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truebeliever
10-09-2006, 07:34 AM
I think people have been conned over Christ as some sort of wussy new age flake...lovey dovey, kiss, kiss, i am so precious, floppy doll.

Time and again Christ kicks ass. Christ says things like..."if any man lay a finger on the hair of these little ones, it would be better that a millstone be tied around his neck and thrown in the ocean"...does that sound like a kissy, kissy, love no matter what evil scum do in this world? To forgive...constantly? Christ CONTINUALLY says..."woe unto thee who..." put in the evil action.

See what the Orthodox Christian Churches have to say about Christ. Christ as new age flake? No...Christ as iron rod setting the record straight and yet adding that one find forgiveness for people that..."know not what they do". When you are evil you are gotton rid of. Simple. If you cant repent when you commit major evil...when you do not have the capacity for reflection...then i will pull the trigger. Quite literally and feel quite right calling myself a "Christian". The Catholic Church and and it's various offshoots are responsible for portraying Christ as a wet rag in the face of evil.

Their is too much NEW and not enough OLD in the Testament teaching. One balances the other.

All one has to do is read the Gospels and draw the obvious conclusions. Because the Churches have regressed into a form of narcisistic contemplation like "meditation", we see OTHER institutions taking over the role it was obviously meant to have...namely the secret societies like Masonry and various socialist/communist movements. As Hitler said...Communism is simply Christianity. Just read "Acts" where followers of the Apostles give up their possessions to "common property" and live together. It's seeded throught the post Gospel New Testament.

Because people are HUNGRY for God they go EVERYWHERE but the Churches who give you ZERO tools to do the job! Their is NO Bible quote saying you cannot use Astrology to understand yourself and your place in the Universe. Where in the Bible does it say to avoid dreamwork? If Christ did'nt say it...i aint listening.

Till the Christian Faiths commence use of astrology, dreamwork, kinesiology and ALL the so called "alternative" remedy's for making life better, we will see themselves, making themselves, SOOO irrelevant they will cease to exist. Instead of Catholic pedophiles burning home remedy makers at the stake for witch craft we could have see a continuation of the Churches role of central point of salvation for the mind/body/spirit of man/woman.

But! They ARE catching on. At least here in Oz. The Churches are whining that they have become "too secular" and have lost the fight in the "values" stakes. Really? Well fancy that! So now the heads of the various faiths are screaming at the local outlet for the economic rationalist mad men who want us as simple "cogs in the machine". Now they have decided to strike and none to soon. Hopefully we will see a mass migration of the faithful BACK to the pulpit when we see a reinvigorated Church addressing the IMMEDIATE psycho/social/physical/spiritual needs of the common people and not sitting back like pathetic left leaning tamborine playing hippy's throwing flowers instead of the fire and brimstone needed to set straight the wrongs of this world.

I feel much better now.

truebeliever
10-09-2006, 09:05 AM
So, the limp wristed Left has finally worked out that keeping the worst of Commie Doctrine hanging about like a bad smell is not good for votes.

At last...the Christian Socialists have decided to admit that meantioning "God" and "values" might be a vote getter.

Also...getting out in the street and commiting the word "secularism" to the garbage bin has finally caught hold in the party of "useful idiots".

Keven Rudd speaks out like a homo in a straight mine workers bar that he is indeed a "bent" Christian. I sorta like the guy but like all pollies he is constrained by party politics. He's been a Christian for a long time...first I heard of it unless he thinks telepathic powers are common place. Thanks for telling us Kev.

http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/__data/page/6859/kevin_rudd.jpg

Unlike the satanist Bush...Kevvy is ACTUALLY a Christian and it seems all the work by grass roots activists is paying off.

Enjoy this "Quicktime" audio I recorded off the telly a week ago, using my phone so I hope the quality is alright.

This is WELL WORTH listening to as Christians get off their fat lazy backsides and get out there on the values battlefield.

Audio Interview With Kevin Rudd. (http://www.members.westnet.com.au/b.bear/Interview With Kevin Rudd.amr)

Rudd's unholy row
When Labor's foreign affairs spokesman begins a debate on church and state relations, he can expect to provoke a sharp response, says religious affairs writer Jill Rowbotham

October 07, 2006
KEVIN Rudd has been somewhat perplexed about the splash his essay Faith in Politics, just published in The Monthly, has been making in the national press.

It's easy to see why. As he tells Inquirer: "I have been banging on about this stuff for two years, I have delivered multiple speeches, most of which have been fairly widely distributed."

It is true that anyone who has followed the Labor foreign affairs spokesman's record on this topic knows that, given half a chance, he will do the following things: talk about his hero, Dietrich Bonhoeffer; advance his theory on the five kinds of Christian politicians and how they plead for votes; and stick the boot into the Howard Government.

In The Monthly article he did all three, starting with a celebration of the centenary of the German theologian's birth, recapping his courageous resistance to the Nazis and his execution by them; then moving on to attack politicians who cynically use their faith to garner support, and finally to argue for the importance of social justice.

For Rudd, it was a continuation of a campaign begun after the previous federal election, when he was among those horrified by the success of Family First and what he saw as the rise of the Christian Right. Since then he has been further disquieted by what he regards as the infiltration of the NSW Liberal Party by right-wing Christian extremists and the unclear relationship between the conservative side of politics and the Exclusive Brethren.

So he has been pushing one simple theme, which is at the heart of his new essay: Christians have more options than voting conservative. During the week, despite complex dissection of his essay across the media , he returned consistently to that message.

"I am concerned about the political manipulation of evangelical and Pentecostal Christians by the Liberals, the Nationals and Family First," he says.

His essay argued for the importance of the social gospel, which tries to create and maintain a just society, as well as the spiritual gospel, with its emphasis on personal salvation, which among some Christians includes an adherence to a strict code of conservative morality.

Its attack on John Howard's politics took in issues including the industrial relations changes last year, world poverty, asylum-seekers and global warming.

Many others have bought into the debate over church and state relations and someone such as Rudd can't dish up opinions without provoking response. But for some there were glaring omissions and faulty premises. One that raised eyebrows was his view on "so-called Christian morals".

"I see very little evidence that this preoccupation with sexual morality is consistent with the spirit and content of the gospels," Rudd wrote. "For example, there is no evidence of Jesus of Nazareth expressly preaching against homosexuality. In contrast, there is considerable evidence of the Nazarene preaching against poverty and the indifference of the rich."

His article did not mention abortion, euthanasia or stem cell research - what he calls the "life issues" - but he describes himself as generally conservative in relation to them, despite voting in favour of making the abortifacient RU486 available in Australia.

Catholic Archbishop of Canberra and Goulburn Mark Coleridge finds fault with the way Rudd distinguished the private and public worlds.

"I think it's a mistake to relegate issues like abortion and euthanasia as strictly for private consideration because they are, in fact, issues that have huge implications at the social level and in that sense they are public issues," Coleridge says. "Mistaken and possibly pernicious.

"Kevin Rudd talks about the need to speak up for and defend the weak and voiceless. I would ask, who is weaker or more voiceless than the unborn child or the old frail person who is close to death?

"And you just cannot talk about issues of distributive justice in isolation because issues like abortion are part of the same garment of social concern."

Rudd tells Inquirer: "I'm seeking to be a clear voice of progressive Christianity from the social justice tradition and a passionate critic of right-wing Christian extremism, which is a danger to our democracy. The church historically has spoken out on the life issues. I'm concerned about a dulling of the clarion call on the social justice issues in the last decade or so."

Australian Christian Lobby managing director Jim Wallace also takes issue with Rudd on the tension between the spiritual and social gospels, while noting his basic agreement with the essay.

"I believe the core issues are, for example, not the environment, but really the core issue is the spiritual gospel because then people are changed and hopefully the social gospel will follow," Wallace says.

Coleridge has a bone to pick with Rudd and others who focus the discussion on individual Christians in public life. "From the Catholic point of view it's also about the church as a community engaging in the public domain, so I think that aspect has been overlooked," he says.

But he dismisses suggestions Rudd may be wandering dangerously close to the liberation theology of which John Paul II so vehemently disapproved.

"It can sound like liberation theology but the roots of the social gospel go back far longer than that," Coleridge says. He is more concerned with Rudd's proposition in the essay that "Christianity must always take the side of the marginalised, the vulnerable and oppressed".

"I would question the sense of antagonism he implies when he talks about the need for Christians to take sides with the marginalised," Coleridge says. "It can imply a kind of class warfare Christianity can never subscribe to."

The Anglican Bishop to the Australian Defence Force, Tom Frame, also finds this difficult, arguing the church is not "intended to be a means by which the voiceless and powerless are heard and find strength".

"The church is called to proclaim the kingdom of God in which all relationships are transformed by the example of Christ," Frame says. "This will have implications for those who are the victims of avarice and greed, exploitation and oppression. But they are by-products rather than objectives of fidelity to Christ."

Frame also accuses Rudd of embodying what he set out to chastise: the alignment of religious convictions with political ideology. "I found it very difficult to discern when Mr Rudd was exercising his religious convictions and when he was simply damning his political opponents," Frame says. "He seemed to be implying that any Christian with a conscience could not possibly vote for Mr Howard and the Coalition because they were plainly, in his view, guilty of unconscionable behaviour."

Wallace observes, in forgiving spirit: "Christian politicians on the Right and Left do have a blind spot in relation to the other side of politics."

Baptist pastor and World Vision chief executive Tim Costello, a well known adherent to the social justice gospel, praises Rudd's use of the example of Bonhoeffer, which he says confronts the Christian with the question: "Can I just go on living my faith and not get involved in politics?" What is crucial, Costello says, is "that question of faith having to take form in engagement".

He says Rudd is right to try to correct any impression that the conservative parties are the natural home of Christian voters. "That the Labor Party, if anything, has become identified as the secular party is almost a misunderstanding," he says.

Source (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20536152-28737,00.html)

Kevin Rudds Webpage (http://www.kevinrudd.com/default.asp)

Canberra Archbishop praises Rudd's Christian essay

The Archbishop of Canberra and Goulburn, Mark Coleridge, who has spoken out on the role of Christianity in politics, has praised a new essay by Shadow Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd which called upon the churches to take a more active role in politics.

http://www.cathnews.com/news/610/images/4_story.jpg

In an essay published in the October issue of The Monthly magazine, Mr Rudd invites churches to "fearlessly speak truth to the state", and especially in calling the Howard Government to account.

"I think it's a sign the Labor Party has realised the radical separation between religion and politics, church and state is unworkable and unrealistic," Archbishop Coleridge (pictured) said, according to The Australian.

"The church has to be deeply engaged in the public domain but not in a partisan way."

Raised as a Catholic but now describing himself as "a Christian of no fixed denominational abode", Mr Rudd advocates an "alternative vision for Australia's future" shaped by Christian values, according to a Sydney Morning Herald report.

"For too long in this country," he told the Herald yesterday, "there's been an assumption that if you have private faith your natural destination is one of the conservative parties."

In his essay, Mr Rudd expresses his admiration for Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran pastor and theologian who resisted Hitler and who was hanged by the SS three weeks before the end of the war for complicity in the plot to assassinate Hitler.

Mr Rudd agrees with Bonhoeffer's precept that "obedience to God's will may be a religious experience but it is not an ethical one until it issues in actions that can be socially valued".

As Mr Rudd put it yesterday: "It's an uncompromising message ... that Christian ethics, unless applied to the concrete social challenges of the day, is meaningless.

"It's not OK to go to church on Sunday and be unconcerned about social justice on Monday."

Mr Rudd, who said he did not go to church yesterday but went twice the previous Sunday - "I had a double credit from last Sunday" - writes in his essay how this principle should be applied to Australian politics.

"I argue that a core, continuing principle shaping this engagement should be that Christianity, consistent with Bonhoeffer's critique in the '30s, must always take the side of the marginalised, the vulnerable and the oppressed."


Source (http://www.cathnews.com/news/610/4.php)

10-09-2006, 10:41 AM
The strangest and truly weird poster on this forum is ignt. What is this thing?

truebeliever
10-09-2006, 11:04 AM
I think it's FRA_NOTHING. Meth addict abd freak Bible quoter par excellance.

Bouncer
10-09-2006, 01:25 PM
I consider that when Jesus told us to "Love our neighbors . . ." he meant that we are to cultivate a rational and active interest in the wellness and safety of those within our power to help.

This attitude will cut through any attempt to manipulate like a hot knife through butter.

To the "Christian" media: DON'Tuse your conversion tactics and mind-control triggers on me DON'T

10-09-2006, 04:39 PM
Ignt knows a few esoteric things and the photos are sometimes spooky. Oh well, who knows, but still at least different!!!

redrat11
10-10-2006, 04:13 PM
truebeliever wrote:




Their is too much NEW and not enough OLD in the Testament teaching. One balances the other.



Because people are HUNGRY for God they go EVERYWHERE but the Churches who give you ZERO tools to do the job! Their is NO Bible quote saying you cannot use Astrology to understand yourself and your place in the Universe.

Till the Christian Faiths commence use of astrology, dreamwork, kinesiology and ALL the so called "alternative" remedy's for making life better, we will see themselves, making themselves, SOOO irrelevant they will cease to exist. Instead of Catholic pedophiles burning home remedy makers at the stake for witch craft we could have see a continuation of the Churches role of central point of salvation for the mind/body/spirit of man/woman.



WTHeck!


Well your correct that the "Christian Church" has evolved into a mass of LIBERAL WEENIES, however, I'm EXTREMELY dissapointed in your words above saying that Astrology, and other NEW AGE QUACKERY should be allowed in CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY. It most certainly is forbidden in the Holy Word of God, The BIBLE. The Old Testament is chock full of dire consequences for CHRISTIANS to avoid Satanic Aversions such as those you mentioned above. I don't know what those so called "intellectuals" you mention all the time are teaching you, but my understanding and interpretation of the Bible includes the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, Just because Jesus did'nt say anything about avoiding Satanic Aversions such as Astrology, does'nt mean they're acceptable to GOD. The Old Testament applies to modern Christianity today in many ways, Do you actaully think that all the WARNINGS GOD gave his people in the Old Testament concerning Paganism and Satanic Occultic practices such as Astrology, Divination, Numerolgy, Withcraft , are now null and void. If you do my friend, I wish you well in your "Christian Path," as for me, The Old Testament, as well as the New Testament are my GUIDE to understanding my CREATOR and my SAVIOR.

Good Luck in your "Christian Path." :-)

redrat11
10-10-2006, 07:05 PM
Witchcraft.....



http://bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=244

Divination...

http://bibleresources.bible.com/keywordsearchresults.php?keyword=divination&multiplemethod=all&version1=9&numpageresults=25&sortorder=bookorder

truebeliever
10-10-2006, 07:30 PM
Could you give me some direct Bible quotes on these matters? Namely warnings regarding Astrology, dream work etc...

Ta.:-)

I think you'l find their are many "roundabout" warnings regarding using the "occult" for personal power while ignoring Faith in God but as for direct warnings I have found none.

In the end if I find Astrology, dreamwork, kinesiology etc...IMMENSELY useful in getting myself aligned correctly with the "Source". Christian Faith and a humble attitude towards the Divine is required also as the temptation of power will kick in immediately one messes with a direct line to God.

The walls of the Church were put up for a reason I believe. It formed a foundation and protection from powerful forces. However...like any bird we must leave the nest sooner or later and if the Churches want people back their they must address the elephant in the living room.:-)

truebeliever
10-10-2006, 07:33 PM
Just regarding posting "long links" which stretch the page and make it hard to read.

If you click on the little button above the "Bold" button (looks like a chain) you can put your link into the box and even give it a name without displaying the actual full link.:-)

redrat11
10-10-2006, 08:07 PM
truebeliever wrote:
Could you give me some direct Bible quotes on these matters? Namely warnings regarding Astrology, dream work etc...

Ta.:-)

I think you'l find their are many "roundabout" warnings regarding using the "occult" for personal power while ignoring Faith in God but as for direct warnings I have found none.

In the end if I find Astrology, dreamwork, kinesiology etc...IMMENSELY useful in getting myself aligned correctly with the "Source".

The walls of the Church were put up for a reason I believe. It formed a foundation and protection from powerful forces. However...like any bird we must leave the nest sooner or later and if the Churches want people back their they must address the elephant in the living room.:-)

Interesting...


I'm digging through the Old Testament right now, Are you saying that if the Bible does'nt say anything on astrology being wicked, then it is OK?

As for direct warnings, well, what more do you want from GOD? A lightning bolt on the head! :-D
Just because GOD did'nt have humans write something down about a particular subject, does'nt mean it's ok. For example, human cloning, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything on that, yet, would you say it's ok for humans to partake in that endeavor, in other words being GOD-LIKE themselves?

If you find yourself needing a "outlet" to find more spiritual satisfaction, then that is your right, and that is your quest. As I've said, I tend to "absorb" both Testaments of the Bible, and then discern what GOD showed his followers, as to what is right and what is wrong, personally I feel that since GOD demanded that his ancient people not partake in "occultic activities" for their own benefit and safety, then ther'es no reason for me to either.

It really is a fascinating subect altogether, and I'm surely not the person to be teaching anybody anything, this is simply my "interpretation" of the Living Bible.

P.S. I can't find that button that looks like a chain you say. :-? by the way is cc experiencing problems?

redrat11
10-10-2006, 08:07 PM
truebeliever wrote:
Could you give me some direct Bible quotes on these matters? Namely warnings regarding Astrology, dream work etc...

Ta.:-)

I think you'l find their are many "roundabout" warnings regarding using the "occult" for personal power while ignoring Faith in God but as for direct warnings I have found none.

In the end if I find Astrology, dreamwork, kinesiology etc...IMMENSELY useful in getting myself aligned correctly with the "Source".

The walls of the Church were put up for a reason I believe. It formed a foundation and protection from powerful forces. However...like any bird we must leave the nest sooner or later and if the Churches want people back their they must address the elephant in the living room.:-)

Interesting...


I'm digging through the Old Testament right now, Are you saying that if the Bible does'nt say anything on astrology being wicked, then it is OK?

As for direct warnings, well, what more do you want from GOD? A lightning bolt on the head! :-D
Just because GOD did'nt have humans write something down about a particular subject, does'nt mean it's ok. For example, human cloning, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything on that, yet, would you say it's ok for humans to partake in that endeavor, in other words being GOD-LIKE themselves?

If you find yourself needing a "outlet" to find more spiritual satisfaction, then that is your right, and that is your quest. As I've said, I tend to "absorb" both Testaments of the Bible, and then discern what GOD showed his followers, as to what is right and what is wrong, personally I feel that since GOD demanded that his ancient people not partake in "occultic activities" for their own benefit and safety, then ther'es no reason for me to either.

It really is a fascinating subect altogether, and I'm surely not the person to be teaching anybody anything, this is simply my "interpretation" of the Living Bible.

P.S. I can't find that button that looks like a chain you say. :-? by the way is cc experiencing problems?

truebeliever
10-10-2006, 08:31 PM
P.S. I can't find that button that looks like a chain you say. :-? by the way is cc experiencing problems?

You see the "Bold" button? Above it is a "Size" drop down menu. Straight above that and to the left is the "Link" button.:-)

As for problems...my posts wont go to the top of the front page. A few strange things happened when I posted a heap of stuff on the NWO moves "Down Under" and especially Israeli/Jewish machinations down here.

Who knows...nothing "they" do will ever scare me off the forums. In fact it is the ultimate compliment.:-)

Just because GOD did'nt have humans write something down about a particular subject, does'nt mean it's ok. For example, human cloning, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything on that, yet, would you say it's ok for humans to partake in that endeavor, in other words being GOD-LIKE themselves?

Good point. But I cant put "Astrology" and "Human Cloning" in the same boat.

Astrology is a "tool" to know yourself and what gifts God has given you. It is NOT about predicting the future.

In the end I have my own "conscience". I have tried a disciplined appraoch to Christianity this year and found it made me quite depressed. I must "actualize" what God has given me. I have a strong desire to reform the Church and give people the tools to know God.

For some the classic Church is enough. For others more direct line to the Source is required. This must be done with the utmost reverence or demonic influence results and perhaps complete demonic possession ending in psychosis.

I have to follow my conscience whilst respecting the institutions that have been set up over 2000 years. I ask God for guidence every day...6 times a day.:-)

It really is a fascinating subect altogether, and I'm surely not the person to be teaching anybody anything, this is simply my "interpretation" of the Living Bible.

You are right to question my motives and course. It can be very dangerous. However...someone has to do it. If the Churches had this stuff integrated into their traditions then we would'nt have Freemasonry and the other occultic secret societies sprouting endless threats to humanities existence.

I am open to a changing view. In fact my view changes all the time.:-)

redrat11
10-10-2006, 09:01 PM
truebeliever wrote:


You see the "Bold" button? Above it is a "Size" drop down menu. Straight above that and to the left is the "Link" button.:-)









Astrology is a "tool" to know yourself and what gifts God has given you. It is NOT about predicting the future.



For some the classic Church is enough. For others more direct line to the Source is required. This must be done with the utmost reverence or demonic influence results and perhaps complete demonic possession ending in psychosis.





You are right to question my motives and course. It can be very dangerous. However...someone has to do it. If the Churches had this stuff integrated into their traditions then we would'nt have Freemasonry and the other occultic secret societies sprouting endless threats to humanities existence.

I am open to a changing view. In fact my view changes all the time.:-)


OOOOkkaaaay, Stupid me! I was searching my keyboard for that bold and link button you said, I just now realized it's on the screen page. :hammer: :-?

I'll say this, and provide you a link to some New AGE stuff TB. It has been my understanding of astrology to be a occult practice because I remember as a youngster when my Mom used to pay visits to a PALMREADER, It just seemed ODD even at those younger years. Now I grew up in a Catholic Environment, you know going to Catechism school and stuff, personally I enjoyed the NUNS slamming a 3ft wooden ruler on my knuckles everyday, :-? But seriously It was later in life that I grew into PROTESTANTISM Christianity that I came to understand what really are the dark forces of this world, and how Satan Decieves us. I have nothing against the Catholics, Most of them are good honest people like other denominations.

However, you have to admit, with all the info on OCCULT stuff out there, that astrology originated and evolved from OCCULT practices.

Anyway I hope you find what you seek in life.


here's some stuff, I'll avoid using those buttons you said for now,( i'm afraid I'll screw up this post)

Man should seek and accept spiritual instruction and direction directly from the spirit world.
The lure of the occult is almost always on the basis of acquiring knowledge or power. [Neil T. Anderson, The Bondage Breaker, pg. 114] We crave a knowledge that is esoteric, not normally available to the ordinary person. We want to experience a power that is spiritual and supernatural in origin. People don't seem to want to hear what God has to say, they want information and direction from someone else who "knows"; a psychic, a channeler, a palm-reader, a card-reader, Ouija boards, astrology, magic charming, automatic writing, or the spirit of a dead friend of relative. In a sense these are God-given desire, but they are intended to be fulfilled by the knowledge and power which comes from God. However, Satan is busy trying to pass off his counterfeits for God's knowledge and power as the real thing. If he can get us to accept his versions of knowledge and power, he has a foothold in our life


Check you out tommorrow TB.

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/newage01.html

Ozziecynic
10-11-2006, 06:07 AM
TB: :-?
and not sitting back like pathetic left leaning tamborine playing hippy's throwing flowers instead of the fire and brimstone needed to set straight the wrongs of this world.
YET!
church clergy banging down doors of economic rationalists
TB just to clear up your confusion Economic Rationalists are rightwingers not Leftwingers!.

As for hippies your pro alt views of astrology kinsology look pretty hippie to me!.There are rightwing hippies you know are you one of them!. :-?

truebeliever
10-11-2006, 09:44 AM
TB just to clear up your confusion Economic Rationalists are rightwingers not Leftwingers!.

No, Economic Rationalists are the last true Marxists.

EVERYTHING revolves around Dialectical Materialism and Excel Spreadsheets. Just who opened up Oz to the "free market"? Just who DESTROYED our local industry?

Bob Hawke and Keating. A Rhodes Scholar and a lefty who collected French antique clocks and wore $1000 Armani suits.

I dont know what ANY of them are!

As for other matters...You have misread my post or I have not made myself clear...I want the clergy to BREAK DOWN the door of the economic rationalists and give them a kick in the nuts or at least flog them from the Temple.

You continually take me the wrong way. Just for clarity...i beleive in a true "free market"...for all but not on the international scale.

I do not believe you make people dependant on the State, break down family and societal structures and THEN rip the rug from peoples feet leaving them tossing in the wind.

Ozziecynic
10-13-2006, 07:05 PM
:roll: :-? No, Economic Rationalists are the last true Marxists.

EVERYTHING revolves around Dialectical Materialism and Excel Spreadsheets. Just who opened up Oz to the "free market"? Just who DESTROYED our local industry?

That would be the first time i have heard them described as such!.Its not really a surprise such an absurd claim comes from you and the amount of absurd claims you make is habitual!.
However your just cc professor or yoda in your own lunch box nowhere else little more reading or even offical education may do you some favours in understanding offical ideology not some ignorant redneck improvisation!.


Bob Hawke and Keating. A Rhodes Scholar and a lefty who collected French antique clocks and wore $1000 Armani suits.
I am NOT discussing Keating or Hawke I am talking about the Liberal Party and John Howard.
The point is you claimed Howard was not an economic rationalist which is clearly false!
There is no evidence you can use to disprove this obvious fact if there is i would like to see it.Your natural petty rightwing bias blinds you to the real pushers of globalism!.
Bascially i see the present ALP in Australia simply as pissing in the pockets of the Liberal party it is no secret to most indignous poorer anglo celtics the fabians are in bed with globalism however that is not the point of my post John Howard and his liberals are!.
Some of the Liberals biggest voters are the neuvo rich asians and other upwardly mobile ethnic groups in sydney as if, they give dam about the plight of farmers or poorer white aussies in rural or regional areas.


I want the clergy to BREAK DOWN the door of the economic rationalists and give them a kick in the nuts or at least flog them from the Temple.
Well the Liberal party are certainly not going to break it down for you not even Family First or the CDP.
Face facts the rightwing no longer represents christian morality no political party could do the Bible any justice. Mankind is really interested in mankind not God thats why i dont believe in theocracy!.You put too much faith in human nature and not God by the look of it!.

You continually take me the wrong way. Just for clarity...i beleive in a true "free market"...for all but not on the international scale.
No i simply dont agree with you, there is a difference and I feel it is my place to correct you or guide your indignation if i can in the right direction!.
You cant have free trade on small scale without having it large scale! We are global economy not a commune or insular state like cuba or Iran we part of the global economy capitalism couldnt operate on nationalised or socialised model in this day age that is the fact One Nation couldnt come to terms with.

I do not believe you make people dependant on the State, break down family and societal structures and THEN rip the rug from peoples feet leaving them tossing in the wind.
People are dependent of the state right now ad that is under a liberal gov.
The facts are we live Corporatist system where governement and business big and small cooperate for the same goals there is no antagonism between the two!.I am not sure what your are struggling against TB you seem confused in many areas! :-?

10-13-2006, 08:12 PM
Although late in commenting to this post I do find this an interresting subject, I find that for myself those who are sheltered in their cities that have to many lights that they obscure the star filled night don't really see the grandeur of God, on the other hand, those who are in areas that have great star filled skies frequently have a better respect and outword relation to others, and also arnt such holy rollers that want to control others peoples thoughts.
A good church is not founded by stone block, just as its not a certainty that it is a wise church by how many people frequent there.

10-13-2006, 09:50 PM
Although I thought that I had wrote this, A good church is not founded by stone block, just as its not a certainty that it is a wise church by how many people frequent there.
Am I taking this from scripture in any way?
also does this sound familiar, a full church is not an indication of its worth.
just not sure if I'm plagerizing or not.

10-14-2006, 05:07 AM
I understand where you're all coming from. I just want to set the record straight by first defining what 'astrology' truly is... as well as what you TB specifically do with it.

as·trol·o·gy Pronunciation (-strl-j)
n.
1. The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
2. Obsolete Astronomy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Universum.jpg

Astrology is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs in which knowledge of the relative positions of celestial bodies and related information is held to be useful in understanding, interpreting, and organizing knowledge about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial events. A practitioner of astrology is called an astrologer, or, less often, an astrologist. Historically, the term mathematicus was used to denote a person proficient in astrology, astronomy, and mathematics.

Although the two fields share a common origin, modern astronomy is entirely distinct from astrology. While astronomy is the scientific study of astronomical objects and phenomena, the practice of astrology is concerned with the correlation of heavenly bodies (and measurements of the celestial sphere) with earthly and human affairs. Astrology is variously considered by its proponents to be a symbolic language, a form of art, science, or divination. Critics, including the scientific community, generally consider astrology to be a pseudoscience or superstition as it has failed empirical tests in controlled studies.

Most astrological traditions are based on the relative positions and movements of various real or construed celestial bodies and on the construction of celestial patterns as seen at the time and place of the event being studied. These are chiefly the Sun, Moon, the planets, the stars and the lunar nodes. The calculations performed in casting a horoscope involve arithmetic and simple geometry which serve to locate the apparent position of heavenly bodies on desired dates and times based on astronomical tables. The frame of reference for such apparent positions is defined by the tropical or sidereal zodiacal signs on one hand, and by the local horizon (ascendant) and midheaven (medium coeli) on the other. This latter (local) frame is typically further divided into the twelve astrological houses.

The origins of much of astrology that would later develop in Asia, Europe, and the Middle East are found among the ancient Babylonians and their system of celestial omens that began to be compiled around the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE. This system of celestial omens later spread either directly or indirectly through the Babylonians to other areas such as India, China, and Greece where it merged with pre-existing indigenous forms of astrology. This Babylonian astrology came to Greece initially as early as the middle of the 4th century BCE, and then around the late 2nd or early 1st century BCE after the Alexandrian conquests, this Babylonian astrology was mixed with the Egyptian tradition of Decanic astrology to create horoscopic astrology. This new form of astrology, which appears to have originated in Alexandrian Egypt, quickly spread across the ancient world into Europe, the Middle East and India.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Cellarius_ptolemaic_system.jpg/717px-Cellarius_ptolemaic_system.jpg

Consider also the related topics;

* Age of Aquarius
* Ascending planet
* Astrological age
* Astrological associations
* Astrological degrees
* Astrological symbol
* Astrology and astronomy
* Astrology and computers
* Astrology and numerology
* Domicile
* House (astrology)
* Katarche
* List of magical terms and traditions

* Lunation
* The Mars effect
* Medical astrology
* New age
* Nadi astrology
* Occult
* Ophiuchus (arbitrary star constellation)
* Planets in astrology
* Proposed theories of astrology
* Rose Cross and Astrology
* Sidereal astrology
* Tropical year

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology)

Some who replied had it right. Astrology is a tool for divination of the cosmos in an attempt to gain insight on things to come. It is used to predict the future. If you want, I'll locate relevant quotes from Christ that make it clear that we are not to foretell the future, for it is in the hands of God alone and through faith, we require not these distractions. You will find additonal evidence in your work in astrology when it kind of NEVER leads to Christ. He will never be mentioned.
Astrology is not prayer. Astrology puts you in touch with you... though there is no basis to validate astrology in any way whatsoever. Sorry to disappoint you, but for example, the US has more astrological symbolism embedded into it than any other nation and it's run prominently by Freemasons. Consider the great pyramids and their astological aligment. The pyramids still stand today to remind us that God will come to us and not the other way around. Let me know if you want additional references or clarification.

I think you are a good person TB and you mean well.

10-14-2006, 05:13 AM
I must admit... your posts threw me off a little TB.

Question: "How can I recognize a false teacher / false prophet?"

Answer: Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). To best guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers - know the truth. To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who is, “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15), and who makes a careful study of the Bible, can identify false doctrine. For example, a believer who has read the activities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:16-17 will immediately question any doctrine that denies the Trinity. Therefore, “step one” is to study the Bible and judge all teaching by what the scripture says.

Jesus said “a tree is known by his fruit” (Matthew 12:33). When looking for “fruit,” here are three specific tests to apply to any teacher to determine the accuracy of his or her teaching:

1) What does this teacher say about Jesus? In Matthew 16:15, Jesus asks, “Whom say ye that I am?” Peter answers, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and for this answer Peter is called “blessed.” In 2 John 9, we read, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.” In other words, Jesus Christ and His work of redemption is of utmost importance; beware anyone who denies that Jesus is equal with God, who downplays Jesus’ substitutionary death, or who rejects Jesus’ humanity. First John 2:22 says, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”

2) Does this teacher preach the gospel? The gospel is defined as the good news concerning Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As nice as they sound, the statements “God loves you,” “God wants us to feed the hungry,” and “God wants you to be wealthy” are NOT the complete message of the gospel. As Paul warns in Galatians 1:7, “There be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” No one, not even a great preacher, has the right to change the message that God gave us. “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

3) Does this teacher exhibit character qualities that glorify the Lord? Speaking of false teachers, Jude 11 says, “They have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.” In other words, a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses).

http://www.gotquestions.org/false-teachers.html

Chapter Fifty

False Prophets

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Matthew 7:15

If there be any verse in Holy Writ where it is deeply important to observe (and heed!) its connection it is surely the one at which we have now arrived. It may appear to the casual reader that our Lord here began an entirely new subject, having little or no relation to what immediately precedes. It is true our present verse introduces a distinct section of His Sermon, yet it also bears directly on what He had just said. Having described most solemnly and searchingly the way of life, like a faithful Guide Christ went on to warn us against one of the chief impediments to walking in that way, namely false guides; those who under the pretence of offering us Divine directions therein will fatally deceive us if we give heed thereto. In every age, but never more so than in our own, multitudes of gullible souls have been allured into the broad road which leads to destruction by men professing to be teachers of the Truth and ministers of Christ, yet who had not His Spirit and who were none of His: blind leaders of the blind, who with their dupes fall into the ditch.

"Beware of false prophets." The force of this exhortation will be the better perceived if we take to heart what is found in the Old Testament thereon, bearing in mind that history has ever repeated itself since human nature is the same in all ages. "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land: The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means" (Jer. 5:30, 31). "Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in My name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake I unto them; they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought and the deceit of their heart" (Jer. 14:14) "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies; they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto Me as Sodom. . . . Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you, they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord" (Jer. 23:14,16). "There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls, they have taken the treasure and precious things, they have made her many widows" (Ezek. 22:25). False prophets were one of the chief factors in the apostasy and destruction of Israel, and these passages are recorded for our admonition and warning.

It must not be supposed that such deceivers passed away with the ending of the Mosaic economy. The Lord Jesus and His apostles announced that there should be false teachers in this Christian dispensation. Christ declared that "many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many," yea, they would present such imposing credentials that "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:11, 24). Paul, announced, "I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch" (Acts 20:29-31). And again he said, "Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Rom. 16:17, 18). Peter foretold, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways" (2 Pet. 2:1, 2). John gave warning, "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

Immediately after the parable of the Sower Christ declared, "His enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat" (Matthew 13:25), the one so closely resembling the other that He commanded, "Let both grow together until, the harvest," when it will be seen there is no corn in the ears of the deceitful tares. By placing those parables in juxtaposition the Lord Jesus exposed the method and order of His adversary. "As Jannes and Jambres [the magicians of Pharaoh] withstood Moses" (2 Tim. 3:8) by their imitating his miracles, so when God sends forth His servants to preach the Gospel the Devil soon after prompts his emissaries to proclaim "another gospel": when God speaks the Devil gives a mocking echo. Satan has found that he can work far more effectively by counterfeiting the Truth than by openly denying it, hence in every age "false prophets" have abounded, and therefore we should be neither surprised nor stumbled by their number or success in our own day. We fully agree with Andrew Fuller when he said, "As this word ‘beware of false prophets’ was designed for Christians of every age, the term rendered ‘prophets’ must here, as it often is elsewhere, be used of ordinary teachers."

"Beware of false prophets" signifies in this dispensation, Be on your guard against false teachers, heretical preachers. There are no longer any "prophets" in the strict and technical sense of the term, though there are a few of God’s servants who in their gifts and special work approximate closely thereto. Those against whom we are here warned are men who have a false commission, never having been called of God to the service they engage in; they preach error, which is subversive of "the doctrine which is according to godliness" (1 Tim. 6:3); and the fruit they bear is a base imitation of the fruit of the Spirit. The chief identifying mark of the false prophets has ever been their saying, "Peace, peace," when there is none (Jer. 23:17; Micah 3:5; 1 Thess. 5:3). They heal the wounds of sinners slightly (Jer. 8:11) and daub "with untempered morter" (Ezek. 8:14; 22:28). They prophesy "smooth things" (Isa. 30:10), inventing easy ways to heaven, pandering to corrupt nature. There is nothing in their preaching which searches the conscience and renders the empty professor uneasy, nothing which humbles and causes their hearers to mourn before God; but rather that which puffs up, makes them pleased with themselves and to rest content in a false assurance.

The general characteristic of "false prophets" is that they make vital godliness to he a less strict and easier thing than it actually is, more agreeable to fallen human nature, and thus they encourage the unregenerate to be satisfied with something which comes short of true grace. So the Pharisees did, notwithstanding all their strictness (Matthew 23:25). So the papists do, notwithstanding all their boasted austerities. So Arminians do, notwithstanding all their seeming zeal for good works. So the Antinomians do, notwithstanding their pretended superior light and joy, zeal and confidence. This is the common mark of all false teachers: rejecting the Divine way, they manufacture one to suit themselves, and however they may differ among themselves, they all agree to make the practice of piety and the Christian walk an easier thing than the Scriptures do, to offer salvation on cheaper terms, to make the gate wider and the way to heaven broader than did Christ and His apostles. It is this which explains the secret of their popularity: "They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them" (1 John 4:5). But of such Christ warns his people to "beware," for they feed souls with poison and not with the pure milk of the Word.

"Which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." In those words Christ emphasized the danger of these false prophets: the character they assumed is well calculated to deceive the unwary. The Lord here alluded to a device employed by false prophets in former times who counterfeited the true servants of God by wearing their distinctive attire. Elijah, in regard to his garments, was called "a hairy man" (2 Kings 1:8), and therefore when John the Baptist came "in the spirit and the power of Elias" (Luke 1:17) we are told that he "had his raiment of camel’s hair" (Matthew 3:4). When then the agents of Satan posed as the true prophets they counterfeited their attire that they might more easily seduce the people, as is clear from Zechariah 13: 4, where Jehovah declared that a day would come when the prophet should be ashamed of the vision he had prophesied and should no more wear "a garment of hair to deceive." Thus by this evident reference Christ intimated the plausible pretences of the heretical teachers, the subterfuges which they would employ to conceal their real character and design, thereby stressing what dangerous persons they are and how urgent is the need for His people to be constantly on their guard against those who seek their destruction.

"Which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." They pose as being the very opposite of what they really are. They are agents of the evil one, yet claim to be the servants of the Holy One. Their place is on the outside, in the forests and mountains, yet. they intrude themselves within the fold. This intimates their great craftiness and seeming piety. People think they are teaching them the way to heaven, when in fact they are conducting them to hell. Often they are difficult to discover, for they "creep into houses and lead captive silly women" (2 Tim. 3:6), yea, even in apostolic times some of them successfully "crept in unawares" (Jude 4) into the assemblies of the saints. It was of such Paul wrote when he said, "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness" (2 Cor. 11:13-15). Though their clothing be "sheep’s," yet they have the fierceness and cruelty of wolves.

In addition to their subtlety and plausibility, frequently accompanied by a most winsome personality and an apparently saintly walk, there is a real danger of our being deceived by these false prophets and receiving their erroneous teaching by virtue of the fact that there is that within the Christian himself which responds to and approves of their lies. How immeasurably this intensifies our peril! That which flatters is pleasing to the flesh; that which abases is distasteful. Paul complains of this very thing to the Corinthians. Some had evidently resented his plain speaking in the first epistle, wherein he had rebuked their sins, for in his second he wrote, "would to God ye could bear with me a little" (11:1). The Galatians first received the Gospel so gladly from him that they would have plucked out their eyes had that advantaged him (4:15), yet soon after they imbibed deadly error from the Judaizers, and when the apostle took them to task for this he had to ask them, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" (v. 16). Thus it was with the multitudes in connection with our Saviour: acclaiming Him with their hosannas and less than a week later crying, "Away with Him, crucify Him," so fickle and treacherous is the human heart.

What point does this give to our Lord’s command, "take heed what ye hear" (Mark 4:24). Corrupt nature is thoroughly in love with error and will more readily and eagerly receive false than true doctrine. Should any dispute our statement, we would refer them to "the prophets prophesy falsely and the priests bear rule by their means; and My people love to have it so" (Jer. 5:31). Said Christ unto the Jews, "because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not" (John 8:45): what a commentary on fallen human nature—had He preached lies they had promptly received Him. Alas, what is man: he will run greedily after something new and sensational, but is soon bored by the old story of the Gospel. How feeble is the Christian, how weak his faith, how fickle and unstable the moment he is left to himself. Peter, the most courageous and forward of the apostles in his profession, denied his Master when challenged by a maid. Even when given a heart to love the Truth, we still have "itching ears" for novelties and errors, as the Israelites welcomed the manna at first, but soon grew weary of it and lusted after the fleshpots of Egypt. Real and urgent then is our need to heed this command, "Beware of false prophets."

It is time that we should now proceed to amplify the thought expressed in our opening paragraph. In the previous section of His Sermon Christ had contrasted the broad road and the many who tread it and the narrow way and the few who find it, adding immediately, "Beware of false prophets." Now the narrow way, which leads unto life, is the way of salvation, and therefore the warning given us must have respect to those who teach or present an erroneous way of salvation, thereby placing the souls of their listeners in imminent peril, for to accept their false teachings is fatal. Thus the tremendous importance of our present passage is at once apparent. As the verse quoted from 2 Peter tells us, it is nothing short of "damnable heresies" which these false prophets promulgate. It is about salvation matters they treat, but damnation is the end of those who receive their lies, unless God intervenes with a miracle of grace and disillusions their dupes, which very rarely happens. It therefore behooves each of us seriously to ask, Have I been deceived by these false prophets? Am I treading a way which "seemeth right" unto me but which God declares is the way o( "death" (Prov. 14:12)? Yea, it behooves us sincerely amid earnestly to beseech God to make it unmistakably clear to us which "way" we are really treading.

Now it is the duty of God’s servants to provide help to exercised souls on this supremely important matter, to expose the lies of these "false prophets," to make plain the way of salvation. This may best be done by defining and showing the relation of good works unto salvation, for it is at this point more than any other that the emissaries of Satan have fatally deceived souls. The principal errors which have been advanced thereon may be summed up under these two heads: salvation by works, and salvation without works. Romanists have been the chief promulgators of the former, insisting that the good works of the Christian have a meritorious value which entitles him to heaven. Thereby they rob Christ of much of His glory, bringing in something of ours in addition to His blood and righteousness to obtain acceptance with God. Romanists do not repudiate in toto either the grace of God or the redemption of Christ, but they nullify both by attributing saving efficacy unto the rites of their church, and the performances of the creature. Such an error is expressly repudiated by such scriptures as Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8 and 9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5.

Some of the propagators of the salvation-without-works error during the last century have assumed the garb of the orthodox and thereby obtained a hearing from many who had never listened to them had their real characters been suspected. They have gone to the opposite extreme and preached a "gospel" as far removed from the Truth as the Romish lie of salvation by works. They teach that while good works from Christians are certainly desirable yet they are not imperative, the absence of them involving merely the loss of certain "millennial" honours and not the missing of heaven itself. They have interpreted those words of Christ’s "It is finished" in such a way as to lull multitudes of souls into a false peace, as though He wrought something at the Cross which renders it needless for sinners to repent, forsake their idols, renounce the world before they can be saved; that "nothing is required from them but their simple acceptance of Christ by faith;" that once they have "rested on His finished work"—no matter what their subsequent lives—they are "eternally secure." So widely has this fatal doctrine been received, so thoroughly have these "ravenous wolves" deceived the religious world by their "sheep’s clothing," that with rare exceptions anyone who now denounces this deadly evil is to call down upon himself the charge of being a "Legalist" or "Judaizer."

Before we endeavour to show the place which good works have in connection with salvation, let us quote a few sentences from a brief article we wrote in this magazine some years ago. "It is finished: do those blessed words signify that Christ so satisfied the requirements of God’s holiness that that holiness no longer has any real and pressing claims upon us? Did Christ ‘magnify the Law and make it honourable’ (Isa. 42:21) that we might be lawless? Did He fulfil all righteousness to purchase for us an immunity from loving God with all our hearts and serving Him with all our faculties? Did Christ die in order to secure a Divine indulgence that we might live to please self? . . . Christ died not to make my sorrow for and hatred of sin useless. Christ died not to absolve me from the full discharge of my responsibilities unto God. Christ died not so that I might go on retaining the friendship and fellowship of the world. . . . The ‘finished work’ of Christ avails me nothing if my heart has not been broken by an agonizing consciousness of my sinfulness. It avails me nothing if I still love the world (1 John 2:15). It avails me nothing unless I am a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17)."

Since then salvation by works and salvation without works are equally opposed to God’s way of salvation, what is the place or relation which "good works" hold to the saving of a soul? Let us first define our terms. By "good works" we mean those operations of our hearts and hands which are performed in obedience to God’s will, which proceed from evangelical principles and which have in view the Divine glory. By "salvation" we include not only regeneration (which is simply the beginning of it in our experience) but sanctification and an actual entrance into heaven itself. Thus "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" (2 Cor. 7:10), unreserved surrender to the Lordship of Christ (Matthew 11:29; Luke 14:33), the obedience of faith (Rom. 16:26; Heb. 5:9), enduring to the end in sound doctrine (1 Tim. 4:16), love to God (Matthew 24:12, 13), and the way of holiness (Heb. 3:15) are all "good works" and are indispensably necessary if we are to escape the everlasting burnings. The good Shepherd "goeth before" His sheep (John 10:4) and if they are to join Him on high they must "follow Him"—"leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps" (1 Pet. 2:21). There is no reaching heaven except by treading the only path that leads there—the highway of holiness.

The subject we are now dealing with is far too important to be condensed into a few brief and general statements, therefore, as our present space is almost exhausted, we shall conclude with this paragraph and enter into more detail in our next chapter. That good works are neither the chief nor the procuring cause of salvation is readily admitted, but that they are no cause whatever, that they are simply "fruits" of salvation and not a means thereto, we as definitely deny. On the one hand good works must be kept strictly subordinate to the grace of God and the merits of Christ: on the other hand they must not be entirely excluded. It is the corn he sows which produces the crop, equally true that the fertility of the ground and the showers and sunshine from heaven are indispensable for a harvest; but given the finest seed, the richest soil, the most favorable season, would the farmer have anything to reap if he failed to plough his ground and sow his seed? But does that furnish room for the farmer to boast? Certainly not; who provided him with the seed and ground, who furnished him with health and strength, who granted the increase in his labours? Nevertheless, had he remained inactive there would be no crop.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sermon/sermon_50.htm

I'll leave it there. Faith renders pseudo-science such as astrology useless when it comes to your relationship with the creator... Christ.

Hope this helps...

10-15-2006, 04:24 AM
Shadow_ wrote:
The strangest and truly weird poster on this forum is ignt. What is this thing?
What prompted the statement on ignt following TB's post, if I may ask? Failing to see the connection.

Credit is given where it is due and the thing about ignt is that he makes you think. His intellect shows in his words and their meaning. He has done his homework. The presentation is a sort of... read between the lines if you can see the lines. At first he had me a little on the defense especially when he started a thread addressing me publically and I've since been throwing some uhh comments his way just to see how he responds if he responds. I haven't seen him around lately but I have some things I'd like to discuss... without certain present barriers and in private. If you can get past the packaging the contents he just might register with you.

truebeliever
10-15-2006, 08:32 PM
SPECTRE:

I wont be posting here much. I've sent you a P.M on where to contact me. :-) I'm focussing my efforts closer to home. Alot of local sheep trapped in the Left/Right Globalist/Zionist sheep pen.

Just a quick point...

I use Astrology as a way of understanding what I have inherited of God that makes up my personality. God gives us SPECIFIC personalities which are the vehicles and the tools we have to apply Gods Will.

The "Birth Chart" is very different from trying to "Divine" the future. Being anxious about the future indicates a lack of Faith in God.

However, by understanding my Birth Chart I know I have a Scorpio Sun, Aquarius Rising and a Virgo Moon. Along with other powerful Scorpio traits this psychological make up gives me the vehicle nescessary to face down Powerful People. I can have ALL the great knowledge in the world, if I cannot "actualise" that knowledge in the wake of universal deceit on this planet then it is useless.:-)

"Paraying" could not give me this understanding ONLY in as much if it sent me to an Astrologer to have my birth chart done.:-) Astrology is not REPLACING God...it is ONLY a tool to divine Gods Will in me. To help reveal my Calling in this world just as a "litteral" motor car may help me get God's Will done. Neither replaces God, in fact it is ridiculous to claim it's so.

Because the Churches have failed to give people the TOOLS to KNOW God and Divine Gods Will, we have these "dropped tools" of the Church being picked up by Satan and handed to human beings who seek personal power over salvation.

Remember this:They stoned Christ on the road because He said to them..."yae ARE Gods"! He also stated clearly..."the Kingdom Of God is within YOU". This simple and obvious point is SIMPLY ignored by the Church. Tell me a Christian Church where the congrgation is told that they ARE Gods and if they will commit to Christ and His Word they will KNOW Gods Love and Mercy beyond simple "rule keeping". They will EXPERIENCE Knowing God which will give them the strength to go through the incredibly tough 30-50 years ahead.

You too can come to know this. That you ARE a god! And that Kingdom is within; NOT "up their".:-) This of course is THE most difficult path you can take in life. Literally a trial that can last for years and take away everything you have ever owned or known. But that is the point..."if you follow Me you have no Father, you have no Mother, you have no Brothers and Sisters". If you take up the Cross it will completely shatter you and then with Gods mercy, re-build you anew with your destiny intertwined with God and NOT the false doctrines of men, whether they be your Father's (literally) or Lord Sauron (Rothschild) himself and the NWO program of complete submission to the laws of men.

Look at Makow. He wrote somewhere that going down the path of Truth has cost him the relationship with his Father. Good! A sure sign he's on the right track!:-)

I cannot "join" this version of the Christian Church that does not have the capacity to understand the fullness of Christs message. Some aspects of the Church have through the "Asthetics" but this needs to be made mainstream less we see the so called "New Age" taking over.

IMHO.

truebeliever
10-15-2006, 08:37 PM
SPECTRE:

Regarding IGNT.

If he had anything to say he would say it. Instead he speaks in riddles because he believes he will not be understood because he is a simple parrot who does not understand what he is saying.

You talk of false prophets? Well the sure sign is someone who does not speak openly and clearly.

IGNT fits that hole perfectly.

truebeliever
10-15-2006, 08:52 PM
OC:

You do not understand that of which you speak.

Economic Rationalism has NOTHING to do with "Fascism" but EVERYTHING to do with "Communism" or more precisely "Marxism".

This follows onto "Dialectical Materialism"; or the ideological view that life can be lived and explained on the basis of "class struggle". Relationships between people & things are explained PURELY through the eye of a struggle for survival. That human beings are motivated by the most "base" of human instincts.

This led to Darwins theory of evoloution and the debasing of man as an "accident" of nature.

The "Age Of Reason" etc...ties in with all of this.

So...in closing, what else can "Economic Rationalism" be, but good old "Marxism" dressed in "Capitalist Drag"; wearing a suit and tie and having orgasims over "beautiful sets of numbers" on his lap top Excel Spreadsheet.:-)

I hope this has cleared it up for you and made obvious what is obvious.

10-16-2006, 06:43 AM
I'm sorry to hear that you are taking a step away from this site... you're one of the few "real" people this forum has going for it. I hope this decision was not influenced by my comments regarding "astrology". When it comes to the "I am God" topic I have some feedback and will be having that conversation privately... assuming you are willing. I absolutely understand what you're saying and where you are coming from. Your relationship with God is your own... and noone has the right to judge that.

I'll be in touch.

-Spectre

Ozziecynic
10-21-2006, 11:34 PM
TB:You do not understand that of which you speak.



Economic Rationalism has NOTHING to do with "Fascism" but EVERYTHING to do with "Communism" or more precisely "MarxismThis follows onto "Dialectical Materialism"; or the ideological view that life can be lived and explained on the basis of "class struggle". Relationships between people & things are explained PURELY through the eye of a struggle for survival. That human beings are motivated by the most "base" of human instincts.

This led to Darwins theory of evoloution and the debasing of man as an "accident" of nature.

The "Age Of Reason" etc...ties in with all of this.

So...in closing, what else can "Economic Rationalism" be, but good old "Marxism" dressed in "Capitalist Drag"; wearing a suit and tie and having orgasims over "beautiful sets of numbers" on his lap top Excel Spreadsheet".

Really try telling this self absorbed diatribe to Political science academia or Liberal party politicians even Howard himself, instead of arguing with me take up the argument with Liberal MPs themsleves write or email them and see the response you get to your wild claims as i am beyond debating this fact with you any longer you are beyond reasoning your bizarre habit of skewing of accepted ideological facts isnt logical neither is it likely to ever be accepted among academia or pleabians in Australia, although i dont doubt some of our wacky nth americans posters here may believe you, but hey they would believe anything like a croc or roo in every ozzie backyard :roll: :-?