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truebeliever
03-31-2005, 11:47 PM
Extract taken from "Questions Of Life" by Nicky Gumble.
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Was Christ Simply A Prophet Or God?

A missionary working among children in the Middle East was driving her jeep down a road when she ran out of gas. She had no gas can in her car. All she could find was a potty chair. She walked a mile down the road to the nearest gas station to fill up the pot with gas. As she was pouring the gas into the tank of her jeep, a large Cadillac occupied by wealthy oil sheiks pulled up. They were absoloutly fascinated by seeing her pour the contents of the pot into the Jeep. One of them opened the window and said, "My friend and I, although we do not share your religion, we greatly admire your faith!"

I am told that in a Communist Russian dictionary Jesus is described as a "mythical figure who never existed." No serious historian could maintain that position today. There is a great deal of evidence for Jesus existence. This comes not only from the Gospels and other Christian writings, but also from non-Christian sources. For example, the Roman historian Tacitus (directly) and Suetonius (indirectly) both write about Him. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37A.D also writes of him.

The more texts we have, the less doubt there is about the original.

WORK WHEN WRITTEN EARLIEST COPIES TIME SPAN (YRS) No OF COPIES

Herodotus 488-428BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Thucycidides 460-400BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Tacitus 100A.D 1100A.D 1000 20

Caesars Gallic War 58-50B.C 900A.D 950 9-10

Livy's Roman History 59B.C-17A.D 900A.D 900 20

New Testament 40-100A.D 130A.D 300 5000+Greek
(Full manuscripts 350A.D) 10,000 Latin
9,300 Others

Some people say, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Indeed, it is true that Jesus did not go around saying the words, "I am God." Yet when one looks at all He taught and claimed, there is little doubt that He was conscious of being a man who's identity was God.

Authority to forgive sins: On one occasion He said to a man who was paralyzed, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5) Only God can forgive sins.

Judge of the world: Christ claimed that one day he would judge the world (Matthew 25:31-32). He said He would return and sit on his thrown in heavenly glory. All the nations would be gathered before Him. He would pass judgment on them. If your Pastor claimed this you'd laugh. Clearly he is no mere man.

When the question was put to him..."are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?" Jesus said, "I am...and you will see the Son Of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The Jews started to stone Jesus...when he asked them why they replied..."because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33)

When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.

So how can we test peoples claims? Jesus claimed to be the unique Son Of God; made flesh. There are 3 logical possibilities. If the claims were untrue, either He knew they were untrue, in which case he was an imposter, and an evil one at that. That is the first possibility. Or He did not know, in which case He was deluded; indeed, He was mad. That is the second possibility. The third possibility is that the claims were true.

C.S Lewis put it like this:

""A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to"".

Wilbur Smith, the great American writer on theological topics, said:

""The ancient world had many different devices for determining the future, known as divination, but not in the entire gamut of Greek and Latin literature, even though they used the words prophet and prophecy, can we find any real specific prophecy of a great historic event to come in the distant future, nor any prophecy of a saviour to arrive in the human race...Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth. Neither can the founders of any cult in this country rightly identify any ancient text specifically fortelling their appearence"".

Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).

His appearences to the disciples. Were these hallucinations? Burly fisherman, tax collecters and skeptics like Thomas are unlikely to hallucinate. Jesus appeared to His disciples on 11 different occassions over a period of 6 weeks. Furthermore, over 500 people saw the risen Jesus. Jesus could be touched, He ate a peice of broiled fish (Luke 24:42, 43) and on one occasion He cooked breakfast for the disciples (John 21:1-14). Peter says, "[They] ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead" (Acts 10:41). He held long conversations with them, teaching them many things about the Kingdom Of God (Acts 1:3).

C.S Lewis sums it up like this:

""We are faced then with a frightening alternative. The man we are talking about was (and is) just what he said he was or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that he was neither a lunatic nor a fiend; and consequently, however strange and terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that he was and is God. God has landed on this enemy occupied world in human form.""

Questions Of Life. Nicky Gumble.

JUST A NOTE. I HAVE OMMITTED ALOT FOR BREVITY. T.B

SORRY, ONE OF THE TABLES GOT MIXED UP IN THE PASTING.

IT SHOULD READ...Work, When Written, Earliest Copies, Time Span (yrs), No Of Copies

Akbar
04-14-2005, 02:19 PM
At this point the debate of who Christ is meaningless if we do not incorporate the values that he stood for in our lives. The Christ is only a symbolic representation that all human beings can acquire if we incorporate the word of God in our lives. The Christ only means the "annointed one". It is the word of God that annoints you. The miracles of Jesus are symbolic. It is satanic that the learned church leaders have not told Christians the truth about Christianity. The earlier leaders felt that they needed to hide the truth of the religion with symbolism to protect them from their presecution in Rome. After all they were being fed to the lions. The early church leaders felt that they needed to incorporate Roman mythology into their religion. The thinking was that when the church was not being persecuted anymore then the church leaders could reveal the secrets of the religion. You do not have to believe what I am saying, but the fact is that if you study Rome, you can connect the paganism that is similar to Christianity.

peace

get_real
04-14-2005, 02:33 PM
I agree AKBAR when you say the debate is meaningless if we do not incorporate the values of the teachings into our own daily lives!!

I also agree on that there is symbolism, (such as of the miracles).

I also agree that the truth is hidden from Christians.

There are many of us who see the Bible differently with more meaning and message.

I have known (and still do) many Christians who feel the way I do. But then again, I've come across Christians that want to have you leave your thinking/questions at the door.

Sincerely,
Helen (get_real)

PS: I found this on the internet today: http://www.bl.uk/news/2005/pressrelease20050311.html

nomad
04-14-2005, 05:41 PM
truebeliever, the only way I found to test the

validity of Jesus is to see how good he was

at predicting the future ... if anybody

investigates his foreknowledge of the future,

you can only conclude that this man was not of

this world.

truebeliever
04-14-2005, 07:31 PM
I will tell you...i care not one sub atomic particle on whether people beleive or not, or what their level of beleif is.

I care that most of the people here believe in a power greater than the State...Yeh!!!!!

However, the bible has been under assault for centuries. Why? Not because of the failings of Jesus Christ. Not because the New Testament is flawed but because elements of society were rebelling against the total, absoloute hypocrisy of the idiots supposedly teaching the message of Christ. Rightly so.

There are also the intellectual elements, who on discovering science and the rational side of man naturally scoff at many of the stories. This is also mixed up with a big load of arrogence.

This is probably a natural movement.

There is also a disruptive element who are just plain evil.

I just say to you...consider the points i've made and maybe even buy the book. What i wrote their is 1/10th of what he had to say. Truly, if you are honest, you will have to at least admit that the N.T is not simply "metaphor" or "parable" or "symbolic" but is based on actual events and witness testimony.

By any measure of an ancient text...the N.T passes with flying colours. That is a verifiable FACT based on premises used for hundreds of years.

There again...it could be a big pack of lies...However, I could think of much better ways to control people than the teachings of Jesus Christ...i mean think about it? You want to control people so you what...? Use the made up story of a carpenter who claimed to be the son of God and was executed by a Roman Governer? I mean, i could think a few better ways, cant you?

Do you beleive George Washington existed? Maybe his life is just metaphor? Have you ever met this bloke they call george Washington? He's just in a book. Come on...the illuminati made him up!

Ever met Lord Rothschild? How bout Henry Makow? Any of you here met Henry Makow?

That God incarnated into this world, completely conscious of his divinity, performed witnessed miracles, gave his life as a sacrifice for truth and other far deeper meanings...a little scary for the rational intellect to take up.

Maybe i'm just deluded.

I've been down most every road in my short 34 years on the planet, tried every drug, looked into most religions, nearly went mad, considered suicide, spent years in therapy, thought Carl Jung was a prophet and then ended up 1 ft to the left of where I started...deeper into my belief in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ...a man, completely conscious of his divinity.

Whatever turns you on...sincere good luck to you. My original post was just to point out that if one is willing to beleive in this, then they're also going to have to beleive in that. I dont like it when people pick and choose.

I never try to convert people and yet i constantly come accross people trying to tell me Christ never existed, but it's a nice story. Christ did exist but he married a prostitute and left us a few tips for living...blah blah blah...if everyone is so sure then I guess we can end the thread here.

I've made my point as God commanded me...i shall now be rewarded with a good flat white coffee down by the sea.

Allah Ak'bah!

Sincere best to all!

bambamTUmam
04-15-2005, 12:59 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/12/news/midcaps/jesus_dolls/?cnn=yes

truebeliever
04-15-2005, 07:39 PM
Whoa! JC's been working out. Real buff...great delts. Nicely trimmed beard.

Ahmad
04-17-2005, 05:37 AM
Was Christ A Mere Prophet Or God?

A mere prophet.

www.usn2161.net/Christianity.html

nomad
04-17-2005, 10:07 AM
Ahmad wrote:
Was Christ A Mere Prophet Or God?

A mere prophet.

www.usn2161.net/Christianity.html


Ahmad as you age just keep an eye on the

popularity of this mere prophet. He claimed

that he would be the most famous person on Earth

as we approach the end of time. He was so sure

it would happen that he never bothered to write

a book and interestingly 2000 years later his

words have yet to be proven wrong. Not bad I'd

say.

Akbar
04-18-2005, 09:57 AM
The same could be said of Mohammed, who has the most popular name on earth. It is meant for the world to see both of them together. One is only a concept (idea) and the other is the representation of that concept being placed into human flesh.

peace

nomad
04-18-2005, 12:26 PM
True Akbar ... while Mohammed claimed to

be the greatest prophet, he wrote

a book to promote this ... Jesus claimed to be

the creator of all and didn't bother to write

a word to promote this idea. Which is more

difficult to accomplish, make people believe

that you are the creator of the universe or the

greatest prophet ?

truebeliever
04-18-2005, 11:23 PM
Ha ha...thanx NOMAD...i was getting lonely here!

Whatever the truth to each person...i hope the Muslim and Christian worlds continue to fight the NWO!

nomad
04-19-2005, 12:12 AM
truebeliever wrote:
Ha ha...thanx NOMAD...i was getting lonely here!

Whatever the truth to each person...i hope the Muslim and Christian worlds continue to fight the NWO!


lol actually the NWO wants the Christians and

Muslims to butcher each other while they

keep controlling more and more of the planet ...

just look at how they are allowing the muslims

to flood into previous Christian countries ...

these are just little time bomds waiting to

explode so they can remove more freedoms from

the sheeple.

Akbar
04-20-2005, 12:00 PM
The most important thing is for us to identify with the Christ within ourselves. The Christ is a title that the Christian is to live up to. I'm not interested in debating about Jesus. It is what he represents that is the important thing. He represents the incorporation of the word of God into our life. When we do this then we become a beacon of light for others. Mohammed simply was the return of Christ. He represents the perfect model of the incorporation of the word of God into our lives.

peace

Saturnino
04-21-2005, 04:51 AM
True believer,

I think I disagree with you about caring for what people believe. I do.
Most animosity against proselitysing comes from the fact that people want to control other people thru their religion. Unfortunately, this is a fact in most of the times.
However, not always. In my case, my only motivation is to see God being glorified and people happy. I come from a Spiritist/Catholic family, and I have experienced firsthand the consequences of a life without Jesus. Spiritism destroyed my father's family.
So I see people butting their heads, confused, and I feel sorry for them. I wish they could have the assurance and faith that I have, falty as it may be.
I make no money, I don`t control anything and I personally gain nothing at all when a person comes to Christ, apart from this internal satisfaction of seeing someone saved.
In fact, I expect Christians to face more and more persecution, so I don`t think that having large numbers of Christians will help much either in a material sense.
Just wanted to drop a note so you could see that there are other motivations for evangelism other than control.

truebeliever
04-23-2005, 06:18 AM
One must do what one must do SAT.

I'm having trouble convincing people that the people who control finance control the world. That powerful people have other things than the public good on their mind and that sport really does not matter.

Trying to flesh out the deep meaning of a life lived for 33 years, 2000 years ago is hard work.

Especially when ur up against sport, beer and bikini's down here in Oz.

I try to live the truth and speak it. When people see your example they may ask motivations, inspirations etc...they are ALWAYS extremely surprised when I say the life of Christ.

What resonates deeply for me was that under the severest of penalties Christ continued to tell the truth to people who had a big interest in living a lie.

Whatever the arguments, he was at least that.