong convictions and "has become a trophy head." She said "it would be a great victory for Satan if Richard is killed." Susan said that simply divorcing Richard (as opposed to killing him) was not an option for her if she was to prove her worthiness as a High Priestess.

Susan said she was supposed to speak with L-female at the Starbucks parking lot on Douglas Blvd. in Granite Bay 2 days ago (2-22-04) regarding the murder plot because Susan's loyalty was in question. She said L-female owns a blue Lexus and a red one. On arrival, Susan saw a red Lexus that looked like L-female's parked in Starbucks' parking lot. As Susan stepped out of her car, a man named "R-male punched her in her face, knocking her to the ground. R-male then kicked Susan all over her head and body. R-male told Susan "YOU BETTER STAY WITH THE PLAN IF YOU WANT TO BE HIGH PRIESTESS! STICK TO THE PLAN OR YOU'RE DEAD!' R-male then got into the red Lexus, made a U-turn and drove off. She described R-male as being a WMA, 47 years or older, some gray in his short hair and about 5"10".

Susan was bleeding from her nose. She didn't have a cell phone so she didn't call anyone. She sat there for a while because she was worried about going home and having to explain this to her husband Richard.

After about 20 minutes to an hour, Susan went home. Richard was asking questions about her injuries and what had happened. Susan hadn't told Richard about the murder plot until then. Rich then wanted to know all the details about the murder plot and her life during the past 20 years they had been married until he decided he had complete information. This process took 4 days since they knew "this story had a lot of crazy information" and "would sound ridiculous." They then decided to report this to the EDSO (El Dorado Sheriff's Office).

Susan said she molested three of their children 5-10 times each in El Dorado County between October 1999 and October of 2002. She said the kids were all asleep during each incident and did not wake up... She explained that 'THIS WAS TO KEEP THE KIDS COMFORTABLE WITH TOUCHING AND TO KEEP THE KIDS FROM THINKING THEIR SEXUALITY WAS THEIR OWN. THE KIDS HAD TO BE TOUCHED BY MANY HANDS'.................. She said she "THOUGHT SHE WAS BEING A GOOD MOM." When I asked what she meant by that, Susan explained that her father had taught her that was what a good Satanist mom was supposed to do.

She said the kids were "in a trance, a hypnotic state" whenever she did any of these molesting incidents. Susan said that her dad Sidney, her step mom and sister all molested her kids.

Susan also told us she witnessed a young girl being killed in 1982 while H-male was disciplining her (Susan). Susan was "strung up on a pegboard for 3 weeks." She said H-male killed a young girl who had been kidnapped. Susan was kept in cold storage and brought out twice to witness the murder. Susan said H-male and the others broke the young girl's bones and tied her in different shapes. Susan said the girl was alive when the torture started. Susan described the girl as being 9 or 10 years old and having dark hair. Susan didn't know who the girl was but said the torture and murder was filmed.

Detectives Hoagland, Lensing and I then re-interviewed Susan alone while tape recording the interview (item #2). Susan waived her Miranda Rights and again made the same statement and confession during questioning. I confirmed with Susan that the bruising on her face, throat and ears was from the beating that R-male had given her during their encounter at Starbucks in Granite Bay. I took photos of those injuries (item #1).

Based on Susan's and Richard's information, Detective Hoagland, Detective Lensing and I (G. Murphy) decided not to arrest Susan, pending further investigation. I advised Richard and Susan that their children had been placed into Protective Custody with CPS and gave them CPS' phone #. Both were advised that they were free to go and that Detectives would be continuing the investigation.

I booked the photos and film into EDSD Property as evidence. I ran all of the names Susan had given us to develop more complete address information for Detectives on follow-up investigation. Case forwarded to Detectives for follow-up investigation of the murder conspiracy and interviews of the Hamlin children. I notified CPS Worker Kate Campbell of the case # and she advised she would pick up a report copy from Records on Monday for her CPS investigation.

According to Virginia McCullough, "Two days later following her husband's arrest on February 28, 2004 and with the children still in protective custody, Susan Hamlin retracted her original statements to the El Dorado County Sheriff's Department."

"Individuals who wish to remain unidentified have said that Dr. Sid Siemer is a high ranking member of a CIA sanctioned child molestation ring called 'The Finders' and also a senior member of the Order of the Trapezoid, consisting of worshippers of the Temple of Set," writes McCullough. "Members of both groups have indicated that they consider themselves a type of royalty operating above the laws of man."

McCullough also notes "Richard Hamlin made a verbal request of Judge Keller to bring self described CIA asset Michael Riconosciuto to the Placerville courtroom to testify as a defense witness. On November 15, 2004 Riconosciuto had written a letter to his attorney is which he said: I have received letters from Ted's (Gunderson) client Richard Hamlin. When TLG (Ted L. Gunderson) first began writing to me about the case with his client and client's father-in-law Sid Seimer (sic) , I was horrified........I know Sid Seimer (sic) from the Wackenhut/Cabazon operation. Sid was close to J. P. Nichols and Wayne Reeder. My reaction to the allegations of Sid's cult involvement was one of horror because of how powerful he is in military and intelligence circles... Sid is at the top in the cult scene on the international level! This guy is extremely dangerous. Sid is a expert in plant biology and epizoology. He was directly involved with the Wackenhut/Cabazon operations biowarfare work with DARPA and the University of California."

Susan Hamlin had also written a note to her friend Lisa

"As you now know, I couldn't go through with our plan to take Rick down to Fresno to have his killed. The truth is that I want to be with him exclusively. I want to be totally committed to him and to Christ. My involvement in the past with incest and prostitution was under my dad's control originally - but was engaged in on a "choice" level as I got older. I have always struggled with where my allegiance was. I don't know what your feelings have been over the years related to the satanic beliefs and the prostitution you have been involved in.

"My marriage was entered into by me knowing that Rick was a Christian who stands up for what he believes in. I planned to use him to get back at Sid. Rick never knew any of this - and loved me in spite of all that I have done to him over the years.

"Finally, at 47, I choose to reject Satan, reject Sid, and reject all the lies and commit the rest of my life to Christ, Rick, my children and set on a path to right the wrongs I've done."

Will the Satanists be successful in railroading Richard Hamlin in his trial in Placerville, California?

Journalist Virginia McCullough calls the Richard Hamlin trial the "best conspiracy litigation in California."

Zephnet (http://www.zephnet.com/?select=squib&league=composite&post_id=53875&docket=1)

11-17-2005, 08:28 AM
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

If you can't back up your claims that Masonry is compatible with Christianity, then don't make them.

I have not made an opinion on it. There have been polls run time and time again, but I am not gonna try and tell someone I know more about their faith than they do.

Beside, if a group of Christians can't decide if it's compatible or not, how am I gonna know?

As for backing up claims, not one claim made in this section can be backed up convincingly. it's all hear say and speculation!


Saturnino wrote:
First you say it is, now you say you are not even a Christian (but this I already knew).

Only mentioned polls, from my knowledge of Christianity it is all down to interpretation as to whether it is compatible or not. I don't know if my interpretations are correct, and therefore I do not quote them as truth, just opinion.

Know I say I'm not a Christian, never said I was. Do you presume everyone is until you know differnt or something. But no you can't of done that cause I cam quite categorigally a Mason, so you would of known from my first post I was not Christian.


Saturnino wrote:
The only reason you have then to be in Masonry, considering that it is possible that you are not an occultist, is to screw people outside the lodge and get business advantages.

You mean the only reason you can think of that is of insult, you could of mentioned

Friendship
Fraternal gatherings
Social
Esoteric interests
Study
Philisophocal Dicsussion
Mutual Interest
Like minded individuals.

As for business advantage, my mates get more business advantage from me than the members of my masonic lodge. You will find a friend helps and friend more than a mason helps a mason.


Saturnino wrote:
I consider that dishonest to say the least. You don't live your life based on merit, but based on who knows who.

What you consider is of no consequence. You can't see the wood for the trees, you make claims of dishonesty, on actions you presume to happen in an organisation you know nothing about. Very reliable you are, I must demit immediatley.


Saturnino wrote:
What is difference between that and the Mafia ?

Apparently we pay the mafia and the hells angles :lol:


Saturnino wrote:
None. This only makes Masonry an enemy of everybody else.

The people who make Freemasonry their enemy are either gullible or incapable of asking a question for themselves and believing the answer.


Saturnino wrote:
And, of course, it is not because you don't believe in the occult that people at the top of Masonry doesn't.

okay I think we need to get something straight here, cause we seem to be getting a one rule for one and a one rule for another to suit the arguement. Apparently Freemasonry are all murderers, Paedophiles, Mafioso etc because some members have been, but just because the majority are good natured, kind, god fearing men doesn't men Freemasonry is.

Which is it, do the members define the group of does the group define the members. You can't keep chainging to suit.


Saturnino wrote:
They do, and they use the cattle below who are only interested in the business connections to advance their agenda.

What they worship is of no interest to Freemasonry, worship is a matter for outside the lodge.


Saturnino wrote:
There are dozens of accounts of high level masons who left the lodge and became Christians who told it all.

There is a book coming out entitle Workman Unashamed, regarding a man who demitted from Freemasonry to continue his journey through the ranks of the clergy.

He didn't demit because of incompatibility issue, he demitted because of the persecution and the abuse he received from the fellow clergy.

His books also tells of how he feels there are no issues of a Christian being a Freemason, and although he may not be the most qualified, he is certainly in a better place to judge the you or me.

igwt
11-17-2005, 08:41 AM
Bondi wrote:
...Know I say I'm not a Christian, never said I was. Do you presume everyone is until you know differnt or something. But no you can't of done that cause I cam quite categorigally a Mason, so you would of known from my first post I was not Christian...

Isn't it a requirement that you have to believe in God to join the Masonic Org?

11-17-2005, 08:57 AM
igwt wrote:
Isn't it a requirement that you have to believe in God to join the Masonic Org?

It is the requirement that you have a belief in a Supreme Being, meaning you have faith.

Doesn't have to be the god of the bible

Introduction

The following information is intended to deal with a topic mentioned in the leaflet 'What is Freemasonry'.

It explains the United Grand Lodge of England's view of the relationship between Freemasonry and religion.

Basic Statement

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.

Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.

The Supreme Being

The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as each sees Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissention among them.

There is no separate Masonic God; a Freemason's God remains the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God.

Volume of the Sacred Law

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry

The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

The physical penalties, which are purely symbolic, do not form part of an Obligation. The commitment to follow the principles of Freemasonry is, however, deep.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion

Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion.

a) it has no theological doctrine, and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic theological doctrine to develop.

b) It offers no sacraments.

c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition and not with salvation.

Freemasonry Supports Religion

Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion

Source (http://www.ugle.org.uk/masonry/freemasonry-and-religion.htm)

Freemasonry tries to use generic terms so not to favour one faith over another.

11-17-2005, 09:07 AM
Now in this you have explained. We take note of you now.

Saturnino
11-17-2005, 11:19 AM
Biondi,

What you don't understand is that people here think that belonging to a secret society, EVEN IF IT WAS NOT EVIL, is a pathetic thing for an adult to do.

Let's assume that there is no occultist elite running the Masons:

Don't you feel stupid wearing your apron and your regalia, taking idiotic oaths ? Wouldn't you be ashamed if your wife saw you in those ceremonies ? Don't you think you look like Fred Flintstone with that big hat of his brotherhood ? Do you need to get into a brotherhoof to have friends ? Can't you discuss philosophy with friends enjoying a capuccino ?

What else can say: Get a real life !

Now if you add to that ridiculous behavior the smallest possibility that you are being used by the higher ranks, why would any healthy person be a Mason ?

Barbara
11-17-2005, 12:07 PM
Their silly regalia and their stupid mumbo jumbo are likely two of the major reasons all their meetings are held in secret, Saturnino. :-D

The third being that they are traitorous bastards who are selling out their country and their people for a bowl of pottage, if that.

Probably, as children, their mothers had to tie a pork chop around their necks to get the dogs to play with them. Now they've finally found a niche.

11-18-2005, 03:15 AM
Saturnino wrote:

What you don't understand is that people here think that belonging to a secret society, EVEN IF IT WAS NOT EVIL, is a pathetic thing for an adult to do.

So where does Freemasonry come into this? Freemasonry has not been a secret organisation since 1717.

Most masonic sites state when their meetings are, all you have to do is phone a lodge and they will tell you when they meet. Most halls are clearly marked.

Wheres the secret.

In the meetings you all know that there is either a role play done, a talk given and just normal general business that you get in every meeting, minutes, correspondance matters arising.

Still wheres the secret?


Saturnino wrote:
Let's assume that there is no occultist elite running the Masons:

Don't you feel stupid wearing your apron and your regalia, taking idiotic oaths ? Wouldn't you be ashamed if your wife saw you in those ceremonies ? Don't you think you look like Fred Flintstone with that big hat of his brotherhood ? Do you need to get into a brotherhoof to have friends ? Can't you discuss philosophy with friends enjoying a capuccino ?

No I do not feel stupid wearing my regalia, my wife was the first to see me in it, and she is fully aware of what goes on. The lodge met my wife and told her what goes on and she had to say she didn't mind before they would let me petition.

Fred Flinstone, theres no animal skin and no hats in my lodge so no. Although some American lodges do have head gear worn by the WM.


Saturnino wrote:
What else can say: Get a real life !


My life is real, Freemasonry is simply a part of it.


Saturnino wrote:
Now if you add to that ridiculous behavior the smallest possibility that you are being used by the higher ranks, why would any healthy person be a Mason ?

Possibility is an endless argument, that can be placed to anything.

The smallest possibility the Christian faith is not the true teachings of Christ, but the spin of Paul.

The smallest possibility the public school is merely a brainwash exercise for local governments.

The smallest possibility John Elway was actually a good quarter back.

I live my life with facts, black and white truths, paranoia, conspiracy, half truths, outright lies do not really factor highly.

11-18-2005, 03:27 AM
Barbara wrote:
Their silly regalia and their stupid mumbo jumbo are likely two of the major reasons all their meetings are held in secret, Saturnino. :-D

They are not held in secret, they are conducted like any other meeting, where matters of business are discussed.

Try and sit it on any business meeting, they are all done behind closed doors.

As for the closed doors for ritual, the regalia, and the so called mumbo jumbo, it is all tradition, like most ceremonies carried out any where.


Barbara wrote:
The third being that they are traitorous bastards who are selling out their country and their people for a bowl of pottage, if that.

I am loyal to queen and country long before Freemasonry, and it is something I took an oath to do the first time I was in lodge.

You really should read all the comments made cause the you would know, and I wouldn't have to keep writing the same stuff over and over again.

The Oath you take regarding loyalties etc is the first one you take as an EA, in which you swear in this order

1) Your Faith
2) Your soveriegn, ie King, Queen, President etc
3) The Law of the Land
4) Your wife, family and dependants
5) Freemasonry.

And before you go on to say, "Yer but when your a 32nd"

If you break an oath it is hardly a good sign that you'll keep another one.


Barbara wrote:
Probably, as children, their mothers had to tie a pork chop around their necks to get the dogs to play with them. Now they've finally found a niche.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not heard that one before.

We're childish and need to grow because we wear regalia, :-o

Last time I heard name calling like that was in a playground ages about 12.

Don't forget to do your homework babs! :-x

Saturnino
11-18-2005, 04:18 AM
Bondi,

You are free to live your life the way you want. If you don't want to believe the obvious, that Masonry is antidemocratic, dishonest and a tool for the occultist elite, what can we do ? We've reached a stalemate.

You will keep going to your meetings and we will keep fighting against your organization.

Anyway, thanks for being civil.

11-18-2005, 04:35 AM
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

You are free to live your life the way you want.


Be sure that I do. I live my life by my choices and no one esles.

I will be judged by my creator and no one else.


Saturnino wrote:
If you don't want to believe the obvious, that Masonry is antidemocratic, dishonest and a tool for the occultist elite, what can we do ? We've reached a stalemate.

It is not that I do not want to believe, it is a case of I am a Freemason, of rank to answer any question you care to ask. I know all the rituals and all the requirements and what you claim just isn't there.

Antidemocratic, it is non-political.

I cannot disagree that you will find dishonest Freemasons, which in my opinion means they are not a Freemason. It takes more than wearing an apron and quoting lines to be a Freemason, and trust me there are plenty of Freemasons I would like to remind of this.

Freemasonry is treated like a club, a leg up facilitator by many Freemasons, but I assure you they are in the major minority and Freemasonry will not have it.

You will find it happens in particular lodges, and not in Freemasonry in general, and if I had my way those lodges would be closed and those masons forced to demit as that is not what Freemasonry is.

There are more Freemasons like me than not, but unfortunately because I do not meet your stereotype I will be the Freemason you forget.

If people like those that post on forums like these would merely believe masons like me and realise the actions you speak of and the characteristics you adhere to masonry is a manoirty and Freemasons want them out of Freemasonry as much as you. You would have a bigger chance of succeeding, not in destroying Freemasonry, but to quote a common book, the "enemy within". Which equates to selfish and self motivated individuals that unfortunately any group fails to keep out.


Saturnino wrote:
You will keep going to your meetings and we will keep fighting against your organization.


last paragraph above covers this.


Saturnino wrote:Anyway, thanks for being civil.

And the same to the majority of the posters here, in the end.

I am only too happy to talk Freemasonry, so you can have a true interpretation of Freemasonry. not the minority splinter groups, the "irregular" factions and the basic arses that have managed to join.

Then maybe people like yourself, and Freemasonry together, would be able to solve the issues you have with the fraternity.

Attack is not always the best form of defense. Knowledge is the true power, and the knowledge is no secret.

Saturnino
11-18-2005, 06:49 AM
Bondi,

I have a good friend who used to be 32 degree Mason. He eventually received Christ and left Masonry for its incompatibility with the faith. He is as good as anyone can be. He said he never saw Luciferianism there, only the regular occultist lore and the ceremonies. I believe in him. On the other hand, he said that there was a wall separating the people from the 33 degree, that only some special privileged people would receive the degree, that it could not be earned.

Therefore, I believe you probably have good intentions, like my friend had. Maybe your lodge is all about philantropy and nothing more. I think it is possible that some lodges are not in the overall scheme, just because there are so many of them and it is impossible to control them all.

But I also believe you are only seeing, like the story goes, the tail of the elephant and you are calling it a snake.

I hope you consider the testimonies of higher rank Masons who left the lodge, and especially read Masonry Beyond the Light, from Bill Schonebelen. God has a way to show people of good heart what is wrong: I pray He will eventually show it to you. Sometimes those things have to happen with us so we believe.

11-18-2005, 07:23 AM
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

I have a good friend who used to be 32 degree Mason.

You are talking about the Scottish Rite, and from your location that would be American style. Things are done alot differently around the world. You have to remember Freemasonry is global.


Saturnino wrote:
He eventually received Christ and left Masonry for its incompatibility with the faith.

I have no problem with this, and Freemasonry will actually encourage you to leave it you feel it condradicts your faith in any way.


Saturnino wrote:
He is as good as anyone can be. He said he never saw Luciferianism there, only the regular occultist lore and the ceremonies. I believe in him.

Depends what you mean by Occultist, Occult in its basic form merely means hidden. To which effeect any symbol is Occult by nature.


Saturnino wrote:
On the other hand, he said that there was a wall separating the people from the 33 degree, that only some special privileged people would receive the degree, that it could not be earned.

I am afraid it is the other way round, you can only earn the 33rd degree. Being a 32nd degree mason in the Scottish Rite is no great achievement, you can do it in a day and there is no selction procedure, you just need to be a Master Mason.

As for wall, I presume you mean that figuratively and that is all it is. The same as there is a figurative wall between the different ranks of clergy. There are meetings that only bishops and above can attend, in rome how many have the right to vote for the new pope. These kind of things are everywhere you find hierarchy.


Saturnino wrote:
Therefore, I believe you probably have good intentions, like my friend had.

Is it so hard to believe that most Freemasons are, and those that are "bad" are in such a minority there is no way they have a hold of the whole.


Saturnino wrote:
Maybe your lodge is all about philantropy and nothing more. I think it is possible that some lodges are not in the overall scheme, just because there are so many of them and it is impossible to control them all.

The size of Freemasonry itself would make it impossible for it to be a conspiracist organisation. I have admitted that you will find lodges that are not masonic in nature and simple wear the aprons, there are many that talk the talk, that cannot walk the walk. We want them out as much as you do.


Saturnino wrote:
But I also believe you are only seeing, like the story goes, the tail of the elephant and you are calling it a snake.

This is quite possible, but that also works both ways. I never understand how conspiracy theorist find it so irrational that someone involved with it knows more than they do?


Saturnino wrote:
I hope you consider the testimonies of higher rank Masons who left the lodge,

I wont find a Freemason who holds a higher rank than me.

and especially read Masonry Beyond the Light, from Bill Schonebelen. God has a way to show people of good heart what is wrong: I pray He will eventually show it to you. Sometimes those things have to happen with us so we believe.

Like i said before the issue is not of those who leave or oppose the craft for religious grounds. I commend that action as you need to be true to your faith above all else.

My faith is not yours though, so maybe your issues with me should be regarding my faith and not regarding my memberships?

Saturnino
11-18-2005, 07:33 AM
Bondi,

maybe you won't find a Mason with a higher rank than yours in your area, but then it doesn't mean that other "fraternities" and more "ranks" exist. The evidence from testimonies point to the fact that there could be even 90 degrees that go beyond Masonry. That's why it is so easy for a high priest of Satanism to get a 33rd degree. It really doesn't mean much to them. Masonry is way down in their scale. The fact is that degrees really mean nothing...it is power (including spiritual) that counts for them. The degrees follow.

Bondi, you are the one going to a secret society and you call me a conspiracy nut ?

11-18-2005, 07:48 AM
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

maybe you won't find a Mason with a higher rank than yours in your area, but then it doesn't mean that other "fraternities" and more "ranks" exist.

Not in Freemasonry there isn't. Anything that claims to be a more senior rank than me, is not Freemasonry, I can assure you of that.


Saturnino wrote:
The evidence from testimonies point to the fact that there could be even 90 degrees that go beyond Masonry.

That would be the Ancient & Primitive Rite of Freemasonry , and exclusively Christian Chivalric order, which is irregular Freemasonry. Most recent attempts to peddle this clandestine rite has been made by a chap of the name Rui, who is also to do with the Cabinda political party. NOT MASONIC and NOT FREEMASONRY, a wolve in sheeps clothing as it were.


Saturnino wrote:
That's why it is so easy for a high priest of Satanism to get a 33rd degree. It really doesn't mean much to them.

Only in the Americas, like I said Freemasonry is global and Americas is the only place where it is so easy.


Saturnino wrote:
Masonry is way down in their scale. The fact is that degrees really mean nothing...it is power (including spiritual) that counts for them.

Then why the persecution of Freemasonry, this whole section is about the slanderous notion being batted about regarding Freemasonry, and now masonry is way down the list and not really of importance?


Saturnino wrote:
Bondi, you are the one going to a secret society and you call me a conspiracy nut ?

Can you answer me one question, Why do you class Freemasonry a secret society, what is it that you actually think is secret?

Saturnino
11-18-2005, 11:43 AM
What does it matter if it is not called Masonry but it CONTROLS Masonry ? The elite, call them Illuminati, The Brotherhood, The Council or whatever you want, use lots of different groups. Masonry is just one of them, but probably the most useful because of its numbers.

The secrecy about Masonry is not really about who is a member (even though sometimes it also is) but about what they do inside the lodge, and the real nature of their objectives and beliefs.

11-21-2005, 05:11 AM
Saturnino wrote:
What does it matter if it is not called Masonry but it CONTROLS Masonry ?

Nothing controls Freemasonry, of that i can assure you. There is no central point. Each state and country controls their own area.

If you have a problem in a State, then the problem stops at the border.


Saturnino wrote:
The elite, call them Illuminati, The Brotherhood, The Council or whatever you want, use lots of different groups.

But the butt stops with Freemasonry, no other group receives so much persecution. The reason for this is because we are open and let people see us.

If Freemasonry was truly a secret organisation, you wouldn't know as much as you do, people wouldn't know as much as they do.

There are many secretive orgs of which I am sure you and others know nothing, and that is why they are not talked about it. Freemasonry has tried to be more and more open as the years pass, and face further and further persecution the more it allows people to see.


Saturnino wrote:
Masonry is just one of them, but probably the most useful because of its numbers.


quality has always out done quantity.


Saturnino wrote:
The secrecy about Masonry is not really about who is a member (even though sometimes it also is) but about what they do inside the lodge,

I have already told you what happens in th lodge, but it is not very exciting to the conspiracy theorist, who wnats to pin the tail on the donkey. It doesn't fit the profile of power hungry people hell bent on world domination.


Saturnino wrote:
and the real nature of their objectives and beliefs.

The objective of Freemasonry, to make good men better. It encourages men to be good, kind, generous, and to treat all fairly, and as equals.

Freemasonry's only belief is that all people are equal.

I know this doesn't fit into what you all seem to want it to be, but this is FREEMASONRY as it is practised globally.

The little pockets of power hungry idiots who've watched too much hollywood wouldn't even make up 1% of the membership.

truebeliever
11-21-2005, 09:12 AM
It encourages men to be good, kind, generous, and to treat all fairly, and as equals.

Freemasonry's only belief is that all people are equal.

I know this doesn't fit into what you all seem to want it to be, but this is FREEMASONRY as it is practised globally.

Whens the revoloution Comrade? Will we be using our "strong arm"?

I've heard these statements before somewhere at some other point in time.

11-21-2005, 09:15 AM
:-P

igwt
11-21-2005, 11:35 AM
Nor are women about to be admitted to the male-only inner sanctum, although in America they are allowed to join affiliated organisations.

RickRoss (http://www.rickross.com/reference/freemasonry/freemasonry5.html)

11-21-2005, 12:05 PM
Freemasonry's only belief is that all people are equal.

Then Freemasonry is blind and stupid. Even the Bible does not state this in any form. People should be equal under human law yes, but in any other way common observation proves the opposite.

11-21-2005, 03:32 PM
igwt wrote:
Nor are women about to be admitted to the male-only inner sanctum.

Don't know about inner sanctum, women are not allowed in Freemasonry full stop. Thats why it's called a Faternity, it's male only.

11-21-2005, 03:33 PM
623542643468 wrote:
Freemasonry's only belief is that all people are equal.

Then Freemasonry is blind and stupid. Even the Bible does not state this in any form. People should be equal under human law yes, but in any other way common observation proves the opposite.

Freemasonry is a human organisation, and does not profess to be above the law.

It treats all humans as equal.

11-21-2005, 03:48 PM
And that is how it should be here and now.

truebeliever
11-21-2005, 06:30 PM
Then Freemasonry is blind and stupid. Even the Bible does not state this in any form. People should be equal under human law yes, but in any other way common observation proves the opposite.

Thats the first and only basic, obvious point you've made.

Well done.

Keep it up bitch, the cure may be near.

truebeliever
11-21-2005, 06:38 PM
Freemasonry is a human organisation, and does not profess to be above the law.

It treats all humans as equal.

I'm sorry mate. You may well be a nice guy but you are making ridiculous statements about Masonry.

You are either lying or so far down the bottom rungs it's in the basement.

You're beloved Scottish/York Rite Masonry is powerful in Western Oz. It fills the ranks of the Judiciary (Purple Circle) and Police Service (including Knights Templar).

I know EXACTLY how they work. I know first hand of the corruption they wreak.

It's time you listened to the people here. You are either lying and a paid hack or are incredibly nieve.

I'm sorry if I offend you. Your "friends" in the higher levels are as corrupt as hell and the oaths of Masons are well known. You are defending the indefensible. I will have to avoid these threads as I find what you write incredibly nieve in the extreme. It is like watching someone defend their membership of the Italian Gentlemans Club by saying their are a few bad apples but they give generously to the local charities. Or maybe that the "Coffin Cheater" motorcycle gang are good because they give money to childrens hospitals and collect furry toys for kids. Mate, you are SO blind it's scary.

Get out and stand alone, with your local community where you live. Join a PTA or something and do something useful.

All the best.

11-21-2005, 07:24 PM
Then do that and move your goddamn arse on.

truebeliever
11-22-2005, 12:01 AM
Anonamouse? What a gutless dog. Stand up ya bitch. Come on. Bring it on. Pathetic.

11-22-2005, 03:29 AM
truebeliever wrote:
I'm sorry mate. You may well be a nice guy but you are making ridiculous statements about Masonry.

Mine are ridiculous? Have you read the other posts around here. They say people will believe anything, some of the stuff here proves way beyond that.


truebeliever wrote:
You are either lying or so far down the bottom rungs it's in the basement.


This is the only argument isn't it. If I do not concur with what you believe to be true, then it must be because I am so far down the ladder.

The trouble is, you don't even know what ladder you are talking about.

Do you know anything of Freemasonry outside Oz, probably not, the only stuff will be what you have read on kook sites like Freemasonry Watch etc. You have to consider the source of the information.

I don't mean to be rude to you, but you have said a few times now if your are wrong you stand up and say so. I have pointed out twice, and some one else has also comments, regarding you post and the flag outside the house down your road. It clearly is not masonic, but your thread starts, tell me I'm wrong. You haven't acknowledged your error, there is nothing masonic about the flag, so my incling is maybe the information you rely on so much will be of similar quality.

I came here willing to answer any question, but you have no reason to ask, you will not believe anything I say, unless it is what you already think. Your mind is closed to hate and fear, whether you wish to admit it or not.


truebeliever wrote:
You're beloved Scottish/York Rite Masonry is powerful in Western Oz.

I have no time for SR or YR, for one they are non-existant in England, the SR is gifted out too easy with no requirement. This is the bit I don't understand. You claim they are so powerful, yet ANY Master Mason can get all the way up to 32 in a day. YR, is a collective of other bodies, Mark, Chapter, Mariners etc.


truebeliever wrote:
It fills the ranks of the Judiciary (Purple Circle) and Police Service (including Knights Templar).

And bin men, school teachers, local preachers, lawayers, office workers, council workers.[/quote]


truebeliever wrote:
I know EXACTLY how they work. I know first hand of the corruption they wreak.

Do you really, or do you feel you have been hard done by and need someone to blame?

Could it be the actual Police Service, or actual Judiscal System and not the fact that a couple of people that work there might be Freemasons?


truebeliever wrote:
It's time you listened to the people here. You are either lying and a paid hack or are incredibly nieve.

You mean like you have listened, or taken in, a single piece of information I have given you.


truebeliever wrote:
I'm sorry if I offend you.

It takes alot more than anonymous words of no substance to offend me.

If I got offended easy, why would I bother signing on to a site where i know I will only get insult and prejudice.


truebeliever wrote:
Your "friends" in the higher levels are as corrupt as hell and the oaths of Masons are well known.

There is no higher level than that which I have, so you are calling me corrupt?

You can get no higher in Freemasonry than I am right now, but I have told you this so already and again it is ignored because it does not fit in with your own opinion.

You say the oaths are well known, they can't be if they are so mis-quoted. Words are words, it is the interpretation that makes them good or bad, but again you wont believe a mason on his interpretation of the oath, as he has been taught it by the fraternity you claim is corrupt.

Where is the corruption really, in those who open up and tell you what you claim you want to know, of those who ignore the answer and continue to peddle falseties?


truebeliever wrote:
You are defending the indefensible. I will have to avoid these threads as I find what you write incredibly nieve in the extreme.

Freemasonry is not indefensible, technically I have not needed to defend it. You haven't spoken of it yet. The claims, other than those of faith issues, are so off the mark and most not even anything to do with Freemasonry that my responses have been merely an attempt to give you the correct information, highlight the errors in your current thinking.


truebeliever wrote:
Get out and stand alone, with your local community where you live. Join a PTA or something and do something useful.
All the best.

I stand here alone.

I sit at my computer for many hours a day, taking insults, prejudice and ignorance. Think about every conspiracy forum you know, how many times have you seen a mason listened to? Never.

Do you think I am here to change "your" mind. The prolific posters never change, I post here for those who actually want to discover the conspiracies and not, as I said before, "Play pin the tail on the donkey" those who read the posts and read the threads will have both sides, and will be able to make there own decision.

truebeliever
11-22-2005, 05:42 AM
Mate, I know them.

Nothing I say is from a book.

I used to look after sex workers and deal drugs. As an R.N i was often at the center of happenings and spoke extensively with Police. I have and have had many friends in the armed forces.

Do you get it?

Do you realise the dirt I have on the Elite here and who i speak to and who does what to whom?

I mean REAL movers and shakers.

You know nothing and are simply on the bottom rungs and no where near the action. You are what is known as "simple retail" and do not know who the wholesaler is or what he does.

I'm not trying to insult you.

You have again "stereotyped" and think you're talking to a 15 year old Ickian forum poster.

I told you people here have had DIRECT dealings with certain segments of society. You are clearly NOT in the loop. I am making a simple statement.

You have nothing to tell me nor enlighten me about. I am simply stating a fact.

Saturnino
11-22-2005, 05:51 AM
Bondi,

Your problem is very clear. You think your lodge is the representation of worldwide Masonry and you can't believe there is anything different, even though we have given you wide proof and testimonies of hundreds of defectors who told us otherwise.

It doesn't matter that we have books, official publications from Masonry and the fact that 9 in 10 Satanists and occultists are Masons. You are just obstinate. You remind me of those good Americans who are honest and patriot in their neighbourhoods and because they are good , they can't believe that their government is corrupt.

11-22-2005, 06:09 AM
truebeliever wrote:
Mate, I know them.

Who are they then?

The current "Top Dog" of Freemasonry in Australia spent Thirty years of with the same company. (Radio Rentals are a real controlling company full of conspiracy and have the police and judiscal departments in their pocket.)


truebeliever wrote:
Nothing I say is from a book.

I used to look after sex workers and deal drugs. As an R.N i was often at the center of happenings and spoke extensively with Police. I have and have had many friends in the armed forces.

Do you get it?


What do you think this makes you an expert in?



truebeliever wrote:
Do you realise the dirt I have on the Elite here and who i speak to and who does what to whom?

If they are so elitist, and control on the law enforcement, and you have so much dirt, why are you still here?


truebeliever wrote:
I mean REAL movers and shakers.


I dont think you know any.


truebeliever wrote:
You know nothing and are simply on the bottom rungs and no where near the action.

The famous argument yet again, you are obivoulsy getting flash backs from previous recreational research, and clearly cannot be coherent from your history. Thats about the same level as your above response.


truebeliever wrote:
You are what is known as "simple retail" and do not know who the wholesaler is or what he does.

I'm not trying to insult you.

It takes more than what you say to insult me, you do not have to worry.



truebeliever wrote:
You have again "stereotyped" and think you're talking to a 15 year old Ickian forum poster.


Ikeian, no.

15...What would give me that idea


truebeliever wrote:
really you whiny little bitch

Perhaps your father would have done better to pay a prostitute but I guess beggars cant be choosers

I put it up their. I make the claims and more often than not I BACK IT UP. I am bold but I am humble when corrected

if i could get my hands on you i'd thrash the living daylights out of you. LITERALLY.

Man up bitch. Put it up their bitch. Or shut your sniping bitch mouth.

etc etc etc


I may have to reconsider that as most 15 year olds in my area have more manners, restraint, tolerance and intellect when chosing insults.


truebeliever wrote:
I told you people here have had DIRECT dealings with certain segments of society. You are clearly NOT in the loop. I am making a simple statement.

I know the people at the top of Freemasonry in your area personally, simple statement.

Statements can be true or false, fact or fiction.

Name names if you know so much, "more often than not I BACK IT UP" show me!

[/quote]You have nothing to tell me nor enlighten me about. I am simply stating a fact.[/quote]

Prove it.

Ozzy_dopster
11-22-2005, 11:27 AM
You worked or talked with police OK, what was your GOOJFC? What did you show or say to them so they would turn and look thre other way? I think some people call these "white codes" or something like that or is that too mellowdramatic for the underworld?