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Ahmad
02-20-2005, 09:49 AM
Peace all,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40845000/jpg/_40845469_iraqmedicsafp300.jpg

These are Iraqis, have they been attacked by the Americans or the insurgents? No, they have attacked themselves!

Saddaam banned the Shitte festival of Ashura, but last year and this year they started celebrating the festival again in order to commemorate the martyrdom of their idol, Hussayn (Ali's son, and Muhammad's grandson).

[6:137] Thus were the idol worshipers duped by their idols, to the extent of killing their own children.In fact, their idols inflict great pain upon them, and confuse their religion for them. Had GOD willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

--------------------------------------------
Scarlet ritual by Shiites
02-19-2005

KARBALA, Iraq -- Shiites commemorating their holiest day yesterday flogged themselves with iron chains and sliced their foreheads with swords, slowly turning their cloaks scarlet in a ritual of grief that was banned under ousted dictator Saddam Hussein. For the second year in a row, hundreds of thousands of Shiite pilgrims marked the festival of Ashoura. Millions of pilgrims flock annually to Karbala and its twin city Najaf, two of the holiest Shiite cities
-------------------------------------------------
Read my full article on this satanic ritual,

www.usn2161.net/ashura.html

psholtz
02-20-2005, 11:05 AM
Gosh, that's nothing compared to the REAL satanic rituals that the Bush family undergoes on a regular basis (up at Skull&Bones and elsewhere)..

You guys hear about how George Junior was connected to those Satanic ritual murders in Matamoros MX/Brownsville TX back in the mid-1980s?

AISB_Watch
02-20-2005, 06:43 PM
psholtz wrote:
You guys hear about how George Junior was connected to those Satanic ritual murders in Matamoros MX/Brownsville TX back in the mid-1980s?

No, I haven't heard of it before. You have any links about the story and connections?

psholtz
02-20-2005, 08:46 PM
AISB_Watch wrote:

psholtz wrote:
You guys hear about how George Junior was connected to those Satanic ritual murders in Matamoros MX/Brownsville TX back in the mid-1980s?

No, I haven't heard of it before. You have any links about the story and connections?
Skolnick is usually a pretty reliable source:

Bush and Satanic Murders (http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=39&contentid=1396&page=1)

AISB_Watch
02-20-2005, 10:32 PM
Thanks. Skolnick makes some wild claims. Most of 'em usually pan out no matter how incredible. The only thing I don't like about his investigations is that he's all over the map. He gives little tidbits here and there and expects US to do the leg work. I will follow up on the books he recommended, but I'm no sleuth.


Obviously to detail all the persons and entities involved with the satanic cultists, human sacrifice locations, and drug-traffickers and mind-control dictators, in the Matamoros/ Brownsville region would and could fill a series of encyclopedias on the dope business, satanic cults, corrupted dope enforcers, and related topics.


Seems like the perfect book for him to pen, I mean he seems to have all the answers ... why not blow the whole thing wide open and write the definite magnum opus of corruption.

marypopinz
02-21-2005, 07:23 AM
Hey, are you guys talking about Bridewater, Nova Scotia?

The Prime Minister uses his stoolie RCMP to move the cocaine and lets not forget about the Satanists and the pedophiles involved in government. People who find out about "stuff" there end up 'suicided' through help of the Bridgewater Hospital. The whole province knows of what goes on there. Everyone keeps mumbling that something must be done.

The good R.C.M.P. , when approached with these truths, decline to investigate - point blank. Their usual response is "No, I won't investigate, I have kids." Translation, "If I investigate, they will fcuk with my children = I can't investigate.

Welcometo Nova Scotia. Ain't life corrupt?



Oh dear, it was Texas you were pointing at.
I'm pointing at Bridgewater.

Saturnino
02-22-2005, 04:51 PM
Peace Ahmad,

I don`t understand why you criticize the Shiites who flog themselves in Iraqi. Since Islam is a religion where salvation is earned by works, isn`t this flogging a great work of obedience ?

I know you don`t accept the forgiveness thru the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins. Therefore, I have a question : how do you ever know how much work or obedience or prayers, or knowledge (this goes to the gnostics too) is ENOUGH to get you to heaven ?

Are you sure you will be with God when you die ? Why ?

Ahmad
02-23-2005, 10:04 AM
Peace be unto you,

"I don`t understand why you criticize the Shiites who flog themselves in Iraqi. Since Islam is a religion where salvation is earned by works, isn`t this flogging a great work of obedience ?"

The Islam of today has been subverted from the original message of Muhammad (which is the final stage of Submission, the religion of Abraham), his message was Quran alone. 200 years after his death satanic fabrications called "Hadith" (Sayings falsely attributed to Muhammad) started appearing, now the "muslims" follow these books instead of Quran. The Shiites have their own books of "Hadith" and the Sunnis have other books, and that's why they are always fighting. Therefore these rituals are derived from another source than God and His Quran, it is obedience to Satan .


"I know you don`t accept the forgiveness thru the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins. Therefore, I have a question : how do you ever know how much work or obedience or prayers, or knowledge (this goes to the gnostics too) is ENOUGH to get you to heaven ?"


The matter is clear and simple, there are no mysteries or vague ideas (e.g:trinity). Every individual can redeem him or herself by applying a simple statement in his life: "There is no god except God".

First we have to disbelieve in the idea of "inherent" powers in things and people, thus all the knowledge of the prophets, messengers, saints and sages were from God, not from them, therefore there is no need to idolize them.

Same applies to material things and people, Satan binds us in slavery through the extreme attachment (whether repulsion or attraction, e.g: obsessions, phobias, hates and addictions).

He does that to distract us from God, once we liberate ourselves from these bonds and begin to see the reality from the illusion and start remembering and establishing the real bond with God, the Most Merciful will forgive us and admit us back to Heaven.

As simple as that, however most people prefer depending on things and people instead of God and that is what makes their lives miserable and unsatisfying because the creatures are unable by themselves to grant any harm or benefit.


"Are you sure you will be with God when you die ? Why ?"

If i guarantee Heaven to myself, what would be the reason of living!, the real "Jihaad" is to strive and overcome our temptations, to fight evil and stand for our rights, to resist our sinful lusts and distractions, and it's a continous process that goes on for life.

"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will recieve the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." James 1:12

Saturnino
03-16-2005, 08:09 AM
Ahmad,

respectfully, see that this is the main difference between our beliefs: "Jihaad" for you comes before salvation, for me it comes after.

I believe that I can't be reconciled to God and conquer sin without accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for me (he paid for my sins). My "Jihaad" is enabled by the Holy Spirit of God that guides me in obedience to His commands...and I do this not to achieve salvation (already given freely by faith in Jesus and impossible to be achieved by my efforts) but by gratitude to God.

Knowing that I am going to heaven gives me many more reasons to live...joy and gratitude to enjoy God`s blessings in my life, to point God to others, peace to know my sould is safe, so I can work on my personal "Jihaad".

By your answer, I understand that the response is no, you don`t know if you are going to heaven?

All the best,

marcos


QUOTE BEGINS:

"Are you sure you will be with God when you die ? Why ?"

If i guarantee Heaven to myself, what would be the reason of living!, the real "Jihaad" is to strive and overcome our temptations, to fight evil and stand for our rights, to resist our sinful lusts and distractions, and it's a continous process that goes on for life.

"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will recieve the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." James 1:12[/quote]

Ahmad
03-17-2005, 05:18 AM
Peace be upon you Marcos,


Jesus, who is Jesus? an honorable prophet, a human being, the son of man as he called himself.Never would God contradict Himself, the old testament warns from idolworship, it calls for the worship of God alone. Why would the new testament contradict this? there is no mention of the "trinity" dogma in the bible, it was all developed (or established) in the satanic "Nicene or Nicea" conference 325 Ad.

No messenger or prophet would call the people to worship him instead of the "God who sent him".

The idea of gaining salvation just by "accepting that Jesus died for your sins" is a satanic idea, i have no intention to insult your beliefs, but there is no other way to say it, it is the greatest hoax ever developed by Satan, trinity, salvation, return of Jesus, crucifixion, a whole new offshoot from the creed of Abraham.

Crucifixion = the victim mentality = Instilling fear, and playing on the people's emotions to make them idolize the poor tortured man.

Trinity = God has partners in His kingship, does He?

Return of Jesus = why, mission not finished?

The idea of sombody (a total stranger) dying to carry your sins is not logical, YOU and nobody but YOU are responsible for your sins, there is no escape from that responsbility, your Jinn companion is playing a dirty trick on you in order to give you an open excuse to commit sins since you have been redeemed already!


Trinity is a gross blasphemy, don't follow an idea except if you deep inside feel 100 % it's truthful, otherwise Satan may have duped you. The Tsunami (http://www.usn2161.net/christmastsunami.html) was a warning from God to the Chrsitians, would you heed the warning?

This life is the final chance of redemtion, a make up test, it is easy to say " I have passed already, i am just taking the exam out of gratitude!" but nothing can change the reality of the test, everybody id thoroughly tested in his daily life, will you submit to God alone, steadfastly persevere (infornt of temptation and hardships) or will you yield to Satan's control? accepting Jesus as your savior (against his will) is equal to rejecting God, choosing Satan as a master and following him to the inferno.

Do you want to waste your last chance in following ideas that you are not sure of? i think you are smarter than that Marcos, think deeply about this and ask God alone for an answer, nobody can guide you to the truth except God alone, or else wait for the retribution God has promised to the idolworshipers.

Christianity (http://www.usn2161.net/Christianity.html)

[35:18] No soul can carry the sins of another soul. If a soul that is loaded with sins implores another to bear part of its load, no other soul can carry any part of it, even if they were related. The only people to heed your warnings are those who reverence their Lord, even when alone in their privacy, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat). Whoever purifies his soul, does so for his own good. To GOD is the final destiny.

Saturnino
03-17-2005, 05:36 AM
<quote>
Crucifixion = the victim mentality = Instilling fear, and playing on the people's emotions to make them idolize the poor tortured man. <end quote>

Ahmad, crucifixion is exactly the opposite of fear for a Christian. It means that Jesus paid for our sins, so you don`t have to fear judgement. That`s why I asked you about your assurance of salvation, which you said you don`t have. So, who is living in fear, me or you ?

<quote>
Trinity = God has partners in His kingship, does He?

Return of Jesus = why, mission not finished?
<end quote>

Jesus mission was not finished. He broke the curse of sin and death and offered a way to salvation. He will come back one day, when He decides, and then wrap up the whole situation. He is God, and He has the right to decide when things happen, how many people He wants to save, etc.

<quote>

The idea of sombody (a total stranger) dying to carry your sins is not logical, YOU and nobody but YOU are responsible for your sins, there is no escape from that responsbility, your Jinn companion is playing a dirty trick on you in order to give you an open excuse to commit sins since you have been redeemed already!
<end quote>

First, Jesus is not a total stranger, He is God. And here we have the FOCUS point of this discussion. If I am responsible for my sins, then I (and you) have to go to hell, for everybody has sinned. Haven`t you ever sinned Ahmad ? How do you reconcile your sins with the holiness of God ? They are not compatible. We desperately need Jesus forgiveness because we are not worthy to face God in our sinful state.

About the Jinn (demon) telling me to sin, all I can say is that any demon fears the name of Jesus most than anything. Also, the Bible is clear that we are not supposed to go on sinning. It is Romans, very clear. Jesus also said: your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more.


<quote>
This life is the final chance of redemtion, a make up test, it is easy to say " I have passed already, i am just taking the exam out of gratitude!" but nothing can change the reality of the test, everybody id thoroughly tested in his daily life, will you submit to God alone, steadfastly persevere (infornt of temptation and hardships) or will you yield to Satan's control? accepting Jesus as your savior (against his will) is equal to rejecting God, choosing Satan as a master and following him to the inferno.
<end quote>

Again, that's the point. You will fail the test, because you (and me) are a sinner. When you die and face God, he will ask you if you should enter heaven because of your deeds. then you will say that you did your Jihaad the best way you could. Then God will show a thousand sins that you commited that make you guilty and say you are not worthy of heaven, for heaven requires purity.

Ahmad, usually people won`t accept Jesus because they are too proud to admit that they are hopeless sinners and that there is no amount of good deeds and works that will purify them. Think about it and check if this is not the case. That was my problem too. It took God a heavy hand, a real feeling of my sinfulness in order to make me accept the sacrifice of Him for me.

Even if you never accept Jesus, think about it: all the religions of the world require some sort of work in order to get to heaven. Christianity is the only one based on forgiveness. If ever you come to think that you need this forgiveness, you know where to look for it.

All the best,

Ahmad
03-17-2005, 07:38 AM
Peace,



"usually people won`t accept Jesus because they are too proud to admit that they are hopeless sinners and that there is no amount of good deeds and works that will purify them."


You talk about sin as if it's an unremovable stain!, nobody is hopless Except if he wants to be!

Most of the corrupt religions have this idea about "the dirty soul that cannot be washed" ! the muslims actually say exactly the same albeit they replaced Jesus with Muhammad and the saints.

I have news to you Marcos, we were all born with a weak part of ourselves that we developed in Heaven (when we had doubts that God alone is the Source of all power; skill, knowledge, beauty, absolute values, looks, provisions...etc) our egos developed as a result of accepting Satan's idea that the creatures (forbidden tree, Jesus, materials things, saints..etc are the source of their power). The creatures that refused to accept Satan's blasphemy were categorized as "the angels", as for those who leaned strongly towards Satan were classified as the Jinn-beings, God then offered the remaining minority of rebels another chance of redemption, all the creatures in the Heavens and the earth (mountains, planets, animals, plants, to the smallest atom) accepted to serve a limited period of time (doing submissive roles like the animals, dogs, sun and moon) in order to redeem their doubts. The only creatures who refused and decided to watch a demonstration of Satan's idea was the ignorant human.

God then created this earth and sent Satan along with the rebels to watch a live demonstration of satan's ability (that he claimed) to turn God creation into independent powers, what is importanty is that the record starts from ZERO, God forgave us all (along with Adam and his wife) because of the sin of the forbidden tree (which is actually a symbol of relating powers to the creatures instead of God, in the case of the tree Satan claimed that it can give eternal life "on its own"), why did God forgive us that time! because we implored Him for forgivness, on earth we start from zero sins.

Whenever the God-revering people sin, they remember God immediately and ask for forgivness, and the Most Merciful forgives as He wills. As simple as that, then we may yield again unknowingly to Satan's control and start bonding with the creatures instead of God (by depending on them) but God forgives.

The only unforgivable sin is "idolworship" which is the state of totally believing that the creatures (men and things) are capable "on their own" of granting any benefit or causing harm, or believing that their skills, beauty, knowledge, powers are from them and not from God. If this changes from a temporariy state to a permenant state and if we die on that state, we are promised the retribution of the inferno (allegorical description).

Furthermore all the idol-worshipers are promised that their idols will bring them misery and hardships in this life as well, a small example is someone who idolizes money, as he depends on it phsycologically (for security) it will take him with it up and down causing misery and ever increasing despair in his heart, why? because the link between the money (unstable, powerless) and God was severed by the money-worshiper.

There is no such "perfect, purer than me" soul, we are all fallible, we all err, Jesus had his sins, believe it or not!

You can be better than Jesus, how ? by overcoming your sinful lusts, by not being afraid of anybody or anything, by not being obsessed with anything, by keeping your heart God-centered.

You are resposnible.

[4:48] GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.




[3:31] Proclaim: "If you love GOD, you should follow me." GOD will then love you, and forgive your sins. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.



-----------------------------------------------------
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

marypopinz
03-17-2005, 09:53 AM
"He is much too glorious to have a son."

I'm not buying this remark.

God has many children, many sons and many daughters. God can do anything and jesus could very well be God's only son. Only God and Jesus know that fact for certain and the rest of us may live in hope.

My opinion.

Saturnino
03-17-2005, 03:41 PM
Ahmad,

I believe Jesus never sinned. This is the precondition for him to be the perfect Lamb, the perfect substitute sacrifice.

And about the possibility of being less of a sinner than Jesus, I know for a fact that this will not be true for me or anybody else. People do and think bad things ALL the time. My friend, you and me, we both sinned probably hundreds of times today. We are proud, we are vain, we want to have our way.

Once I met a Budhist monk and told him that I didn`t need his religion because Christ had paid my karma for me, and that he should accept his forgiveness too. He was really mad (a sign of sin) and told me he didn`t need forgiveness because he was a monk...how people live in dellusion. Talk about the sin of pride.

It seems you think that I want to be off the hook, that this forgiveness gives me license to do anything I want. But it is quite the contrary. Once you receive Jesus as Savior, the Holy Spirit of God gets a grip on you, and when you sin, you feel really bad. I mean, ten times worse than before. Also, you always end up screwed. An unbeliever may steal 10 times and never get caught, but a Christian will steal once and God will make sure He will get caught and pay. I`ve seen this happen often. I tell you, life gets more difficult in this aspect. I firmly believe that gross, constant, unrepented sin from a Christian can even lead to death by the hands of God. In the book of Romans, Paul says that forgiveness is NOT an excuse for sin.

Ahmad, only the Holy Spirit can reveal this need of forgiveness and our inability to go to heaven by our deeds. This is the KEY to salvation, because there is no salvation without repentance. I pray He shows it to you.

Thanks for the gentlemanly discussion.

get_real
03-17-2005, 04:00 PM
"God is a state of life that has nothing to do with religion"

Ahmad--

You said, "usually people won't accept Jesus because they are too proud...."

Again,you sound like a salesman trying to tell me what I need and what I need to do.

No offense Ahmad--- but at times it sounds like you take advantage of this subject, because you can twist it well, and try to reduce someone to a level of total idiot.

I cannot understand how anyone who lives their life to the best of their ability, a clean life, not kill anyone, not steal, not harm their family or neighbor, be rejected by God. (?)

No, Ahmad, in my heart I feel that if this God is a good God, he will not let any of his sheep wonder off. He will find them, and bring them home. YOU do not have to do that for anyone. And I don't have to submit to anything that 'man' tells me about God.

Ahmad
03-18-2005, 03:57 AM
Peace,


All i can say is that God have sent us a written message from outer space, that message has a clear warning against idolizing Jesus. In 1974 a purifying messenger (Rashad Khalifa) was sent to give us a confirmation, 19 (www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html), of all the truths in the scriptures, as well as purify the religion of God from the satanic injections. If you have doubts about this message, please verify the proof for yourself, the proof confirms that Quran (that is ironically never used by the muslims) is God's final message to you.

------------------------------------------------

Appendix 22
of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa

Also it is FAQ # 9
Jesus, the Quranic view.
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

The Quran, informs us that Jesus was a human messenger of God whose sole mission was to deliver God's message; he never possessed any power, and is now dead (4:171, 5:75, 117).
Those who consider Jesus to be God, or Son of God, or part of a trinity are "pagans" (5:17, 72, 73). Outstanding Christian scholars have reached these same conclusions (THE MYTH OF GOD INCARNATE, John Hick, ed., The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977 & THE MYTH MAKER, Hyam Maccoby,Harper & Row 1986). Christianity is the product of Nicene (AD 325).
The Bible's Jesus

Jesus proclaimed aloud: ``Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; ..... For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.'' [ John 12:44-50 ]

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

Jesus said: ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me.'' [ John 7:16 ]

"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials. These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know."
[ Acts 2:22 ]

``...The man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life.''
[ John 5:24 ]

"Whoever welcomes me welcomes, not me, but him who sent me."
[ Matthew 10:40, Mark 9:37, Luke 9:48, & John 13:20 ]

``...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I come; he sent me.'' [ John 7:28-29 ]

Jesus looked up to heaven and said, ``...Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.'' [ John 17:1-3 ]

All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
[ Romans 8:14 ]

Jesus looked upward and said, ``Father, I thank you for having heard me. I know that you always hear me but I have said this for the sake of the crowd, that they may believe that you sent me.''
[ John 11:41-42 ]

As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, ``Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?'' Jesus answered, ``Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'' [ Mark 10:17-18 ]

``None of those who call me `Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
[ Matthew 7:21 ]

``...Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' '' [ John 20:17 ]

``God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[ Quran 3:51, 19:36, & 43:64 ]

Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that God is one in essence but three in ``person,'' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such,
appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ``Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one'' (Deut. 6:4).
[ Encyclopedia Britannica, 1975 ]
Jesus' Death

This has been the single most controversial subject in the world. The Quran's miraculous mathematical code has now provided the final answer to this topic:

Jesus' soul was raised, i.e., he was put to death prior to the arrest and crucifixion of his body. Thus, his persecutors arrested, tortured, and crucified an empty body - Jesus was already gone to the world of souls (3:55, 4:157).

They plotted and schemed, but so did God, and God is the best schemer. Thus, God said,
``O Jesus, I am putting you to death, and raising you to Me; I will save you from the disbelievers.''
[ Quran 3:54-55 ]

They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God! In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified him; they were led to believe that they did.
[ Quran 4:157 ]

Mercifully, God has given our generation a living example of a person whose soul departed this world, but his body continued to live for 19 months. On November 25, 1984, doctors at the Humana Hospital of Louisville, Kentucky removed the diseased heart of Mr. William Schroeder and replaced it with a plastic and metal pump (THE NEW YORK TIMES, Monday, November 26, 1984).

On the 19th day after this historic operation - Thursday, December 13, 1984 - Mr. Schroeder, the soul, the real person, departed this world. Mr. Schroeder died. But his body continued to function with the artificial heart implanted in his body. The world was told that he "probably suffered a stroke" (THE NEW YORK TIMES, December 14, 1984).

Significantly, only one day before Mr. Schroeder's departure, he talked with President Ronald Reagan on national TV, and demanded that the Social Security Administration send his overdue check. He was
perfectly alert. From the moment "he suffered a stroke," he did not recognize the day or time, nor his family members. In fact, Mr.Schroeder was no longer in this world.
The Gospels state clearly that the arrested body of Jesus was oblivious to the events surrounding it: The chief priests, meanwhile, brought many accusations against Jesus. Pilate interrogated him again: "Surely you have some answer? See how many accusations they are leveling against you."
But greatly to Pilate's surprise, Jesus made no further response. [ Mark 15:3-5 ]
Herod was extremely pleased to see Jesus. From the reports about him he had wanted for a long time to see him, and he was hoping to see him work some miracles. He questioned Jesus at considerable length, but Jesus made no response. The chief priests and scribes were at hand to accuse him vehemently. Herod and his guards then treated him with contempt and insult. [ Luke 23:8-11 ]

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is the fleshly part. [Apocalypse of Peter, VII, 3, 81] from THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY (Harper & Row, 1977, James M.Robinson, ed, Page 339).

The facts that
(1) Mr. Schroeder's soul departed on the 19th day after the operation, and
(2) his body survived for 19 months, are uncanny reminders that God wanted the world to know the parallel between Schroeder's situation, and the proven account of Jesus' departure prior to the arrest, torture, and crucifixion of his soulless body.

Rashad Khalifa

landownunder
03-20-2005, 12:33 AM
Ahmad,

With all due respect i think you have carried this issue away from the actual topic, which was about the shiites flogging themselves.Very sad indeed.God doesnt need anyone to castrate themselves in such a manner to show him obedience and love.Not islam by any means.

Also about the tsunami and the lesson,if this was a sign for christianity why were the majority who suffered in that event muslims?

Natural disasters have been happening for centuries in many places.Natural disasters are not prejudice, they dont ask people for relgion or racial identity.

However we may say it is a sign from God for all to see and remember that we will also die one day.Whether you die in a plane crash, a natural death, a big natural disaster it is still death.Some die a more horrific death sleeping in their beds...
I am myself a muslim and i dont agree with you, making your views as sub topics under topics which have nothing related.You start a topic and then carry it away somewhere else.
If you want to preach a certain idea please start another topic and heading so people are not mislead.the 19 issue is deffinately a topic which doesnt interest me..
Thankyou

Ahmad
03-20-2005, 03:04 AM
Salamun Alaykum,
(Peace be unto you)


landownunder: "If you want to preach a certain idea please start another topic and heading so people are not mislead."


Marcos was the one who started the Jesus' talk, and it is my duty to respond accordingly,

Santurino said: "I know you don`t accept the forgiveness thru the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins. Therefore, I have a question : how do you ever know how much work or obedience or prayers, or knowledge (this goes to the gnostics too) is ENOUGH to get you to heaven ?"

-------------
landownunder: "Also about the tsunami and the lesson,if this was a sign for christianity why were the majority who suffered in that event muslims?"


The majority were muslims indeed, Indonesia the worst hit country is the largest muslim country in the world. I say in my article (Another Noah's flood, why in Christams? (http://www.usn2161.net/christmastsunami.html)) that it was a punishment for the muslims because of their following the unauthorized Hadith books instead of Quran.


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landownunder: "Natural disasters have been happening for centuries in many places.Natural disasters are not prejudice, they dont ask people for relgion or racial identity."


Well, they have been happening for centuries, but only a few took them seriously and heeded the message. There are no coincidences whatsoever in this world, there is only blind people.

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landownunder: "the 19 issue is deffinately a topic which doesnt interest me."


The 19 issue can cost you eternity! God describes the guilty that they will run away from his reminder (19) like zebras fleeing from a lion. How could you dismiss a subject without acquiring knowledge about it first!


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19 (www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html)
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A Warning to the Human race

God clarified to us its function in chapter 74 of Quran titled (The Hidden Secret) translated by Rashad Khalifa:

[74:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[74:1] O you hidden secret.

[74:2] Come out and warn.

[74:3] Extol your Lord.

[74:4] Purify your garment.

[74:5] Forsake what is wrong.

[74:6] Be content with your lot.

[74:7] Steadfastly commemorate your Lord.
*74:1 God's infinite wisdom willed to reveal the Quran through Muhammad, while the Quran's awesome 19-based mathematical miracle was revealed through God's Messenger of the Covenant 1406 lunar years after revelation of the Quran (1406=19x74 & 1974 AD was the Solar Year of discovery). In retrospect, we realize that the whole sura refers to the Quran's 19-based miracle (Appendix 1 & 2 ).

*74:4 Quran is the garment containing the secret code. This refers to removing 9:128-129. Rashad khalifa


[74:8] Then, when the horn is blown.

[74:9] That will be a difficult day.

[74:10] For the disbelievers, not easy.

[74:11] Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.

[74:12] I provided him with lots of money.

[74:13] And children to behold.

[74:14] I made everything easy for him.

[74:15] Yet, he is greedy for more.

[74:16] He stubbornly refused to accept these proofs.

[74:17] I will increasingly punish him.

[74:18] For he reflected, then decided.

[74:19] Miserable is what he decided.

[74:20] Miserable indeed is what he decided.

[74:21] He looked.

[74:22] He frowned and whined.

[74:23] Then he turned away arrogantly.

[74:24] He said, "This is but clever magic!

[74:25] "This is human made."

[74:26] I will commit him to retribution.

[74:27] What retribution!

[74:28] Thorough and comprehensive.

[74:29] Obvious to all the people.

The Quran's Common Denominator

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

[74:32] Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.

[74:33] And the night as it passes.

[74:34] And the morning as it shines.

One of the Great Miracles

[74:35] This is one of the great miracles.

[74:36] A warning to the human race.

[74:37] For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.

[74:38] Every soul is trapped by its sins.

[74:39] Except for those on the right.

[74:40] While in Paradise, they will ask.

[74:41] About the guilty.

[74:42] "What brought you to this retribution?"

[74:43] They will say, "We did not observe the contact prayers (Salat).

[74:44] "We did not feed the poor.

[74:45] "We blundered with the blunderers.

[74:46] "We disbelieved in the Day of Judgment.

[74:47] "Until certainty came to us now." *74:30-35 This ``One of the great miracles'' provides the first physical evidence that the Quran is God's message to the world. This 19-based miracle is detailed in Appendix 1.

[74:48] The intercession of the intercessors will never help them.

[74:49] Why are they so averse to this reminder?

[74:50] Running like zebras.

[74:51] Who are fleeing from the lion!

[74:52] Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally?

[74:53] Indeed, they do not fear the Hereafter.

[74:54] Indeed, this is a reminder.

[74:55] For those who wish to take heed.

[74:56] They cannot take heed against GOD's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness.

landownunder
03-21-2005, 01:48 AM
Ahmad,

I take your reason for the topic diversion.
Sorry for not reading more carefully.


Also,I have not denied the ayat of 19."Aleyha Tis'ata Ashar". Among them are 19.
However the topic does not interest me because
,I do not need to indulge my self with mathematical equations to Beleive the Kur'an is the word of God.

Just answer me this.. Rashid Khalifa has anounced the last 2 verses of Surah Tevbe as not being part of the Kur'an because it doesnt fit in with his 19 equations,so for 1400 years people have been reading a Kur'an which has been incorrect?
What kind of a God was it that sent a book and couldnt protect it for 1400 hundred years like he says in another verse of the Kur'an?

This is where we come into disagreement.Rashid Khalifa's claim is that the Kur'an was a book with an extra 2 verses which makes it a book taunted by man, where the muslims greatest defence to the non muslim world is that the Kur'an is a book not interfered or changed by man.
Your Rashid Khalifa has tried to contradict this beleif.

You say people were punished for their submission to hadith, Muslims have been submissive to hadith for centuries and centuries, why were they not punished by natural disasters?
The greatest Islamic states in history who ruled with justice followed hadith, why were some of them able to rule in justice for centuries?
Your claims take everyone who has followed Islam in these 1400 years to be morons.Because everyone for the past 1400 years followed hadith.And offcourse followed hadith second only to the Kur'an

Think carefully...

Ahmad
03-21-2005, 04:26 AM
landownunder: "Also,I have not denied the ayat of 19."Aleyha Tis'ata Ashar". Among them are 19.
However the topic does not interest me because
,I do not need to indulge my self with mathematical equations to Beleive the Kur'an is the word of God."


When God says "Over it is 19", He means it is His profound sign (signature) on the whole universe including the scriptures. God also says that it is one of the great miracles, a reminder for all humanity. Now by rejecting a sign God is showing you, you are rejecting Him with it. This is the litmus test, why it has been a secret for 1400 years? we cannot question God's wisdom.

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landownunder: "Just answer me this.. Rashid Khalifa has anounced the last 2 verses of Surah Tevbe as not being part of the Kur'an because it doesnt fit in with his 19 equations,so for 1400 years people have been reading a Kur'an which has been incorrect?
What kind of a God was it that sent a book and couldnt protect it for 1400 hundred years like he says in another verse of the Kur'an?"



There is a difference between Quran (the scripture) and the "Mushaf" (the printed book). Some mushafs in the world now are circulating with a lot of print errors, missing words..etc, can we ask your question in this case too? why God didn't protect his book from the printing errors!

As far as we are concerened, the scripture always had the 6346 (19x334) proven verses intact, as for the two false verses (which exalt Muhammad) the sincere always had doubts about them, untill God sent us the messenger of the covenant to clear this matter. One of the functions of 19 is ([74:4] Purify your garment.) which means to purify the book from the satanic injections. The miracle is a perfect security system, if one word is changed, the whole mathematical composition falls apart. God indeed did preserve his miracle within the scripture and kept it hidden for 1400 years, in 1974 it was time to purify the religion of Abraham once and forall from the satanic fabrications.

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landownunder: "You say people were punished for their submission to hadith, Muslims have been submissive to hadith for centuries and centuries, why were they not punished by natural disasters?"

Isn't the muslim world's condition enough punishment! the most ignoranrt, undeveloped, defeated countries in the world are muslims, haven't you asked yourself why!. However the direct punishments are now starting, as per this verse which says that God doesn't punish except after sending a warning messenger, Rashad Khalifa did warn the muslim world of disregarding Quran in favor of Hadith, and that's why they killed him in 1990.

[17:15] Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger.

--------------

landownunder: "The greatest Islamic states in history who ruled with justice followed hadith, why were some of them able to rule in justice for centuries?"

Which states do you mean exactly? do you mean the sultans who had vast palaces and harem, or the corrupt khalifas?

-----------------

landownunder: "Your claims take everyone who has followed Islam in these 1400 years to be morons.Because everyone for the past 1400 years followed hadith.And offcourse followed hadith second only to the Kur'an"

There are those who follow the corrupt laws of Hadith unwittingly, i for one used to follow some of the false practices because i didn't know better, and i believe God forgives those who sin out of ignorance. But when God sends you a reminder, your responsbility begins, as for you i hold you responsible to verify the miracle and make a decision regarding it, you either reject a messenger and a message from God and end up in hell or embrace the message and follow the guidance, you are responsible now infront of God, there is no escape from Him, you have recieved the reminder and you have to give God a response.

[2:38] We said, "Go down therefrom, all of you. When guidance comes to you from Me, those who follow My guidance will have no fear, nor will they grieve.

[46:32] Those who fail to respond to GOD's call cannot escape, and will have no Lord other than Him; they have gone far astray.

You have a once in a lifetime chance, don't lose it.

buckshotBill
03-21-2005, 10:12 AM
God does not ask anyone to submit

landownunder
03-21-2005, 05:04 PM
Ahmad,

When God says "Over it is 19", He means it is His profound sign (signature) on the whole universe including the scriptures. God also says that it is one of the great miracles, a reminder for all humanity. Now by rejecting a sign God is showing you, you are rejecting Him with it. This is the litmus test, why it has been a secret for 1400 years? we cannot question God's wisdom.

Your answers are to vivid and need more and proper clarification.

As i said i am not rejecting a sign from GOD.the 19 miracle is indeed a great miracle.
What i am rejecting is the intolerence you adhere to the 1400 years of Islam.
You are taking things to far and rejecting everything before Rashad Khalifa.
How many Muslim Scholars that you people would respect have come before Rashad Khalifa?
Do you think Abu Hanifa, Imam Shaafi, Imam Ghazali, Imam Rabbani, Muhyiddin Al Arabi,Imam Yusuf, Imam Buhari, Imam Ahmed Hanbel, Rumi, and many many others i can name were all crooked?
What kind of ignorance and vanity is this that you reject everything that was islam for 1400 years.Did the muslims of the past 1400 years die on rejection? I want a proper answer.

You Say:
There is a difference between Quran (the scripture) and the "Mushaf" (the printed book). Some mushafs in the world now are circulating with a lot of print errors, missing words..etc, can we ask your question in this case too? why God didn't protect his book from the printing errors!

There is a difference between printing errors and and the removal of two full verses.As you know we have in Islam what we call "Hafeez". people who memorise the Kur'an, and you will find that they will all recite the very same recitations no matter what nationality they are.Which is also another miracle of the Kur'an.People memorising the Kur'an for centuries. No book that large can ever be memorized.has anyone memorized the Bible or the Torah?As for printing mistakes any one who reads the Kur'an can pick up these mistakes.An example is a Kur'an that was printed in Saudi Arabia had the printing mistakes and was picked up,not the people teaching the Kur'an by by the little children who were reciting it.
Therefore Allah Allmighty is continuing to protect his Book.
Also The Kur'an which was recited by Hz Osman May Allah be pleased with him still stands in it's original form in the Topkapi Museum Istanbul.If you have doubt , go check for yourself.


You Say:
As far as we are concerened, the scripture always had the 6346 (19x334) proven verses intact, as for the two false verses (which exalt Muhammad) the sincere always had doubts about them, untill God sent us the messenger of the covenant to clear this matter. One of the functions of 19 is ([74:4] Purify your garment.) which means to purify the book from the satanic injections. The miracle is a perfect security system, if one word is changed, the whole mathematical composition falls apart. God indeed did preserve his miracle within the scripture and kept it hidden for 1400 years, in 1974 it was time to purify the religion of Abraham once and forall from the satanic fabrications.

Muhammad Peace be upon him was the last messenger.Rashad Khalifa is not a messenger.Messengers have miracles, what miracle has Rashad Khalifa Shown? Oh and dont say he found the 19 equation because the 19 equation was something first stumbled upon by a Bahaain Monk, who also claimed to be a messenger.The 19 equation is the Miracle of Kur'an, and by stumbling up on it, or finding it does not make you a prophet.
The whole point is you people have taken this 19 matter so seriously you have gone as far as trying to remove verses from the Kur'an. Thankfully not many have followed your lead.
Allah has verily kept his promise and protected his Book.
How can you take "Purify your garment" as proof that you should remove ayats from the Kur'an.please Explain.Could it not mean, Purify your faith, purify your soul. We need this all the time.But offcourse this is to simple isnt it? After all the Kur'an is a book that shouldnt be simple as it was sent to mathematicians, and geniuses???

Isn't the muslim world's condition enough punishment! the most ignoranrt, undeveloped, defeated countries in the world are muslims, haven't you asked yourself why!. However the direct punishments are now starting, as per this verse which says that God doesn't punish except after sending a warning messenger, Rashad Khalifa did warn the muslim world of disregarding Quran in favor of Hadith, and that's why they killed him in 1990.

Te Muslim world has been suffering the past 100 years.Not because of its ignorance but because of the Games played upon it by the dark satanic forces.Muslims due to their kind nature and gullibility could never have imagined such a great game being played on them.Muslims kept balance in the world for many centuries. It was because of the great Islamic empire the ottomans (who had its mistakes, especially towards the end)that Europe could not savagely attack each other.Serbians Couldnt attack Croations and Bosnians and vice versa, Germans could not attack the French and vice versa as th balance of power in Europe was the Muslims.As soon as the Muslim empire fell, Europeans savagely attacked each other and took out the 100's of years of ethnic hatred that built up inside.Not once but twice...History speaks for itself.What about the first muslims (the Sahaba)? why did they suffer? were they also crooked muslims? who misunderstood the Kur'an and followed a man called Muhammed? I also want a proper answer to that.

"There are those who follow the corrupt laws of Hadith unwittingly, i for one used to follow some of the false practices because i didn't know better, and i believe God forgives those who sin out of ignorance. But when God sends you a reminder, your responsbility begins, as for you i hold you responsible to verify the miracle and make a decision regarding it, you either reject a messenger and a message from God and end up in hell or embrace the message and follow the guidance, you are responsible now infront of God, there is no escape from Him, you have recieved the reminder and you have to give God a response"

All i can say is it can only be a person who is totally confused who would call a muslim to denounce verses from the Kur'an in the name of inviting him to islam...

And i invite you in fromt of Allah Most gracious most merciful to accpet the 2 verses from the Kur'an which ye denounce, therefore denouncing what is from Allah.

The 19 miracle is indeed a miracle...
A miracle which you people got to carried away with as far as making changes to the Scripture.

Who do you think you are??

I will not be replying to this topic any longer as ive had enough of it through other forums...
Le Kum dinukum waliyediiyn

Ahmad
03-22-2005, 05:35 AM
landownunder: "Your answers are to vivid and need more and proper clarification."

Check my introduction to the miracle, www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html


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landownunder: "Do you think Abu Hanifa, Imam Shaafi, Imam Ghazali, Imam Rabbani, Muhyiddin Al Arabi,Imam Yusuf, Imam Buhari, Imam Ahmed Hanbel, Rumi, and many many others i can name were all crooked?"

Most of these people have instituted laws besides God's under the guise of explaining Quran, as if God forgot to tell us something in the book!. Now the disaster prevailing in the muslim world is that instead of following Quran alone, they have divided themselves to sects, some sects follow the Sunni collection of "man-made" Hadith, some others follow the Shiite collection of the "man-made" Hadith books. Others have further divided the "one religion" into 4 "Mazhabs, schools of jurisdiction", each school is following one of these prominent scholars you mentioned!

Are these respected scholars infallible, to be followed for centuries after their death? are the muslims not satisfied with God's words alone? why have they abandoned Quran en masse, and instead of trying to understand and use it, they just memorize it!

[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

[9:31] They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

A few of those people you mentioned might have been righteous though, only God knows their destiny. However there is no excuse for following other detailed laws than what we is found in Quran, for it means following another god besides God.

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landownunder: "What kind of ignorance and vanity is this that you reject everything that was islam for 1400 years.Did the muslims of the past 1400 years die on rejection? I want a proper answer."

The knowledge of their destiny is with God. The righteous among them who believed in God alone, didn't exalt Muhammad, didn't follow except Quran, those who believed in their responsbility and accountability infront of God (belief in the hereafter) are definetly in Heaven. But they are not the majority, since the majority to this day follow a man-made religion instead of "Submission, the creed of Abraham.

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landownunder: "There is a difference between printing errors and and the removal of two full verses."

The mathematical composition proves without doubt that the two verses doesn't belong to the book, i refer you to this article written by Rashad Khalifa (N.B: I am not affiliated with the website though),Tampering with the word of God (http://www.submission.org/tampering.html).

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landownunder: "people who memorise the Kur'an, and you will find that they will all recite the very same recitations no matter what nationality they are."

It doesn't matter if a million people memorized a book by heart, since 19 years after Muhammad's death the book was injected with the two false verses, thus it is from the very beginning contaminated with these two false verses intended to exalt Muhammad and make him an idol besides God.

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landownunder: "Also The Kur'an which was recited by Hz Osman May Allah be pleased with him still stands in it's original form in the Topkapi Museum Istanbul.If you have doubt , go check for yourself."

All i know is that the oldest full copy of Quran is from the ninth century long after Muhammad died.

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landownunder: "Muhammad Peace be upon him was the last messenger."

First don't say "peace be upon him" because it is an innovation intended to exalt and commemorate Muhammad besides God. Nowhere in Quran did God say that Muhammad is the last "messenger", please read carefully,

[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.

God would have said "the final messenger" but He didn't, because a prophet delivers a book of prophecy, as for a messenger, he just uses the available scripture to deliver further instructions and wisdom. Note that there is a clear distinction between a mere messenger and a messenger prophet in Quran, for example reflect on the following verse,

[3:79] Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.

Many other verses mention the scripture along with prophethood, not with messengership.

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landownunder: "Rashad Khalifa is not a messenger.Messengers have miracles, what miracle has Rashad Khalifa Shown? Oh and dont say he found the 19 equation because the 19 equation was something first stumbled upon by a Bahaain Monk, who also claimed to be a messenger."

Yes his miracle was the discover of the 19 code in teh scripture and the universe, could you tell us who is this Bahaain Monk who discovered 19 in Quran?

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landownunder: "The 19 equation is the Miracle of Kur'an, and by stumbling up on it, or finding it does not make you a prophet."

It doesn't make you a prophet but makes you a messenger, have any other "great" scholar discovered it in Quran during the 1400 years before Rashad? have any of them wondered why the basmala, the opening statment of the 114 chapters (In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful) is 19 letters (amazingly it's 19x2 letters in english!), have any one of them wondered what are the mysterious, meaningless letters preceding the 29 chapters (e.g: ALM), have any of them questioned ahy the quran is 114 chapters (19x6) ? apparently God preserves His miracles for his messengers to prove their message.


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landownunder: "After all the Kur'an is a book that shouldnt be simple as it was sent to mathematicians, and geniuses???"

The miracle is so vast, it ranges from simple facts that can be appreciated by almost everyone, to little complicated facts that can also be appreciated by some, each according to his understanding, however only the sincere would appreciate such an intricate miracle, it was resevred for the age of the computer, when the people are knowledgeable enough of numbers to understand it. The above two facts i stated (the number of chapters, the basmala) don't need a mathematician to be appreciated or do they?

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landownunder: "Te Muslim world has been suffering the past 100 years.Not because of its ignorance but because of the Games played upon it by the dark satanic forces."

There are no coindcidences in this world, and if they were in a state of misery, it's because they followed Satan. God has promised the believers with Victory, where is it in the muslim world?. Satan has no control, everything is running according to God's master plan, and the master plan promises victory for the believers in God alone, the muslims however believe in God+ Muhammad, or could you tell me, why they make the pilgrimage to God's shrine in Mecca + Muhammad's shrine in Medina?

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landownunder: "What about the first muslims (the Sahaba)? why did they suffer? were they also crooked muslims? who misunderstood the Kur'an and followed a man called Muhammed? I also want a proper answer to that."

Muhammad and his followers (Sahaba) were eventually granted Victory when they steadfastly persevered, purified themselves of fear and went back to Mecca as victors without spilling a drop of blood (the Meccans by then were afraid of their might so they surrendered). Thus they tasted the victory in their lifetime, since then no muslim group has ever tatsed real victory, why? because of the developement of the Hadith man-made books and distorting the religion.

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landownunder: "All i can say is it can only be a person who is totally confused who would call a muslim to denounce verses from the Kur'an in the name of inviting him to islam"

I have a physical incontrovertible proof that anybody can verify, where is your proof for your claims?. God indeed preserved His book by means of this miracle that was hidden for 1400 years and then rose to purify the book as per God's promise. Nowhere in Quran does the word "Merciful" refer to other than God, why in the false verses it refers to Muhammad? or is the idol-worshipers trying to exalt their idol.

landownunder
03-22-2005, 09:59 PM
Ahmad:

" since 19 years after Muhammad's death the book was injected with the two false verses, thus it is from the very beginning contaminated with these two false verses intended to exalt Muhammad and make him an idol besides God."

In the religion of 19 which you beleive in, God couldnt protect his book and let people inject the book with 2 verses.After Allah SubhanaTeala said that he would protect his book.SO therefore according to you God couldnt protect the book for 1400 years until Reshad.That would make the God that you beleive in a God who couldnt protect his book after saying that he would...
He let muslims read a false Kur'an for 1400 years. Al Kur'an therefore according to you was re discovered by your Reshad..

That is by far your biggest mistake..

But according to My beleif Islam, Allah Allmighty did what he said "He protected his book from day 1"

Now which God is a more powerfull God?
The one that couldnt protect his book from false verses or the one that didnt see or couldnt stop mankind from injecting two false verses??

Your argument therefore will lead people to beleive te power of the God you beleive is a limited one, a god who couldnt keep his word..

Nay..... Nay .... Nay

You have the Christian mentality running through your veins.. Allthough you seem like you are a big threat to christianity you are of great service to it...

Allah is Allmighty and Allknowing..

Ahmad
03-23-2005, 05:15 AM
What can i say!

Apparently you chose to disregard God's sign, if you are really sincere you would have at least verified and debated the message of 19, instead of beating around the bush. Have you debated the message of rashad? have you told us why you follow man-made books instead of God's words in Quran? what makes you any better than the followers of the Talmud.

God indeed preserved His Quran for the sincere by means of a built in security system (19) that you failed to appreciate or see!

For 1400 years the two false verses were a test, now they are a bigger test, or did you expect to enter Paraide without being tested!

I have simply submitted myself to God, i believe in His sign and message, God doesn't love the disbelievers.

landownunder
03-23-2005, 05:51 PM
Thats Right Ahmad,

Your vane thoughts will never go further and you can keep jumping and ignoring the questions which need to be answered.Just keep on repeating yourself...

Obviously you havent read well enough.
Ive never said i rejected the the miracle of the 19..WIth exeptions offcourse.

I do reject the dirty hands trying to take out verses from my book.
Again read carefully, this is the punch line.
If i did accept the 2 verses in the Quran were false then i would have to beleive that Allah could not keep his word of protecting the Kur'an.. This in no way can i accept.If Allah did not will for the 2 verses to be there it wouldnt have been.
Wake up Ahmed..youve become a transgressor and a fanatic..the knowledge you have aquired has vanatised you so far that you reject your very foundations.

Allah subhana we teala is most mercifull, Hazrat Muhammad Sallallahu Aleyhiwe sallam is the prophet and servant of Allah.

My Allah guide us all to the right path.

Ahmad
03-24-2005, 04:50 AM
I seek refuge in God from Satan, the rejected
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[6:104] Enlightenments have come to you from your Lord. As for those who can see, they do so for their own good, and those who turn blind, do so to their own detriment. I am not your guardian.