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Draken
02-27-2005, 07:23 AM
Any comments, Ahmad? ;-)

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/islam.html">ON THE ISLAMIC TRADITION
Julius Evola, Revolt Against The Modern World</a>

Islam, which originated among the Semitic races also consisted of the Law and Tradition, regarded as a formative force, to which the Arab stocks of the origins provided a purer and nobler human material that was shaped by a warrior spirit. The Islamic law (shariah) is a divine law; its foundation, the Koran, is thought of as God's very own word (kalam Allah) as well as a nonhuman work and an "uncreated book" that exists in heaven ab eterno. Although Islam considers itself the "religion of Abraham" it is nevertheless true that (a) it claimed independence from both Judaism and Christianity; (b) the Kaaba, with its symbolism of the center, is a pre-Islamic location and has even older origins that cannot be dated accurately; (c) in the esoteric Islam tradition, the main reference point is al-Khadir, a popular figure conceived as superior to an pre-dating the biblical prophets (Koran 18:59-81). In early Islam the only form of asceticism was action, that is, jihad, or "holy war"; this type of war, at least theoretically, should never be interrupted until the full consolidation of the divine Law has been achieved. Finally, Islam presents a traditional completeness, since the shariah and the sunna, that is, the exoteric law and tradition, have their complement not in vague mysticism, but in full-fledged initiatory organizations (turuq) that are categorized by an esoteric teaching (tawil) and by the metaphysical doctrine of the Supreme Identity (tawhid). In these organizations, and in general in the shia, the recurrent notions of the masum, of the double perogative of the isma (doctrinal infallibility), and of the impossibility of being stained by any sin (which is the perogative of the leaders, the visible and invisible Imams and the mujtahid), lead back to the line of an unbroken race shaped by a tradition at a higher level than both Judaism and the religious beliefs that conquered the West.

Julius Evola
On Islam and Tradition, (Revolt Agains The Modern World, pages 243 - 244)

Even though it began relatively recently, I will briefly refer to another tradition, Islam, which originated among the Semitic races and succeeded in overcoming those negative motifs. As in the case of priestly Judaism, the center in Islam also consisted on the Law and Tradition, regarded as a formative force, to which the Arab stocks of the origins provided a purer and nobler human material that was shaped by a warrior spirit. The Islamic law (shariah) is a divine law; its foundation, the Koran, is thought of as God's very own word (kalam Allah) as well as a nonhuman work and an "uncreated book" that exists in heaven ab eterno. Although Islam considers itself the "religion of Abraham", even to the point of attributing to him the foundation of the Kaaba (in which we find again the theme of the "stone", or the symbol of the "center"), it is nevertheless true that (a) it claimed independence from both Judaism and Christianity; (b) the Kaaba, with its symbolism of the center, is a pre-Islamic location and has even older origins that cannot be dated accurately; (c) in the esoteric Islam tradition, the main reference point is al-Khadir, a popular figure conceived as superior to an pre-dating the biblical prophets (Koran 18:59-81). Islam rejects a theme found in Judaism and that in Christianity became the dogma and the basis fof the mystery of the incantation of the Logos; it retains, sensibly attenuated, the myth of Adam's fall without building upon it the theme of "original sin". In this doctrine Islam saw a "diabolical illusion" (talbis Iblis) or the inverted theme of the fall of Satan (Iblis or Shaitan), which the Koran (18:48) attributed to his refusal, together with all his angels, to bow down before Adam. Islam also not only rejected the idea of a Redeemer or Savior, which is so central in Christianity, but also the mediation of a priestly caste. By conceiving the Divine in terms of an absolute and pure monotheism, without a "Son", a "Father", or a "Mother of God", every person as a Muslim appears to respond directly to God and to be sanctified through the Law, which permeates and organizes life in a radical unitary way in all of its juridicial, religious, and social ramifications. In early Islam the only form of asceticism was action, that is, jihad, or "holy war"; this type of war, at least theoretically, should never be interrupted until the full consolidation of the divine Law has been achieved. it is precisely through the holy war, and not through preaching or missionary endeavor, that Islam came to enjoy a sudden, prodigious expansion, originating the empire of the Caliphs as well as forging a unity typical of a race of the spirit, namely, the umma or "Islamic nation". Finally, Islam presents a traditional completeness, since the shariah and the sunna, that is, the exoteric law and tradition, have their complement not in vague mysticism, but in full-fledged initiatory organizations (turuq) that are categorized by an esoteric teaching (tawil) and by the metaphysical doctrine of the Supreme Identity (tawhid). In these organizations, and in general in the shia, the recurrent notions of the masum, of the double perogative of the isma (doctrinal infallibility), and of the impossibility of being stained by any sin (which is the perogative of the leaders, the visible and invisible Imams and the mujtahid), lead back to the line of an unbroken race shaped by a tradition at a higher level than both Judaism and the religious beliefs that conquered the West.

Ahmad
02-27-2005, 09:09 AM
Peace,

1-"Although Islam considers itself the "religion of Abraham" it is nevertheless true that (a) it claimed independence from both Judaism and Christianity"

The three main religions actually are offshoots of the same one religion, "Submission", the creed of Abraham. What happened is that eventhough each was just a stage in a continous message culminating in Muhammaad and Quran, each of them was caught in a state of arrested development, in which it claimed to be the "best", "complete", "chosen" religion, which is ofcourse not true, Satan wants to devide and rule.


2-"(b) the Kaaba, with its symbolism of the center, is a pre-Islamic location and has even older origins that cannot be dated accurately"

The shrine of God at Mecca was built by Abraham and his son Ismail according to God's instructions, it was to serve as a focal point, gathering all humanity around one center, one god. However as i said before all the three main religions disregarded it, even "Islam", since they have built another shrine for Muhammad (at Medina) which is a flagrant act of idol-worship (setting up partners with the one creator), the king of Saudi Arabia is even called, "the servant of the two holy mosques", when in Quran God mentiones only one!


3-"(c) in the esoteric Islam tradition, the main reference point is al-Khadir, a popular figure conceived as superior to an pre-dating the biblical prophets (Koran 18:59-81)."


There is no "esoteric" aspect of "Submission". The religion is clear and simple, what i believe to had happened, is that Satan divided the "Muslims" into "Sufis" and "Sunni. Wahabbi. Shi'a", all of them are fighting!. Sufis say "AlKhidr" whom Moses asked to teach him, is the first "Sufi" who is "BETTER" than the prophets, while the "Sunni" say Muhammad is the "BEST" prophet, the Shi'a say "Ali" (Muhammad's cousin) is the "BEST" !?, again (God+ an idol), the human factor is what corrupted the one religion into different disputing religions, (Judaism-Talmudic Rabbis, Christianity-Jesus, Sufi-saints, Sunni-Muhammad, Shi'a-Ali+Hussayn+saints).
Submission is clear and simple, God alone. No mysteries at all.


4-"In early Islam the only form of asceticism was action, that is, jihad, or "holy war"; this type of war, at least theoretically, should never be interrupted until the full consolidation of the divine Law has been achieved"

In Submission, there is no form of asceticism, or even "holy war"!. This idea crept into "Submission" after Muhammad, Jihad mentioned in Quran means "to strive", to resist temptations, to say No to your sinful lusts..etc.

The Jihadists in order to satisfy their violent nature, used the unauthorized "Hadith" books to justify their evil acts. However in Quran war is allowed only in two cases, self defense or to eliminate oppression, along with strict warnings against agression, only equitable requital is allowed.


5-"Finally, Islam presents a traditional completeness, since the shariah and the sunna, that is, the exoteric law and tradition, have their complement not in vague mysticism, but in full-fledged initiatory organizations (turuq) that are categorized by an esoteric teaching (tawil) and by the metaphysical doctrine of the Supreme Identity (tawhid)."


These are but satanic inovations, same like the Talmoud that Satan developed to rival God's word (Torah), he authored these books and developed the many ways (Turuq) to devide the one religion and then rule over the strayers. In Submission though we have only one law, elucidated in Quran, the final testament to all humanity, the book that ironically has been abandoned en mass by the "muslims" in favor of "Hadith".


6-"In these organizations, and in general in the shia, the recurrent notions of the masum, of the double perogative of the isma (doctrinal infallibility), and of the impossibility of being stained by any sin (which is the perogative of the leaders, the visible and invisible Imams and the mujtahid),"

Just reflect on the above for a minute! who invented the idea of a "superior" race ? none but Satan. in Submission, all creatures are equal. Making distinction between God's prophets (saints..etc) is against the very idea of "God alone", since it raises some of God's creation into a level rivaling Him.

Ultimately we are all humans, even Jesus, Muhammad and Mary, nobody is infallible. The idea of "infallibility" comes from Satan in his way to dupe us to idolize mere mortals and distract us from God.

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."


7-"Finally, Islam presents a traditional completeness, since the shariah and the sunna, that is, the exoteric law and tradition"

Here lies the whole problem with the modern "Islam" which has been subverted to a great extent. Submission has only one source of law, which is Quran, the updated final version of the scripture (previous versions were the Torah and the Gospels). The book has a built in miracle (www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html) that guards every letter against being distorted.

[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.


The "muslims" unfortunately have accepted a second source of law in clear opposition to God and His Quran. The above verse alone is enough to refute the thousands of pages called "Hadith", the source of all evil in the Islamic world.

Oneday soon God willing, the Satanic dogma of Talmoud, Christian traditions, Hadith, Sufi books, will vanish and God's final word, Quran will take over.

[9:33] He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

nomad
02-27-2005, 09:50 AM
Ahmad how would you explain the fact Islam

has not contributed anything in the last

few centuries to technological advancement ?

Ahmad
02-27-2005, 10:11 AM
Peace Nomad,


The early Muslims (Submitters) actually laid the foundaition for almost every field of knowledge we know nowadays. However parallel to the corruption of the religion (Developement of "Hadith" books 200 years after Muhammad's death) the spirit of research started to fade since all matters have been settled by the religious scholars and their interpretation of the Hadith books (never Quran).

In Submission (the original creed of Abraham) we live and die for God, therefore all aspects of life are dealt with in that spirit. The early Submitter scientists didn't do their research seeking profit or fame, their only goal was to gain more appreciation of God (to know God more thus draw nearer to Him) through discovering the perfect harmony in His creation, being it the human body, outer space, the earth, ...etc

When the "Muslims" accepted and depended on their religious scholars, they forfeited their free will along with it, since no more did they need to choose when the scholars have developed complete books dividing all actions into lists of "Halaal & Haraam" (Right and wrong), e.g: on the Arab satallite channels or in the newspaper's religious columns, you may find questions like: is it "Halaal" to sleep on the left side ?

What do you expect from such hypocrites who surrendered to their rulers and scholars, who sold their brains to Satan, who refuse to answer the test for themselves. Quran urges us to reflect and ponder upon God's creation and signs, to be active not passive. Apathy is condemned in Quran, yet it is the dominant state of mind in the muslim countries now.

Would that mean that the developed nations know God better? God says that no matter how advanced or how good are your works, without being God-centered, they simply don't count.

I assure you that a true submitter nation would be number one in all aspects of life, as per God's promise of Victory for the Submitters.

nomad
02-27-2005, 02:45 PM
Thanks Ahmad ... I find it difficult to listen

to any creed that is technologically brain

dead ... after all wouldn't those that know the

true God understand and master over his creation

better ?

Draken
02-28-2005, 01:00 AM
What about a creed that masters technology and understands it so well that they actually DON'T implement everything they COULD implement - just for the sake of technology, because they know it's destructive?

Draken
10-02-2005, 07:09 AM
Here is an interesting excerpt from a <a href="http://english.pravda.ru/columnists/2002/05/25/29275.html">summary by Troy Southgate</a> of Evola's book Men Among the Ruins: Post-War Reflections of a Radical Traditionalist.


10. TRADITION - CATHOLICISM - GHIBELLINISM

"Catholicism is perceived by many to be the pinnacle of Tradition. Evola accepts that it contains many Traditional aspects, but goes on to say that in order to be seen as a legitimate form of authority and sovereignty it must become fully integrated within the sphere of Tradition itself. Catholicism alone is inadequate and represents only a minimal current of a far wider Tradition. Here, Evola opts to discuss the implications of this fact in both a political and contemporary context, despite using examples from the past.

"Religion falls into various categories and cannot match the supreme and unitary nature of Tradition. In fact religion is simply an exoteric version of a deeper, esoteric undercurrent. Christianity, for example, panders to the masses, whilst Tradition is reserved for the spiritual elite: "In effect, nobody with a higher education can really believe in the axiom 'There is no salvation outside the Church' (nulla salus extra ecclesiam), meaning the great civilisations that have preceded Christianity (the still-existing millennia-old non-European traditions, such as Buddhism and Hinduism, and even relatively recent ones such as Islam) have not known the supernatural or the sacred, but only distorted images and obscure 'prefigurations' and that they amount to mere 'paganism', polytheism, and 'natural mysticism'." This statement would undoubtedly arouse in the more "traditional" Catholic a feeling of revulsion and anger, perhaps even accusations of "ecumenicalism." However, Evola is not advocating the unification of all religions, but the acceptance that there is a common Tradition which lies in each. He goes on to say that for a Catholic "to persist in the sectarian and dogmatic exclusivism about this matter would amount to being in the same predicament of one who wished to defend the views of physics and astronomy found in the Old Testament, which have been made obsolete by the current state of knowledge on these matters." Catholicism, then, is only "traditional" in the sense that certain aspects tend to accord with Tradition itself. The same can be said of Islam or Judaism."

Draken
10-02-2005, 07:29 AM
Excerpt from the same summary by Troy Southgate as in the previous post.

<a href="http://english.pravda.ru/columnists/2002/05/29/29483.html">THE WEAPONS OF THE OCCULT WAR</a>

Using some of Rene Guenon’s ideas, Evola now attempts to examine some of the methods which are used by the global subversives. Firstly, "scientific suggestion" is used in order to explain history purely in terms of key events being influenced by political, social or economic factors. Secondly, whenever the first method becomes impossible the hidden forces decide to use the "tactic of replacement" instead. This involves the dissemination of certain philosophical ideas which can be used as a diversion for those events which defy a positivist explanation. It functions as a means of preventing the intellectuals from understanding the true nature of what is really going on in the world. This leads us towards the third strategic category: the "tactic of counterfeits." This latter stage is essentially designed to explain away those factors of the conspiracy which unavoidably find their way into the mainstream and cause a backlash. This development, according to Evola, can often take the form of a Traditional reaction to the degeneration of society, although the occult powers then use terms such as "anachronism," "anti-history," "immobilism" and "regression" in order to counteract this process and thus prevent their enemies from winning popular support.

The fourth ploy is the "tactic of inversion," in which the enemy concentrates its efforts on attacking the spiritual realm: "After limiting the influence that could be exercised in this regard by Christianity, through the spread of materialism and scientism, the forces of global subversion have endeavoured to conveniently divert any tendency towards the supernatural arising outside the dominant religion and the limitation of its dogmas." This means that the individual is encouraged to lose him or herself in shallow distractions such as psychology and spiritualism, rather than try to advance in a truly superior and supernatural way. Evola criticises the West’s distorted analysis of Eastern mysticism, and the fact that the traditional wisdom of the Orient has often been repackaged within Masonry or Theosophy and forcibly reconciled with Western values. And, due to this process of dilution, it has been easily torn to shreds by the secret denizens of the conspiracy and thus laughably rejected as pure superstition. Another method is the "tactic of ricochet," through which those sympathetic to Tradition are falsely assured that by attacking the remaining traditionalist structures they are somehow advancing their own cause: "Those who do not realise what is going on and who, because of material interests, attack Tradition in like-minded people sooner or later must expect to see Tradition attacked in themselves, by ricochet." Modern States, of course, use infiltration in order to sow the seeds of ideological discord. This can lead to personality clashes, greed and self-advancement at the expense of the very Idea itself.

The sixth category is the "scapegoat tactic," which results in the targeting of individuals or groups which usually turn out to be mostly blameless. The Protocols, for example, may seem fairly accurate when it comes to identifying the Masons and the Jews as the source of all our problems, but to scapegoat people to this extent is misleading and unrealistic. The next step - the "tactic of dilution" - relates to the use of nationalism as a means of bringing people down to a common level, rather than of restoring true perspective and hierarchy. This process "dilutes" the Traditional components inherent within nationalistic ideas and redirects them in accordance with the objectives of the secret powers. One method is the way in which revolutionary nationalists have eroded all traces of that which preceded their ascending to power, thus helping to bring down the final vestiges of Tradition. Using an example from the psychoanalytical sphere, Evola tells us that "[a]mong those who are capable of a healthy discernment there has been a reaction against the coarsest forms of this pseudo-science, which correspond to pure or ‘orthodox’ Freudianism. The tactic of dilution was employed again; the formulation and spread of a spiritualised psychoanalysis for more refined tastes was furthered. The result was that those who react against Freud and his disciples no longer do so against Jung, without realising that what is at work here is the same inversion, though in a more dangerous form because it is subtler, and a contaminating exegesis ventures more decidedly into the domain of spirituality than in the case of Freud."

The next tactic is the "deliberate misidentification of a principle with its representatives." In other words, confusing an idea or a principle with those purporting to represent or advance it. This leads to the defilement or devaluation of the idea itself. Evola’s final evaluation of subversive tactics examines the concept of "replacing infiltrations." This is when an idea or an institution has degenerated so much that it becomes unrecognisable. One thinks of the comparative emptiness of Grand Lodge Masonry when compared to its Grand Orient rival, or the Church of England’s systematic take-over by the organised homosexual lobby: "These forces, while leaving the appearances unchanged, use the organisation for totally different purposes, which at times may even be the opposite of those that were originally its own."

Evola’s solution to this multifarious problem involves a Traditionalist awakening during which its most devoted adherents realise the extent to which the battle is being waged on the occult plane. However, he also accepts that we do not presently have the men capable of fighting this disease.

truebeliever
10-02-2005, 08:14 AM
What about a creed that masters technology and understands it so well that they actually DON'T implement everything they COULD implement - just for the sake of technology, because they know it's destructive?

"You were so busy seeing if you could, you forgot to ask if you should". Jurassic Park.

igwt
10-05-2005, 02:23 PM
What do you think about the following?

Insider
User ID: 13
9/24/2005
8:21 pm EDT Re: I am a member of an Elite Family who you despise...ask me a question

What is your religious affiliation?

Religion is created by "us".
The religions which rule now are the ones that are under total control.
I can´t give out to much about this but Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism are a bit off, let´s say.
There is a core of truth, but it is drowning in a sea of perversions....for you to pick out, good luck.

What we believe in does not matter but it is about serving the Divine Law which was passed onto us.

this
10-05-2005, 05:52 PM
by Draken on 2005/2/27 22:00:34

What about a creed that masters technology and understands it so well that they actually DON'T implement everything they COULD implement - just for the sake of technology, because they know it's destructive?


Now you're talkin' Drak

But that gets into why we screw up when we know better. Politics, corruption, conspiracy, crime etc. Technology is not our weakest link/stumbling block. Morals are.

Draken
10-06-2005, 01:20 AM
What do you think about the following?

Insider
User ID: 13
9/24/2005
8:21 pm EDT Re: I am a member of an Elite Family who you despise...ask me a question

What is your religious affiliation?

Religion is created by "us".
The religions which rule now are the ones that are under total control.
I can´t give out to much about this but Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism are a bit off, let´s say.
There is a core of truth, but it is drowning in a sea of perversions....for you to pick out, good luck.

What we believe in does not matter but it is about serving the Divine Law which was passed onto us.


Well, I don't have any problems with it, really.

If you judge it as if written by any anonymous person on the net forums - which this person actually is - the only thing to make it less "controversial" is to substitute 'us' and 'we' with 'them' and 'they'. Suddenly, it all sounds very familiar "conspiracy kook" talk. Anyway, who can seriously question the statement that "there is a core of truth, but it is drowning in a sea of perversions" these days?
So what I'm saying I guess, is that I agree.

Like I said before, I think that religions have an identical core which is univeral, with an outer shell that appears to differ from eachother, hiding the true nature and identity of the core.

If you look at a pyramid and picture it being built from the top, you have a point of convergence of all the four sides, from which these sides "emanate" - they are united and melted into eachother at the top. The further down one side you get, the further away you get from the other three sides. You can't climb down more than one side, you have to pick one and start the climb. When you pass a certain point you lose sight of the other sides; they become irrelevant to you and finally it's as if they didn't even exist.

Now, with this image in mind, if you instead of climbing from the top DOWN climb from the bottom UPWARDS, which is the direction toward God, you get the imagery of Man striving for the reunification with God. The higher up you get, the more you start to be aware of the other sides of the pyramid...

As for the authenticity of "Insider"; does it matter that the authenticity of the Protocols haven't been conclusively proven? No, since looking around and seeing the agenda of the Protocols implemented successfully all over the world proves the CONTENT to be TRUE. So it doesn't matter WHO wrote it, if what is written is the TRUTH.
Same with "Insider".

Of course, everyone will judge according to their own, relative "version" of the truth.

igwt
10-06-2005, 01:21 AM
this wrote:
by Draken on 2005/2/27 22:00:34

What about a creed that masters technology and understands it so well that they actually DON'T implement everything they COULD implement - just for the sake of technology, because they know it's destructive?


Now you're talkin' Drak

But that gets into why we screw up when we know better. Politics, corruption, conspiracy, crime etc. Technology is not our weakest link/stumbling block. Morals are.

Spoken by a true Luddite 8-)

truebeliever
10-06-2005, 01:41 AM
DRAK my friend...

Like I said before, I think that religions have an identical core which is univeral, with an outer shell that appears to differ from each other, hiding the true nature and identity of the core.

I agree, but...Christ was quite SPECIFIC according to John, Luke, Mathew and John. There are specific instructions. There is no la de da about it. One can either choose to believe or admit they are reading into it what they want.

Christianity is more than simple rules for living. It is specific instructions from God on what God expects from us and God was even kind enough to come on down and show us how it's done.

Apart from the eternal core...there is nothing in common with the Eastern religions which have developed out of a completely different milue of a completely "undifferentiated" people.

For the Easterner...he wants liberation from "the vale of tears". He wants to return to the Garden Of Eden.

The Westerner must taste it once then wave goodbye. Then install Gods Divine Law on Earth. Earth is a great place to be and God laboured to put us here. He does not want us leaving prematurely and that is where the Eastern religions are in fact infantile and regressive. That is not an insult...it is simply a statement of fact. They want to leave this world. Christ/God wants us to love it here and install a Kingdom of Justice and peace upon it.

Even Ghandi knew Western Civilization "might be a good idea".

I see nothing to write home about in the East...they live in filth.

I understand where you're coming from.

Draken
10-06-2005, 01:57 AM
A quote from the man who inspired this thread is in order:

"The peoples of the West are so inured to the religion that has come to predominate in their countries that they consider it as a kind of unit of measure and as a model for every other religion: they are near denying the dignity of true religion to any concept of the supersensory and to man's relationship to it, when the concept in any way differs from the Judeo-Christian type ... But, indeed, this attitude should be reversed: and just as "modern" civilization is an anomaly when compared with what has always been true civilization*, so the significance and value of the Christian religion should be measured according to that part of its content that is consonant with a vaster, more Aryan, and more primordial concept of the supersensory."

* He refers here to the two works by Guénon, "East and West" and "The Crisis of the Modern World".

Nose_Hair
10-06-2005, 04:20 AM
truebeliever wrote:

For the Easterner...he wants liberation from "the vale of tears". He wants to return to the Garden Of Eden.

The Westerner must taste it once then wave goodbye. Then install Gods Divine Law on Earth. Earth is a great place to be and God laboured to put us here. He does not want us leaving prematurely and that is where the Eastern religions are in fact infantile and regressive. That is not an insult...it is simply a statement of fact. They want to leave this world. Christ/God wants us to love it here and install a Kingdom of Justice and peace upon it.

Even Ghandi knew Western Civilization "might be a good idea".

I see nothing to write home about in the East...they live in filth.

I understand where you're coming from.

It is not that general.

I think you are speaking from a heavily Protestant perspective. I've been raised around Catholics and the prevailing attitude has been "F**k this world, for there's heaven (post-Garden-of-Eden Eden).

The East is not as escapist as you think. The difference lies in the acceptance of Reincarnation. With each life-cycle you're supposed to make the world a better place for those who remain, or else the karma will come back at you. Whereas in Christianity you have one-shot, and all the responsibilities and gifts belong to you.

The Eastern concept of Nirvana describes more a state of being than an actual place. The "Fall of Man" is more a Western concept than an eastern one, hence Nirvana is not a returning to a "Garden", but more an ascension into something greater.

Draken
10-06-2005, 04:30 AM
Nose_Hair wrote: The Eastern concept of Nirvana describes more a state of being than an actual place.

This is crucial. I have no time to elaborate now, just want to add that the concept of Nirvana is a composite of 'vana' and the negation of that, i.e. 'nir'. 'Vana' is equivalent to "illusion" or similar concepts, therefore 'nirvana' is a "negation of illusion".

It has to do with a state of MIND, as well as a state of being.

I'll come back to this when I have more time.

Draken
10-06-2005, 06:22 AM
I have to correct myself:

the term 'vana' corresponds to 'craving' and 'attachment', as in craving worldly things and being attached to worldly things. Hence, 'nirvana' is non-attachment, i.e. detachment from the world and non-craving, meaning having rid oneself from the manias of material things and wants.

Thus, Nose Hair is correct when pointing out that it is not a "place" one goes when acheived - like the Christian concept of the garden of Eden - but a higher state of mind.

This detachment is of course not at all a fatalistic, pessimistic withdrawal from the evils of the world; longing away from it to a "glorious other world". That's a typically Western misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Rather, it is a state of mind that is a change to a higher consciousness which fundamentally changes the attitude towards that material, temporal world and, crucially, focuses on the superreal and transcendental, and ultimately higher, superior and more relevant realities in which we exist simultaneously.

freeman
10-06-2005, 07:23 AM
This detachment is of course not at all a fatalistic, pessimistic withdrawal from the evils of the world; longing away from it to a "glorious other world". That's a typically Western misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Rather, it is a state of mind that is a change to a higher consciousness which fundamentally changes the attitude towards that material, temporal world and, crucially, focuses on the superreal and transcendental, and ultimately higher, superior and more relevant realities in which we exist simultaneously.

That's all well and good, Drak, but the next time some young lady in tie-dyed T-shirt, frayed jeans and earth sandals holds up the entire epxress line at the local supermarket while she meditates on nirvana to resolve the dilemma that she is $1.23 short on the carton of herbal tea she is attempting to purchase, I may still indulge some more of that typical Western misunderstanding... :-o

truebeliever
10-06-2005, 10:22 AM
Christ speaks loud and clear to me. I have also DEEPLY experienced the divine. Down as LOW and as HIGH as you can go.

I have delved deeply into the East and it is for an undifferentiated consciousness. A child. Passive and ineffectual.

Enjoy it. There's work to do here however and i will join up with FREEMAN on that point.

I know well the Westerner running for his life from the "Dark Night Of The Soul"...scared shitless to take up his cross. Hoping to avoid this vale of tears and the misery of his torment via the intellectual gymnastics of the East.

Some pick up their cross and some just like to look at it...pondering it's reality.

It's simply not my way and will never be.

Draken
10-06-2005, 10:59 AM
I have no problem with that, true.

Different spiritual races need different spiritual tools, that's the way I see it.

Hopefully we'll all see eachother at the other end, which is the same goal for all of us.

Truth, Beauty, Love!

Draken
10-06-2005, 12:49 PM
...and I thought the most important thing to you was the salvation of your soul, freeman - silly me.:lol:

freeman
10-06-2005, 01:41 PM
...and I thought the most important thing to you was the salvation of your soul, freeman - silly me.

You've still got me ruminating over this Divince Right to Rule concept...don't worry, we'll talk about it again soon. :-)

Draken
10-06-2005, 02:05 PM
Looking forward to it!!!