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rushdoony
03-25-2005, 01:38 PM
What is The Ecclesia?
By Ben Williams


"Ecclesia" is an entirely different word with an entirely different meaning than "kuriakos" ("church")

Eventually, through the manipulation of organized religion, "church" came to replace "ecclesia" by popular acceptance. Indeed, churches have achieved their goal-- to neutralize Christians!

Churches are proving grounds for religious tricksters, con artists and politicians. Churches facilitate greed and superstition. They prey upon the gullible. CHURCH IS THE GREAT AMERICAN IDOL, AND CHURCHGOERS ARE IDOLATERS.

The Greek "ecclesia" was "a civil body politic." This is strong proof that the Christian "ecclesia" we read about in the New Testament was an INDEPENDENT CIVIL BODY OF CHRISTIANS -- independent from rulers and man's government. Their objective was to be free to serve King Jesus. This phenomenon had nothing to do with building and attending churches! Churches are NOT ecclesias!

Part One: What Is The Ecclesia?


Part Two: Is It A Church? Is It A Cult? Is It Important?


Part Three: Life On The Plantation
http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/ecclesia/

DarkChilde3D
03-25-2005, 04:40 PM
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS STATEMENT!

The only reason I'm getting my daughter baptized is the matter of tradition.

Saturnino
03-25-2005, 05:18 PM
I am myself a person who has been hurt by church but I don`t agree with the radicalism. The Bible is very clear that we are supposed to meet as a group, called local church. I know that church in the spiritual sense is the whole body of Christ, but a good church is important for many many reasons. Among them support, encouragement, learning, fellowship, worship, etc.

The problem is not the church itself, it is the BAD churches that are all around us...thanks to the apostates, church marketing guys, Crystal Cathedral people, Rick Warrens, etc. But a church doesn`t HAVE to be bad.

nohope187
03-25-2005, 06:02 PM
I like this thread. Most, if not all churches in Amerika of any denomination are corporate churches, which means they're married to the State, making them creatures of the State. Now that God has been kicked out of government, the State wants to take his place. So far, their efforts have gone unhindered. So basically, you can say that every modern church goer really is a worshiper of the State. :-P

psholtz
03-26-2005, 05:56 AM
I've always felt that the mainstream Christian "worship" of "Jesus" borders on the idolatorous. You're still supposed to worship God, not man, and at the end of the day Jesus was still a man. Christ is that from God which is Divine, but despite the name ("Christian"), nobody in any Christian church I've ever been to worships "Christ" -- they will worship this man named "Jesus"..

There's as big a diff between "Jesus" and "Christ" as there is between "Ecclesia" and "kuriakos"..

I mean, if we're going to worship an idol, than let's at least get the name right and worship "Yushua ben Pantera", since as near as the archaelogists can tell us, that's the guy's real name.. Not "Jesus", which is an idolatorous Greek acronym based upon the name..

Saturnino
03-26-2005, 07:59 AM
Man, your problem is not with churches, it is with Christianity. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. This is basic Christianity. Therefore, when people worship Jesus, they are worshipping God.

In this, churchgoers are totally correct. Who do you want them to worship, if not Jesus ? Your position doesn`t make sense. If you don`t want to be a Christian, it is your problem, but definetly you can`t blame people for doing what is right in their religion. Christians who worship Jesus and go to church are just doing what Jesus Christ told them to do.

Ahmad
03-26-2005, 08:10 AM
Peace


Jesus never told anybody to worship him.



excerpts from Appendix 22 (http://www.submission.org/suras/app22.html)

Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that God is one in essence but three in ``person,'' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such,
appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ``Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one'' (Deut. 6:4).
[ Encyclopedia Britannica, 1975 ]


Here is what Jesus actually said,

Jesus proclaimed aloud: ``Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; ..... For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.'' [ John 12:44-50 ]

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

Jesus said: ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me.'' [ John 7:16 ]

"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials. These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know."
[ Acts 2:22 ]

``...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I come; he sent me.'' [ John 7:28-29 ]

Jesus looked up to heaven and said, ``...Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.'' [ John 17:1-3 ]

``...Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' '' [ John 20:17 ]

``God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[ Quran 3:51, 19:36, & 43:64 ]

Draken
03-26-2005, 09:43 AM
In support of Ahmad on this one all the way.

SampleX
03-26-2005, 11:33 AM
May I ask why the Quran is being quoted alongside the Bible in relation to the Lordship and Deity of Jesus Christ. Save for quoting LaVey's Satanic Bible, I cannot think of two more diametrically opposed books.

The arguments attempting to scripturally diminish the deity of Christ are selectively semantic.

The fact remains that Jesus was challenged before a Roman court as to his claims of being divine, and they were never refuted, and moreso he confirmed them with the response 'YhWh' - I Am.

Further still, when Satan tempted Jesus in the Wilderness he didn't respond 'you shouldn't press me because I'm a messenger of God and he's got my back...' He spoke with authority and knowledge, and said 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'

Further still, the quotations that were provided by Ahmad are entirely liberalised and their meaning altered in the process... I note in the quotation from John 12, the convenient omission, with a replacing '...' of Jesus stating 'he who has seen me has seen the one that sent me.' While Jesus may not specifically mention 'trinity' by name, he certainly makes frequent allusion to it and equates Himself with it in equality.

The trinity is doctrinally alluded to in the New Testament, because the NT was written by Jews, who understood the triune God from Judaism. And the trinity IS alluded to in the Old Testament, from the original Hebrew... Elohim, the Hebrew for God, is a linguistic plural, yet inseparable, and is a common pluralistic thread of the Old Testament scripture which reiterates time and time again the themality of triune deity, and the varisome person of God (Elohim). The reason that nothing in New Testament doctrine 'contradicts' the Shema or the original texts of the Torah is because the understanding of the Hebrew tradition was well beyond our own linguistic translation, and they already accepted 'elohim'.

It also seems to be forgotten that Abraham's own prophecy about what would take place on the very same mount outside Jerusalem, 'God will provide Himself a sacrifice...' directly identifies by geographical location, by type, and by a clear revelation of the anticipation of the future, the person of Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of God, with 'God Himself'...

The rest of the scripture quoted here, seems to be quoted entirely out of context. Manipulation to fit the bill of what Ahmad wanted to say, it seems...

psholtz
03-26-2005, 12:30 PM
Saturnino wrote:
Man, your problem is not with churches, it is with Christianity. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. This is basic Christianity. Therefore, when people worship Jesus, they are worshipping God.

In this, churchgoers are totally correct. Who do you want them to worship, if not Jesus ? Your position doesn`t make sense. If you don`t want to be a Christian, it is your problem, but definetly you can`t blame people for doing what is right in their religion. Christians who worship Jesus and go to church are just doing what Jesus Christ told them to do.
I have no problems w/ Christianity.. in fact, I regard myself as a "Christian", insofar as I'm a FOLLOWER of Christ, not an IDOLATOR of Jesus. There's a huge difference.

Jesus set an example by walking a Path that all Christians are called upon to follow. But how few "Christians" there are who truly take it upon themselves to follow this Path?

Like ahmad says, worship the God who worked through Jesus, and if you're lucky, maybe God will work through you in a similar manner. This is the highest calling a Christian can take upon themselves.

Draken
03-26-2005, 12:30 PM
As an introduction to what is called Sophia Perennis and the people associated with this way of thought I recommend this explanation of the doctrine of the transcendent unity of religions. This concept is of relevance to the current discussion. <a href="http://www.integralscience.org/unity.html">On The Transcendent Unity of Religions
Copyright 1993 Thomas J. McFarlane</a>

If anyone wishes to explore in depth these concepts I recommend my thread <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=590&forum=3&PHPSESSID=52602859251dfcd0c98e2781582bbb9f">INTEGRAL TRADITION Revolt against the modern world CONSERVATIVE REVOLUTION</a> and the following sites:

http://www.religioperennis.org/
http://www.seriousseekers.com/
http://www.worldwisdom.com/
http://www.frithjof-schuon.com/
http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/

psholtz
03-26-2005, 12:48 PM
Saturnino wrote:
Christians who worship Jesus and go to church are just doing what Jesus Christ told them to do.
btw, like I said in my first post on this thread, the guy's named simply isn't "Jesus Christ".. There never lived a man whose name was "Jesus Christ", so it's pretty much impossible for this (imaginary) man to have ordered the "Christian" church to "worship" him, as you're implying..

If you're going to idolize the man, at least do him the kind service of invoking him by his real name (which most certainly, is not "Jesus Christ").

Of course, I'm not denying that 2000 years ago there lived a great Holy Man in Palestine (by the name of Yeshua), and that this man's life is documented in the Christian New Testament, and that He worked many miracles and that He was a veritable Son of God. This much I believe all to be True.

Of course... the guy's name wasn't Jesus, and he wasn't white and he didn't have blond hair and blue eyes like all your idolatorous pictures of him depict.. but then again that's kinda my whole point. It's be really hard for "Christian" churches in WASP America to "worship Jesus" if they had to "worship" some short brown Palestinian w/ a fuzzy afro.. Just wouldn't go over quite so well w/ the "congregation".. Hence the IDOLATORY of worshipping this IMAGINARY (Aryan-ized) "Jesus Christ"..

Just stick to living your life as closely as possible to the way Jesus lived His, and you'll be doing God 1000x more honor and "worship" than you could by all your idolizing of "Jesus"..

Ahmad
03-26-2005, 02:28 PM
Peace be upon you,

SampleX asked: "May I ask why the Quran is being quoted alongside the Bible in relation to the Lordship and Deity of Jesus Christ. Save for quoting LaVey's Satanic Bible, I cannot think of two more diametrically opposed books"

Quran is the final testament, it confirms and supersedes ALL the previous scriptures including the old and new testament. Many people though buy the propaganda that the book is satanic, and the sad truth about the "muslim" world confirm their doubts, however what may be surprising to you is the fact that the "muslim" world now have ABANDONED Quran en masse!, they follow a collection of books called "Hadith" that was developed by Satan to divert them from Quran and to divide them into sects, each happy with the collection of Hadiths (Sayings falsely attributed to Muhammad) they have, thus the Sunni have their own collection and the Shiaa have their own and that's why they always fight (totally different satanic religions).

------------------------------------------------

SampleX: "The fact remains that Jesus was challenged before a Roman court as to his claims of being divine, and they were never refuted, and moreso he confirmed them with the response 'YhWh' - I Am."


Part 1 of Satan's propaganda is to make us believe that Jesus was persecuted because of his claim of devinity. However the truth is the Jews persecuited him because: 1- He taught his followers to abandon the man-made teachings (Mishnah, early oral Talmud) and worship God alone. 2- He asked the Jewish priests to believe the Gospels he was sent with, and follow his command.

This ofcourse enraged the Jewish priests who were already revered as gods, they felt threatened, their thrones were crumbling with each word Jesus spoke, he said that the only authority is God's and not that of a few elite.

Part 2 of the hoax is to make us believe that Jesus was tortured. Quran confirms that he was indeed crucified, BUT before the torture began, God saved his "honorable" messenger prophet, God raised his soul to Heaven, while his body stayed in a state of alertness (like Terri Schiavo's), his eyes were wide open, yet he was making no response.

Why Satan authored this torture part? to induce a trauma in the minds, a trauma can be succesfuly induced if you mix intense love with a horrible event, the result is idol-worship, which simply means attributing "independent powers" to the tortured person, thus he becomes a god (with inherent power) this time the power Satan wanted to attribute to the dead Jesus was (the power of knowledge and granting salvation).

Satan by one stroke shifted the focus of the message from God (the Sender) to the postman, Jesus.

Part 3, Satan then found himself with two groups, one group (the sincere disciples) insisting that Jesus was a human messenger and the message is what should be followed from then on, the other group that was brainwashed by the crucifixion hoax held that Jesus was God himself, Satan then thought "there must be a compromise to bring those two groups together" so he developed the trinity concept, which is a mix of egyptian and roman mythology, then he ordered the pagan roman emperor Constantine to put an end to the disputes and institute by force the doctrine of trinity (in the Nicea, Nicine Conference 325AD), thus he turned Jesus into a father/son god, and Gabriel into a devine holy spirit.

Yet the truth remains that Jesus and Gabriel are no more than created messengers who are totally powerless and dependent on their Creator, which means that their knowledge, their miracles..etc were not from them but from God.

------------------------------------------

SampleX: "Further still, when Satan tempted Jesus in the Wilderness he didn't respond 'you shouldn't press me because I'm a messenger of God and he's got my back...' He spoke with authority and knowledge, and said 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"


Could you please tell me where in the bible i can find this quote?

-------------------------------------------

SampleX: "Further still, the quotations that were provided by Ahmad are entirely liberalised and their meaning altered in the process... I note in the quotation from John 12, the convenient omission, with a replacing '...' of Jesus stating 'he who has seen me has seen the one that sent me.'


If this was the correct translation then it must be a satanic injection, for it contradicts the whole message of the scriptures that none equals God and that no vision can encompass Him.

[6:103] No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.

---------------------------------------------

SampleX: "While Jesus may not specifically mention 'trinity' by name, he certainly makes frequent allusion to it and equates Himself with it in equality.The trinity is doctrinally alluded to in the New Testament, because the NT was written by Jews, who understood the triune God from Judaism. And the trinity IS alluded to in the Old Testament"


God never beats around the bush, God is direct, the ideas are clear and simple, the "Allusions" you mention come from Satan, he is the master of allusions and illusions. Why leave the 90% direct, clear verses and stick to the vague (multiple meaning) ones?

-------------------------------------------

SampleX: "Elohim, the Hebrew for God, is a linguistic plural, yet inseparable, and is a common pluralistic thread of the Old Testament scripture which reiterates time and time again the themality of triune deity, and the varisome person of God (Elohim)."

FromThe Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htm):

Elohim is the common name for God. It is a plural form, but "The usage of the language gives no support to the supposition that we have in the plural form Elohim, applied to the God of Israel, the remains of an early polytheism, or at least a combination with the higher spiritual beings" (Kautzsch). Grammarians call it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h).

--------------------------------------------

SampleX:"It also seems to be forgotten that Abraham's own prophecy about what would take place on the very same mount outside Jerusalem, 'God will provide Himself a sacrifice...' directly identifies by geographical location, by type, and by a clear revelation of the anticipation of the future, the person of Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of God, with 'God Himself'"

Also here could you please give a reference.

-----------------------------------------

SampleX: "The rest of the scripture quoted here, seems to be quoted entirely out of context. Manipulation to fit the bill of what Ahmad wanted to say, it seems..."

So could you mention the right context?

Draken
03-26-2005, 03:55 PM
Of course... the guy's name wasn't Jesus, and he wasn't white and he didn't have blond hair and blue eyes like all your idolatorous pictures of him depict.. but then again that's kinda my whole point. It's be really hard for "Christian" churches in WASP America to "worship Jesus" if they had to "worship" some short brown Palestinian w/ a fuzzy afro.. Just wouldn't go over quite so well w/ the "congregation".. Hence the IDOLATORY of worshipping this IMAGINARY (Aryan-ized) "Jesus Christ"..

psholtz, what difference does it make what Jesus Christ looked like or what his name was?
He simply transcended definition by SAYING what he said and simply BEING.
It's irrelevant how he looked or what his actual name was since he said Himself that he's not doing anything in his own name but in GOD'S NAME.

psholtz
03-26-2005, 06:39 PM
Draken wrote:
Of course... the guy's name wasn't Jesus, and he wasn't white and he didn't have blond hair and blue eyes like all your idolatorous pictures of him depict.. but then again that's kinda my whole point. It's be really hard for "Christian" churches in WASP America to "worship Jesus" if they had to "worship" some short brown Palestinian w/ a fuzzy afro.. Just wouldn't go over quite so well w/ the "congregation".. Hence the IDOLATORY of worshipping this IMAGINARY (Aryan-ized) "Jesus Christ"..

psholtz, what difference does it make what Jesus Christ looked like or what his name was?
He simply transcended definition by SAYING what he said and simply BEING.
It's irrelevant how he looked or what his actual name was since he said Himself that he's not doing anything in his own name but in GOD'S NAME.
You're correct. What Jesus said and did are what made Him who He is/was.. and what skin color he had and what his name really was is of no bearing (to me, at any rate).

However, it is of very great importance to the millions of (so-called) "Christians" out there who worship the blue-haired, blue-eyed White Jesus, rather than worshipping the (one and only) God who Choose to work through Jesus..

Take down the familiar hippie-throw-back, white surfer-dude image of Jesus that we're familiar with, replace it w/ an image of what Jesus (Yeshua?) really looked like (short, dark-skinned Palestinian w/ thick, curly hair) and ask WASP America to bow down and worship that image of Jesus..

I guarantee you it won't happen...

psholtz
03-26-2005, 06:42 PM
Draken wrote:
It's irrelevant how he looked or what his actual name was since he said Himself that he's not doing anything in his own name but in GOD'S NAME.
I agree 1000% w/ that statement.. although I'll also guarantee you that the truth of this statement is lost on 99.8% of the world's "Christian" community, who choose rather to worship an idolatorous "image" of the man Jesus, instead of worshipping the God who choose to work through Jesus..

Saturnino
03-26-2005, 07:53 PM
Many people say they are Christians because they like Christ`s teachings...and who doesn`t ? deep inside we know that love is the answer, that helping people is good, etc.
However, the core of the teaching of Jesus is His sacrifice for our sins. He said He was the truth, the way and the life. Real Christians repent of their sins, accept the substitute sacrifice of Christ (let Jesus pay the penalty) and are forgiven. This is the core of Christianity.
If you like Jesus` teachings but don`t believe the above, you are not a Christian, you are simply a sympathizer of Christ`s teachings, which is something good in itself, but according to the Bible, won`t save your soul.

PS: why people call Him Jesus Christ ? Because Christ means Messiah, or annointed. This is a position, not a name. When we say Jesus Christ, this means that the man Jesus (or Yeshua) is the Messiah. New Age people believe that Christ is a position that is taken by many different beings. Christians believe that only Jesus was the real and only Messiah. I personnaly don`t think that Jesus was blond and blue eyed, but this is such a minor issue when compared with the fact that He was God or not.

Jesus never rejected adoration as God. God the Father Himself told people to obey Jesus and qualified Him as His Son (in His baptism and in the transfiguration). Thomas called Jesus my Lord and my God and Jesus didn`t reject this. Jesus was killed because He made Himself like God, an heresy to the Pharisees, who like the Muslims, could not see the many prophecies about Him in the Old Testament. You can reject Christ if you want, but He made His point very clear. If He was not God, He was a very crazy man.

About Jesus doing the Father`s will,and because of that being less than God, you are missing the point. He came to this earth as a Lamb to be sacrificed. He came to teach us obedience. That`s why he folowed the Father`s will, so that thru His experience we could learn to do the same. That`s why He was called the Son. It is a position He took, not a fact that came from being created by the Father (there is only one God in three persons). However, He is not a simpleton right now without a voice...the Bible tells us that He is actually rulling the universe and keeping things together this very moment. Once his mission was accomplished, He returned to His business of rulling the universe as usual.

Ahmad
03-27-2005, 01:30 AM
Peace Marcos,

It happens for most of us that we grow and inherit our parents' beliefs, i for one followed my father's religion blindly, i remember that he took me oneday to visit a shrine of a dead saint, it was a mosque with a small room inside where the saint is buried, then he took my hand and started circling the tomb and said that by praying here all my wishes will be granted!

That seemed strange to me at the time, why would praying at the tomb of a dead man be any different from praying at home! praise be to God, now i understand the magnitude of deception.

I ask you to start questioning your beliefs before it's too late. Just listen to yourself my friend,

Santurino: "Jesus never rejected adoration as God. God the Father Himself told people to obey Jesus and qualified Him as His Son (in His baptism and in the transfiguration)."


So in the same breath, you say that Jesus IS God (the father) and then you say that the father (Jesus) told people to obey the son (also Jesus) ?

Does this idea conform with a simple man's logic? do you think God will create us with such a brain to confuse it?

So according to your inherited belief there are two probabilities:

1- Jesus is God, the father.
2- Jesus is the son of God, the father.


In the first case, Jesus cannot be a son, he would be a god who descended to demonstrate something to his creation. In the second case, he would be a son of that god, thus lower in rank.

Now your inherited belief again contradict these two positions, if Jesus was God, how on earth would that Omnipotent God submit to His own self imposed rules and sacrifice Himself! and to whom?

And if we assume that Jesus was the son, then he can not be God (the father) in the same time.

So it's either that Jesus is God or a part of God, which position do you take?

And don't tell me they are three in one, but still one, because 3 = not 1.

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.
[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.

Draken
03-27-2005, 02:39 AM
We haven't read too many things about Jesus from a Hindu perspective so here goes:

<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm#Was%20Christ%20a%20Yogi?">Was Christ a Yogi? By Swami Abhedananda</a>
Jesus was a great Yogi, because He realized the transitory and ephemeral
nature of the phenomenal world, and, discriminating the real from the unreal, renounced all desires for worldly pleasures and bodily comforts. Like a great
Yogi He lived a life of seclusion, cutting off all connections with earthly friends
and relatives, and having neither home nor possessions of His own.

Jesus the Christ was a great Karma Yogi, because He never worked for
gains (He worked without expectation of any fruits thereof). He has neither
desire for name nor ambition for fame or for earthly prosperity. His works
were a free offering to the world. He laboured for others, devoted His whole
life to help others, and in the end died for others. Being unattached to the f
ruits of his actions, he worked incessantly for the good of His fellow men,
directing them to the path of righteousness and spiritual realization through
unselfish works. He understood the law of action and reaction, which is the
fundamental principle of the Karma yoga, and it was for this reason He
declared: ‘Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap’.

Jesus of Nazareth proved Himself to be a great Bhakti (devotion) Yogi, a true
lover of God, by His unswerving devotion and His whole-hearted love for the
Heavenly Father. His unceasing prayers, incessant supplications, constant
meditation, and unflinching self-resignation to the will of the Almighty made
Him shine like a glorious morning star in the horizon of love and devotion of
a true Bhakti Yogi. Christ showed wonderful self-control and mastery over His
mind throughout the trials and the sufferings. His sorrow, agony and
self-surrender at the time of His death as well as before His crucifixion, are
conclusive proofs that He was a human being with those divine qualities that
adorn the soul of a true Bhakti Yogi. It is true that His soul laboured for a
while under the heavy burden of His trials and sufferings; it is also true that
He felt that His pain was becoming well-nigh unbearable, when He cried
aloud three times, praying to the Lord: ‘O my Father, if it be possible, let this
cup pass from me’. But He found neither peace nor consolation until He could
absolutely reign His will to that of the Father and could say from the bottom
of His heart, ‘Thy will be done’. The complete self-surrender and absolute
self-resignation are the principal virtues of Bhakti Yoga, and as Christ
possessed these to perfection up to the last moment of His life, He was a
true Bhakti Yogi.

Like the great Raja Yogis in India, Jesus knew the secret of separating His
soul from His physical shell, and He showed this at the time of His death,
while his body was suffering from extreme pain, by saying, ‘Father, forgive
them, for they know not what they do’. It is quite an unusual event to see one
imploring forgiveness for his persecutors, while dying on the cross, but from a
Yogi’s point of view it is both possible and natural. Ramakrishna, the greatest
Yogi of the nineteenth century, whose life and sayings have been written by
Max Muller, was once asked, ‘How could Jesus pray for His persecutors,
when He was in agony on the cross?’ Ramakrishna answered by an
llustration: ‘When the shell of an ordinary green cocoanut is pierced through,
the nail enters the kernel of the nut too. But in the case of the dry cocoanut
the kernel becomes separate from the shell, and so when the shell is pierced,
the kernel is not touched. Jesus was like the dry nut, i.e., His inner soul was
separate from His physical shell, and consequently, the sufferings of the body
did not affect Him’. Therefore, He could pray for the forgiveness of His
persecutors even when His body was suffering; and all true yogis are able to
do the same. There have been many instances of Yogis whose bodies have
been cut into pieces, but their souls never for a moment lost that peace and
equanimity which enabled Jesus to forgive and bless His persecutors. By this
Christ proved that like other Yogis, His soul was completely emancipated from
the bondage of the body and of the feelings. Therefore, Christ was a Yogi.

Through the path of devotion and love, Jesus attained to the realization of
oneness of the individual soul with the Father or the universal Spirit, which is
the ideal of a Jnana Yogi as well as the ultimate goal of all religions. A Jnana
Yogi says: ‘I am He’; ‘I am Brahman’; ‘I am the absolute Truth’; ‘I am one with
the Supreme Deity’. By good works, devotion, love, concentration,
contemplation, long fasting and prayer, Jesus the Christ realized that His
soul was one with God; therefore, He may be said to have attained the ideal
of Jnana Yoga.

Like Krishna, Buddha and all other great Yogis of India, Jesus healed the sick,
opened the eyes of the blind, made the lame walk, and read the secret
thoughts of His disciples. He knew exactly what Judas and Peter were going
to do, but there was nothing supernatural in any of His actions. There was
nothing that cannot be done over and over again by a true Yogi, and there was
nothing in His life that cannot be explained rationally by the science of Yoga
and the philosophy of Vedanta. Without the help of this science and this
philosophy, Jesus the Christ cannot be fully understood and appreciated.
By studying His character, on the other hand, in the light of the Vedanta
philosophy, we shall be able not only to understand Him better, but to have
a larger appreciation of His true glory.


For more on Jesus and Christianity/Churchianity:
<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm">Jesus versus Churchianity</a>

psholtz
03-27-2005, 03:18 AM
Draken wrote:
We haven't read too many things about Jesus from a Hindu perspective so here goes:

<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm#Was%20Christ%20a%20Yogi?">Was Christ a Yogi? By Swami Abhedananda</a>
Jesus was a great Yogi, because He realized the transitory and ephemeral
nature of the phenomenal world, and, discriminating the real from the unreal, renounced all desires for worldly pleasures and bodily comforts. Like a great
Yogi He lived a life of seclusion, cutting off all connections with earthly friends
and relatives, and having neither home nor possessions of His own.

I agree that Christ may have been a "yogi" (had master control over His mind and body), and I agree that he (very clearly) understood the emphemeral and unreal and illusory nature of what we call "Reality" (<- this is, imho, the purpose and foundation of all great religions).

However, I disagree that he renounced all worldly desires and/or needs. The teaching of "Render unto Ceasar that which belongs to Ceasar, and render unto God that which belongs to God" teaches quite clearly that Jesus understood the body (material) to be just as important to man's spiritual development as the Soul (spiritual).

I also disagree that he lived in "seclusion".. He healed countless numbers of people, and he wouldn't have been crucified had he lived in "seclusion"..

Saturnino
03-27-2005, 03:26 PM
Ahmad,

I can`t believe that you didn`t understand that Christians believe that God is one manifested in three persons. maybe you don`t believe in it, but I can`t believe that you didn`t understand. it seems you are running out of arguments and is trying to confuse those who read this thread.

God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Jesus are all God. Three facets of the same thing. Same nature, same will, same essence.

I don`t understand how you think that the Trinity is more difficult to accept than Mohamed`s dreams and visions, followed by his wars and killings. Not a holy man at all, but a sinner of the worst kind.

Jesus, on the other hand, being God, was the only being that never sinned. That`s why He could pay for our sins. I choose to stand with Him.

Satan has done ALL he can in order to people reject the FREE offer of the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins. Hindu views of him as a enlightened master, a prophet, a good man, etc. But if people reject His free offer of salvation, and reject the fact that He was God incarnated, Satan wins your soul. The way to salvation is easy, but it requires repentance and humbleness. Maybe too easy for people who want to have things their own way.

DaddyLongLeg
03-27-2005, 04:46 PM
Hi everyone,

These are my thoughts on the Jesus is God’s son theme. Personally I don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God because God needs no sons or daughters. To say that God has sons or daughters is indirectly saying that God is somehow like man, which is not true.

Men and women have sons and daughters for a reason. The simplest reason I can see is because we die and our offspring continue that life after we have gone. God gave man the ability to multiply for many reasons, but the one that counts in this discussion is the continuity aspect.

Seeing how God is eternal, why would God need to multiply, He lasts forever. If we were also immortal we would not need to reproduce ourselves, but we don’t last forever so we have children instead.

We also have children to help us understand love and nurturing. Having children is also a way for men and women to grow and mature in their relationships with each other. In other words, having children teaches our spirits important lessons. God understands all these things already and always has. He has no need to have sons or daughters.

That’s my view.

psholtz
03-27-2005, 07:04 PM
DaddyLongLeg wrote:
To say that God has sons or daughters is indirectly saying that God is somehow like man, which is not true.
Well, the Bible is pretty clear that man was created in the image of God..

Here's a neat palor trick. I'm sure you're familiar w/ the Tetragrammaton, the 4-letter name of God (Yahweh) found in the Old Testament?

http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr2.gifhttp://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr1.gifhttp://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr2.gifhttp://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr11.gif

One way to write in Hebrew is from right-to-left (opposite from how you read in the Latin languages), which is how I wrote it above. Another valid way is to write from top-to-bottom.

Try that w/ the Tetragrammaton:

http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr11.gif
http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr2.gif
http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr1.gif
http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr2.gif

What you get (if you use your imagination a little bit) is a "stick figure" of a man(!) The Yud is the head, the first He are the arms, the Vav is the torso, and the second He are the legs..

It's just a parlor trick of course.... but... you can also say that man (in some sense) is created in the image of God(!) :-P

psholtz
03-27-2005, 07:09 PM
Saturnino wrote:
Jesus, on the other hand, being God, was the only being that never sinned. That`s why He could pay for our sins. I choose to stand with Him.
Like I keep telling you, take the word "Jesus" above, replace it w/ "Christ", and you'll be back on track.. ;-)

truebeliever
03-28-2005, 01:22 AM
Whatever disagreement I've had with Ahmed I understand to a point where he comes from. I think however Ahmed you use a sledgehammer to drive home a very subtle point.

Stop analysing endlessly and live a just life as best you can. No one say's this better than Jesus Christ. After all, God will look after it all, wont he? Why do you get so uptight and have to even come to this forum Ahmed if you're so sure of the fact that God is in control and we must do is submit?

You tell us to forget all this NWO stuff and simply relax and understand that it's all in Gods hands. If thats the case then there's no need for you to post here anymore.

God works through the hearts and minds of human beings. I would much rather go down the beach than sit and convert documentaries to web format. Something other than my selfish ego pushes me onto the net to discuss whats going on. Thats how God works.

You have many good things to say as do others. You are flawed as am I. However, I detect extreme arrogence in your views and a high degree of hyposcrisy. You cannot come out so strongly with your views while doing the opposite with your left hand.

If we want to pick the New Testament apart then we'd better start picking on a 1000 other ancient texts which do not come even close to the basic criteria for accuracy as does the Bible...time from the events to first printing, number of copies made and one other I cannot remember. The bible passes with flying colours.

From day dot people have been trying to undermine the New Testament...why not the ancient Hindu texts or the story of Buddah? Did'nt Buddah have sex with ten goats and beat and rape small children? No, but why not start a rumour for the heck of it.

People are so busy looking at details they fail to see the forest for the tree's.

Jesus Christ was at WORST a mortal man who had an experience of the divine at a young age. He integrated that experience into his life like no other human in history and gave his life for the truth. Not a bad effort.

At best the man who walked the Earth 2000 years ago was in fact the fully conscious incarnation of the Holy Spirit into human form. God became man to offer himself as a sacrifice to show just how much he loves us. Suffering the most unbearable pain we can imagine. I am profoundly moved by this thought.

I have been down every road from Carl Jung (who i still admire though fatally flawed) to the Eastern religions and even considered Islam...I have returned to my roots. I am a follower of Jesus Christ...often a very poor follower but doing my best.

Ahmed, just be and please stop preaching. Your all encompassing fundmentalism and fixation with a few numbers pale in vast comparison to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his compassionate word.

It works for me and have not the slightest inclination to try and convert anyone else.

Ahmad
03-28-2005, 04:12 AM
Peace,

I can just say that you (believers in Jesus=God) are decieving yourselves, know that the magnitude of this lie is unimaginable.

God calls it a gross blasphemy in His final testament.

The heavens are about to shatter

[19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"!
[19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.
[19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.
[19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.
[19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
[19:93] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.
[19:94] He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.
[19:95] All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.


I am simply a manifest warner, the tsunami (http://www.usn2161.net/christmastsunami.html) was the latest warning for the idolworshipers(Muslims and Christians).

On 11.9 of this year the Quake of all times will take place, know that there is no escape from God, and that the warnings i am giving you are not from me.

You have uttered a great lie, God cannot possibly have a son. He has no partners in His kingship.

If the Most Gracious did have a son, I would still be the foremost worshiper

Be He glorified, God is much too Glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.


You are totally free to disregard these warnings, i am not a guardian over you.

truebeliever
03-28-2005, 04:42 AM
I still say Ahmed that it's possible God incarnated into human form 2000 years ago and performed miracles to show his divinity.

It works for me. Whats wrong with it? When I take to heart the word of Christ I am listening to the word of God. Whats the problem?

I dont have a great love for Billy Graham but he said something once that made me understand Christ better.

He used the example of a human looking down on an ant hill. We're too huge and powerful to get immediately down into the lives of the ants so we would have to incarnate into 'their' world, down to 'their' size.

I agree with you that it's hard to imagine God, the creator of the vast and infinite Universe. Hence God incarnated as a human being at a time when there was a need for the word of great compassion in a hard and heartless world. Obviously there still is.

I take to heart your views when applying it to the Catholic church and the GROSS idolatorious worship of that scum called the Pope. I like many aspects of the Catholic faith but it has been totally usurped by the scum of the Earth as have most organised religion. Their love of Saints so on and so forth gives merit to your writing.

I dont believe this applies to Christ.

As for the coming months and years. God will act through the hearts and minds of fallible yet decent people to remove the scum that we have let reign over us for so long. As it's always been. I do not believe God will punish anyone, Satan worshipping power lovers with high tech weaponary are already doing that.

A new age is dawning and like all change it will be painful. I agree with alot of what you say.

I dont want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The 'story' of Christ shows us that though we may suffer heavily, bearing our cross and speaking the truth amongst so much lies and deceit, God promises we shall rise again. Renewed with hope and the life force. Ready to face all the dissapointment again and with each failure we grow stronger, more tolerent and more compassionate. Realising that we are a community of sinners struggling to find meaning in a world that wants to crush the human spirit and reverse the concept that we are all created in the image of God and are worthy of life and respect.

All God wants is to be remembered every now and then. A small price to pay but refused by many.

In that i'm sure we agree.

Draken
03-28-2005, 05:13 AM
In my humble opinion this is the most self-evident, easy to understand explanation I've read for a long time. Just my opinion.

---------------------------------

Incarnation of God in
Christianity and Hinduism

<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm#Incarnation%20of%20God%20in%20Christiani ty%20and%20Hinduism">Avatar - Incarnation of God</a>
By Swami Abhedananda
Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, Calcutta

The Lord says:

"Whenever religion declines and irreligion prevails, I manifest Myself to protect the righteous, to destroy evil, and to establish true religion".
-Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4, verses 7 & 8

...

According to the religion of Vedanta, the incarnation of God means the embodiment of divine qualities and divine powers. It takes place whenever and wherever such a manifestation is necessary. The blessed Lord Krishna, one of the great incarnations of Divinity, who appeared long before the birth of Christ, in speaking of divine incarnations, said:

‘Wherever true religion declines and irreligion prevails and whenever the vast majority of mankind, forgetting the highest ideal of life, travel on the path of unrighteousness which leads to the bottomless abyss of ignorance, and sorrow, the Supreme Being manifests His divine powers to establish righteousness and true spirituality, by assuming a human form and living in our midst, but at the same time showing to all that He is the real master of nature and absolutely free from all the bondages of the world and its laws’.

Such embodiments may take place at any time in any country. The Hindus believe that there have been many such incarnations of divinity in the past and that there will be many in the future. Krishna, Buddha, Jesus the Christ, Chaitanya and Ramakrishna, each one of these has been considered to be the embodiment of divine qualities and powers. The lives and deeds of all of them were superhuman, and consequently divine. They were full of the manifestations of such powers, as ordinary mortals do not possess.

A divine incarnation is one who shows from childhood that he is a born master of mind, body and senses, and the real lord of nature, yet who never forgets even for a moment that he has come to the world to help mankind. He is always conscious of his divine power, and he manifests divine glory through every action of his daily life. He never loses consciousness of his oneness with the eternal Truth, or the Father of the universe, the infinite source of wisdom and intelligence. He lives in the world like an embodied soul, possessing perfect peace, tranquillity, happiness and blissfulness, without depending upon the conditions and environments, which apparently bind the souls of ordinary mortals.

...

Ordinary people, whose spiritual eyes are not open, may not see the difference that exists between his [the incarnation of God] actions and those of a common mortal and may treat him like an ordinary man; but those, who are highly advanced in spirituality, who understand the true nature of the individual soul and of God and of their mutual relation, see the difference at once, recognize his divinity and worship him as the ideal embodiment of divine powers and divine qualities.

It is for this reason that the blessed Lord Krishna, the Hindu Christ, says in the Bhagavad Gita:

‘People who are deluded by My mysterious power of maya, do not know Me as unborn and unchanging; I am not manifest to them. They unintelligently regard Me in the light of an ordinary being with a material form which is the result of past actions, and know not that I assume at will glorious and holy forms for the protection of the world’.

...

The recent divine incarnation was one who appeared in the middle of the nineteenth century. He lived near Calcutta and his name was Ramakrishna. He is today worshipped by thousands of educated Hindus just in the same way as Jesus the Christ is adored and worshipped in Christendom. From his childhood he showed his power and set an example of absolute purity and divine spirituality, like an embodiment of those blessed qualities, which adorned the characters of previous incarnations, such as Krishna, Buddha, or Jesus the Christ. Those who had the good fortune to see and be with him even for a short time had their eyes open to the truth that he was absolutely super-human. Although he had received no school education, his wisdom was vast. He was the storehouse, as it were, of unlimited knowledge, and he showed at every moment of his life that he was the absolute master of his mind, body and senses, that he was entirely free from all the conditions that make an ordinary mortal a slave to passions and desires. He was like the personification of the Sermon on the Mount. No one could ever find the slightest flaw in his noble and divine character.

At one time, he was asked: ‘What is the difference between a holy sage and an incarnation of God who is called the Saviour of mankind?’ He answered: ‘A holy sage is one who has realized God through great pain, long prayers, and severe penances and after much trouble has saved himself from the attractions of the world, but he has not the power to save others; while a Saviour is one who can easily save hundreds without losing his own spirituality. A holy sage may be compared to a reed floating in the ocean of life, which cannot bear the weight of even a crow, but, when a Saviour descends, He easily carries thousands across the ocean like a large, powerful steamer (boat) which moves swiftly over the waters towing rafts and barges in its wake. The Saviour, like the most powerful locomotive, not only reaches the destination himself, but also at the same time draws with him loads of passengers eager to go to the abode of eternal Truth’.

Such is the power and strength of an incarnation of God. An ordinary person may strive and after a long struggle may attain to the realization of truth, which is salvation, but with a Saviour, this is not the way; he comes to help and save others. Whosoever worships and is devoted to any of these Saviours will, through that power of devotion alone, reaches the ultimate goal of all religions. As Jesus the Christ said: ‘Come unto Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest’. So the other incarnations of Divinity like Ramakrishna, Buddha and Krishna spoke to their followers, saying in the words of Krishna:

‘Giving up all the formalities of religion, come unto Me, and I will give thee rest and make thee free from sins; grieve not, I will also give thee eternal peace and everlasting happiness’.

Saturnino
03-28-2005, 05:25 AM
I believe we need here some guidelines about this preaching and religious matters. Ahmad, you work in this forum as an "agent provocateur". Whenever you see an opportunity, you bombard the thread with posts, you bury other people`s messages with cut and pasting two pages of the Quram and you never address the issue at hand. This leads to nothing.

I think we should stay at the points beings discussed. It is impossible not to discuss religion when we talk about Conspiracy, but it should be focused on the issue being discussed. If people want more details, they can PM you and ask for it.

We would like, for example, to understand what is the position of Muslims about the New World Order, or how the NWO is affecting daily life in Muslim countries. This would be something of interest to all. Someone explaining what Christians think about the NWO and how Revelation talks about it would also be an interesting thread. Same for Hindus, etc. Maybe I don`t AGREE with their views, but at least the issue would be pertinent to this Conspiracy forum.

But pushing your views over and over out of context, cutting and pasting large portions of your holy texts is not an honest approach.

Other people are guilty of the same error. See how this thread was started: church people are idolaters because they belive in Jesus Christ. Come on, what is the relevance of this is a conspiracy forum ? The person doing this only wanted to vent his hatred of Christians. Not a constructive thing.

Let's try to expose concisely what we believe and let it be. If others want to believe, that`s fine, if not, that`s their problem. I am a Christian myself, but I believe that my words by themselves will never be enough to convert anyone. God does that. Therefore, rambling and rambling won`t do any good to anyone.

truebeliever
03-28-2005, 05:43 AM
I can dig it.

Christ still works for me.

Westerners in general should not try to take on the clothes of the East and make them fit. I am a Westerner and can never take on the passivity of the East.

Christ was both, feminine and recieving as well as chasing scum from the temple and preaching with masculine clarity.

It gets down to what fits for the individual. Certainly, i cant argue with the premise of your post Drak.

When i had just turned 22 (1992) i had a horrible thing happen. I was distraught for 2 weeks. Finally i accepted the inevitable and felt a degree of peace.

I had been given the job of unloading a pile of firewood from a trailor. It had been sitting their for 2 weeks while I recovered my senses. While I travelled back and forth from the trailor to the backyard a sudden feeling of complete peace came over me. It was like being on Morphine but far more intense.

In this sudden state i realised I was the entire universe. I was and always had been EVERYTHING for all time. I could count my red blood cells. I could 'feel' myself in every cell of my body. I knew that all disease was an expression of an ego ignoring the signals of the body, of 3 billion years of evoloution.

This intense experience lasted for 10 minutes and gradually trailed off over 2 hours.

It was a divine visitation. Christ Consciousness. Cosmic Consciousness. Transcendence. Experienced by many throught time. A direct experience of the 'numinous'. The 'Golden World'.

It took me 10 years to become stable again after that experience. You are never the same again. In a 'dry' Western world there are little places to turn. In the East it is accepted. Luckily, as fate would have it, i had a mentor who knew the experience well.

I knew then that we were all 'splinters of the God head'. Truly we were ALL children of God. So yes Ahmed, I agree with you on many things.

For a time I had no need of Christ or even God. After all...I WAS GOD. A dangerous place to be.

After a time I came to marvel at the fact that Christ was indeed the PERFECT VESSEL for the divine experience. He integrated that experience. Took it in his stride. That is amazing.

He was totally conscience of his divine origens. He was much further advanced than any Eastener who has not developed fully the conscious state but is still caught in the garden of Eden.

I dont have much time for 'Hindu Masters'. They usually turn out to be paedophile, bisexual heathens. Well documented.

Whatever works for the individual. Christ works for me.

Ahmad
03-28-2005, 06:00 AM
Peace all,

Santurino: "I believe that my words by themselves will never be enough to convert anyone."


This is the one thing i agree with you on, however for me it's not a hobby to preach! it's the only function i can see for myself, i believe i am a messenger of God.

The book you are taking lightly is from your Lord, in 1974 an incontrovertible proof (unlike the bible code) that confirms it was revealed.

That proof was rejected by the muslims because it condemned their idolworship.

What is idolworship? and what is its relation to the conspiracy?

I will try to make short, but please for your sake reflect on this for a while.

Satan wants to claim followers.

Satan wants to distracts us, the human beings from God.

Satan uses the creatures as a tool to do so.

Once you idolize a creature, any creature, you have joined the NWO cult.

Why?

The conspiracy is just that, distracting us from worshipping the one god into worshipping several gods.

The brainwashing starts from childhood, someone starts bullying you... you get afraid of him...if this lasts he becomes your god (the extreme emotions of attraction or repulsion create the state of worship, the bond with the creature instead of God).

Later someone tells you that there was a man who was tortured beyond imagination, yet he was so pure that he healed the blind and called for love, he is inducing a trauma to indoctrinate you into the (creature-worshiping cult).

Once you get indoctrinated, you will fall victim to Satan, the indoctrination may further manifest itself in a state of idolizing everything, you start relating the powers (to harm or benefit..e.g: skill, beauty, might..etc) to the creature himself.

That's why many people fall in worshipping celebrities, presidents, bosses, spouses, and even material things, money, cars..etc

Whatever occupies your mind most of the time is your god, if it is the NWO conspiracy then it has turned into a god enslaving you in a bond that will pull you down to hell.

All the miseries in this world is because of this, the failure to relate the powers of the creatures to the Creator.

Why fear the creatures? because you have been indoctrinated, they have become your god.

Why be obsessed with them? because you fail to see beyond them, you fail to see the Source, God.
-----------------------------------------------

[2:165] Yet, some people set up idols to rival GOD, and love them as if they are GOD. Those who believe love GOD the most. If only the transgressors could see themselves when they see the retribution! They will realize then that all power belongs to GOD alone, and that GOD's retribution is awesome.

[3:79] Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.

[4:116] GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray.

truebeliever
03-28-2005, 06:16 AM
Ahmed...Christ WAS God, incarnate for a short time on the Earth. There is no idol worship.

Worrying over the Pope and all the Saints IS idol worship.

Selling your soul for money to buy trinkets is indeed idol worship.

Selling your soul for the love of a woman is idol worship.

You are right in many things.

I believe Christ was a perfect incarnation of God. I dont know this for sure. Somehow it makes sense. It feels right.

What more can be said?

DaddyLongLeg
03-29-2005, 07:42 AM
Hi TB

Sorry to pick, but I felt compelled to bring this up.
Ahmed...Christ WAS God, incarnate for a short time on the Earth. There is no idol worship.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him (Jesus), Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Matthew 19:17 And he (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus clearly tells us in this passage that he is not God. Also, Jesus clearly states that life eternal if found through the ten commandments of God.

To worship Jesus in the face of this then is definitely idol worship. What more can I say?

truebeliever
03-29-2005, 08:42 PM
DLL, you can pick the contradictions in the New Testament till you're blue in the face.

Christ himself cried on the cross "God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That itself says it all but I assure you if you go through the bible you will find just as many statements to the contrary.

Again, we are missing the forest for the tree's.

Find what you will in it all, or find nothing.

I take the bible on many levels. The paradox's and confusing statements ar'nt a problem for me.

My sneaking suspicion is that Jesus Christ was a mortal man who had an intense experience of the divine at a very early age.

He was unique in that instead of going mad or indeed collapsing in a pile after such an experience, he assimilated it and spoke as a true Master. Beyond any other that has ever lived.

He was the perfect vessal for such an experience.

Then again, maybe he was the first perfect 'conscious', incarnation of God.

The New Testament has been under assault from the day it first appeared. Dont confuse the fallible story tellers with what happened or did'nt happen.

There are an awful lot of ancient texts you can disbelieve before the New Testament.

Being able to tolerate uncertainty and doubt about something is the mark of maturity. If you are waiting for the perfect story to appear you will be waiting along time.

I could pick apart the life of Mother Theresa. A complete manipulating bitch to many who dealt with her. Will that lesson her effect on so many?

What of Ghandi? A wanker to his wife and those around him at times.

Give yourself a break.

P.S On rereading i sound a little condascending. Apolagies.

psholtz
03-29-2005, 10:25 PM
DDL, I agree w/ what you're saying. Jesus was a man.. a man through whom God worked, but a mortal man nonetheless. Christ is that from God which is Divine (and immortal), and it's Christ (imho) that worked through Jesus.. but as you're saying, even Jesus admits that he's not "God"..

TrueBeliever, what you're saying is "true" from the standpoint of looking at religion from a highly educated, enligthened viewpoint. which is what you're doing and I applaud you for it.. the but problem is that 99.9% of all people in the world don't look at religion like this, and for 99.9% of all Christians out there, the practice of the Christian religion has degraded into little more than idolatorous Jesus-worship.. (rather than seeking after the Christ from God).

Again, try replacing the white, Aryan-ized IMAGE of Jesus that it's churches all through the (western) world today w/ an image of what Jesus REALLY looked like.. and then see how long before all of Christiandom apostatizes from the religion.. it wouldn't be very long at all (sadly), imho...

rushdoony
03-29-2005, 10:53 PM
Jesus Is the Christ the Son of God

Acts 9:19-22
For several days he [Saul/Paul] was with the disciples at Damascus. And in the synagogues immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, "He is the Son of God." And all who heard him were amazed, and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called on this name? And he has come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests." But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.
In preaching through the book of Acts last year I arrived at the story of Paul's conversion in chapter 9. Then came the summer and our move to the new sanctuary and all the special focuses we have had since last spring. Now I feel very strongly led to pick up the series again.

The more I thought and prayed about it the more convinced I became that to preach from the book of Acts during the last year in our old sanctuary and the first year in our new sanctuary would drive home the point of last week's message, namely, that the authenticity of worship in these buildings must prove itself in how we spread the praise of God outside these buildings.

And the book of Acts is the inspired story of how the praise of God was spreading in the first century. So it is a great model and a great incentive for what worship should move us to do. It's true that worship is the ultimate aim of all the universe and all our ministry as a church. But it's also true that as long as there is sin and pain and lostness in the world, worship will not only be the goal but also the fuel of ministry and missions.

So if God uses the book of Acts in worship to ignite the fires of ministry and missions, then our worship will be vindicated, and the memory of our old sanctuary will be honored and the purpose of our new sanctuary will be realized.

You recall that Saul was a pharisee utterly devoted to stamping out the new Christian movement. But Jesus sovereignly intervened in his life and utterly shocked and stunned him with a bright light on the Damascus road. Paul was blinded and didn't eat or drink for three days as he watched his whole world turn upside down.

The Jesus that he thought was dead was not dead. And not only was he not dead, but he was the living Lord of the universe. Jesus was able to make light shine into the world, and speak audibly to humans on earth, and strike a man blind, and give visions in prayer, and send a man named Ananias with the word that Saul was Jesus' chosen instrument to spread praise to the nations. So Paul's whole world-view collapsed in Damascus. And was rebuilt with the great, unshakable, stone pillars of truth about Jesus.

For several days he spends time with the disciples in Damascus (v. 19) and then, incredibly, he starts to preach and debate in the synagogues. And Luke tells us in two crisp statements what was at the heart of Saul's new world-view. Jesus, the hated, rejected, crucified criminal, is the Son of God and the long hoped-for Messiah. Verse 20: "And in the synagogue immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, 'He is the Son of God.'" And verse 22: "But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ (which means messiah, the anointed one, the fulfiller of all God's promises to Israel).'"

Isn't it amazing that the last words we hear coming out of Saul's mouth before his conversion are, "Who are you, Lord" (v. 5); and the first words we hear coming out of his mouth after his conversion are, "Jesus is the Son of God" (v. 20). Surely Luke wants us to see that this is foundational to being a Christian and foundational to the rest of Paul's life as the greatest missionary who ever lived. "Jesus is the Son of God."

What I am praying will happen now in this message is that God will reveal his Son to you in new ways so you can enjoy fellowship and life in him.


What does it mean that Jesus is the Son of God?


1. It means that he is God.

Paul said in Colossians 2:9, "In him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" (cf. 1:13,19). He said in Philippians 2:6, "Though he was in the form of God he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself." Hebrews 1:2-3 says, "In these last days God has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of [God's] glory and the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power." Hebrews 1:8-9 says, "Of the Son [God] he says, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever." And John writes, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God . . . and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth" (John 1:1,14).

When Paul said that Jesus is the Son of God we understand him to mean that Jesus is God. He is not a mere man or a high-ranking angel in human form. He is truly man and truly God.

When we call him Son of God we mean that he is of the same nature as God. Fathers create things unlike themselves, but they beget Sons like themselves. C. S. Lewis puts it like this:

When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make (or create), you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, and man makes a wireless set (or a computer) . . .

So when we say that Jesus is the Son of God we mean that God has begotten his Son in his very same divine nature, nothing less, from all eternity. Begetting is a metaphor, a picture, that tries to hold two truths together: (1) God the Father is not God the Son and God the Son is not God the Father; they are distinct persons, distinct centers of consciousness and can relate to each other. But (2) the Father and the Son are one God not two Gods, one essence, one divine nature. From all eternity, without any beginning, the Father has always had a perfect image of himself and a divine reflection or radiance equal to himself, namely, the Son.

So the first thing we mean when we say, "Jesus is the Son of God," is that he is God.

2. The second thing it means is that God has a unique love for Jesus as his Son.

In Colossians Paul describes Jesus as the Son of God's love, implying that the love for his divine Son is utterly unique from the love God has for all his human children by adoption. "God has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love."

And two times in the earthly life of Jesus--once at Jesus' baptism and once on the mount of transfiguration God the Father broke in and said, "This is my beloved Son." And in Ephesians 1:6 Jesus is simply called God's "loved one."

So when we call Jesus the Son of God we should have in our minds the truth that he is God and that there is a relationship of infinite love between God the Father and God the Son that is different from all other loves.

But let's ask why this was so crucial for Saul and for Luke that they put it right at the front of the ministry. The first thing Saul proclaims is, "Jesus is the Son of God." Why?

Consider these four truths about the Son of God and see if you don't think the truth of Jesus' Sonship deserves first place.

(1) 1 John 5:12 says, "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life."

(2) 1 John 2:23 says, "No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also." So to have a relationship with God the Father and to have eternal life you have to confess Jesus as the Son of God and "have" Jesus as the Son of God--that is, be in fellowship with him (1:3; 1 Cor. 1:9).

(3) Galatians 4:4-5 gives the foundation of all this hope: "When the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son . . . to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." The Father sent his one and only divine Son so that he might have many human sons by adoption. "We were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Rom. 5:10).

(4) Finally, Galatians 2:20 says that we "live by faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us."

So it was the coming and the dying of the Son that gave us the gift of adoption. So if you confess the Son you have the Father also--have him as Father. And if you have the Son and the Father then you have everlasting life. And not only for the ages to come, but right now the Son of God works for us so that our lives should be described as living by faith in the Son of God.

So it is not surprising that Saul and Luke would put this truth at the very beginning of Paul's missionary preaching: "Jesus is the Son of God."

It needs to be right at the front end of our Christian lives too. It needs to be one of the central pillars in our understanding of reality. Jesus is the Son of God.

I want you all to know the Son of God and to have personal, intimate, hour by hour, trustful, saving fellowship with him; and to have the Father with him; and to have life in them; and to enjoy the exalted place of adoption through the Spirit of the Son; and the gift of redemption and reconciliation and conformity to the Son; and the power of victory over the devil. "The Son of God appeared to destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

I want all this for you. So how do you come to know and have the Son like that? Jesus said in Matthew 11:27, "No one knows the Son except the Father." So how will I ever come to know him? Then in Matthew 16:15 Jesus asks the disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Do you remember how Jesus responded? "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Knowing Jesus as the Son of God is not something that happens by the mere mental and emotional powers resident in human nature. There must be a divine work of grace beyond flesh and blood, so that in and through and behind the Bible and the preaching and the miracles we see the glory of the Son. We taste the divine reality and know him supernaturally.

Is it an accident that Paul describes his conversion like this in Galatians 1:16, "When God was pleased to reveal his Son to me ("reveal"! the same word Jesus used to describe Peter's experience), in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood . . . but I went away into Arabia." Just like Jesus said to Peter: "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven."

So how do you come to know Jesus as the Son of God and to have fellowship with the Son and walk by faith in the Son and have life in the Son?

There does have to be intelligible preaching or teaching or witnessing about the Biblical story of Jesus. Our text says (Acts 9:22) that Saul "confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ." An intelligible, valid presentation of Jesus is essential. But persuasive words alone do not open the eyes of the heart. They tried to kill Paul in Damascus. "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you Simon but my Father who is in heaven."

"The God who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6).

How then do you come to know and to have and to fellowship with the Son of God? You listen to his word, his story (Luke 9:35). And you pray for the revelation of the Father--the eyes to see the glory (Mark 9:24). And by grace you believe and triumph. "Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5).
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/91/100691.html

DaddyLongLeg
03-30-2005, 05:05 AM
Hi TB

I think you are right to say that Jesus was a mortal man who had an intense experience of the divine at an early age, but what you don’t seem to realise is that such an experience does not cause you to go mad or collapse in a heap. It frees you from confusion and grants you an all-encompassing clarity.

We are all “perfect vessels” for such an experience. Why would Jesus tell us to follow his path if we are incapable of it?

I hope that one of these days you will understand that the mark of maturity is actually clarity of understanding free from doubt and uncertainty. Why put up with doubt and uncertainty when you don’t have to?

I became connected to God without having read the Bible at all. But now I read the Bible because (a) I have a copy, and (b) because I enjoy reading it because I understand it.

Let me tell you what took place in my life for this to happen.

First of all, God didn’t come to me, I made the effort to seek God. One day I said to myself “Okay David, I’m going to believe in God just a tiny little bit and see how it feels”. At the end of the day nothing much had changed except that it felt okay to believe in God. Over the next few days I decided to increase my belief because I actually felt comfortable with it (no one else knew what I was doing inside so I felt that if the shoe didn’t fit, I could simply just take it off again!) It was after the first few days while lying in bed that something strange happened to me: it felt like the presence of God flowed into my body, or my spirit perhaps? (I’m not really sure what it was to be honest). I actually rejected it to begin with and the feeling faded away. It was then that I knew it was true. My belief in God then began to expand at its own pace: no longer did I have to say to myself “Okay David, believe a bit more today” because I simply did believe and it increased on its own.

Then, after weeks my life completely turned around. The things I knew I wanted and needed in my life began to miraculously present themselves. Before this I was an outright intellectual atheist who was totally confused, consumed by selfish desire, arrogance and depression.

You should try it and be amazed. The key thing though is that you must believe it with all your heart and not just on an intellectual level.

Anyway, this is why I can confidently say that Jesus was not God but a mere mortal man just like myself who worked it all out much quicker than I.

Thanks God!

p.s. apologies accepted honourably TB

truebeliever
03-30-2005, 05:55 AM
When I say 'a direct experience of the divine', thats alot different from finding your life goes much better when you believe in God.

To experience the divine directly, to be struck down by a vision of Christ on your way to Damascus, is completely overwhelming.

Most who experience it on a deep level never recover fully or take half a lifetime to absorb the experience.

Others experience this world in a smaller way and are amazed and enriched by the event.

For Christ, with his utter depth of understanding and conviction must have experienced it on a profound level. At a young age.

To not be overwhelmed by it and in fact to carry it as consciously as he did is miracle enough for me. That is what I mean by the perfect vessal.

Mental health institutions are filled with those crippled by the glimpse into the other world.

Still, there is enough evidence, written in an acceptable time frame to account for the many miracles witnessed by so many.

I am prepared to accept that Jesus Christ was more than just the perfect vessal for a divine experience. I am prepared to accept, that for a short time, 2000 years ago, God incarnated into human form and offered himself up as a sacrifice for the sins of the human race.

I have read and heard many "nothing but" explanations for the story of Christ.

The stories of him marrying Mary Magdelain etc... and living out his life cannot possibly stack up against the multiple accounts of his life.

These new accounts are extremely recent and come at a time when dark forces wish to undermine Christianity at all costs.

For there to a be a believable adjunct to the story of Christ it would have to contain as many seperate accounts of Christs life and been around just as long. They are recent phenomena and do not stack up.

By any account the New Testament passes the requirement for the accuracy of an ancient text. Years before first written account, number of copies made and alternative narratives.

I'm sure it's not %100 accurate. What is?

There are a large number of passages where Christ makes it clear that he is God. Not just 'the son' as we take it to mean. I am looking them up. I admit that I thought another more bible savvy person would have leapt to my intellectual aid by now but it seems I will have to troll through the NT myself...and me NO expert on the matter.

DLL, you allude I am some sort of intellectual only, on the matter. I understand where your're coming from completely in your personal story of faith. I did not come willingly to the table myself. I was most certainly dragged.

Will get back to you.

DaddyLongLeg
03-30-2005, 08:37 AM
Hi again TB

What is more important to you TB, your personal relationship with God, or the doings of the New World Order people?

I accept that they are both important to you, but which do you choose over the other?

Ahmad
03-30-2005, 10:20 AM
Peace be unto you,

Is Jesus God or His son?

Rushdoony quoted this: "So when we say that Jesus is the Son of God we mean that God has begotten his Son in his very same divine nature, nothing less, from all eternity. Begetting is a metaphor, a picture, that tries to hold two truths together: (1) God the Father is not God the Son and God the Son is not God the Father; they are distinct persons, distinct centers of consciousness and can relate to each other. But (2) the Father and the Son are one God not two Gods, one essence, one divine nature."


Do you really understand this illogical reasoning, the author gives totally two contradicting ideas and want to convince us that there is no contradiction!

If Jesus is the son of God, then he can not be God!. If Jesus is God, then he can not be the son of himself!!

Perhaps the words of this famous Christian scholar may clarify the missing link.
-------------------------------------------

John Hick : Philosopher of Religion & Theologian
Danforth professor of the philosophy of religion, emeritus, the Claremont Graduate University, California; H.G. Wood professor of theology, emeritus, the University of Birmingham, UK; honorary professor of the University of Wales,UK; Fellow of the Institute for Advanced Research in Arts & Social Sciences, University of Birmingham, UK. Vice-President, British Society for the Philosophy of Religion; Vice-President, The World Congress of Faiths.


I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me’ (14:6)

"It is generally held today that the great ‘I am’ sayings of the fourth Gospel, which I quoted a minute ago, cannot be attributed to the historical Jesus but are words put into his mouth by a Christian writer some 60-70 years later, and also that Jesus’ sayings in the Synoptic Gospels cannot be taken to constitute a claim to be God incarnate - as Dunn says, ‘there was no real evidence in the earliest Jesus-tradition of what could fairly be called a consciousness of divinity’. If this comes to anyone as a bit of a shock, that is because although theologically educated ministers of the church know this, they do not mention it in their sermons. And I must confess that I myself have never said it in a sermon, but only in settings such as this. This silence has been going on for a very long time, and of course the longer you put off saying something difficult - difficult to the hearers - the harder it becomes to say it. When some years ago, 1977, a group of us, who included the Regius Professor of Divinity at Oxford, and a former Regius at Cambridge, then Warden of Keble College, Oxford, and the Principal of Cuddesdon Theological College, Oxford, and others, published a book called The Myth of God Incarnate in which we discussed this question openly and frankly, we were attacked and reviled, not for saying what the scholarly world had long known, but for saying it so publicly and with such an alarming title. But today, more than twenty years later, the whole subject is much more openly discussed, and I don’t have any hesitation in discussing it here."


"It’s also well known today - another theme of that book - that the term ‘son of God’ was widely used in the ancient world. Jesus was by no means the only person to whom the term was applied. In particular, within Jesus’ own religion, Judaism, Adam was called the son of God, and is so called in Luke’s Gospel where Jesus’ ancestry is traced back to ‘the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God’ (tou Seth tou Adam tou Theou’, 3:38), angels were called sons of God, Israel as a whole was called God’s son, and indeed any outstandingly pious Jew could be called a son of God. And the ancient Hebrew kings were enthroned as son of God - hence the words of Psalm 2:7, ‘Thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee’. But no one within Judaism thought that God literally begot sons. The phrase ‘son of God’ was clearly metaphorical. ‘son of'’ meant ‘true servant of’ or sometimes ‘given a special divine mission by’ or more generally ‘in the spirit of’. The term was a very familiar metaphor within Judaism and never implied deity. But as Christianity expanded beyond its Jewish roots into the Graeco-Roman world the metaphorical son of God was gradually transformed in Christian thinking into the metaphysical God the Son, second person of a divine Trinity. And it is this epoch-making development that is under question today."

Excerpt from: http://www.johnhick.org.uk/article2.shtml

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[112:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.

[112:2] "The Absolute GOD.

[112:3] "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.

[112:4] "None equals Him."

rushdoony
03-30-2005, 03:24 PM
The Truth about the Trinity
The word 'trinity' is typically defined in Theology as the union of three divine persons in one God. Although the word trinity is not found in the Bible, it is a term that man uses to describe the Godhead as we see it defined within the Word of God. Though God is one, there is clear evidence that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons of the Godhead. A good explanation of the trinity is best stated this way.

Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

A great amount of detail can be gleaned from this statement. Each word in this definition was chosen for a specific purpose. Before we can really understand what this statement is saying, we must define some of the words within it.

Being is what God is. It is His existence. We are human beings, but different people. There is only one God, and that God is one in being.

Person is who God is. We do not use the word to mean a human being. I am a human being, but who I am defines my personal attributes. We as humans are one in being and in person, but God is not limited by human nature. God is one in being but three in person. This means that each person of the Godhead possess all of the fullness of that Godhead, but each person is distinct from the other. When we say person, we mean it in a personal sense.

We must not confuse these two terms when discussing the Godhead. There is only one God in being, but we cannot deny the three distinct persons of the Godhead. The Bible is very clear that there is one God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct from one another. According to scriptures both of these are true. As we study this, we will see this more clearly.

Coequal does not mean that all persons must have the same role. In his humanity Jesus was actually submissive to the Father. He said nothing that the Father did not tell Him to say (John 13:49) and even stated that the Father was greater than Himself (John 14:28). This, however, does not mean that He is not coequal with the Father. Willingly taking upon a role of submission for a time does not negate His equality within the Godhead eternally.

Christ willingly set aside His divine rights and priviledges, so that He could take the form of a servant. While His role in redemption required this submissiveness, it does not mean that He as a person of the Godhead was not equal with the Father. Consider the following example.

There is an old movie called "Brubaker" about a man who just became the warden of a prison. He had heard the former warden was corrupt and he wanted to see for himself just how deep the corruption went. He decided to begin his job undercover. Instead of going into the prison and demanding to take control (as was his right, for he was the warden) he entered the prison as a fellow inmate. While he was undercover as a prisoner he was subject to the authority of those in control. He had to follow the rules and do what was told or face the consequences. While he had the authority and power to over rule the officers who held him prisoner, until he actually exercised that power, he was treated as a prisoner like the rest of the population. As a prisoner, he was submissive to the officer in charge, but his true status as warden made him ruler over everyone.

Christ willingly chose to become submissive in his humanity so that He could fulfill the requirements for our redemption. After He had completed what needed to be done, He did not stay in His submissive role. He is now exalted to the highest place.

Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NIV)

Coeternal Since God is one in being and God exists eternally, the doctrine of the trinity maintains that all persons of the Godhead exist eternally as well. Some people will claim that the Son did not exist in the beginning, but the Bible is clear that all persons of the Godhead have existed throughout all eternity. We see that all persons had a role in creation.

Father: Deut 32:6 Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you? (NIV)

Son: Col 1:13-16 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (NIV)

Holy Spirit: Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (NIV)

These verses show us that the Father, Son and Spirit were all there playing an active role in creation. Were these merely different manifestations that were referring to the same person or were these persons distinct? We find the answer in Genesis.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, (NIV)

If there is no distinction of persons in the Godhead, then who is the us and our that God was speaking to?

Was it an angel? It can't be an angel for God created the world alone.

Isa 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, (NIV)

Was God actually counseling with His own will?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (KJV)

Though this verse says that God does things after the counsel of His own will, this in no way suggests that God talks to himself as though His will is another person.

Was it another god?

Isa 43:10 ... Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. (NIV)

The Us clearly has to Be God, who alone created the world, without being another god. There is only one explanation and that is that God is a trinity. He is one God yet three in person. The Bible is clear that God is one, but let us examine that phrase for a moment.


The One Being that IS God

Trinitarians believe that God is one in being. They do not believe in more than one God, but they do recognize that their one God consists of the Father, Son and Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, yet they are not three Gods, they are one.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (NIV)

We see here that God is one. The being of God is united, unique and indivisible. Trinitarians are strong believers in the fact that there is only one God, that apart from God there is no salvation, and that God is one in being. However, we can see from the first verse in the Bible that God is more than one in person.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God[Elohiym] created the heavens and the earth. (NIV)

The actual word for God that was used here is Elohiym, which is a plural meaning of the word God, which is Elowahh. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and their words were not poorly chosen. The words that were chosen reveal to us who God is.

If Elohiym (the plural form of Elowahh) was used in Genesis 1:1, we must realize that it is either speaking of the persons of God, or else it contradicts the verse in Deuteronomy that clearly states the Lord is one. What is even more significant about Deuteronomy 6:4 is the word that was used for one.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one[Echaad]. (NIV)

The wording in the original texts for the word one, is Echaad, which actually translates very poorly into the English language. In Hebrew it literally means compound unity. We see this word used in other places in the Bible with the same meaning. In Genesis 1:5 where it says "the evening and the morning were the first day." Echaad was the word used for first. That one-day consisted of both the evening and the morning, which gives us a compound unity, that makes up one day. This same word was also used in Genesis 2:24, when God instructed the husband and wife to become one flesh. This too, is the same word Echaad which means compound unity.

Gen 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one[Echaad] flesh. (NIV)

There is a Hebrew word for absolute oneness. It is "Yachid" as used in Genesis 22:2 where God tells Abraham to "take thine only son Isaac" to sacrifice him. This word, however, was not chosen to describe God. There is only One God, that is clear, but it also clear that within that one God, there exists a compound unity.

Three Distinct Persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Things become quite evident when we examine closely what something means rather than just what it says. When we read about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit we see apparent relationships between the three. But what does that mean, that they have relationships to one another? Let us define relationship.

re·la·tion·ship n.
1. The condition or fact of being related; connection or association.
2. Connection by blood or marriage; kinship.
3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other: has a close relationship with his siblings.
4. A romantic or sexual involvement1

In order for a relationship to exist, there has to be more than one person with which to be related, connected or associated with. Relationships take two. There is no relationship without an outside person to have a relationship with. So let us look at just how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit associated with one another.

The baptism of Jesus is one of the most beautiful examples of how the Father, Son and Spirit were all present together. Even better than that, it also illustrates a relationship between them.

Luke 3:21-22 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." (NIV)

Above we see clear evidence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit descended upon the Son. And then we hear the Father speak to His Son and he shares a very powerful statement about His relationship with the Son.

"You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Jesus is the Father's Son whom He loves and is pleased with! These are relational terms. He is clearly talking to another person that He has feelings for.

There is also proof in the New Testament that this relationship existed since the beginning. The Son, though made flesh in the New Testament had a relationship with the Father since the beginning. Listen to what Jesus said in His prayer to the Father in the 17th chapter of John.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began...
John 17:24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. (NIV)

The love that the Father had for the Son existed since before the world began! Jesus did not merely say that the Father loved the plan of me or the thought of me. Jesus clearly said the Father "loved me before the creation of the world." Jesus was not only loved he also had glory with the Father. They shared in that experience and love!

The distinction between the Father and Son not only existed in the beginning and during Christ's life here on earth, it has continued and will continue throughout eternity. The Son has not merely taken on the role of the Father, he sits at the Father's right hand and continually mediates to the Father on our behalf. This is an active continuous relationship that goes on until Christ returns again!

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (NIV)

Heb 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (NIV)

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (NIV)

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. (NIV)

Jesus has to be another person in order for Him to intercede on our behalf. Like relationships, a mediator must go between two separate parties. Mediators do not mediate on their own behalf. If Jesus were merely the Father in the flesh, then we would have no need for mediation or intercession. Those terms would be pointless. Both terms means that the mediator/intercessor must go between two separate parties, not one party and them self.

Jesus stated that the law requires there to be at least two witnesses to testify on someone's behalf. Jesus clearly stated that He had two witnesses. If Jesus is the Father, then He lacked a witness, and this statement is false.

John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." (NIV)

We can clearly see the distinction between the Father and the Son. They were not merely different manifestations of one person for they actually have a relationship with each other. The Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son and He too has an interactive relationship with both of them.

The Person of the Holy Spirit

So many people miss the biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit is a person. They will refer to Him as it or think He is just some strange power or force. This simply is not true and we can see that clearly in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is a person. He spoke to men and when doing so He referred to Himself using personal pronouns.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (NIV)

Jesus also referred to the Holy Spirit as a person.

John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me. (NIV)

The Holy Spirit has feelings and expresses emotions just as any person would. This verse clearly tells us that the Holy Spirit is capable of experiencing grief.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (NIV)

Like the Son, the Holy Spirit is God, but distinct from the other persons of the Godhead. We know that when Ananias and Saphira lied to the Holy Spirit, they did not simply lie to some mystical being, but to God Himself.

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." (NIV)

But this was not simply the Son or Father manifest as the Spirit, this is another person of the Godhead that was sent by the Father through the son. The distinction is clear.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- (NIV)

John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. (NIV)

So we see that we have 3 distinct persons of the Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We must not forget, however, that there is only one God. Each of these persons makes up one God.

Only One God

We have just shown how the Bible is clear that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are distinct persons. The Bible is also clear that there is only one God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. (NIV)

Deut 32:39 "See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. (NIV)

Though there is only one God, the Bible also tells us that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God. We know the Father is God.

John 8:41 "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." (NIV)

Jesus Christ was also God. He wasn't killed for being a prophet, a good man or a lesser god. Jesus was killed because he made himself equal with the Almighty God. The Jews rejected who he was and plotted to kill him because he claimed to be God.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (NIV)

John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (NIV)

Thomas proclaimed that glorious truth after Christ's resurrection. Jesus accepted his testimony, because Jesus IS God.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (NIV)

And we can remember the verse above, that tells us how Ananias and Saphira lied to God when they lied to the Holy Spirit. This is because the Holy Spirit is God.

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." (NIV)

There is only one God but the Father, the Son and the Spirit are each distinct from one another yet they all claim to be God. With all the scriptural evidence we can only come to one conclusion.

Conclusions

We cannot say there is an absolute oneness of God that insists that the Son and Holy Spirit are merely different manifestations of the Father. This negates many of the verses that prove they have relationships with each other. It also disproves Jesus' only testimony about himself, that He has two witnesses, both himself and the Father. More importantly it downplays the significance of the death that had to take place in order for our sins to be forgiven. That penalty was real, the death was real, yet when God the Son died, the Father was alive to raise Him again.

Acts 13:32 "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.' 34 The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: "'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.' 35 So it is stated elsewhere: "'You will not let your Holy One see decay.' (NIV)

We also cannot say that there are three Gods. The Bible does not leave that option open to us. We have clearly shown that there is only one God. We cannot just make up a hierarchy that puts the Father as the Almighty God and the others as lesser Gods. God said there is NO God besides Him.

Deut 32:39"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. (NIV)

The only solution that makes sense and keeps the scriptures from contradicting themselves is that God is a trinity. God is one in being, but three in person. We may not understand how it can work that way nor fathom exactly what God is like, but we can understand what the Bible reveals to us about Him. The only biblical conclusion that one can draw is a belief in a God that is one in being but separate in person. The Bible teaches this to be true.

2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (NIV)

Other helpful sources

What is the Trinity - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
The Trinity - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry offers a chart that reveals that all persons of the Godhead share the same titles according to the scriptures.
A Brief Definition of the Trinity - By James White.
The Forgotten Trinity - By James White. Order this book here.


Back to Guided By Truth
http://www.guidedbytruth.com/trinityp.html

truebeliever
03-30-2005, 08:01 PM
Thanks Rush, I like the "Brubaker" metaphor. One of my favourite movies also.

I am trying to get a hold of "The Alpha Course". In one presentation the minister makes some brilliant observations on the argument over whether Christ was God or simply a messenger.

I will post it in web format first chance I get.

DLL, their is nothing to choose. When I read and write on the NWO I am doing God's work. I am engaging in activities that come naturally to me. When i try to go off and begin a career and forget about it all I get physically and mentally unwell.

My interest in this subject has cost me. My interest in the TRUTH has cost me even more. Someone wrote that in becoming a Christian (or Muslim for that matter) you find it increasingly impossible to live a lie. I cannot live a lie. I cannot tell people what they want to hear even though I know it will make life easier.

I genuinely admire people who are deep into this subject and manage to work and live, raise children. I find myself so utterly emotionally affected by everything about this society that I cannot switch it off.

I cannot repress my emotional response to it all.

I do not go to Church and do not hang out with 'religious' people. My knowledge of the bible is purely bits and peices picked up as I go along.

Whatever ones personal view on this subject, I'm sure God, the Life Force, is extremely pleased that human beings are discussing the nature and forms of divinity.

I would add DLL that central to the NWO doctrine is the unsettling and finally the end of Religion and worship of a supernatural God. To be replaced by 'Secular Humanism', another name for 'Dialectical Materialism' as expounded by Karl Marx.

You will find the holy passages of Secular Humanism in such statements as "The U.N Statement On The Rights Of The Child". Or "Earth Day". Or "Womens Day" etc...their is no need now for Holy Messengers of God. We'll just think up great ideas inbetween lectures at University.

When Christianity is undermined it is more than just the belief in a supernatural God. Christianity runs through our legal system and our political system. All lead to the ultimate power lying in the arms of a supernatural God and NOT the State.

Once you have rid the ultimate values of the Christian or Muslim faith you can start making up your own...like, "i dont like those protesters, make up a law where we can arrest and kill them at will as enemy's of the State".

Christianity assures us we are made in the creators image and are special, important. The individual matters. I'm sure there's something similar in the Quaran.

The current OWNERS of the planet wish to rid us of this idea and tell us that the good of the many is more important than individual rights of the few.

The good of the many however, is ONLY gauranteed when the rights of the individual to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is maintained.

ALL tyrants and dictators have used the idea of the good of the many to maintain their tyrannical grip on a system of power and privelidge.

The Beast system being introduced before our eye's is designed to quell the creative spirit and direct individuals life force into activities that maintain a system designed for the ultimate benefit of an Elite of rich and powerful. This is ANTI GOD. It is Luciferian in nature. Power over people.

When you fight the NWO in ALL it's forms you are doing the work of God. You are engaging in a fight with Lucifer himself as he dwells in all our hearts.

Ahmed is right in many ways. There is no God but God. I just believe that should'nt stop you doing Gods work and that means I post here when society dictates I should be busying myself with meaningless toil so I can buy more trinkets.

Best To You.

Mawashi
03-30-2005, 08:42 PM
TB, for a sandgroper you're a pretty switched-on guy!

Jokes aside, I'm basically on the same wavelength as you. I'm not big on organised religion, though I did go to the local Church of Christ when I was home, but got sick of a lot of the petty squabbling that went on. I believe I've had prayers answered, and thus I believe in God and His Son.

Anyway, I too believe I'm doing God's work when I inform people about the NWO, and like you there is a cost to it in terms of it consuming a pretty big part of my life and affecting my mood at times. But the Lord made a far greater sacrifice than any of us can contemplate, so the sacrifices we make in doing His work are a miniscule price to pay for the difficulties we might experience while doing that work.

DaddyLongLeg
03-31-2005, 07:56 AM
Well TB, I accept your views because they are yours and you believe them. I have no authority to tell you what you should believe. I have walked my path towards truth as you have walked yours.

I know how you feel about all this New World Order stuff because I felt like that too. I choose to let God sort them all out because from my point of view that is the work of God alone.

Don’t get me wrong though; I don’t believe in ignorance when it comes to these issues, I just don’t believe we should let it define our existence.

In the end, I believe that pursuing spiritual truths pays the greatest dividends.

Just to add a little humour to all this, if you feel you need to do God’s work would it be too bold of me to ask if you would be willing to do some of mine too?!

You are a honourable debater TB. Best to you too.

truebeliever
03-31-2005, 07:36 PM
Ah yes, but once you've found a spiritual truth you act on it.

Christ did'nt just talk a talk...he whipped em from the Temple...ra ra ra ra ra ra...

One must act.

It's nice to disagree without killing each other over ideas.

What work did you have in mind? Cash only.

Best DLL.

As for you Mawashi...you have mistaken us for Bananna Benders... 8-)

DaddyLongLeg
04-01-2005, 06:52 AM
Well, I have spent some time thinking about this topic over the last few hours and while I don’t expect everyone to agree, this is what I have come up with; Jesus may have had God “in him” to some degree, but in the end, the source of all goodness is God alone. Therefore, all praise is to God alone, because Jesus did not create Jesus: God did. In the quote I provided from Matthew, Jesus rejects the title of Good Master because he knew that God created him.

What I’m saying here is not directed to TB, it is directed towards those who maintain that worshipping Jesus is not Idol Worship: it is especially directed to those who believe and proclaim that when they die they will “be with Jesus”. I just heard a Christian on the radio stating that “Terri (Schiavo) is now with Jesus” when in reality he should be saying that she is with God.

truebeliever
04-01-2005, 07:22 PM
I agree DLL.

The human form of God has passed. THOUGH...Jesus does sit at the right hand of the Father.

Sooooo...ooo for *&^&& sake...whatever.

I would prefer the people said God in that particular case. Though I think the form of Christ allows for more people to have a relationship with God.

I've had a lengthy discussion with an ex-Russian Orthodox priest who is deep into these subjects.

We talked about Ahmed's peice on idolatris worship which I agree with in most cases except Christ.

My friend however does not agree on the points of idolatary with the Saints etc... as he claims they are [paraphrasing heavily] "tools to allow the pondering of God". In my understanding then...you would eventually at some stage move past the Earthly forms to a complete and mature understanding and acceptence of God.

Just a thought.

BTW...if you think the Catholic Church is corrupt...consider the Russian Orthodox...UNBELIEVABLE...so unbelievable it's actually halarious.

madkhao
04-02-2005, 07:24 AM
Have you been brainwashed?

http://pictures.funnyjunk.com/pages/jesus.gif

DaddyLongLeg
04-02-2005, 06:49 PM
Hello Madkhao,

Your comment is completely unclear. Could you please elaborate on your meaning?

Ozziecynic
04-07-2005, 10:38 PM
DDL:
:-? If Jesus was Not God in human form then Christianity would be no different to judaism and may as well be based on the Torah.
Jesus christ and the NT is the only thing that separates chrstianity from judaism otherwise it would be identical to the torah!.

DLL Also you stated the passage MATT: 19:17 in an attempt to prove your view that jesus isnt God!

However in my Bible MATT 19:17 states no such thing it states: "Why do you ask me about what is good. There is only one who is good. If you want to enter Life, obey the commandments."
While i acknowledge why you have taken it to mean this. You have taken it well out of context because in the following passage MATT 19:18 it states this:
Jesus replied "Do not murder do not steal do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not gove false testimony etc. .
While this is rehashing the Ten commandments in the OT, he goes on to further state in MATT 19:20-21:
When the young man heard this he said "what do i still lack? Jesus answered if you want to be perfect ,go sell your possesions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven.Then come follow me"

So ddl, it appears you are taking the Bible out of context to suit your own Deist agenda in attempting to prove God isnt Jesus!. :-?

DaddyLongLeg
04-08-2005, 03:59 AM
Hi ozz

Ah, which book are you quoting from? I have a King James Version and from what I understand the KJ version is a direct translation from the Hebrew text.

In reply to your opening comments: why didn’t Ron L. Hubbard just rehash Christianity? Why are Mormons not Jehovah’s Witnesses and why are they not Pentecostal Christians? Why are Christians not Muslims?

Personally, I think all these differing religions do nothing more than create divisions between God’s children in order that they may fight one another.

I think it is safe to say that Jesus wasn’t a Christian. I think he put God above himself, and I feel we should too.

My main concern with Christians is that all they speak of is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, and seem to forget that God is the creator of all, including Jesus. You could even identify them with Pharaoh in that they seem to need some kind of physical idol to worship rather than the Unseen.

The commandments are the way to the eternal and in them it states that we should not worship idols. In Matthew 19:21 Jesus is reinforcing this view by asking the young man to forsake his idols (possessions and money) and follow him in the direction of God’s Kingdom.

Everything Jesus said came from God, not from Jesus, and Jesus made this claim; therefore, God is the only thing we should give praise to.

Lastly, you can believe that Jesus is God if you want, but I have faith that only God is God.

I’d be happy to read your comments

Later.

Ahmad
04-08-2005, 06:19 AM
Peace be upon you Dave,

Well said !

"Personally, I think all these differing religions do nothing more than create divisions between God’s children in order that they may fight one another."


There has been always only one religion "Submission to God alone", the religion named by Abraham, all the prophets added parts to it, untill God sent us the final testament, Quran.

Jesus was a Submitter, he wasn't Christian.

[3:67] Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist submitter. He never was an idol worshiper.

---------------------

Submission (Islam): Abraham's Religion*

[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."

No Distinction Among God's Messengers

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[2:137] If they believe as you do, then they are guided. But if they turn away, then they are in opposition. GOD will spare you their opposition; He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[2:138] Such is GOD's system, and whose system is better than GOD's? "Him alone we worship."

[2:139] Say, "Do you argue with us about GOD, when He is our Lord and your Lord? We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. To Him alone we are devoted."

[2:140] Do you say that Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs were Jewish or Christian? Say, "Do you know better than GOD? Who is more evil than one who conceals a testimony he has learned from GOD? GOD is never unaware of anything you do."

[2:141] That was a community from the past. They are responsible for what they earned, and you are responsible for what you earned. You are not answerable for anything they did.

truebeliever
04-08-2005, 07:13 AM
One more time Ahmed, then you're officially a fraud and not sincere.

You claim Jesus was but a prophet...based on the New testament...i presume coz i gather you wer'nt there?

Here a a few quotes...just a few...there were dozens more but too much to type. You cannot have it both ways Ahmed. You must say the N.T is a fraud...you cannot pick and choose what you like to suit your own view of things...
----------------------------------------------------
Was Christ Simply A Prophet Or God?

A missionary working among children in the Middle East was driving her jeep down a road when she ran out of gas. She had no gas can in her car. All she could find was a potty chair. She walked a mile down the road to the nearest gas station to fill up the pot with gas. As she was pouring the gas into the tank of her jeep, a large Cadillac occupied by wealthy oil sheiks pulled up. They were absoloutly fascinated by seeing her pour the contents of the pot into the Jeep. One of them opened the window and said, "My friend and I, although we do not share your religion, we greatly admire your faith!"

I am told that in a Communist Russian dictionary Jesus is described as a "mythical figure who never existed." No serious historian could maintain that position today. There is a great deal of evidence for Jesus existence. This comes not only from the Gospels and other Christian writings, but also from non-Christian sources. For example, the Roman historian Tacitus (directly) and Suetonius (indirectly) both write about Him. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37A.D also writes of him.

The more texts we have, the less doubt there is about the original.

WORK WHEN WRITTEN EARLIEST COPIES TIME SPAN (YRS) No OF COPIES

Herodotus 488-428BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Thucycidides 460-400BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Tacitus 100A.D 1100A.D 1000 20

Caesars Gallic War 58-50B.C 900A.D 950 9-10

Livy's Roman History 59B.C-17A.D 900A.D 900 20

New Testament 40-100A.D 130A.D 300 5000+Greek
(Full manuscripts 350A.D) 10,000 Latin
9,300 Others

Some people say, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Indeed, it is true that Jesus did not go around saying the words, "I am God." Yet when one looks at all He taught and claimed, there is little doubt that He was conscious of being a man who's identity was God.

Authority to forgive sins: On one occasion He said to a man who was paralyzed, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5) Only God can forgive sins.

Judge of the world: Christ claimed that one day he would judge the world (Matthew 25:31-32). He said He would return and sit on his thrown in heavenly glory. All the nations would be gathered before Him. He would pass judgment on them. If your Pastor claimed this you'd laugh. Clearly he is no mere man.

When the question was put to him..."are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?" Jesus said, "I am...and you will see the Son Of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The Jews started to stone Jesus...when he asked them why they replied..."because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33)

When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.

So how can we test peoples claims? Jesus claimed to be the unique Son Of God; made flesh. There are 3 logical possibilities. If the claims were untrue, either He knew they were untrue, in which case he was an imposter, and an evil one at that. That is the first possibility. Or He did not know, in which case He was deluded; indeed, He was mad. That is the second possibility. The third possibility is that the claims were true.

C.S Lewis put it like this:

""A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to"".

Wilbur Smith, the great American writer on theological topics, said:

""The ancient world had many different devices for determining the future, known as divination, but not in the entire gamut of Greek and Latin literature, even though they used the words prophet and prophecy, can we find any real specific prophecy of a great historic event to come in the distant future, nor any prophecy of a saviour to arrive in the human race...Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth. Neither can the founders of any cult in this country rightly identify any ancient text specifically fortelling their appearence"".

Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).

His appearences to the disciples. Were these hallucinations? Burly fisherman, tax collecters and skeptics like Thomas are unlikely to hallucinate. Jesus appeared to His disciples on 11 different occassions over a period of 6 weeks. Furthermore, over 500 people saw the risen Jesus. Jesus could be touched, He ate a peice of broiled fish (Luke 24:42, 43) and on one occasion He cooked breakfast for the disciples (John 21:1-14). Peter says, "[They] ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead" (Acts 10:41). He held long conversations with them, teaching them many things about the Kingdom Of God (Acts 1:3).

C.S Lewis sums it up like this:

""We are faced then with a frightening alternative. The man we are talking about was (and is) just what he said he was or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that he was neither a lunatic nor a fiend; and consequently, however strange and terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that he was and is God. God has landed on this ebnemy occupied world in human form.""

Questions Of Life. Nicky Gumble.

JUST A NOTE. I HAVE OMMITTED ALOT FOR BREVITY. T.B

get_real
04-08-2005, 07:27 AM
Ahmad:
Please respond. What are your beliefs exactly?
What do you think about Christianity and its teachings? Who do YOU say Jesus Christ is?

Though I cannot (at times) keep up with some of your stuff, I told you once before--to me, and maybe others--you come across like a 1950's door to door salesman. You shoot from both sides of your mouth.

I see you are an educated man. However, I (like others) enjoy reading these posts and just wait for someone to trip you. I do not see consistancy
in your responses on this topic: beliefs/religion/Christianity.

Please, if you will, answer the first paragraph.

Sincerely,
Helen (ger_real)

DaddyLongLeg
04-08-2005, 10:44 AM
Well, I’m just going to butt in on this because I’ve got something to say.

Claiming that Jesus was not God does not leave you in a position where you must renounce the New Testament as fraud! If you believe that Jesus was God, you can read the New Testament and be convinced of it. However, you can read it believing that Jesus was not God and also be convinced. Your interpretation depends on your premise!

Look at evolution; if you believe in evolution you can read an article on it a see nothing but good arguments for your belief. If you disbelieve evolution, you see nothing but speculation.

When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.

This is how I see it: Jesus is saying that when you see a miracle you believe because seeing is believing, but if you believe without ever having seen a miracle, you are truly blessed; you don’t need to see it because you have rock-solid faith anyway. That is far more valuable than having seen it!

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to

Why, if Jesus were not the Son as God as C S Lewis puts it, would he necessarily have to be a madman or something worse? Jesus could also have been a man who simply understood the virtue of the commandments. If you really understand them you don’t think of them as rules you must follow, but as truths that free you.

Let’s take the commandment of non-adulterous behaviour. It is not adulterous to have sex with your wife. That means neither with your girlfriend or boyfriend nor with a complete stranger. If you met a partner who believes in and sees the benefits of this commandment it leaves the relationship open to building a friendship: like you do with your mates or buddies. You don’t want to have sex with them do you? And because of this you can relax and relate much better. That’s how good friendships start up in the first place! When your pre-marital partner believes in this, you never worry about infidelity; you trust them one hundred percent. That’s much more rewarding than adulterous behaviour, huh? So, you see, that commandment isn’t really a command; it is the best advice for everyone.

Now you don’t have to be God or Jesus to understand that, and no C S Lewis, it does not make you a lunatic or a Devil of Hell!

As I see it, a man who was merely a man and said the things Jesus said would make an excellent moral teacher.

Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).

God doesn’t sit around waiting for things to happen like we do. He sees everything forwards and backwards at once. Prophecy for God is a piece of cake. He could have foretold everything, but it wouldn’t make much sense to do that; how can you test a spirit that knows everything already?

Last but not least, I’m not rushing to anyone’s defence here, I was simply inspired to express myself.

Cheers!

Draken
04-08-2005, 11:03 AM
Why, if Jesus were not the Son as God as C S Lewis puts it, would he necessarily have to be a madman or something worse? Jesus could also have been a man who simply understood the virtue of the commandments. If you really understand them you don’t think of them as rules you must follow, but as truths that free you.

The emphasized parts are the point here - well said, DLL!!

commandment isn’t really a command; it is the best advice for everyone.

Exactly.

And last but absolutely not least:

how can you test a spirit that knows everything already?

A quote from one of the most famous Sufis:

"Here's a tale: A soul was questioned by God at the gates of Heaven, "You are the same as when you left! You were blessed by a life full of opportunity - so where are the bruises and scars left by your journey?"
Jalaluddin Rumi

Well, DLL, that WAS true inspiration!

Ahmad
04-08-2005, 12:08 PM
New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2010;&version=31;)

Mark 10

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.

get_real
04-08-2005, 12:18 PM
Ahmad wrote:
New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2010;&version=31;)

Mark 10

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.


I see, just as I thought.
Sincerely, get_real

Saturnino
04-08-2005, 02:40 PM
Come on, this passage is a simple use of Socratic argumentationn (with a bit of irony): Why do you call me good when only God is good...meaning, you are calling me God then !!!

Jesus was a fine user of parables and examples...he drove people to conclusions but never forced them, because accepting Him is not accomplished by use of force...he several times denied the opportunity to show off as he could easily have done.

Why ? because his missions was to die for us, not to take the earthly kingdom by force. He said He could summon hundreds of angels if he wanted. But making himself king of Israel by force would screw up the mission.

He said His kingdom was NOT from this world, meaning that he would sacrificially die and the Holy Spirit would convince people that He was God and the way to salvation...therefore opening the doors of the heavenly kingdom. Cool guy was He indeed.

nohope187
04-08-2005, 08:15 PM
I've already posted on this topic before on the Christianity thread awhile ago and got some nasty PM's from a prosyletizing evangelist rapture cult nut like ephesian6, but here's my two cents again anyway. I believe Christ is the son of God and is the risen savior, but NOT God himself. Proof? How can Christ be God when it was the Father who resurrected the son? How can Christ be God when he sits at the Father's right hand? I think it was in Collosians 1:15 or 16 or somewhere in chapter one where it says Christ is the first of all creation and through him all else was created. John 3:16 says, "HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON". So, I agree with DLL and Amahd.
Hey DLL, the KJV bible was actually a direct translation from the Greeks. They fucked it all up with their multiple word meanings, hence all the other translations today. :-P

truebeliever
04-08-2005, 09:19 PM
I've got to be honest DLL...people are picking and choosing what they like.

These are only a few of about 20-30 points. I had to type that in by hand not copy and paste.

I've got to honestly say that people are reaching if they have read the entire bible and can only conclude from it that he was a 'nice guy' and a 'great teacher'.

How about people addressing the EXACT points I made? Thomas the doubter? "My Lord and my God"? The Jews stoning him because he cclaimed to be God?

The resurection? Come on people? I dont beleive this is very sincere. Did Muhammed reserect? Is the story of Christ that of a simple teacher with ALL the miracles? With ALL that has been written?

Either the N.T is a fake or HE IS the Son Of God, in fact God incarnate into this world from a force we cannot possibly comprehend. The Life Force incarnate.

If people here cannot grasp this then the debate is not very honest.

People are picking and choosing because it's easier to intellectualise these things away.

There is far more pointing to the central premise of the N.T---->that God so loved the world he offered up his only son. God is not a man sitting up in the clouds, God is totally incomprehensible...hence the incarnation. We need to get out of our heads the 'image' of God. God can be everywhere and incarnate in Christ as well.

These are simple points. I believe there is not alot of real search for the truth here but intellectual self defense from a premise that is a little frightening to intelligent people that come here.

Regardless. I loves ya all. I've had my Prozac and everythings all right now.

Kiss, kiss.

nohope187
04-08-2005, 09:30 PM
The shooters at Columbine were on Prozac. Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids was on two different antidepressants at the same time. That indian kid who shot 9 people then himself was also on prozac. I don't think SSRI's are good for you True. And to correct you True, they set out to stone him because he claimed to be the SON of God, not God himself. :-P

truebeliever
04-08-2005, 09:37 PM
Dont worry Nohope...just waiting till the brain chips are available...then it's all going to be all right...oh yes, freedom...

nohope187
04-08-2005, 09:46 PM
I can speak from experience with SSRI's cuz I tried Prozac for a week back when I was seriously depressed and that shit made me feel extremely irritable and aggressive. If anyone wants to read some real life horror stories about SSRI's, go to drugawareness.org :-P

truebeliever
04-08-2005, 09:59 PM
DLL, on this point you made...

""This is how I see it: Jesus is saying that when you see a miracle you believe because seeing is believing, but if you believe without ever having seen a miracle, you are truly blessed; you don’t need to see it because you have rock-solid faith anyway. That is far more valuable than having seen it!""

This is in relation to Thomas saying to Christ..."My Lord and my God"...Christ rebukes Thomas for taking so long to get the point...

DLL, that is some of the most incredible reaching i have ever seen. I think the passage speaks for itself. This constant harp that the Bible is 'simple metaphor' and merely an archetypal myth that gives us meaning is wearing thin.

Either say the N.T is a fake but a lovely story with a few tips for living, or accept it's central premise. I really cant see the problem.

There is one thing worse than idol worship, thats human beings twisting things to suit themselves. It's dishonest.

People are not seeing the forest for the tree's because the central premise is far to terrifying...that God incarnated into this world.

Oh well, it seems i must mount a crusade and kill the people i disagree with to save them from themselves...

:-D

nohope187
04-08-2005, 10:10 PM
[.

Oh well, it seems i must mount a crusade and kill the people i disagree with to save them from themselves...

:-D[/quote]Sounds like the Prozac is talking. :-P

DaddyLongLeg
04-10-2005, 07:57 AM
Hey TB

This topic is a real getting nowhere thread huh?

To be completely honest with you none of us can know what Jesus is. To me he is a man with a true spirit that God chose to make an example through, and to you he is God incarnate.

All we can really do is have faith in our beliefs right?

I don’t believe that the New Testament is a fake; I believe it is a book of verse that we interpret using our own premise as a foundation. I believe that the New Testament takes the wisdom of the Old Testament and centers it on an individual life so that we can apply it personally.

The bottom line for me is this: We should be grateful to God alone and take heed of the message from Jesus.

truebeliever
04-10-2005, 09:01 AM
Here, here, kiss, kiss DLL.

Thats what it's all about people!

We can all disagree and not kill each other.

Something that ordinary people have been doing an awful long time.

It seems only our Elite Masters have failed to get it.

Best.

madkhao
04-22-2005, 05:28 PM
DLL wrote

Hello Madkhao,

Your comment is completely unclear. Could you please elaborate on your meaning?

Somewhere way back in the first or second pages of this thread someone mentioned a white aryan jesus. If you took the visual test I posted and thought you saw jesus, you've been brainwashed.

nohope187
04-22-2005, 09:41 PM
another comment the God incarnate believers should consider: Christ is king, but he's not God. God allows him to be king for 1000 years. After that, God takes back the throne and Christ goes back to God's right hand. read Revelations to check for yourself.