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this
02-25-2005, 11:31 PM
A few weeks ago ago Henry reported on the Disclosure Project on ET's. Many people wrote back, and I think someone provided this link:

http://www.truthcampaign.ukf.net/mainpages/articles.html

If you check out the 'ET agenda' article you might find stuff you don't like about religion but you will find a pretty thorough effort at debunking the Sitchin Ancient Astronaut thesis, Planet X, and ET's bringing in a new religion. The Disclosure Project is mentioned in passing, a huge article.

this
04-02-2005, 03:28 PM
Here's an important article from William Cooper:
http://www.hourofthetime.com/majestyt.htm

maybe it's on this site somewhere else, if not it should be. His article incorporates many observations of conspiracy theory from ufo's to communism, masons, Art Bell, NASA, FBI, terrorism, Golitsyn etc. Perhaps Cooper is mistaken about the physical landing of the Apollo missions, but his thesis on UFOs seems sound. He knew that much of the UFO community was CIA disinfo, although he didn't make the connection between high level gov't "admission" of the existence of ETs and future mind control agendas.

http://www.hourofthetime.com/ufo.htm

Draken
04-03-2005, 03:27 AM
This is a very good, essential site with masses of good articles and links. I haven't read anything there for years but I think the Majesty 12 article and a few others are absolutely vital, in my opinion.

Good job, this, to bring William Cooper up. He was shot to death by a local sheriff on his own land in I think November 2001(!) for refusing to pay income tax.

BTW, the links and articles on the IRS and their illegal income tax are extremely important!

<a href="http://www.hourofthetime.com/internalnew.htm">Internal Revenue Service</a>


"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects something it cannot be." Thomas Jefferson

"The power of the United States to tax is limited to persons, property, and business within their jurisdiction, as much as that of a state is limited to the same subjects within its jurisdiction." - United States Supreme Court Justice Fields

this
04-03-2005, 05:31 PM
I just want to edit my post about Cooper. :oops:

"He knew that much of the UFO community was CIA disinfo, although he didn't make the connection between high level gov't "admission" of the existence of ETs and future mind control agendas"

(till well after he retired from the Navy)

nomad
04-03-2005, 06:30 PM
If you would all study Tesla and what he spoke

about and what he accomplished you would all see

very clearly that UFOs are just a government

distraction to prevent people from understanding

that free energy and anti-gravity are merely

scientific facts on not a monopoly of green

men from other worlds ... free energy to the

masses is as normal as everyone having

free air to breath and water to drink ..." oh

ye of little faith "

truebeliever
04-04-2005, 04:55 AM
I agree NOMAD. Read "The Hunt For Zero Point" by Nick Cook. It cant be denied that he could be an intelligence asset as he's an aircraft editor from Janes defnce Weekly. But...i believe he gives a good read on the origens of UFO sightings as cover for high tech weaponry and anti-gravity devices.

There is 3 trillion dollars missing from the American taxpayers purse. Me thinks i know where alot of it may have ended up.

It amazes me that people are so willing to believe in UFO's and little green men. I cant say that they dont exist, i would just caution people to look to a more Earthly explanation.

Why do we automatically assume there is another civilization far ahead of ours? Why ar'nt we the most advanced? This fantasy is one of a child, desperately waiting for a grownup to take all their worries away...perhaps also, it's a replacement for God?

As far as we know we are the most advanced and ONLY civilization in the Universe. Not a single radio signal has EVER been found originating from the depths of space.

Perhaps this will prove to be wrong. But until then, i hope we learn to respect the miracle of God's creation as the only one in the universe so far.

nomad
04-04-2005, 06:11 AM
truebeliever wrote:
I agree NOMAD. Read "The Hunt For Zero Point" by Nick Cook. It cant be denied that he could be an intelligence asset as he's an aircraft editor from Janes defnce Weekly. But...i believe he gives a good read on the origens of UFO sightings as cover for high tech weaponry and anti-gravity devices.

There is 3 trillion dollars missing from the American taxpayers purse. Me thinks i know where alot of it may have ended up.

It amazes me that people are so willing to believe in UFO's and little green men. I cant say that they dont exist, i would just caution people to look to a more Earthly explanation.

Why do we automatically assume there is another civilization far ahead of ours? Why ar'nt we the most advanced? This fantasy is one of a child, desperately waiting for a grownup to take all their worries away...perhaps also, it's a replacement for God?

As far as we know we are the most advanced and ONLY civilization in the Universe. Not a single radio signal has EVER been found originating from the depths of space.

Perhaps this will prove to be wrong. But until then, i hope we learn to respect the miracle of God's creation as the only one in the universe so far.

Aliens and reverse engineering technolology is

a perfect substitute for God ... it rationlizes

how perfect things just happen to be on Earth to

those of little faith.

nakedsnake
04-17-2005, 03:57 PM
Lights in the sky and little green men-speculations about them may always persist. But solid answers to questions about them do exist. Considering the issues in relationship to physical science, theology, philosophy, psychology, sociology, and political science can help solve the mysteries.
Ever since the beggining of the "Flying Saucer age" in 1947, and even well before that, people have observed what appear to be mysterious aerial visitors. The nature of these phenomena makes them difficult, but not impossible to study. Investigators have developed classification systems to help them in shifting through the multitude of UFO reports. researchers are able to offer standard explanations for most of the sightings-the UFOs are hoaxes or fireballs or the planet Venus or the lights of an aircraft, for example.But a small percentage of UFOs remains unexplained after all the natural explanations have been exausted...where would extaterrestial intelligence come from?...The extradimensional hypothesis holds promise...The space-time theorems show that supernature must exist, because nature was plainly originated by something beyond itself. Therefore, a scientifically credible possibility exits that RUFOs (RUFOs are physical visitors from outer space) come from beyond the four familiar dimensions of the universe. If one takes the extradimensional hypothesis to mean that entities could come into the universe from a spiritual realm, one can see a remarkable correspondence between science and scripture. The Bible describes a Creator who is beyond matter, energy, and the space-time dimensions of the universe. It also describes spirit beings who are able to enter the universe and exibit physical effects. A closer examination of RUFOs shows that they are consistent with the Bible's descriptions of Demons. The RUFOs appear to be alive and to be acting in an intelligent way with malevolent intentions...the connection with the occult is plain to see in the case of those who have the closest encounters with UFOs: abductees and contactees. Abductees are people who tell astory of being captured by aliens and taken aboard spacecraft for examination. Contactees are people who claim to be used by aliens as channels of information. Thse reported experiences are completely in line with such occult practices as trance channeling of "ascended Masters"...The truth about UFOs can be known. Indeed the UFO mystery is a mystery solved. Earth is not being visited by aliens from another planet, but some people are being visited by spirit beings who want everyone to think they are aliens from another planet.

From Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men
by Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples, and Mark Clarck


This view is consistent with the NWO agenda as the New Agers are awaiting their ascended master to unite the world in peace see this link

http://conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/New_World_Order.htm

truebeliever
04-17-2005, 11:26 PM
Will have a look at the link in a tick NS.

I disagree that these are 'spirits'.

The human mind is a powerful thing.

In my youth I was assailed by nightmares and visions. I call spirits psychological projections. Still terrifying.

I once went overboard in my youth on amphetamines. I experienced a psychosis but was just able to keep my feet on the ground...barely.

The auditory and visual hallucinations were astoundingly real. I had to constantly ask friends..."is that person really there"?

The mind is a powerful thing.

I urge ANYONE to read Nick Cooks "The Hunt For Zero Point" before making to much of what are essentially...unidentified flying objects...or high tech airforce toys.

nomad
04-17-2005, 11:36 PM
I have to agree with Truebeliever and lets

keep in mind spirits don't photograph very

well so it wouldn't explain the physical

evidence.

get_real
04-18-2005, 06:22 AM
Has anyone had the experience of seeing an unidentified object, whereas they were able to see that it definitely was not a plane or helicopter, or weather baloon.

Around 1969-1972 in our hometown in New Jersey, we (my family and I) had just come out to enjoy the evening and looked up to see a huge circular object.

It was very slow (to our eyes), and truly was the makings of the type of ufo you see in movies.

We never asked the neighbors or town officials as to what that might have been.

But it left us all with a feeling. A feeling of smallness in some way--hard to define exactly.

But in discussion amongst ourselves, we agreed that even if it were our own government, it is truly ahead in technology more than it speaks of.

truebeliever
04-18-2005, 07:03 AM
Read Nick Cooks "The Hunt For Zero Point".

The technology exists and has done for along time.

In interviews with Albert Speer (Hitlers armaments Minister) he admitted the biggest mistake Germany made was persuing "Revenge" weapons like the V1 and V2 instead of persuing their "infra red" giuded missile technology.

Speer stated they had the capability of producing infra red guided missiles, capable of hitting high flying B-17's and Lancasters, by late 1943.

Germany has fuel injected fighter aircraft in early 1930's and jet aircraft in 1939...all left unpersued until it was too late.

The 'Panther' medium tank in early 1945 had infra red sights and an auto stabiliser, main gun system which was unmatched by anyone until the early-mid 60's.

When germany put a total effort into it's technology it was unmatched.

Through operation 'paperclip', bringing Germany's best and brightest into the U.S after the war, the U.S airforce undoubtably had access to the best of Germany's high tech...probably including 'anti gravity.

Nick Cook at the beginning of his book describes the bright orbs of light that persued Allied bombers late in the war. Perfectly matching the descriptions given by many today.

I have heard reports that Australia's 'outback' has been earmarked for new U.S high tech weapons and aircraft bases. Cant wait for the light show.

It would take little for a government agency to 'mock up' a fake space ship. Given the extent of their deceit, i beleive it's a natural extension of their program of distraction and refocussing peoples attention...away from the things that matter.

I'm fully prepared for the coming Hollywood "Alien Landing" production.

Hollywood is already preparing the ground with it's latest rash of releases. Perhaps in a year or two.

Draken
04-18-2005, 12:37 PM
Hey true, have you seen and read these articles?

Here's an excerpt from <a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_battle_for_aum_shinrikyko.htm">THE BATTLE FOR AUM SHINRIKYO By David Guyatt</a>:

"By the early nineties Aum had developed powerful nuclear bombs and were undertaking a "crash" programme to build an earthquake weapon, according to former Senate investigator, Dan Gerber, in a telephone call to Australian Geophysicist Harry Mason.

Mason has been investigating a series of peculiar seismic "events" and other strange phenomena in the vast open spaces of Western Australia. These include 173 tremors registering 3-0 on the Richter scale, the majority of which occurred in the space of just 10 months. Significantly, Mason found that the epi-centres of these quakes were spaced at 10 kilometre intervals. Clearly, they are not of natural origin. Mason’s interest in the Aum cult followed his discovery of a large unexplained earthquake featuring strange aerial phenomena. This quake, registering 3.7 on the Richter scale took place on 28 May 1993 close to Banjawarn sheep station. Amazingly, Aum Shinrikyo commenced negotiations to purchase the sheep station three days before the earthquake. More importantly, Kiyode Hayakawa, Aum’s arms dealer set about conducting sophisticated electromagnetic testing in the vicinity of Banjawarn just prior to authorisising the purchase. These included inserting electric probes into the ground and then feeding the accumulated data into a laptop computer."

Here's a couple of articles by the same author on similar subjects:

<a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/doom_weapons_1.htm">TESLA DOOM WEAPONS & AUM SHINRIKYO</a>

<a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/future_war.htm">FUTURE WAR - FUTURE WEAPONS</a>

<a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/killing_me_softly.htm">KILLING ME SOFTLY</a>

<a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/non_lethal_death.htm">NON LETHAL DEATH</a>

And so Harry Mason's research courtesy of <a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.html">NEXUS MAGAZINE</a>:

<a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/bskies1.html">BRIGHT SKIES
Top-Secret Weapons Testing?
Part 1</a> (links to parts 2-5 in part 1)
Strange fireball events have been witnessed in many remote parts of Australia recently. With the meteor theory ruled out, could these moving plasmoids be part of some military secret-weapons program, or even the work of UFOs?

nomad
04-18-2005, 12:50 PM
Draken ... Nikola Tesla was the greatest scientist

of our times ... his ideas are STILL 100 years

ahead of his time. He is the father of the

modern age. Having electrified the planet was

the least of accomplishments. His greatest

discoveries are the solutions to man's greatest

problems.

Quotes from one of your links above.

--------------------------------------
Alarmed at the weapons activities of Aum Shinrikyo, the US Senate conducted an investigation into the cult. Their report published in October 1995 outlined Aum’s intense interest in the work of Nikola Tesla. At the turn of this century, Tesla had conducted numerous experiments in the realm of advanced electromagnetic weapon systems. In 1896, he accidentally triggered an earthquake across a dozen New York city blocks. Such was the turmoil caused that local police stormed his lab. Realising what had occurred, the inventor hurriedly took a sledge hammer and smashed an offending oscillator to pieces. Later he remarked that the quake was caused "by a little piece of apparatus you could slip into your pocket."

The Senate report describes how representatives of Aum visited the New York based International Tesla Society (ITS) seeking access to Tesla’s research papers. However, these had been confiscated by the US government in 1943 - the year Tesla died - and classified secret. They remain secret to this day. A spokesman for ITS told Senate investigators that Aum’s interest focused on Tesla’s experiments on "resonating frequencies" in connection with the artificial creation of earthquakes. Remarkably, the Senate report goes on to mention Tesla’s claim that he could "split the world in two." This mind-boggling assertion is believed to have been reflected in the warning given by Russian Premier Nikita Krushchev in 1960. Krushchev referred to "… the advent of a new class of Soviet Superweapon, so powerful it could wipe out all life on earth." The comment, made at the height of the cold war, clearly did not refer to nuclear weapons - already an integral component of the feared Soviet arsenal.
------------------------------------------

this
04-18-2005, 04:09 PM
>the Senate report goes on to mention Tesla’s claim that he could "split the world in two."


with respect to your hero, Nomad, that's not much of an accomplishment. Scientists frequently find themselves ignorant of other humans' evil applications of basic science discoveries. The tenet that all pure science should be researched without regard to the consequence is infinitely naive. Discovering all answers to the universe is not much use if the human earth system to which it is applied creates monsters and nightmares.

nomad
04-18-2005, 08:50 PM
unfortunately all advancement can be used

for evil ... I still think that AC electricity

is a blessing to the world.

truebeliever
04-18-2005, 11:00 PM
Thanks Drak...will read...BOOOOO WORKKKKK...

THIS...Tesla was'nt just a great scientist...he was also a great humanitarian who only wanted his work used for the good of mankind.

It's interesting to note that Tesla was researching bouncing radio waves off the ionosphere at different frequencies...at the same time the Tungusta event happened. I read he was so concerned he ripped down all his apparatus and destroyed the work.

There is so much to Tesla. Alot of his work is still classified. He was found dead in his hotel in New York in 1943. He was on his way to meet Rooseveltd to discuss technology he believed would end the war...or so the story goes.

The fact that so few people have heard of him speaks for itself.

His life is so interesting it would make a fantastic movie...big budget...wait and see.

Just as an add on...i just remembered...In the Oz outback is a 'special' over the horizen RADAR called "Jindalee" built in the late 70's. Bounced RADAR off the ionosphere. It was regarded as a flop...and yet it still operates to this day...hmmmmm...looks awfully like the HAAP set up in Alaska.

Will post a bit more on it with some pics.

nomad
04-18-2005, 11:05 PM
Regarding Tesla, look what's hot in technology

today WIRELESS. Tesla's is the father of wireless.

No idea in my mind is better than wireless

ELECTRICITY to power EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE.

Tesla invented the radio we know of today.

BUT his idea of radio was to send the content

for the radio AND the electricity to power

it all wirelessly AND he proved it CAN be done.

What has Einstein done for you lately ?

truebeliever
04-18-2005, 11:15 PM
If TESLA gets fans it's because once you read about him you understand what a personality he was. Totally dedicated to truth and scientific discovery but also concerned about people as well.

Scientists like Marconi begged to see him work in his laboratory and basically stole alot of his work...though Tesla did'nt seem to care.

Absoloutly NO ego with him but terribly nieve.

I'm with you NOMAD...one of my hero's.

nomad
04-19-2005, 12:17 AM
truebeliever wrote:
If TESLA gets fans it's because once you read about him you understand what a personality he was. Totally dedicated to truth and scientific discovery but also concerned about people as well.

Scientists like Marconi begged to see him work in his laboratory and basically stole alot of his work...though Tesla did'nt seem to care.

Absoloutly NO ego with him but terribly nieve.

I'm with you NOMAD...one of my hero's.


As a Jew, Tesla for me exposed the lie of

Jewish superiority we are led to believe

in all our Jewish media. Here was a greater

humanitarian than maybe 1/2 the Catholic

cardinals and a genius that few can match

all embodied in one person.

truebeliever
04-19-2005, 01:09 AM
Just one further note...i read some of the links Drak.

Tesla death ray?

Germany's top secret weapons division was claiming they were close to perfecting a "laser" type weapon capable of knocking aircraft out of the sky.

There are several anomalies to WW2...actually ALL of WW2 is an anomaly. I hope I live long enough to read the authentic history...but i digress...

The "broad front" strategy promulgated by the top U.S and British staff... Patton and even Montgomery were dead against it and considered it ridiculous but on went Eisenhower with it.

Patton wanted narrow deep thrusts as the Germans had proven so effective. Effectively giving the Soviets vast tracks of land and also handing Berlin on a platter though most agreed, Germans would have given up hand over fist to the Allies had they been allowed to race for it....BUT...allowing for this meant the Allies could focuss on the many production facilities in the Ruhr and also on many of the top secret weapons facilities in the South.

It was considered ludicrous by many that Eisenhower gave serious consideration to the possibility of "Wolf Packs" forming a redoubt in the hills in the south of Germany...however, maybe thats where the Allies wanted to go.

The German high command was so full of traitors to Hitler and indeed Germany I dont even believe the stories of "Ultra" intercepts - "Enigma".

Though it existed, to say they could decode on the SAME DAY was ridiculous...i believe it's a cover for the many spies (including Georing!) who were feeding vast amounts of info to the Allies through an agent called "Lucy" connected to Switzerland and Allen Dulles.

This probably included vast amounts of info on secret weapons.
---------------------------------------------------
On the subject of Western Australia and the Japanese cult.

Meanwhile, Geologist, Harry Mason, was gathering information that made him pause for thought. Intriguingly, just a few kilometres from Banjawarn, is a military facility located at Laverton.

I used to work outside Laverton/Leonora on "Granny Smith" and "Mt Morgans" gold mine. I dont recall ever of hearing of a military facility nearby? Not to say there is'nt...i left in 1990.

In addition there have been other unexplained “fireball” events - notably a 1st May 1995 explosion above Perth, estimated to have been in excess of 1 megaton of TNT energy equivalence.

I live in Perth...cant say I recall any 1mt explosions though I may have been very drunk at the time and possibly indisposed...ahhh...she said the Earth moved... 8-)

That being said...
http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/doom_weapons_1.htm
What he says I GENERALLY agree with. Watch Oz in the next few years.

I've also heard a B2 wing will be stationed here.

My intuition tells me Australia will be the 'new' NWO headquaters for some time to come.

Their plan probably calls for a quick population reduction, benvolent police state crackdowns all over, with "Barrons" controlling various regions...all answering to the new King based in Oz...yes, my prediction.

After the lock down is complete and the remaining peasants under control, they will reach out into the solar system to colonise the various nearby planets using highly advanced technology nicely locked away in Rothschilds garage.

New space launch facilities are on the way in Oz..probably based in the North of Queensland.

At the end of the day, to control the world you must have control of the resources that you make things with. Shuffling money back and forth does not count and the NWO stooges in London must keep a firm grip on Johnny Howard and Australia in general.

Although i claim there is NO NWO split i am willing to concede their is pretty strong anecdotal evidence for this...no less the BIG metal traders out of Switzerland fighting tooth and nail for access to Oz yellowcake over British and Oz interests.
---------------------------------------------------
I just rang the Perth Observatory regarding that authors claims about a 1mt (estimated) fiery ball of light over Perth.

Peter Birch told me he was woken by the event and it was very loud.

It passed South/North over Perth and broke up over Toojay (a small town to the north of Perth).

There were 300 calls by people in one day to the observatory...strangely none from the East of the event...possibly due to clouds?

People with a great vantage point (Kings Park-popular night spot at 2am ;-)) reported a fiery ball of light which is a little different from the 'streak of light' you might expect from a meteor.

When I asked Peter about reports that the object flew much slower than a meteor he was non-committal.

He stated they get reports 5-7 times a year of "satellites" of 3-4 moving in formation. He stated equivocally they were military aircraft of which we would not here about.

When I asked him to comment on 'secret' military bases that I had heard of for the last 5 years (new ones) he wrapped up the conversation pretty fast.

Perhaps he was sick of 'kooks' ringing him up? I thought I was being pretty level headed about it all. Maybe he had a bus to catch?

Apparently he and his team are working on the "Deep Impact" project whereby they are landing a probe on a comet?

He obviously loves Arthur C Clarke (who wrote about it 40 years ago)...NWO man and paedophile extraordinaire.

I think the author has taken a few liberties but even Peter Birch at the Observatory was'nt that convincing with the 'meteor' theory.

As for Nexus? They mix so much good stuff with bad i really dont like them and question there motives. Ruppert loves them and keeps in contact with them so who knows.

truebeliever
04-19-2005, 02:14 AM
I'll just repeat that...

He stated they get reports 5-7 times a year of "satellites" of 3-4 moving in formation. He stated equivocally they were military aircraft of which we would not here about.

Thats 'white lights' moving in formation.

Peter Birch.
Perth Observatory
Personal Communication-Phone
Tuesday, April 19th 2005

Draken
04-19-2005, 02:50 AM
Concerning Nazi-German science.

It's incredible the degree of difference in direction German science took when cut off (seemingly) from the West. I read somewhere that this direction would not have been possible if they kept their contact with the West, even if the isolation only lasted a few years, maybe 10-12. In this article they were speculating where we would be today if the Germans prevailed in WW2 and THEIR science would've become the standard, not the American/British one.

About NEXUS:

what articles do you find "bad" exactly?

truebeliever
04-19-2005, 03:22 AM
I've perused Nexus casually for several years and occasionally bought it.

They put some good articles with straight out kooky bullshit like alien abduction...sorry..."woo woo land".

Not just what they write but how they write...alot is completely unreferenced and I have to take their word for it.

They should state unequivocally if the information is anecdotal or otherwise to be considered along with other ideas.

If I had a magazine along Nexus lines I would divide it into 2 parts.

One for well referenced material using government documents and scientific journals (theres tons of great mainstream stuff)...have they ever covered anything as basic as the Northwoods document? Ever put a photostat of the lines saying how they conned the public...the government of the days own paperwork?

They should put the highly speculative stuff in another part and name it that...highly speculative and anecdotal...pure discussion.

There referencing is pretty crap and some of the sources not exactly mainstream.

Take the report from Oz and the fire ball? 500,000 Perth citizens awoken? Who says? Why did they even say that crap? Were they counting? Did 500,000 people ring up? Why even say it? It smacks of a Joe Vialls report...fact mixed with personal speculation based on what?

They could do alot better. If they annoy me it's because they have potential and are poisening the well when a good article...say on flouride...is put next to a alien abduction story. I cant use it.

I like the work by Nick Cook for precisely the reason of his style and referencing. If it's highly speculative he says so. He's reserved in his judgement and postulates alternative scenarios. He makes the reader think and ponder different possibilites.

There is so much bullshit easily exposed with a few references from mainstream work, I dont know why Nexus does'nt make a real attempt to 'mainstream' itself and reach a much wider audience.

Bottom line...it's targetting an audience who already believes and is pretty slack on the evidence at times.

Take the claim there's a military base in Laverton W.A...i know most of em...never, ever heard of a base in or near Laverton or Leonora for that matter.

I'll make enquiries and tell you. If i'm wrong i'll retract my statement but i'll tell you now there's to much bullshit mixed in with Nexus's work...just little bits and peices that I notice that I no longer read it.

A good test is "could you use the magazines 'other' work to discredit their good stuff" and the answer is an unequivocal yes.

Even Ruppert tries to avoid that.

I have my suspicions.

Like I said...i'm dissapointed because it has so much potential for a wider readership.

Jeremy Stribling, one of the students, said that he and two graduates were convinced that many academic conferences had few or no minimum standards because their sole purpose was to make money. “We decided to test the limits,” he said.

It apply's to Nexus as well.

Taken from THIS's post.

Draken
04-19-2005, 04:10 AM
have they ever covered anything as basic as the Northwoods document?

(excerpt from <a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/overview.html">THIS ARTICLE BY JIM MARRS IN NEXUS</a>)
WOULD AMERICANS ATTACK AMERICANS?

The WTC/Pentagon attacks provided a convenient excuse to launch the pre-laid plans for military action against Afghanistan. But were they simply allowed to happen, or were they contrived? The question becomes: "Would any American allow an attack on fellow Americans, just to further his own business or political agenda?" The answer unfortunately appears to be "Yes".

Incredibly, 40-year-old government documents, thought to have been destroyed long ago but recently made public, show the US military in the early 1960s proposed making terrorist attacks in the United States and blaming them on Fidel Castro. They are discussed in a recent book on the National Security Agency (NSA), entitled Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency, by James Bamford [see Reviews this issue of NEXUS. Ed.].

These documents were produced beginning in late 1961, following the ill-fated Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba that spring. President John F. Kennedy, angered by the inept actions of the CIA, had shifted responsibility for Cuba from that agency to the Department of Defense. Here, military strategists considered plans to create terrorist actions which would alarm the American population and stampede them into supporting a military attack on Cuba. Under consideration in Operation Northwoods were plans:

* to create "a series of well-coordinated incidents" in or around the US Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to include inciting riots and blowing up ammunition stores, aircraft and ships;
* to "develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington";
* to "sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated)...foster attempts on the lives of Cuban refugees in the United States";
* to explode bombs in carefully chosen locations and coordinate with the release of "prepared documents" pointing to Cuban complicity;
* to use fake Russian aircraft to harass civilian airliners;
* to make "hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft", even to simulating the shooting down of a civilian airliner.

Kennedy rejected Operation Northwoods and senior military officers ordered the documents destroyed. But someone slipped up and the papers were discovered by the Assassination Records Review Board and recently released by the National Archives.

On a more recent event, The New York Times (October 28, 1993) reported that an informant named Emad Salem was involved early in 1993 with Middle Eastern terrorists connected to Osama bin Laden, to develop a bomb for use against New York's World Trade Center. Salem, a former Egyptian Army officer, wanted to substitute a harmless powder for the explosive, but his plan to thwart the attack was blocked by an FBI official who apparently did not want to expose the inside informant. The attack was allowed to proceed. The February 26, 1993 explosion in the WTC resulted in six deaths, more than 1,000 casualties, and damage in excess of half a billion dollars.

We now see that creating crises to further political goals was a methodology well understood and utilised in the 20th century. Is this the game today? Let's examine the September 11 attacks.

----------------------

...and an excerpt from <a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/hiddenterror.html">THIS ARTICLE</a> by Paul David Collins:

Operation Northwoods

The first example is in 1962. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Lyman L. Lemnitzer, and his fellow JCS members wanted to remove Castro from Cuba. Exactly what interests Lemnitzer and his fellow warhawks represented are unclear. However, one thing is apparent: these military men considered Castro an impediment to be expunged by means of overt war.

According to James Bamford, former Washington investigative producer for ABC, the Joint Chiefs of Staff planned to engineer several terrorist acts to instigate war (p. 82):

According to secret and long-hidden documents obtained for Body of Secrets, the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the US government. In the name of anticommunism, they proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba.

Codenamed Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, DC, Miami and elsewhere.

People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.

Northwoods even called for the military to turn on itself (p. 84):

Among the actions recommended was "a series of well-coordinated incidents to take place in and around" the US Navy Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This included dressing "friendly" Cubans in Cuban military uniforms and then have them "start riots near the main gate of the base. Others would pretend to be saboteurs inside the base. Ammunition would be blown up, fires started, aircraft sabotaged, mortars fired at the base with damage to installations".

Operation Northwoods would draw upon history as well, using the 1898 explosion aboard the battleship Maine in Havana harbour as inspiration (p. 84):

"We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," they proposed; "casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

The attempt to create a Cuban terrorist threat makes it clear that the US government has no reservations about using state-sponsored terrorism to achieve its ends.

-----------------------

I agree sometimes there appears articles in NEXUS that aren't so well referenced. But then again we've thrashed Ruppert's Peak Oil rubbish (using among others' Vialls articles!:lol:) but are in agreement his work on global drug dealing by the CIA is genuine and correct.

My point being sure, there might be crap info, maybe even disinfo in NEXUS from time to time, especially in connection to alien abduction issues, but that doesn't mean the Manhattan Project is bogus, and they write about BOTH.

As an aside, I read a few years ago that the UFO research community are WELL aware of the agent provocateurs and disinfo and undercover agents sent out by the military/industrial complex to discredit their work. The genuine researchers can't do anything about it and actually don't want these agents alarmed, for fear of losing track of them or getting them replaced by new ones they don't know and can keep tracks on.

But yes, in conclusion, I agree it's a shame NEXUS let these articles slip through their fingers. But then again, we ALWAYS have to be vigilant and not let our guard down and use OUR common sense and not trust THEIRS.

Truth, Beauty, Love mi dear!

truebeliever
04-19-2005, 05:11 AM
My point was Drak they should stick to stuff just like that...Northwoods stuff and leave the other shit alone.

As for Vialls...i've always urged the reader to take care with him.

I have no such reservations with Dave McGowan.

There are dozens of times when Nexus has really guilded the lilly and I dont like it...that stuff with West Oz is bogus mixed in with reasonable stuff.

Aboriginal prospectors? End of the world? Does he have them on tape? If this guy is a researcher he should record interviews with witnesses. He could say whatever he wants...are you off to find the "two aboriginal prospectors" in the wilds of the Oz outback?

We get enough bullshit from the mainstream without more bullshit from a magazine which has a wide readership and makes money from it.

Perhaps Nexus is just on the recieving end of my current disapointment with the lack of a credible, non-partisan, truth seeking paper or magazine that does'nt turn out to be a front for the Republican Party or a NWO stooge.

But yes...I'd still rather have Nexus than not.

One more example of how easy it is to bullshit...Joe Vialls claimed that "aireal spraying" took place in W.A not to long ago with fibres released...and then he and others were hit by a 'deadly' flu that had him and others near death.

Well, having worked in Emergency Departments I rang a few friends..."any major deeadly flu epidemics lately?"...N-O-P-E,,,dead as a door nail...VERY mild season...but according to Joe it was on for young and old.

Such a SILLY little lie...why? Whats the point? To make a point? We need to clean up and stop quoting these people or at least voice our reservations.

Perhaps I'm simply voicing what i'd like to start doing myself.

I'd like to hone my amature research down a little.

Draken
04-19-2005, 07:10 AM
Hey true, why don't you contact the editor Duncan Roads? He's Aussie. Ask him why he sometimes publishes dubious material.

NEXUS MAGAZINE (Head Office)
PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia
phone: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; or fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381; email: editor@nexusmagazine.com

I would surely be VERY interested in an explanation!!!

Same goes for Vialls. I wonder: was he REALLY deadly ill? As far as I'm concerned, I can't verify either way. I can only take his word for it. All his research that I find genuine is the basis for my assessment of all the stuff I find wierd or inaccurate. If I read something of his that sounds like a plausible explanation, then that is MY judgement of HIS theories on the subject. If I could do my own research I would not have to rely on OTHER people's research.

Check him out, true, seriously. I can't, you can!

truebeliever
04-19-2005, 07:28 AM
Yeh, but that involves effort and i'd just rather cut and paste 8-)

Besides, Joe might mistake me for a Mossad Hit Team and hose me down with his lawn sprinkler.

Draken
04-19-2005, 07:51 AM
Yeah, but wouldn't that be quite enjoyable, it being so unbearably hot and sweaty down there in Aussieland? 8-)

Draken
05-01-2005, 02:41 PM
Who to believe?!?

Check this out, true!

I've read most of Gardner's books and my conclusion is indecisive. I can't tell whether he's NWO or not. I have a gut feeling he's not honest.
He champions <a href="http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/fantasy/stuart.htm">"Prince" Michael of Albany</a> of the Stewarts as the rightful heir to the British throne but he seems to be a fraud, having made his title up and the story to go along with it.

Gardner also is the most convincing person to advocate the Jesus/Mary Magdalene secret bloodline. Icke says he mixes a lot of fact with a lot of fiction to twist the story in Prince Michael's and his own favour.

Now, David Icke also claims to have spoken to people who in their turn claim to have SEEN Gardner SHAPE-SHIFT at blood rituals involving infants!!!

Is this a ruse to discredit Gardner and his claims of the Jesus/Mary Magdalene bloodline or does it actually play into the hands of Gardner?

I'm a bit confused, to be honest!

Check out this article by Icke and the exchange between Icke and NEXUS editor Duncan Roads.

I don't know WHAT to think now - Icke's reptilian theory or the highly convincing but suspicious Gardner and the dodgy intentions of Roads!

Should we not give Icke credit for challenging the bias of NEXUS and Duncan Roads, in spite of his shape-shifting reptilian theory? Or might there be SOME grain of truth in that totally crazy-sounding theory? Or have I got disinfo overload?

-----------------------------
-----------------------------


<a href="http://educate-yourself.org/cn/laurencegardnershapeshifter.shtml">Sir Laurence Gardner, Reptilian Shape-Shifter?

by David Icke</a>
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/laurencegardnershapeshifter.shtml

IS THIS TRUE, SIR LAURENCE?
New claims that Sir Laurence Gardner is a shape-shifter who takes part in human sacrifice rituals.

Major revelations about the reptilian presence on this planet.

by DAVID ICKE

Many people were understandably shocked and skeptical when Arizona Wilder claimed in the video, Revelations of a Mother Goddess, that Sir Laurence Gardner, the author and head of the ancient Royal Court of the Dragon Sovereignty, was a shape-shifting reptilian who took part in Satanic human sacrifice rituals she had witnessed.

Nexus Magazine, and its publisher, Duncan Roads, have been particularly scathing of these claims. Hardly surprising, when Sir Laurence Gardner has been massively promoted by Roads and his magazine.

But now the author and lecturer, Stewart Swerdlow, says that he also witnessed human sacrifice and blood drinking rituals at the Montauk mind control centre on Long Island, New York, in which Sir Laurence Gardner played a major role.

Swerdlow is the author of five books, The Montauk Project: The Alien Connection; The Healers Handbook; As You Sow, So You Shall Reap; Healing of the Mind; and The White Owl Legend. He says he was a victim of the now extensively documented mind control operation at Montauk Point from the age of 14 in the early seventies. He was one of the so-called "Montauk Boys".

He has never named names before, but has now chosen to talk to me about his experience of Sir Laurence, who has gained fame in recent years on the New Age and Holy Grail "circuit" for his books claiming that the Merovingian bloodline is the bloodline of Jesus. His best known works are Bloodlines of the Holy Grail and the Genesis of the Grail Kings: The Explosive Story of Genetic Cloning and the Ancient Bloodline of Jesus.

I have most strongly contended in my own books and talks that this claim about the bloodline of "Jesus" is a diversion from the fact that the "Holy Grail" or Merovingian bloodline is a key reptilian bloodline from which vast numbers of people in royal, political, economic, religious, and military power today, genetically descend. It is the desire to maintain this reptilian genetic structure which has led to the obsessive interbreeding for aeons to the present day of the "elite" families.

Sir Laurence himself calls these "Holy Grail" bloodlines the "dragon" bloodlines, but claims that this term derives from the use of crocodile fat in the royal ceremonies of ancient Egypt. I would contend that the word "dragon" has a much more fundamental meaning than that. These bloodlines, which have invariably ended up in the positions of power since pre-history, have a much more dominant reptilian genetic code which has resulted from interbreeding thousands of years ago between a reptilian race (the "Serpent" race of endless legend) and the mammal-dominated bloodlines which we call "human".

Sir Laurence claims that the dragon bloodline, which he connects to the House of Stewart, has the right to the British throne and indeed that these bloodlines have the right to rule in general. According to him the senior legitimate descendant in this line is HRH Prince Michael Stewart, Count of Albany, although the background to this guy is being increasingly questioned and there are claims that he has invented the title.

Sir Laurence also talks in positive terms about the drinking of menstrual blood, or "Starfire", which, interestingly, was the Illuminati code name of Arizona Wilder, the "Mother Goddess" who conducted sacrificial rituals for the Illuminati in a mind-controlled state (See Revelations of a Mother Goddess and The Biggest Secret). You can read at length what Sir Laurence is claiming on this link:
(Starfire Article: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfirec.html)

In my view it is classic disinformation or what I call gin and tonic with a twist. A great deal of truth, spun with the idea that these dragon bloodlines are not literally reptilian and are, instead, the genetic stream of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. In an article in Nexus Magazine, he acknowledges that ancient legends said these lines were literally shape-shifting reptilians, but in an obvious swipe at The Biggest Secret, he says that it is astonishing in these more enlightened times that anyone can still believe it.

Sorry, Sir Laurence, the evidence will overwhelm you and is already beginning to do so.

Laurence Gardner has quite a CV: Chancellor of the Royal Court of the Dragon Sovereignty, which first emerged in Egypt in around 2,200BC and is now based in Britain; Prior of the Celtic Church's Sacred Kindred of St Columba, and an "internationally known sovereign and chivalric genealogist" Chevalier Labhran de Saint Germain, "Presidential Attache to the European Council of Princes - a constitutional advisory body established in 1946" formally attached to the Noble Household Guard of the Royal House of Stewart, founded at St German-enLaye in 1692, and is the Jacobite Historiographer Royal.

According to Arizona Wilder and now Stewart Swerdlow, however, Sir Laurence Gardner has other duties also. Here I am going to outline in Swerdlow's own words what he says his experiences have been of Sir Laurence, and indeed William F. Buckley Jr., the head of the elite Janus mind control operation based at NATO headquarters in Belgium:

Stewart Swerdlow told me:

" When I was at Montauk between 1970 and 1983, I started out there at a very low level. I was not supposed to survive. It was only later when they saw that I was living when I shouldn't have been that they told me that less than one per cent of the experimented children survived. And of that one per cent very few made it into society.

Not that I claim to function well in society, because I really don't, but, however, I am doing better than other people are as far as survivors are concerned.

And you should understand that the ceremonies that were conducted at Montauk were very occasional. In other words they would occur at certain times of the year. And they would bring in people that were not usually there, one of whom was William F. Buckley, and one of the other ones was someone who I didn't know his name. We didn't know the names, usually.

It wasn't until years later that I saw a picture of Gardner and I realised it was him. It was quite a shock to me that here was this man who performed heinous ceremonies with me and there he was on this video I was watching, which, by the way, was made by Duncan Roads (a Nexus video). This was quite a shock to me. He was promoting as the truth the bloodline of the Holy Grail and the Jesus connection and all that stuff which is all diversion. All religion is artificial.

In the ceremony they would have sacrifices and during the bloodletting, especially if there were infants involved, these beings would change into a reptilian form. And the interesting thing about it is that there would be this yellow-green slime residue after the ceremonies. It would be on my body and on the altars and on the flooring. I have also since found it on my children as well, which is disturbing to me.

During the ceremony Gardner would be the one that would actually take over from the Mother Goddess. There was also a male counterpart to the Mother Goddess and he (Gardner) would actually take a blade from the male figure and he would plunge it into the infants body. And then he would, having shifted into reptilian form, he would devour the intestinal body of the infant.

To be quite honest I hate remembering these things. They are very disturbing to me. To this day I can't be around blood or anything reptilian. The blood sacrifice is very, very, disturbing to me.

My memory of that person (Gardner) started in about 1973 and went to 1980. It happened about three times a year that I would see him at the Montauk rituals. His face was the same, but his hair was darker and he was a bit thinner than he looks now.

I remember his face and the attitude...he has very powerful eyes and that is what I would focus on during the ceremony, was the eyes. And that is how some of the energy was transferred between us and them.

(When Stewart Swerdlow wrote about this, without naming names, in his autobiography, he was threatened, he says, and so were his children. He was jailed at one stage, also, by the government.)

Gardner would come in with a lot of pomp and ceremony. He would wear a kind of purple-violet robe and was naked underneath it. And then soon as he would shape-shift, the robe would come off and they placed a gold crown on his head. And the crown had what looked like an amber and a ruby, alternate stones all the way around.

William F. Buckley Jr. (the American publisher who heads the elite Janus mind control project at NATO headquarters) was the most awful of all of them. Quite honestly he used his teeth a lot. He used to bite a lot. He got pleasure out of hurting people by biting them after he shape-shifted. To this very day I have an aversion to that kind of thing.

In his shape-shifted form, Gardner was like a whitish-grey colour and had a very pointed back of his head. His eyes were kind of elongated, but not so reptilian, it was almost like they were a cross between human and reptilian. But dark, like a dark, golden brown. And he was not very tall, he was only about six-foot when he shifted.

Buckley was taller, he was around seven feet when he shifted, and he had a split in his crown, in other words it looked like horns instead of the top of his head. And he was rounder, more of a greenish white colour.

You see we were indoctrinated a lot at Montauk. We were told that there were seven levels of the reptilian race and the heirarchy of them were very similar to the Hindu caste system. So there were accordingly different shapes that occurred. The lower levels never really shifted, they were the little worker drones, if you want to call it that. The top of the line, the Brahmin-type, were very tall and winged (the Draco I talk about in the Biggest Secret and Credo Mutwa describes in The Reptilian Agenda videos).

SHAPESHIFTING

There are locked sequences and open sequences in DNA. Open sequences manifest physically as a characteristic. These people have the ability to lock off certain genetic codings while they open others. When that happens there is a literal transformation of the cellular structure, which changes from a mammalian to a reptilian form. So it's not like the human form goes anywhere, it just shifts, it changes into a reptilian form because those sequences are opened. They also have the ability to shift it back.

But they do need mammalian hormonal levels in order to maintain the human form. Their base-line form is reptilian. (Princess Diana's confidant, Christine Fitzgerald, told me that the House of Windsor wanted to interbreed with Diana's genes because they were in danger of becoming too reptilian in their genetics and would not have been able to maintain a human form for many more generations - see The Biggest Secret) .

All humans on this planet have reptilian DNA. That's why we have the reptilian brain. Just watch a foetus in the womb and you'll see it go through a reptilian form before it becomes human. And that's what they are doing. They are able to shift that DNA back to the reptilian form and manifest that physically.

However, when they do that their psychic abilities are not very strong and that's why they have the ceremonies and why they need a mammalian form with the human harmonics in order to access higher levels of awareness. (This is why people like Arizona Wilder are mind controlled to conduct the ceremonies for them).

It is the resonance or the vibration of the blood, which creates an energetic field that they can access. And they get plugged into it. That's why infants and foetuses are so important to them, because it's so energetic and so pure that they can really access the switching from one point to another very easily.

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

The reptilians were the first ones to colonize this planet. That's why they consider it theirs. When this other group, a more human form came and colonized, and there were battles here, the human form actually won on the surface and the reptilians went underground and that's where the rumours of hell and stuff came from. That was about 200,000 years ago. It's not as recent as people think.

The original reptilians are coming back, they are here now, and the ones who remained on this planet developed their own little sub-culture, which went against what the overall plan was. And now they're afraid of their own people. There's a lot of scurrying around, if you want to call it that, to protect against the original population that's coming back and there's going to be a gigantic battle on this planet in the next few years. I think there's going to be war and the human-reptilian hybrids that are here are going to defend themselves against the originals, the true-breds.

This planet does not have any greatness to it, in or of itself, it's the location it has within the galaxy and the location it has within inter-dimensional travel that makes it so desirable. That's why this place is so important."

So make of all that what you will. If Sir Laurence Gardner has any reply to what Stewart Swerdlow is saying, please send it to this website and I will make sure that every word is printed with equal prominence.

David Icke

Web posted at: http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles2/gardnershifts.html

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And the exchange between Roads and Icke:




<a href="http://educate-yourself.org/cn/duncanroadsreplytoickeongardner.shtml">Nexus Publisher, Duncan Roads
Replies to David Icke's Expose that Sir Laurence Gardner is a Reptilian Shape-Shifter

by David Icke</a>
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/duncanroadsreplytoickeongardner.shtml

NEXUS PUBLISHER REPLIES TO GARDNER CLAIMS

by David Icke

The following is a reply from Duncan Roads, the publisher of NEXUS magazine, to the claims by Stewart Swerdlow and Arizona Wilder about Sir Laurence Gardner. In the interests of the free flow of views and information, and your right to come to your own conclusions, I print it in full. My responses are also included in dark red.

Dear David,

It was with considerable shock and horror that I read the posting about Sir Laurence Gardner on your website. I am glad, however, that you have so publicly promised to post any of Laurence's replies.

My Reply:
Sure...I just want to know what is going on and put all information before people. It is for them to decide what they think in the light of that.
Duncan Roads:

Since you are so happy to publish Stewart's (alleged) experiences involving Laurence, I wonder if you would care to consider my own?

My Reply:
Sure. Sad, though, that what you make out to be a personal letter to me was sent to a stream of other people before it got to me.This, therefore, meant there was no right of reply for me like I am offering to Sir Laurence and to you. But never mind, whatever. If that's the way you feel it appropriate to conduct yourself, please feel free.

Duncan Roads:
I have paid for Laurence to come to Australia twice now. Each time he came to speak at our annual NEXUS Conference. He was so well received, and so popular the first time, that we brought him over a second time.

My Reply:
Many people are popular in Australia, including, God forbid, among large numbers of Australians, the Queen of England. Don't see the relevance in this, mate.

Duncan Roads:
As you no doubt are aware, we have run three series of articles written by Sir Laurence. Feedback from our Internet Reader Survey, plus the many letters and emails indicate his articles are a great source of fascination for readers of NEXUS and their immediate circles.

My Reply:
Fine, but what is your point? To be honest, I cannot see how it connects to the article and invitation to Sir Laurence Gardner to put the record straight on what Stewart is saying he experienced.

Duncan Roads:
I chose to run those articles as they challenge the existing 'status quo' of western religions, plus provide interesting insights into the history of Christianity. I considered that they presented exciting and empowering views of history, and how are lives are affected to this day.

My Reply:
Again, where are you going here, Duncan? I have not challenged Nexus Magazine's right to publish Sir Laurence Gardner's articles. You have a right to publish what you like. What I was pointing out was that Sir Laurence has been given major coverage in Nexus to present his views without criticism or questioning from you or the magazine. In contrast you have gone out of your way to criticise and dismiss my own book and views which, even more than Sir Laurence, "...challenge the existing 'status quo' of western religions, plus provide interesting insights into the history of Christianity". Double standards.

Duncan Roads:
I am aware that your own views of history incorporate the belief that Christ did not exist.

My Reply:
As I have said many times, my research points to the fact that no 'historical Jesus Christ" ever existed. Was there ever a Jewish man named "Jesus Christ"? Or is this a perversion by way of intentional frauds by the church? The answers are no there was not and yes it is.

And how come the "Jesus" stories are awash with exactly the same events and experiences told about countless pre-Christian deities going back thousands of years? Just a co-incidence? I am far from the only one who challenges the literal existence of the Biblical "Jesus". If he did not exist, of course, there cannot be a bloodline back to him, which is the whole foundation of Sir Laurence's work. He has a right to say one thing, I have a right to say another. Simple.

Duncan Roads:
I am also therefore aware that the ideas promoted by two, high-profile researchers of late, Zecharia Sitchin and Laurence Gardner, are contradictory to your own. I perceive, thus, that you have reasonable motive to character assassinate them.

My Reply:
Really, Duncan, this is just silly. I really don't give a damn whether people believe in the historical Jesus or whether they think Sitchin is correct in everything he says. Why on earth should that ever matter to me? It is none of my business what people believe. In fact, I agree with quite a bit of what Sitchin says and, as I said in the website article, Sir Laurence Gardner has much fact in his writings. Why do you have to portray everything in such black and white terms? People should read what I write, what Sitchin writes, and what Sir Laurence writes. Then they should come to their own conclusions. I couldn't care less what those conclusions are because it is none of my business.

Duncan Roads:
Zecharia Sitchin and Laurence Gardner are well-respected by the public, not just for the content of their ideas, but because they have originated NEW concepts and ideas to consider. They have taken existing pieces of the puzzle, and have found new pieces to present a bigger suggested picture.

My Reply:
Yes, but so what? That also applies to you and your magazine, and to me and my books, and to Henry Kissinger. Doesn't mean that what we say is all true, does it?

Duncan Roads:
In contrast, you have built your 'research reputation' upon the work of others. Even the reptilian conspiracy theory you promote is not new. The only thing original in your 'research' is that you have persecuted two much-needed original thinkers!

My Reply:
Oh Duncan, don't be daft. You have built your magazine upon the work of others. You could not publish a single edition, but for that. Of course you, and Gardner, and Sitchin, Bible teachers, academics, myself, and every other researcher uses and studies previous research on subject matter. Every doctorate thesis also includes a bibliography of 'prior research,' to give evidence and credibility to the conclusions of the author of the thesis. Did you talk to Sir Laurence Gardner about this statement? Don't you think he read other research before coming to his conclusions? You don't think he read the book, "Holy Blood- Holy Grail"? I know he has used the research of others, but how can anyone not do so when they are trying to piece together vast amounts of information?

What utter nonsense this is, Duncan, what utter hypocrisy!

Now persecution. I have the accounts of two witnesses on file to the statements in the article concerning Sir Laurence Gardner. Two witnesses is a common law application directly from the wording in the Bible and adopted throughout history as defence in law. Two witnesses have come forward with their separate and individual accounts concerning Sir Laurence Gardner. In common law, the word of two witnesses stand as FACT, unless controverted by greater evidence. I have reported the accounts of these two witnesses. Your letter offers no controverting evidence in law to refute the testimony of two witnesses. Let anyone produce that evidence and I will publish it with equal prominence immediately. I just want the truth - whatever it is.

Duncan Roads:
I have had personal dealings with Laurence and Zecharia. I wonder if you have ever bothered to consider contacting them before publicly attacking their characters and promoting the idea of their being shape-shifting reptilian aliens from another dimension who kill and eat babies at satanic Illuminati ritual sacrifices? That would have been considered good research in my books!

My Reply:
Duncan, I am not saying they do. I was not there. I am reporting what people say they experienced. I am KEEN, let alone willing, to publish whatever they want to say in reply to these claims which is relevant to what is being suggested.

If you have controverting evidence.. bring it forward and I will publish it here - willingly. I just want to know what is going on. The group you do not refer to in your letter even once are the stunning numbers of children who are being abused and ritually murdered and tortured day after day. What about them? Do we not owe it to all of them, past, present, and future, to do all we can to find out what is happening? That's all I am trying to do.

Does anyone think I enjoy pouring over this stuff every day? There are many more things I would much rather do with my life, thank-you. But if we walk away, it goes on.

Duncan Roads:
Instead, you have chosen to rely on two obviously traumatised individuals. Assuming for a moment that their experiences ARE based in THIS reality, I can assure you that Arizona Wilder is NOT considered 'reliable' by others in her 'field'; and your latest witness for the prosecution, Stewart Swerdlow, is considered by other, original Montauk experiencers as VERY suspect.

My Reply:
Ms. Wilder has also made the same and similar allegations against William Buckley, but you did not come to his defence. How can you assure me of anything concerning Ms. Wilder? You say I should have contacted Gardner and Sitchin. Have you contacted and spoken to Ms. Wilder before condemning her and dismissing her in your magazine and elsewhere? No. Like, I say, it's just hypocrisy, Duncan. And what is Arizona Wilder's "field"? Suffering appalling abuse from the time you are born is not a "field". Goodness me.

Now for spurious... Did you know the "official website' of the European Council of Princes resided on a Gardner products website? Did you know the "official website" of the Royal Stewart line of Scotland resided on a Gardner products website? Did you know the "official website" of Prince Michael resided on a Gardner products website? Are you aware that there are geneologists who claim to have debunked Prince Michael's claims, promoted by Sir Laurence, as without foundation? Have you said so in Nexus to give balance?

Duncan Roads:
If gossip and innuendo are all you need to defame people like Sitchin and Gardner, maybe you should be held to the same scales of justice?

My Reply:
I am held to the same scales of justice that you insinuate. I have had my character assassinated for ten years in the UK media, Duncan, and the South Africa media, etc., etc.. That's just one of the hazards of doing what I do. Don't give a shit.

Duncan Roads:
After spending many years organising conferences, talks, workshops for scores of new-age speakers/gurus, (this was before I took over NEXUS) I can honestly say a lot don't really 'have it together'. Many want women on the side, money before they talk, drink, drugs, 5 star travel, or just more money. Laurence was certainly NOT one of these.

My Reply:
Okay, I give up. Where did I ever say that he was?

Duncan Roads:
Thus, when I select speakers for our conference, I always 'check them out' with other conference organisers around the world. You would be amazed at some of the experiences we swap! Admittedly, Zecharia is not considered the easiest person to work with, but he is widely considered as professional, honest and up front. Laurence came up with glowing recommendations from the one or two organisers I could find.

My Reply:
Good, pleased for you.

Duncan Roads:
You, David Icke, on the other hand, I should point out, have a reputation with some organisers to the point where they have told me they will never have you back again. The list of businesses that will never deal with you again is also quite long, even here in Australia. Are they ALL reptiles too? Would YOU like me to publicly mention what they all say about you?

My Reply:
If you do Duncan, you will be doing what you are accusing me of doing. But go ahead mate...name them...name them all. Send the names to this website and I will post them right here.

But why are the numbers of people keen to help me getting bigger all the time?

Duncan Roads:
I can only go on my gut feelings about Laurence. I was able to spend several days of lunches, dinners and drinks with him. I had considerable time to form a character judgement of him, and based on these experiences I found him to be one of the most honest, reliable, and refreshingly egoless people for whom I have ever organised events.

My Reply:
So what? You now stand as a character witness for Sir Laurence. Good, that's your right. But again and again you have refused to address the point.

Duncan Roads:
On a personal note, I want to say how disappointed I am personally with where you have taken this. I, like many others, used to look up to you. You are very charismatic on stage, a powerful and motivated speaker, and very energetic. Your passion for what you believe comes through very strongly. Your advocation of values such as unconditional love earned my respect the instant I read it.

However your trawling the internet for anyone who has anything negative on Laurence borders on the tactics and style of the very tabloid trash media you so cheerfully criticise. I wonder what I would get if I asked for anyone with any dirt on David Icke to contact me?

My Reply:
Go ahead. I am sure you would get plenty. But they would not tell you anything that has not been printed already or that did not appear in my autobiography. Tell you what, Duncan, if you want to publish dirt on me, give me a ring. I might be able to help you with the detail.

(By the way, children are being tortured and killed around the world as we speak. Is this really the best use of our energy??)

I did not "trawl" the internet for trash on anyone. I ask the thousands who come to my website what they know about a stream of subjects - just as you get information to your magazine constantly from readers. Why have thousands of people coming to a website every day and not use their knowledge and experiences to move our understanding forward?

I have done precisely this with the Ritual Child Abuse going on world-wide. Are you saying I should not do that, then?

Duncan Roads:
I have now come to believe that you are just desperate for sensationalism, at any cost. Your use of twisting carefully selected extracts from Laurence's work indicates clearly that you have little interest in engaging in constructive debate. You have chosen smear instead of seeking the truth of the matter. What still amazes me is that you have not even bothered to contact Laurence to discuss any of this. You should really apply for a job at Weekly World News, or with Rupert Murdoch - their journalists use similar tactics.

My Reply:
When did you contact Arizona Wilder, Duncan? Oh, that's right, you didn't. And, by the way, far from carefully selecting extracts from Sir Laurence's work, I add a link in the article to his site and EXACTLY what he is saying in his own words. Also, if I was interested only in "sensationalism", why would I turn my attention to a person who 99% of the population on Planet Earth have never heard of??

Duncan Roads:
Ironic that one of the 'conspiracy movement's' recent 'stars' is putting the boot into two such admired writers/researchers such as Laurence Gardner and Zecharia Sitchin!

I personally believe that you have Laurence and Zecharia completely wrong! I do not believe that they are shape-shifting reptilian aliens as you depict. I believe Arizona and Stewart are totally mistaken in this respect.

My Reply:
Fine, and you have every right to believe that. Arizona and Stewart say they experienced something different. Its called life and freedom of expression. I repeat, I just want to know what the truth is, either way. I am merely reporting what they say and giving everyone the opportunity to say something different. I have invited Sir Laurence to respond. Why are you doing it and not he?

Duncan Roads:
You accuse me on your webpage as being scathing of your claims about Gardner. This is correct.

You imply that this is because I have 'massively promoted' Gardner. This is incorrect. I am scathing of your claims because based on my own personal experiences with Gardner and Sitchin, I simply do not believe they are shape-shifting reptilian aliens from another dimension who kill and eat babies at satanic Illuminati ritual sacrifices!

My Reply:
You just said you have organised events for Gardner, and published his articles at length. Further, you stated that you had "lunches, dinners and drinks with him, ...had considerable time to form a character judgement of him ...(and)...have paid for Laurence to come to Australia." That is massive involvement and therefore, promotion for a magazine.

Duncan Roads:
Of all the likely contenders out there to be reptiles, you continually pick on Sir Laurence Gardner, almost to the point of obsession! (I notice you have dropped off accusations of Sitchin of late). I suggest you are targetting Sir Laurence purely because his research contradicts your own theories about the non-existence of Christ.

My Reply:
Oh my goodness. Does anyone with any discernable brain-cell activity, really believe that I would do this because another author disagrees about Jesus?? Duncan, Duncan, Duncan, is that really the best you can offer?

I did not PICK on anyone, certainly not Sir Laurence Gardner. No-one would be more delighted than me if what is said about him is not correct. I can only report what is being said and that's what I do. Look at the stream of other far more famous people named by Arizona Wilder, Cisco Wheeler, Fritz Springmeier and so many others. Why do you not cite them? Sir Laurence is hardly mentioned in The Biggest Secret, and yet a long, long, list of other far more famous names are. How can you then claim that I am "picking" on Sir Laurence?

I did not send out letters or my articles to Laurence's detractors, nor did I attempt to post my article on Laurence's website, forum, or network. But you or your colleagues did with your letter in relation to me.

Duncan Roads:
Why else would you be so hung up on the guy?

My Reply:
I am not hung up on anyone. It is the simple pursuit of what is going on. If anyone is obsessed with Sir Laurence, Duncan, it would appear to be you.

Duncan Roads:
PS: If you do end up posting this for all to see, be sure to tell them to read the FULL series of articles by Sir Laurence, available for free at our website- Nexus Magazine. I notice the link you refer to on your website may not give readers access to the full range of Gardner's articles. An accidental oversight on your behalf I am sure.

My Reply:
Tis done...the free flow of information is all I am concerned about. I am sure that now you will have the same concerns and include in any articles referring to me in your magazine that my website is http://www.davidicke.com

Funny, you never have so far. An accidental oversight, I'm sure.

I would just end by saying that after reading what is, for me, an extremely childish letter, my lasting question is this: Are you REALLY the publisher of a magazine that has designs on being taken seriously?

You are? My God. I will never see it in the same light again. And I'm sure I am not the only one.

all the best,
David Icke

rangergord
05-01-2005, 03:48 PM
A series of events beginning over 24 years ago and a lot of reseach led me to this idea as the most logical.

Who are Ross, et.al.? Theological and Philosophical Apologetics (http://www.reasons.org/)

Who is Ross? Seems like a reasonably intelligent guy. (http://www.reasons.org/about/staff/ross.shtml)

Heck, you can even listen to the radio archives (on Real Player) by topic. linky (http://www.reasons.org/resources/multimedia/rtbradio/cu_archives/index.shtml#this_weeks_cu)




nakedsnake wrote:
Lights in the sky and little green men-speculations about them may always persist. But solid answers to questions about them do exist. Considering the issues in relationship to physical science, theology, philosophy, psychology, sociology, and political science can help solve the mysteries.
Ever since the beggining of the "Flying Saucer age" in 1947, and even well before that, people have observed what appear to be mysterious aerial visitors. The nature of these phenomena makes them difficult, but not impossible to study. Investigators have developed classification systems to help them in shifting through the multitude of UFO reports. researchers are able to offer standard explanations for most of the sightings-the UFOs are hoaxes or fireballs or the planet Venus or the lights of an aircraft, for example.But a small percentage of UFOs remains unexplained after all the natural explanations have been exausted...where would extaterrestial intelligence come from?...The extradimensional hypothesis holds promise...The space-time theorems show that supernature must exist, because nature was plainly originated by something beyond itself. Therefore, a scientifically credible possibility exits that RUFOs (RUFOs are physical visitors from outer space) come from beyond the four familiar dimensions of the universe. If one takes the extradimensional hypothesis to mean that entities could come into the universe from a spiritual realm, one can see a remarkable correspondence between science and scripture. The Bible describes a Creator who is beyond matter, energy, and the space-time dimensions of the universe. It also describes spirit beings who are able to enter the universe and exibit physical effects. A closer examination of RUFOs shows that they are consistent with the Bible's descriptions of Demons. The RUFOs appear to be alive and to be acting in an intelligent way with malevolent intentions...the connection with the occult is plain to see in the case of those who have the closest encounters with UFOs: abductees and contactees. Abductees are people who tell astory of being captured by aliens and taken aboard spacecraft for examination. Contactees are people who claim to be used by aliens as channels of information. Thse reported experiences are completely in line with such occult practices as trance channeling of "ascended Masters"...The truth about UFOs can be known. Indeed the UFO mystery is a mystery solved. Earth is not being visited by aliens from another planet, but some people are being visited by spirit beings who want everyone to think they are aliens from another planet.

From Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men
by Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples, and Mark Clarck


This view is consistent with the NWO agenda as the New Agers are awaiting their ascended master to unite the world in peace see this link

http://conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/New_World_Order.htm

truebeliever
05-01-2005, 05:31 PM
On Icke? Who cares.

I mean at the end of the day the man says what he says...it speaks for itself.

It's not enough that secretive Death Cults originating in Germany plan to instigate chaos to usher in a One World Government and control a tyranny the likes of which we'vew never seen? No, Icke must include his Lizards.

Why? Why do that when you NO it will discredit you totally.

I've heard the idiot interviewed by Jones and he is an immature prat. When challenged he goes completely defensive..."I dont care what you think mate...!"...oh but David..."infinite love is all"...

What a tosser.

To write what he writes but display a seemingly infantile reaction to what is obviously an EXTREMELY dubious topic says something...a mature adult would have the capacity to accept the publics reaction....the point is Ickes views are PURE indulgence and an attempt to say..."I'M RIGHT SO THERE".

He has no desire to make the world a better place...just be "right" and indulge his every fantastical whim.

We're on the Titanic...i'd like to inform the passengers of the danger...Icke wants to debate whether the Captain is giving it to the first mates wife...it's gossipy shit.

At the end of the day...what gets me closer to the common goal? It aint Icke in fact he is TOTALLY counterproductive.

And in fact...say there are Lizards shape shifting on the W/End...so what? Say you prove it...and? And what? NOTHING...the Elite soldier on...fuck me, Bush - a complete embarressment to the U.S people, who cant read, write or speak - an apparent religio NUT - lies the most embarrassing lies possible - goes to a ridiculous indefensible war and presides over a pretty amature geo political scam...and the people still dont get it...so what of the Lizard man?

He is what he is....useful idiot or deliberate paid disinformationist...take your pick.

I stick to pretty mainstream stuff with people. I try not to indulge my desire for "pure conspiricy indulgence".

I think he is one of THE most counterproductive twits out there. :-P

nohope187
05-01-2005, 06:42 PM
David Icke probably got most of his ideas from that TV show "V". :-P

Draken
05-02-2005, 04:17 AM
Forget about Icke. The issue is not about him. My point is that I've dismissed Icke so far, exactly for the same reasons you cite, i.e. the lizard shape-shifting alien story sounds too crazy to be believed by anyone reasonably sane. And yes, Icke bears quite a resemblance to Michael Moore, with his sociopathic, childish behaviour and that doesn't help the credibility of his theory.

But anyone who's read the research of Sir Laurence Gardner into the alleged secret bloodline of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and the issues connected to this theory know that it's VERY hard to dismiss Gardner's theories and arguments. It sounds very convincing, and that's probably because there's a lot of truth in it. But still I get a foul hint of a taste in my mouth because having read most of Gardner's books (not the last one, <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007200846/ref=nosim/edazzlenet-21/202-5560105-8979048?dev-t=08FC0AFA9SSP0BEHY8G2">The Magdalene Legacy: The Jesus and Mary Bloodline Conspiracy</a>) I get the feeling I'm being led to believe he's right but IF he's right then the whole thing would lead to an acceptance of a ruling class who have in their blood the right to rule and has always been higher in the hierarchy, which sounds too much like NWO to me.

Like I said before, I would not have any problem of pledging allegiance to a leader who I KNOW is spiritually superior to me; that kind of person is the only kind of person I would trust to do the right thing for the good of all people under his protection.

But this whole issue of blood and its significance is fascinating because on the one hand, spiritual legacy is paramount to biological legacy, and the alleged Jesus/Mary Magdalene bloodline is therefore irrelevant; the possibility to transform oneself's consciousness and rise above oneself is within EVERY human being.
On the OTHER hand, blood seems to play a vital role in evil occult rituals and magic, that we strongly suspect to be at the foundation of the evil elite's power over the earth.

As a conclusion, I'm suspicious by default to anything which is becoming more and more financially successful, which the books and theories of Laurence Gardner are.

BTW, Laurence Gardner co-authored the first books in his series and relied heavily on the private library of one <a href="http://www.nicholasdevere.com/">Nicholas de Vere von Drakenberg</a>. This leads me to believe Gardner might even have stolen material or plagiarized de Vere's material since I found the writings of de Vere on the net before Gardner published his own books on the exact same subject AND with the help of de Vere, without which Gardner would be nowhere. De Vere's original work is online - <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20030207162340/www.dragoncourt.org/pubasset/toc.asp">"From Transylvania To Tunbridge Wells"</a> and <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20030207162947/www.dragoncourt.org/ringasset/toc.asp">"The Origin Of The Dragon Lords Of The Rings"</a>. On the homepage of de Vere's Dragon Court he links to a lot of the material of Gardner and the like: Sitchin, Robert Temple, Knight&Lomas, Baigent et al., BUT he also links to sites I know for a fact are genuine, because they deal with Hungarian/Magyar history and myth.

The intriguing controversy is that a few years ago I happened to come across De Vere's "Royal Imperial Dragon Court and Order" on the net. There I started to read his two e-books, "From Transylvania To Tunbridge Wells" and "The Origin Of The Dragon Lords Of The Rings". Then De Vere helped Gardner's research by letting Gardner use his private library. Suddenly Gardner publishes his books "Genesis of the Grail Kings", "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" and "Realm of the Ring Lords" and the suspicion of plagiarism crops up in my head the first time.
Another intriguing thing is that the reason I got into this research in the first place was not at all NWO research but the fact that the order Nicholas de Vere claims to be the head of is supposedly a Hungarian chivalric order that among others Prince Vlad (of actual, historic "Dracula" fame) belonged to.

So in conclusion, there's a lot of genuine fact concerning Hungarian/Magyar suppressed history and myth in the writings of both de Vere and Gardner but it seems to me Gardner stole a lot from de Vere, started HIS OWN Dragon Court and claimed his is THE GENUINE one and not de Vere's! Therefore the two rivalling Dragon Courts. I suspect de Vere is the genuine one and Gardner then the subversion agent, NWO psychopolitician, the guy sent to discredit and corrupt the quite possibly genuine intentions of de Vere and his seemingly genuine Dragon Court.

Check out Gardner's writings for NEXUS (links here below) and also check out the <a href="http://www.dragoncourt.org/Writings/writings.htm">LINKS from de Vere's Dragon Court website</a>, especially the one concerning "Sumerians, Scythians, and other Grail peoples."

Certainly a lot of disinfo here to cut through to the Truth, which I intend to do!


BLOODLINE OF THE HOLY GRAIL
<a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/holygrail1.html">Part 1</a> (links to Part 2 & Part 3 in Part 1)
- by Sir Laurence Gardner

STAR FIRE: The Gold of the Gods
<a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/starfire1.html">Part 1</a> (links to Part 2 & Part 3 in Part 1)
- by Sir Laurence Gardner

REALM OF THE RING LORDS
<a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/ringlords1.html">Part 1</a> (link to Part 2 in Part 1)
- by Sir Laurence Gardner

<a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/LaurenceGardner.html">LAURENCE GARDNER INTERVIEW</a>
- by Atasha McMillan

MasonTemplar
05-05-2005, 08:53 AM
It's people like Icke that hurts what we're trying to do. I personally think that he's a planted disinfo man. Everything he says makes sense until the reptilian thing. Which discredits everything he says and anyone else who's done anything on the subject. Guilt, or stupidity, by association.
I agree, Draken, that everyone has the ability to reach that higher spiritual plain. However, I believe that in some people it might be easier than others because of their bloodline. That's why clairvoyance runs in families. But, in the end, you're right about everyone having the ability.

Draken
05-05-2005, 02:23 PM
MasonTemplar wrote:
everyone has the ability to reach that higher spiritual plain. However, I believe that in some people it might be easier than others because of their bloodline. That's why clairvoyance runs in families.

Let me specify: everyone has the ability to reach that higher plain THAT IS WITHIN THEIR INDIVIDUAL SPIRITUAL POTENTIAL. Meaning, everyone's higher spiritual plain is NOT the same identical plain; one has to fulfill one's particular potential; to find one's place within the Divine hierarchy.

I don't see clairvoyance necessarily as "that higher spiritual plain" we're talking about. Neither do I think that whatever hidden properties blood has is the all relevant issue.
As an aside, Carlos Castaneda might have clairvoyant abilities and be able to perform all sorts of paranormal feats, but that's not proof of spiritual superiority: he's infamous for having seduced many of his female followers and driving genuine seekers of spiritual insight and truth mad, leading them astray in psychic phenomena without being able to control the situation or help the ones caught in mental/psychic traps.

In conclusion, I agree with Evola (or rather, he convinced me) that blood legacy matters but it's inferior - it's only biology - to spiritual legacy, which is metaphysical, that is, it is a transcendent reality.

I hope this attempt to clarify helps, at least a bit, to explain my views.

Anyone seriously interested in matters of metaphysics and transcendence (and absolutely NOT the New Age nonsense!) should check out my threads
<a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=590&forum=3&PHPSESSID=5f4576f772b94c8c6b1008788ab65db6">INTEGRAL TRADITION Revolt against the modern world CONSERVATIVE REVOLUTION</a>, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=677&forum=3&PHPSESSID=5f4576f772b94c8c6b1008788ab65db6">SOLIPSISM - KALI-YUGA - RIGHT-WING ATTITUDE by Ferenc Buji</a>, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1260&forum=23&PHPSESSID=5f4576f772b94c8c6b1008788ab65db6">The Cyclic View of History by Savitri Devi, 1948</a>, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=601&forum=2&PHPSESSID=5f4576f772b94c8c6b1008788ab65db6">Individual, Spiritual Resistance To Ego & NWO</a> and the discussions of Vlad and crowneagle, who both left us some time ago but who both had very important ideas and views.

truebeliever
05-05-2005, 07:12 PM
On that note Drak...i notice people are using notions of "spirituality" in a very 'ego' sense..."oh i'm very spiritual". Or they use notions of 'occult powers' and 'claryvoience' to make up for a lack of faith in themselves, to give them a sense of power.

I have met people who have had direct experiences of 'other worldly powers' and I have myself. It is terrifying and you never go back.

When i here of people using 'occult powers' i laugh. They are full of shit. NO ONE who has any experience of divine power or of the darker variety goes back for more.

If they do they either end up in a mad house or dead from suicide.

A human being cannot plug into 20 million volts and live though it seems alot are trying.

I blame boredom. Simple boredom.

Draken
05-06-2005, 12:12 PM
I have met people who have had direct experiences of 'other worldly powers' and I have myself. It is terrifying and you never go back.

When i here of people using 'occult powers' i laugh. They are full of shit. NO ONE who has any experience of divine power or of the darker variety goes back for more.

Hang on there, buddy, hold yer horses!

Within three sentences you mention "otherworldly powers", "occult powers", "divine powers" and "dark variety" of power.

They are not the same thing!

Lots of people use occult powers, a lot of the time even without realizing they're doing it.

"Occult powers" are not otherworldly by default; they COULD be, but it's more likely they are very much earthly powers but the knowledge of them and how to use them is HIDDEN for non-initiates.
A few people actually DO use divine powers, but they are more likely to be at least MORE aware of them using divine, as opposed to evil or "dark" powers.

I think you mean people having come into contact with any kind of occult power, WITHOUT BEING PROBERLY AND COMPREHESIVELY PREPARED, in the best case scenario, get scared shitless, and in the worst case scenario die of fright, shock, psychic trauma or something similar.

Sure, if it happens suddenly and you're totally unprepared - of course it would be terrifying.

But in the case a person is properly prepared - mentally, physically, spiritually - to be scared shitless, get stressed, shocked and generally have their illusions thoroughly abused, for the benefit of aquiring spiritual and transcendental wisdom, it IS possible to survive to tell the tale.

That's the whole purpose to choose to walk a spiritual path: to unite with God.

Of course, some people misunderstand or knowingly abuse their knowledge and BOOST their Ego instead of DESTROYING it.

truebeliever
05-06-2005, 09:03 PM
Well, point taken but i can only speak from my own experience.

The purpose of all initiatory experience is to form and mature the mind. To become an adult. To get the inner psychological strength to do the work of God here on Earth...and to do that work with joy as it is your calling.

The more 'primitive' societies had VERY specific boundaries and rituals to protect the neophyte as you have said, which we do not have today. I blame in part the drug problem with an entire society that is DESPERATE for a direct experience of something OUTSIDE the material plane of existence.

In our COMPLETELY dominated, rational/materialistic society, we have leaders who simply cannot grasp this and a corporate Church structure which seeks at all turns to deny this and simply keep the peasants in line and turning the other cheek to unrestrained power.

Perhaps the Catholic Church was the ONLY one still keeping some of this part of existence alight. Perhaps in many ways it was the true Church and not a dried up manufactured meat version but they have bitterly dissapointed myself and so many others with their other behaviours. They are a HUGE personal dissapointment for me.

Through my own personal experiences of the darker and lighter sides of 'the other world' they have left me convinced that they are to be left alone by the majority of people.

We have come from that world. We have eternity to sleep. The life we have here is a miracle and this is where God wants us. There is an Angel with a fiery sword keeping us out, as for most people the search for the divine experience is ego driven and a regression...not a move forward.

The divine is bestowed upon us in a act of grace, it is not searched for. It is normal that after such an experience we want more...the "golden world", "Mysterium Conjunctus" (mysterious connection), Brahma...there is NOTHING like it once it has been experienced.

The ego is shattered...you are NOT master of your own house. There is 'another'. That 'other' expects something of us. Something quite specific and if we will allign ourselves with that life force and trust in it, it will guide us and protect us.

But are we willing to sacrifice complete control over our lives? To let the ego take a back seat? What is the passage in the bible...? Something about "let me die Lord so that you may live".

And then funnily enough you find out that the Lords work is also your own work all along...and your own death was in fact the death of a structure put in place along time ago to protect you from a society that wants you working for the State and not for God...not for your own creative expression.

I dont mean to say that the ego is all bad...it is vital. But just so much of the so called 'spiritualism' i see is so self centered.

The messing with the occult, in the vast majority of cases is childlike and quite pathetic. Should real dark energy be constellated the inductee would shit their pants and sware to God they'd never mess with it again.

Even those idiots at Behemian Grove would'nt know a dark lord if they got hit in the face by one. They are infantile brats playing with fire and thinking it's really cool.

My fear of the occult comes from the practical consequences of child kidnap/torture and murder as we have seen in Belgium...just the tip of the ice berg...plus all their other nefarius activities.

It will be the ordinary person, driven into the arms of "relativity"...that things are relative and ultimate values do not exist which will kill us. Vast numbers of us.

It wont be God doing it. God has withdrawn because He offers us his hand in love and we scoff at it. He sent His Son and we nailed him to a cross...we now sit at the ultimate peak of human consciousness...in no need of God and thinking ourselves in both subtle and overt means to actually be God.

And heres 'Lucifer' the 'Light Bringer'. FMB's little God.

Totally full of himself and completely unwilling to bow to anything but power...over nature, over people, over technology and ultimately over God.

We're like an arrogent fish who proclaims water to be unnescssary and the medium that is holding us back from our full potential. A ludicris proposition but essentially what is happening.

Sorry, i've waffled off subject. I realised half way through but carried on as I like to print these up and put them in a box to look at 40 years from now.

I enjoy our chats Drak...i think i responded somewhere in their.

Draken
05-07-2005, 01:53 PM
Sure you did. :-)

I enjoy our chats too!

At the moment I'm very tired but I have a couple of quotes - three in fact:

"God is not limited to the way He appears to you by making Himself appropriate to your ability to recieve him. Therefore, no other creatures are obliged to obey the God you worship, for He appears to them in other forms."

Ibn Arabi


"The mystics speak in a hundred different ways, but if God is one and the Way is one, how could their meaning be other than one? What appears in different disguises is one essence. A variety of forms, but a unity in essence."

Rumi


"A man knocked on a door. "Who is there?" asked God. "Me," replied the man. "Go away then," said God. The man left and wandered in the arid desert until he realized his error and returned to the door. He knocked again. "Who's there?" asked God. "You," answered the man. "Then come in," replied God. "There's no room here for two."

Sufi teaching story


When I'm tired and feel drained of all energy and I've been spiritually attacked by consumerism, commerce, materialism, corruption and degradation I return to these little gems of Sufi wisdom. They help uplift my spirit and get my strength back.

I had one of those days today - draining.

Peace everyone!

I'm going to listen to Bach solo violin partitas and drink hot tea with my lovely girlfriend.

Ahmad, forgive me and let's forget our differences and realize what we have in common.

Truth, Beauty, Love ALWAYS!

truebeliever
05-07-2005, 07:25 PM
Ah you see...the essence of it all.

We sin (get nasty at each other)...we ackowledge our sin...and then we are forgiven.

We join the community of sinners. I love it!

What a relief! What a load off the shoulders! To acknowledge no one is perfect and it's inevitable we will sin and be less than perfect.
---------------------------------------------------
I like the quotes. Yes. There is a time to acknowledge my common spirit with God but also to be seperate.

To me religion is simple. As you know I like Carl Jung alot. He's stated that the Gods have left the temples and will never return. I could'nt agree more.

The movement now is towards a responsible living of ones life and attention to ones calling. That will be our worship and commerce with God.

There's to much talking and not enough walking as you've said.

The Church has become a regression. A place to feel safe and not take responsability for your life. To simply "follow the rules" instead of owning your unique role in life.

It's going to be a difficult transition. Nothing like a good disaster or two to get us moving and into action.

Draken
05-08-2005, 03:13 AM
Yeah, but remember that all cycles come to an end and start all over again. So God might've left the temples but He will return at the beginning of the next cycle.

The point is we're all made in the image of God and therefore Godlike and should strive to BE Godlike!

Remember that you can have a church or temple WITHIN, for the body should BE the temple of your SOUL. Who needs a church, synagogue, mosque or temple to go to if you have your own temple within?

A few more quotes:

"There are two types of death. One which is inevitable and common to all, and one which is voluntary and experienced by the few. It is the second death which the Messenger of Allah prescribed saying, "Die before you die." Those who die this voluntary death are resurrected. All the business of their lives return to the Oneness of God. They see God through God. As the Prophet said, on him be grace and peace, "You will not see your Lord until you are dead." This is because it is through this death and resurrection that everything becomes nothing and only One thing exists - One Reality. For initiates, whatever will befall a believer after physical death is prefigured in this life. This return of the many forms of things to Allah and the end of their becoming, is only a change in perception not in the Reality. For someone who dies and attains resurrection, the many are One through an essential Unity; and the One is many through His many aspects and their relationships."

I seem to recall a certain mysterious fellow from Nazareth talking about the same thing...

This is the death of the EGO, not the body. That's why a Sufi can honestly say, "I am God!" because he negates himself. Paraphrasing Rumi, someone who says, "I am the servant of God" infers two - God and himself - whereas someone who says, "I am God" means "I don't exist. Everything is God. Only God exists."

Also, that's what it means when the man knocks on God's door and says to God, "I'm You," meaning his Ego is dead and only God remains in its place.

Bayazid al-Bistami:

"I didn't take a single footstep toward God by being with the pious, or warriors in the cause, or those who pray excessively. So I asked, "God, how can I reach You?" God said, "Leave your self behind and come."

And on faults, mistakes and sins I agree with Bayazid totally:

"When does a man become a man?
When he knows his own mistakes and hurries to correct them."

Meaning that you have to be able to stand for your mistakes, but not give up trying to become a better person. Like many on this forum have said before, confessing your guilt and sin and assuming forgiveness doesn't mean you don't have to strive to become a better person. On the contrary, God's forgiveness lies in your own effort to become a better person.
It's worthless if you're constantly forgiven without making the effort not to repeat your sins and mistakes.

Finally, this is meant to all people who are too much thought and too little feeling (including myself):

"Someone who seeks God through logical proof is like someone who looks for the Sun with a lamp."

truebeliever
05-08-2005, 04:51 AM
Could'nt agree more.

It's the repression of feeling that kills. If i cannot feel, i cannot have empathy. The notion..."I and the other are one"...cannot be if you cannot feel.

"What you do to the least of your bretheren you do unto me".

Trouble is...deep below, in a place we dont want to know about is a great big void. "The terror, the void, of complete loneliness".

Till you can face that you can never die.

You can go voluntarily or one can go kicking and screaming but sooner or later each of us must meet the dark night of the soul. Each of us must go deep into that metaphorical forest.

The greatest pain is to feel betrayed and abandoned. The deepest pain and the deepest wound as Christ attested.