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Ahmad
04-08-2005, 12:46 AM
Salamun 'alaykum,
(peace be unto you)

Q: Why "idol-worship" is the real conspiracy?

It is evident that the conspiracy started from day one on earth, no human conspirators would have successfuly passed their agenda along hundreds of generations without any failure. A closer look at the claims of some evil doers that they are "alliens", "superior species"..etc leads us to the conclusion that there is indeed a separate invisible species among us with an agenda, they are called "Niphilim", "the greys", "the Jinn-beings", "demons"..etc, what is important is the proven fact that they can control the human beings (only if the humans agreed with them) and use them to advance their agenda.

Q: So what is their agenda ?

The scriptures say that Satan (and his descendants) is full of jealousy and hatred towards Adam (and his descendants), God created Adam, then ordered all the angels (including Satan) to fall prostrate before him (meaning to serve him from then on), all obeyed except the proud Satan, he said "I am better then he", the test for Adam on the other hand was in the form of the symbolical forbidden tree (a symbol of all the visible world), once Adam listened to Satan, and believed that the creature (the tree) has an inherent power to grant him eternal life, both Adam and his wife were ordered to go down to the visible dimension along with Satan and his descendants.

Q: Why didn't God forgive Adam for this first mistake?

God did forgive us all for this original sin when Adam repented, however in order to fully redeem ourselves and purify them from the traces of doubt, God created the earth to tesl us all, a makeup test.

Q: Does that mean that the record starts from zero-sins? and what is the test exactly?

Yes we start with no sins at all, the test is simply a choice we have to make, either God or Satan. God is represented by all the "Unseen" absolute values and meanings that we can feel with our hearts, Satan is represented by the visible domain, all the visible creatures void of any meaning or absolute value. Satan advocates that the creatures (meaning himself ofcourse) are gods, ends in themselves, that there is nothing behind them, he says that nature created itself, if we believe in his blaspemous idea, we fall from God's kingdom into Satan's and we face complete misery and failure.

Q: How do i know if i am in Satan's kingdom?

For every human being there is a Jinn-companion assigned to his body, the Jinn projects continously his father's ideas, that the creatures can benefit or harm you on their own. When you start to attribute a power to a creature instead of the source (God) know that you are being duped, the next thing you know is you are in a state of total obsession, (or the other extreme, unjustified hate or fear) with a creature, and because of the dependance on a powerless creature who by default is unstable, that creature will take you on a journey to the land of misery and lost dreams, with you hanging onto its tail up and down you go, traumatizing you and destroying your resistance completely, untill you become a faithfull commplying follower of Satan.

Q: I don't understand! can you give me examples?

0-Idol: The forbidden tree (symbol of the visible dimension)
Action: Eating (symbol of action)
Extreme emotion: temporary obsession
Satanic promise/lie: eternal life, kingship.
The truth: (The tree was not about the tree!, it was simply a test, God warned us that the creatures on their own CAN NOT grant anything, but we failed to take heed and listened to Satan and here we are!)

1- Visible creature/Idol : Money
Action: Gambling, theft, "who wants to be a millionaire", "working for an evil firm", unproductive work (stock market, the movie-industry)....vivisection, factory-farms...prostitution..etc
Extreme emotion: love (obsession/addiction)
Satanic promise: financial security, happiness, fulfilling dreams...etc
The truth: (Money is not about money!, it's simply a test, only God can grant the "real" money which can bring you happiness and satisfaction, and the real money cannot come through illegal ways, since God is the one who grants it if we reverence him and seek a righteous meaning (value) in our work. "No righteous meaning? Don't do it!"

2- Idol: Women (or men)
Action: Adultery, Homosexuality, free sex, pornography, codependency.
Extreme emotion: obsession
Satanic promise/lie: immediate gratification.
The truth: (We are not just a body, the road to satisfaction starts with the soul, and our souls need meanings, in this case "Love", love comes form God alone, and thus when we satisfy our bodies by engaging in sinful acts, we are actually creating more problems, let us imagine a vacuum chamber, representing our need, this chamber cannot reach stability except if we fill it with both parts, love (for the soul) and physical relation (for the body), if you open the door and fill the body part only, the unsatisfied vacuum will suck more and more of it, but the problem is the physical part cannot fill the soul part and therefore a never ending downward spiral of "doping" will start, with you trying desperately to fill the soul-part of the chamber physically but with no avail!) Love comes from God, and God decreed marriage and family as the only way to get it.

[13:14] Imploring Him is the only legitimate supplication, while the idols they implore beside Him, cannot ever respond. Thus, they are like those who stretch their hands to the water, but nothing reaches their mouths. The supplications of the disbelievers are in vain.

3- Idol: Children
Action: Over or under protection......to the extreme of pedophilia!
Extreme emotion: obsession
Satanic promise: never losing your childern..etc
The truth: (Children, even though they are our extension in life, they are totally independent creatures, nobody owns them, they belong to God, by attributing their powers (skills,beauty..etc) to God always and being appreciative, we are protecting them in the right way. People who seek to control their childern completely by strict rules are no better than those who seek to control them through trauma, criticism/pedophilia.

4- Idol: Ego
Action: Arrogance, seeking fame (celebrities, movie stars, presidents), showing off..etc
Extreme emotion: obsession with oneself
Satanic promise: "you can be your own god, nothing can stop you then!"
The truth: (We can reach no happiness ever except if we humbly acknowledge our position as creatures, subservient to the one god. God commands us to kill our egos, thus whenever you feel proud, remeber that there are limits and that only God is Great)

5- Idol: NWO
Action: Obsessive study of the NWO bibles, news, history. (Whatever occupies your mind most of the time, is your god!)
Extreme emotion: Mix of hate/fear (attraction and repulsion are the two sides of the same coin "idol-worship")
Satanic promise: "They are everywhere, there is no escape, it is over!"
The truth: (Only God can harm, no other creature can harm anybody against God's will. The NWO propaganda is designed to enslave you through an invisible bond (hate/fear), it's not over untill you ACCEPT the vicious idea that the "mighty" rich leaders are gods and that if they want to harm you, they can!) the only way to defeat evil is to acknowledge its powerlessness, and that all power belongs to God alone.

6-Idol: Jesus (Muhammad, the pope, the saints, professional religionists)
Action: Acceptance of their views without questioning , considering them infallibe gods, attributing their knowledge to them instead of the source.
Extreme emotion: love/obsession
Satanic promise: "They are more pure, they can grant salvation, they are the only way to God"
The truth is :(The prophets were no more than human beings like you and me, God sent us a message with a postman, we chose to relate the message to the postman instead of the sender!. God has no partners whatsoever in his kingship and He is far too exalted to have a mate or a son, as He is in no need for all His creation, it is us who need Him. Satan actually comes to us disguised in false identities (the false devine Jesus, the false devine Muhammad, the false devine saints), once we worship these distorted figures, we are actually worshipping Satan, instead of God.

The bottom line is: Satan has many masks, he uses the visible creatures to bind us in slavery, we shall seek the source behind the meanings we feel in our hearts instead of the visible powerless dimension that can not harm or benefit anyone.

Let me tell you that all those who idolize Jesus has lost the battle with Satan (aka. NWO) already because of their failure to acknowledge God as the only source of harm or benefit, it is all connected, and the choice is yours.

[2:165] Yet, some people set up idols to rival GOD, and love them as if they are GOD. Those who believe love GOD the most. If only the transgressors could see themselves when they see the retribution! They will realize then that all power belongs to GOD alone, and that GOD's retribution is awesome.

[9:31] They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

Saturnino
04-08-2005, 01:13 PM
Ahmad,

We are not going anywhere with posts like this. We agree that Satan is behind most of the conspiracies, but my definition of idols is your obsession with Islam and Mohamed.

Christianity teaches that all who have not accepted Jesus are in fact spiritually blinded by Satan, and that only the Holy Spirit (which comes to live in the heart of the believer) can give man real understanding of spiritual things. That`s why so many smart people have no clue about spiritual things. Therefore, in our opinion, you Muslims are the ones blinded and being led by the devil.

So, I already see us trapped in a ping-pong game of "you are the one with the idol". You have started many threads that ended this way, which has been an annoyance in this forum.

BTW, I don`t think that Satan is the sole responsible for everything. People are evil by themselves, and they follow their evil desires when plotting their conspiracies. Satan just rides the waves, like a skillfull surfer in some cases, and directs people in some other cases.

Ahmad
04-08-2005, 02:16 PM
Peace Markos,

"Therefore, in our opinion, you Muslims are the ones blinded and being led by the devil. "

Read my post again and you will see that i condemn the muslims as much as the christians. The muslims say that Muhammad is "the most honourable messenger" and when they make the pilgrimage to God's shrine in Mecca they also make it to Muhammad's tomb in medina.

The truth is, Satan is not that smart, he plays the same trick again and again and again!

There is a pattern and i hope someday you will see it before it's too late.

The Budhists worship a human being, the Christians and the Muslims do too, why?

Imagine if we all worship the same one god, wouldn't the world be a better place?

Satan lied to you, time to repent and acknowledge the one god, there is no savior coming, only you can save yourself.

Mark [9:37] whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”

nohope187
04-08-2005, 02:44 PM
No shit! It's called the State. :-P

Saturnino
04-09-2005, 04:16 PM
Ahmad,

Your message is a very confused one. You intent on saving yourself by your own efforts. You must think that God's standards are pretty low. We sin all the time, my friend. Interestingly, the only sin that you really respect is the one of worshipping Jesus, the only one you are afraid of.

The truth is that God said in the Bible that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. He also says that our good works are like filthy rags to Him, because they are stained at least to an extent with our pride and evil intentions. So, I am sad to say, all your efforts to save yourself will bring no salvation to you.

You say it would be good if we all acknoledged the same God. In fact, with the exception of Luciferians and Satanists who really hate God, and atheists who deny His existence, all people have some notion of who God is. In fact, even demons believe in God, and tremble. The question, Ahmad, is not if you believe in God or not, but if you are willing to play by His rules. If you don`t, he won`t accept you, works and all. And His rules are: you don`t get to Heaven by your efforts, you need forgiveness.

DaddyLongLeg
04-09-2005, 10:01 PM
How else does one redeem their wickedness if not by their own efforts?

Set apart from the rest is the person who does not take the advice of the ungodly, nor interfere with sinners, nor takes residence with the disrespectful.

Your salvation is in the commandments; you must make the effort to understand the commandments.

If you do so you shall be upright and rooted firmly and all that you require shall be within your reach and all that you do will succeed.

Those that ignore the commandments shall not be so blessed. For them life is confused and difficult.

The ungodly reveal themselves in spirit and that spirit shall indeed cease to exist.

That was my interpretation of Psalm 1 and I think it still applies right now as it did then. If I was to take your advice Saturnino I would be left wondering the fate of all who lived before Jesus.

We love our faithful dogs. We excuse them for their less than desirable qualities because they are faithful to us. However, if our dogs turn on us and remain in such a state, what choice are we left with but to put them down?

We are like God’s dogs. God is merciful and understands our less than desirable qualities and if we remain faithful God rewards us.

Of course there is a little more to it than that (seeing how we are able to question our own actions), but I think this is an interesting way to understand God's relationship with His creatures.

Obviously we have all fallen short of the glory of God just in the same way that dogs are not human.

One thing I am curious of Saturnino is why you refer to Ahmad as a Muslim?

Ahmad
04-10-2005, 02:07 AM
Peace Markos,

I noticed something in your words, but before you read this please know that i am not on the opposite side of you, i just remind, you are totally free to heed the message or turn away, but know that God's retribution is severe.

"People are evil by themselves"

It is none but Satan who wants us to believe that we are inherently evil, why? first of all he wants to stay "invisible" and evade the responsbility, but the main idea he wants to pass is, 'THERE IS NO WAY OUT' !, imagine someone with cancer at an advanced stage, once he buys this satanic idea, he has lost the battle! maybe he will then ask to pull the plug.


"He also says that our good works are like filthy rags to Him, because they are stained at least to an extent with our pride and evil intentions."


If i am inherently evil, and if all my good works are nothing but filthy rags, and if i am stamped as an arrogant, wicked creature from the very beginning, then what are we living for?


"all your efforts to save yourself will bring no salvation to you"


I really believe that there is a big connection between the Christian teachings and the NWO conspiracy, i don't want to insult anybody, but just take a closer look at this vicious idea, i noticed that a big part of the NWO propaganda is aimed at paralyzing us with despair. The battle starts in your mind first, if there is nothing you can do to change your condition to start with, then what's the need to fight them!

There is a pattern by which Satan drags us to his kingdom, i can summarize it in the following steps:

1- Problem: e.g: 'You are a hopless sinner, whatever you do, you can't redeem yourself!' / or 'Your colleagues don't like you, whatever you do, they will not accept you' / or 'You have cancer at an advanced stage, do you really think it can be cured!' / or 'You have only 10$ left, soon the bills will come and you will fail to pay them, it's over!'

l
Despair
l


2- Solution: and Satan is always ready with the solution, 'a mere mortal will save you don't worry' / 'just play along, get a persona, don't be that serious and they will accept you' / 'All your pains will vanish in a second, just tell them to pull the plug' / 'You can use the money your friend kept with you, afterall he won't be back in a year, nobody will know'


"you don`t get to Heaven by your efforts, you need forgiveness."


So Satan creates a problem with one hand and then extends the other to 'save' you !

The only unforgivable sin is 'idol-worship', what God wants from us is to understand that no creature has any power to harm or benefit, all power comes from Him alone.

If we really undesrtood this idea, and if we applied this understanding in our daily tests, God promises to forgive all our sins and turn them into credits, just like that!

You are a sinner or a sinning person? there is a big difference, if you are sinning, you can stop it right now.


If you believe that a creature can help you, then i ask you to think again, Jesus was a Powerless creature, an honourable messenger, yes indeed, we respect him, yes we do, but not because of his inherent goodness, but because of his 'choices'.

Believe it or not, you can be better than Jesus, if you applied the message, you can redeem yourself.


[4:116] GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray.


[25:71] Those who repent and lead a righteous life, GOD redeems them; a complete redemption.

Saturnino
04-10-2005, 10:46 AM
Ahmad,

You think you can stop sinning right now ? I don't mean stealing or murdering, but having envy, showing anger, being jealous, proud, thinking bad things about people ?

Come on, give me a break ! This is just self-righteousness and a sin in itself ! You are a sinner, my friend, like the rest of us, and you think that if you are just a little bit good God MUST accept you. You set the rules for God. What a presumption. The God you worship can be bought for little.

Forgiveness and good works are NOT exclusive. Once you are forgiven and receive Jesus as Savior, the Holy Spirit will give you a will to do good works. NOT as a means of salvation, but as gratitude and a reflection of the character of God. No place for lazy bums here. Once saved, you are not inherently wicked anymore, and will be holy when you get to be with God.

For me this is reason enough to live, to enjoy God's creation, love people and enjoy God Himself.

Again, Ahmad, I think you got my point very well but you pretend you didn`t understand in order to keep machine gunning this forum with your ideas.

Ahmad
04-10-2005, 02:14 PM
Actually now i understand, i was just hoping that you wake up from this self-fulfilling prophecy. Indeed with this sinner-mentality, God will not redeem you, you don't want His forgivness.

God's Infinite Mercy

[39:53] Proclaim: "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of GOD's mercy. For GOD forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."

[39:54] You shall obey your Lord, and submit to Him totally, before the retribution overtakes you; then you cannot be helped.

[39:55] And follow the best path that is pointed out for you by your Lord, before the retribution overtakes you suddenly when you least expect it.

[39:56] Lest a soul may say, "How sorry I am for disregarding GOD's commandments; I was certainly one of the mockers."

[39:57] Or say, "Had GOD guided me, I would have been with the righteous."

[39:58] Or say, when it sees the retribution, "If I get another chance, I will work righteousness."

[39:59] Yes indeed (you did get enough chances). My proofs came to you, but you rejected them, turned arrogant, and became a disbeliever.

[39:60] On the Day of Resurrection you will see the faces of those who lied about GOD covered with misery. Is Hell not the right retribution for the arrogant ones?

[39:61] And GOD will save those who have maintained righteousness; He will reward them. No harm will touch them, nor will they have any grief.

[39:62] GOD is the Creator of all things, and He is in full control of all things.

[39:63] To Him belongs all decisions in the heavens and the earth, and those who disbelieve in GOD's revelations are the real losers.

[39:64] Say, "Is it other than GOD you exhort me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Idol Worship Nullifies All Work

[39:65] It has been revealed to you, and to those before you that if you ever commit idol worship, all your works will be nullified, and you will be with the losers.

[39:66] Therefore, you shall worship GOD alone, and be appreciative.

Saturnino
04-11-2005, 07:50 AM
Friend,
I already got His forgiveness. I was wondering: the best way to get someone to do anything for you is promise him salvation in exchange of good works.

That's how it works for radical Muslims, for Jonestown people, for Mormons, for the monk who sets himself on fire. It is a wonderful way to control them. You say: do this, do that. follow our leaders and you will go to Heaven.

The beautiful side effect of forgiveness in Jesus is that you are immune to this kind of manipulation. That's why the NWO hates real Christians (not Bush-likes), they are hard to be controlled. You are free to follow your own conscience. You should try it Ahmad.

get_real
04-11-2005, 08:07 AM
James B. Walker
"The Philosophy of the Plan of Salvation"
from pages 26-28:

"Man is a religious being, he will worship...

Man by worshipping, becomes assimilated to the moral character of the object which he worships...

Without an exception, the character of every nation and tribe of the human history has been formed and modified, in a great degree, by the character attributed to their gods."

truebeliever
04-11-2005, 08:56 AM
Could'nt agree more GR.

I've been working on that V shape for you!

Draken
04-12-2005, 02:23 AM
Hey, true and GR, maybe this guy is one for you:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/eliade.html">Mircea Eliade</a>

"A central theme in Eliade's works was that the archaic religions made sacred the world in a fashion no longer available, but through the understanding of the relationship between the sacred and the profane it is possible to begin to understand the world of archaic people. Eliade was a Christian and Jungian (you like Jung, don't you, true?;-)) - he met Carl Gustav Jung for the first time in 1950 - and his works, such as Myths, Dreams and Mysteries, and MYTH AND REALITY (1964), stress the relevance of ancient religions for contemporary man. However, Jung insisted that the images of archaic man are much closer to the European and American psyche than Eliade admitted.

"According to Eliade, shamanism is "one of the archaic techniques of ecstasy - at once mysticism, magic, and 'religion' in the broadest sense of the term". He wanted to restrict the term 'shaman' to those who went into trances and who would address the tribe through a spirit or would visit the spirit world and return. James Frazer described bluntly the evidence of superhuman powers in The Golden Bough (1890) as spurious, but Eliade himself was convinced that shamanism had a paranormal component. In Shamanism (1968) he argued that epics of ancient poets and certain kinds of fairy tales derive from ecstatic journeys and mystical flights. Throughout his life Eliade believed that there are things in life that cannot be explained."

...

"In Cosmos and History: The Myth of the Eternal Return (1954), a book which he was tempted to subtitle Introduction to a Philosophy of History, Eliade distinguishes between religious and non-religious humanity on the basis of the perception of time as heterogenous and homogenous respectively. This distinction will be immediately familiar to students of Henri Bergson as an element of that philosopher's analysis of time and space. Eliade contends that the perception of time as an homogenous, linear, and unrepeatable medium is a peculiarity of modern and non-religious humanity. Archaic or religious humanity (homo religiosus), in comparison, perceives time as heterogenous; that is, as divided between profane time (linear), and sacred time (cyclical and reactualizable). By means of myths and rituals which give access to this sacred time religious humanity protects itself against the 'terror of history', a condition of helplessness before the absolute data of historical time, a form of existential anxiety. In the very process of establishing this distinction, however, Eliade undermines it, insisting that non-religious humanity in any pure sense is a very rare phenomenon. Myth and illud tempus are still operative, albeit concealed, in the world of modern humanity and Eliade clearly regards the attempt to restrict real time to linear historical time as finally self-contradictory. He squarely sets himself against the historicism of Hegel."

truebeliever
04-12-2005, 03:07 AM
If they were a Jungian then that puts me off already.

Even Jung himself wrote in relation to the worship of him and his work..."if all i have done is create another 'ism' then i have failed miserably".

Just a note...have noticed alot of absoloute crap getting around the net on Jung. Including Jung was a Mason! Jung was a DEEPLY flawed man but a sincere truth seeker.

Will have a look.

Draken
04-12-2005, 03:08 AM
I assure you, Eliade is a good man!

Saturnino
04-12-2005, 03:21 PM
I would be careful with anything associated with Jung, a man who took his clues from a spirit guide. It is unbelievable that his occult teachings are accepted by the psychological community as science.
I can't understand neither how anyone can be a Christian Jungian. That's an oxymoron.

truebeliever
04-12-2005, 07:03 PM
You have to take his work in it's totality SAT.

True, Jung is'nt for everyone and unfortunately there tends to be a cult around him.

I've been through the Jung worship stage...however I have been enriched greatly by his work but I had a good mentor keeping my feet on the ground.

He changed alot in his later years.

I beleive he was a sincere truth seeker. Though, like many, deeply flawed in a dozen ways with alot of what is easy to say, mistakes around him...some down right 'unethical' in the extreme.

However, I have heard so many criticisms by people who have never read him.

His work is extremely threatening to the church though ironically Jungs first option with someone in distress was to get them straight back into their original religious mileiu.

He constantly warned of Westerners taking on Eastern philosophies...and the theosophical society despises him.

Any way...this site gives an honest critique of his work. And yes it needs critiquing.

http://www.christiancounselling.on.ca/essays_Carl_Jung's_eastern_&_occult_bias_in_interpreting_archetypes_&_the_psyche.htm

Will get around to Ileade today Drak.

Draken
04-13-2005, 02:19 AM
I realize my mistake of quoting Eliade was a Jungian. Eliade was Eliade. Period. He was in constant contact with one of my favourite writers, Julius Evola.
I have to say I haven't read anything complete of his, only parts and excerpts; I'll start on one of his main works soon, "Shamanism".

Maybe this quote is more adequate:

"Finally religion, systematically understood as the apprehension of relative worth conferred through non-historical realities (including all abstract and imaginary entities) but revealed and confirmed through historical phenomena is seen [by Eliade] as a unifying human universal."

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything of Eliade's writing on the net so far - I haven't been looking that much. I'll try to find something.

truebeliever
04-13-2005, 02:56 AM
Gawd! Cant these people write in plain English?

Well, i've heard it all before. Sure, i agree, we need a more Eastern 'cyclical' as opposed to linear Western thinking style.

We certainly need to get back to nature in some form...get the hands in the dirt.

We need a more direct relationship with the divine...at the moment repeating the same crap and singing a few songs on the weekend is not enough. Church as social club, safe place...but heaven forbid any revelation or experience of the divine!

No, you'd be off to the loony bin. The preist would be pissed off you have a more direct line and then of course you would have a REAL responsibility to the experience and to your community in general. Of course no average Christian wants that! Just staying sheep like will suffice...God will take care of it all...la la la...heaven forbid one should ACT.

As if God gave the human race two arms and legs plus a mouth and all we have to do is lie around and wait for the end!

No wonder Jung wanted a bomb under the Church!

My only concern with this line of thought (back to nature, tribal/community existence, none or limited ownership) is that it is being usurped by the NWO...this is EXACTLY what they want. Easily manageable peasants quietly working the land, taking public transport, owning nothing and doing what they're told.

A sort of Neo-Pagan existence.

Though i like the idea, i hope people are careful and do not throw out Christianity which is the appropriate religious experience for a modern Westerner.

Perhaps those with more knowledge of the bible can help? Has Christianity failed somewhat in it's neglect of the Earth? Of Mother Nature? Is this the problem? If anyone can give me passages from the bible dealing with Mother Nature...

Need more stuff on Eliade Drak.

Draken
04-13-2005, 03:29 AM
<a href="http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5926880">IMAGES AND SYMBOLS: Studies in Religious Symbolism
MIRCEA ELIADE</a>

<a href="http://www.questia.com/library/religion/theology/theologians/mircea-eliade.jsp">More books by Eliade.</a>

<a href="http://www.questia.com/">Check out this site, it's an online library.</a>

truebeliever
04-13-2005, 04:22 AM
"Mircea Eliade's Vision for a New Humanism"...Bahhhh
bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, humbug!

I know you're George Soros Drak!

Time to come out! Cant stay in their forever you Pagan! :-P

Draken
04-13-2005, 04:41 AM
Have you not seen my avatar and signature? ;-)

I agree that title put me off too, actually.

Humanism is putting Man above God.
I don't think those are his own words though; it looks like someone else said that about him, in which case any dimwit unifarsity theoretician could've said that.

Anyway, I reserve myself until I've read that Shamanism book.

truebeliever
04-13-2005, 06:11 AM
Well yes, the eagle, sword and sun are all symobols for the masculine intellect and superior insight.

Whats the avatar? A feminine principal of some kind?

I've just worked out how to put my avatar up...the mighty David Brent...another symbol for the mighty masculine principal...or idiot masculine principal.

I love "The Office". It speaks so well to me of the current crop of managers out there attempting to run the planet.

Useless paper shufflers.

Saturnino
04-13-2005, 07:43 AM
Archetypes are in fact cultural phenomena, not spiritual or methaphysical entities. Myths are also reflections of men`s experiences and aspirations, but there are no automatic spiritual meaning about them. The mistake of Jung and Joseph Campbell is to try to make more of them that what they represent. They turned them into a religion.

Saturnino
04-13-2005, 07:53 AM
Ahmad,

Someone asked me why I thought that you were a Muslim. Well, you presented yourself as one. Now you condemn Muslims. It is very confusing. What do you believe, after all ?

1) A simple question: you seem to be so sure about the need to save yourself. Where do you get this revelation ? Did you figure it out by yourself? Did you have a dream or a vision ? How can you be so sure about it?

I was shown Jesus to be the way to God by the Bible and the testimony of millions. What about your doctrine? Where did it come from?

Why do you avoid answering my question about how much of a sinner you are or how holy you have to be to be saved? Face it, Ahmad, you will never get what it takes by yourself. But it is a good thing you try, it makes you a better citizen here on this earth.

2) For the 100th time:

- God requires toal holiness that can only be accomplished by the substitute sacrifice of Jesus. When you die, it is Jesus` holiness that God sees in you, and because of that you are declared righteous and allowed to Heaven.

- No, this is no excuse for sinning. On the contrary, after receiving Jesus the believer must try harder than ever to be holy and good. But for gratitute, not to earn salvation.

Come on, Ahmad, don`t try to tell me that my faith leads me away from holiness. On the contrary, because of the Holy Spirit, it is easier for the Christian to abstain fromm sin than it is for you.

truebeliever
04-13-2005, 08:16 AM
Yes, but SAT, they must have a grounding. They must have a basis somewhere. They cannot arise from nothing?

The point of Jungs work on archetypes was that patterns of behaviour, as seen through myths and stories from all around the world have a common thread.

True, a simple theory has been turned into a Religion by some. I dont beleive that was Jungs intention.

Alot of people use the theory of archetypes as an attempt at making the miracle and endless variety of human behaviour and experience into a 'nothing but'. Complete, nihlistic, reductionist thinking.

I believe everyone can benefit from drawing out the various behaviour patterns they have present in themselves and naming them like you name the Greek Pantheon. However, after a time, once you have become comfortable with yourself and have gained an element of self knowledge you can relax and be you...it's at that point, the Christian faith came for me. For some reason the Christian faith was the beginning and the final end for me.

Perhaps it's very different for other people. I think alot of people never move beyond disentangling themselves from themselves and get stuck in all this psychological theory.

During this time alot of arrogance and hubris comes up and out goes the baby with the bathwater.

Ahmad
04-13-2005, 12:39 PM
What do you believe, after all ?

We, the Submitters believe in all the scriptures sent down from God, we believe in all the messengers and prophets, we do not revere any other creature beside God, to Him alone we are submitters.


you seem to be so sure about the need to save yourself. Where do you get this revelation ? Did you figure it out by yourself? Did you have a dream or a vision ? How can you be so sure about it?

From the final proven testament, Quran. The book that confirms and supercedes all the previous scriptures.


I was shown Jesus to be the way to God by the Bible and the testimony of millions. What about your doctrine? Where did it come from?


Submission is a natural instinct in all of us, the only way to God, it is the need to depend, rely on and put our trust in the Creator alone, and not in the creatures. We believe that God is closer to us than our jugular veins, there are no barriers, nor middle men inbetween. And because God is the Most Merciful, He sent us a final message by Muhammad to remind us of this natural instinct.

[30:30] Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict monotheism. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.


Why do you avoid answering my question about how much of a sinner you are or how holy you have to be to be saved? Face it, Ahmad, you will never get what it takes by yourself. But it is a good thing you try, it makes you a better citizen here on this earth.

Ofcourse i do sin!, but God promised that all the minor offenses will be forgiven if we are sincere enough in seeking His forgivness, through righteous work and resisting our sinful lusts. A sin doesn't stick like a Glue! it can be washed clean. As long as we are not on the death bed, every minute we can start anew, allover again, however God knows our inner most intentions, he knows who insists on sinning knowingly and who is in a constant inner battle with the devil and his ego.It is all up to God to open the door of forgivness, however it is we who have to go knock on the door!.

You have to prove the strength of your faith in God alone, by leading a righteous life and passing the daily tests as much as you can, God never burdens any soul beyond its means, He is the Most Merciful.

- God requires toal holiness that can only be accomplished by the substitute sacrifice of Jesus. When you die, it is Jesus` holiness that God sees in you, and because of that you are declared righteous and allowed to Heaven.


This is a gross lie propagated by Satan, eventhough we all have to aspire to be 100% pure, it is impossible to achieve, as nobody is perfect, we are all fallible including Jesus, the test is difficult but it's not impossible, it is the continous struggle with Satan's suggestions that earns you credit, the process itself earns you salvation.

It is none but Satan who want to convince us that we cannot do it on our own, he will always offer someone else to take the responsbility away from us, you should wake up and realize that it is a big lie, it is YOU who are responsible of your fate. Reclaim your reponsbility, Satan has stolen it from you!.

Every individual is responsible for his own sins, Jesus on the Judgment day will denounce all his worshipers and will declare that he never taught his followers any of these blasphemies.


The Dead Messengers Totally Unaware

[5:109] The day will come when GOD will summon the messengers and ask them, "How was the response to you?" They will say, "We have no knowledge. You are the Knower of all secrets."

[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, `This is obviously magic.'

[5:111] "Recall that I inspired the disciples: `You shall believe in Me and My messenger.' They said, `We have believed, and bear witness that we are submitters.' "

The Feast

[5:112] Recall that the disciples said, "O Jesus, son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a feast from the sky?" He said, "You should reverence GOD, if you are believers."

[5:113] They said, "We wish to eat from it, and to reassure our hearts, and to know for sure that you have told us the truth. We will serve as witnesses thereof."

Greater Miracles Bring Greater Responsibility*

[5:114] Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "Our god, our Lord, send down to us a feast from the sky. Let it bring plenty for each and every one of us, and a sign from You. Provide for us; You are the best Provider."
Footnote

[5:115] GOD said, "I am sending it down. Anyone among you who disbelieves after this, I will punish him as I never punished anyone else."*
Footnote

On The Day Of Resurrection

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary,* did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.
Footnote

[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.

[5:118] "If You punish them, they are Your constituents. If You forgive them, You are the Almighty, Most Wise."

[5:119] GOD will proclaim, "This is a day when the truthful will be saved by their truthfulness." They have deserved gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. This is the greatest triumph.

[5:120] To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything in them, and He is Omnipotent.

*5:116 It is noteworthy that the Quran consistently calls Jesus "son of Mary" and the Bible calls him "son of man". God knew that some will blaspheme and call him "son of God"! Rashad Khalifa



- No, this is no excuse for sinning. On the contrary, after receiving Jesus the believer must try harder than ever to be holy and good. But for gratitute, not to earn salvation.


What is wrong with your logic? do we take a test to pass it, or we pass it first and then take it for luxury!. If i am sure that i have already been redeemed, why would i work hard or resist my sinfull lusts anymore!!

The only way i know of to really follow Jesus is to follow the teachings God sent us through him.

Come on, Ahmad, don`t try to tell me that my faith leads me away from holiness.


Yes, your faith is leading you straight to hell, believe it or not. All the scriptures say that those who idolize any creature beside God has a reserved seat in the inferno, however you still have a chance to repent and purify yourself from the shackles of idol-worship, can't you observe God alone?



[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Saturnino
04-13-2005, 04:04 PM
Ahmad,

You are a Muslim, or a Mohamedian, since your source of beliefs come from Mohamed. Therefore, the only proof you have of your beliefs is the testimony of a tribal chief who killed and cheated, against the testimony of the sinless Jesus. I still choose Jesus. Why Mohamed's visions would supersede the New Testament ? Because he had a vision ? I choose not to believe Mohamed. I believe Jesus is God, I believe in the Trinity. I believe worshipping Jesus is worshipping God.

Of course you classify all your sins as MINOR. How do you know that they are small ? The Bible tells us that a single MINOR sin is enough to separate us from God. You are up to a big surprise if you think your efforts are enough to make you acceptable to God. And I don`t dispute that you try hard and sincerely, but it will never be enough. What a burden you must carry !

It is interesting that you believe that forgiveness is a free pass to sin. It is not, and I am sure that you understood that very well.

Your problem is with Jesus and His offer of forgiveness, which you reject. OK. You are absolutely free not to acceppt Him as Savior, but I would really appreciate if you stopped blaming Christianity for being an excuse to sin. You know that the New Testament doesn`t say that (Paul says explicitly in the book of Romans that grace is not an excuse for sinning) and serious Christians don`t think that they are free to sin. It is really unfair if you keep blaming us.

Even though I think Muslims will not be saved, I reckon that serious Muslims may be sincerily trying to be good in the way they know best, so it would be fine if you could return me (and all Christians) this courtesy.

Ahmad
04-14-2005, 02:18 AM
Peace,

Muhamedians ("Muslims") are those who worship and revere Muhammad besides God, same like the Christians who worship the christ instead of God.

As for the Submitters, they worship GOD ALONE.

you asked why would Quran supersede the bible, because God said so,

[5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.


And we have a physical incontrovertible proof that only God is god, and that every letter in Quran is devinely authored, do you have a proof that Jesus is God?

www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html

Draken
04-14-2005, 03:29 AM
Quran: Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation.

But He didn't, did He, Ahmad?

Every people got their Revelation in the form of the religion they adhere to. God is the source of all the manifested world religions, i.e. Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. If God would've wanted everyone to have the same religion He would've only given us ONE RELIGION, like the Quran says.

If people of different religions realized that following the religion they were specifically given by God, they are ACTUALLY IN SPIRITUAL UNITY with the multiplicity of other God-given religions. Then there would be NO NEED for ONE religion, because everyone would realize their UNITY WITH GOD, and conversely with eachother.

A quote from a <a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/schuongue.html">lecture by Martin Lings on Schuon</a>:

"He once said to me: "If there was a religion which I did not love, I would not rest until I loved it." For him the religions were among the great signs of God, each one to be marveled at, and he demanded this attitude from his disciples insofar as they were capable of it."(My emphasis./Draken)

This "one religion for all" dogma you're preaching is defective, Ahmad.

Ahmad
04-14-2005, 05:02 AM
Peace Draken,

Ok, let's think about it in a more logical way:

1- First: what is religion? i believe it is mainly the concept of worshipping (one god/gods) + a statute book (law)

2- God states clearly in Quran that all the prophets and messengers along the history of mankind followed the same concept, which is Submission to God alone.

3- Now, about the law, it has been sent in stages, where different people at different times were given a specific law to follow. Quran states that all these books (ancient manuscripts or the bible) were actually the same scripture in different manifestations to suit the spiritual and mental level of the respective people and era.

4- God further clarifies that when a prophet comes with a book of prophecy (&law) it is but a test to see if the followers of the previous book are still aware of the message (underlying the laws) of one god or have they been blinded and lost the spirit!. Thus the Jews were required to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, because it confirms their book, however they had already long lost the message of the Torah (e.g: they prohibited doing anything on the Sabbath, even healing or rescuing the people!), and that's why God supported Jesus with miracles in order to reassure their hearts that the message is from God.

5- Quran comes in the end of this long list of revelations from God, it is the final book of law that should govern life on earth if humanity want to prosper. But because Muhammad didn't come with a miracle, God states that at his time the book itself was unmatched in its language and literal style, it was a miracle in itself.

6- But it is God's system to allow Satan to tamper with his word, in order to test the generations to come, but he always sends a new prophet with a new book confirming and superseding the previous one, this new book is mainly aimed at exposing the injections and falsehood added to the previous message, thus it restores the straying message back on track, to its original pristine Abrahamic form.

7- How about Quran? when God says that it is the final book, and no other book will come to confirm and purify it, how can we be sure that it is still intact? the divine answer was embedding a superhuman mathematical structure within the text, and revealing it 1400 years after the book's revelation.

8- This is a brilliant idea, since any attempt at tampering with the book can be easily exposed by means of the mathematical structure.

9- This leaves us with a final tetsament that is proven and that confirms and supresedes all the previous books (includin any divine book the Indians recieved), all humanity should follow that one book revealed through Muhammad.

10- The illusion of different religions is because of Satan, he divided the one religion. For example think of it as a long train formed of several cars, and the tracks represent a timeline, the train starts its journey with one car, the passengers start getting occupied with the journey itself and forget about the destination! gradually more and more people ask the driver for frequent stops to take rest, play and enjoy the journey! the driver eventually joins the crowd in the fun untill they all forget about the gaol!, at this point when the car is about to completely drift away from the original track..God sends a new prophet with a new car to pull the train forward and carry the few people still mindfull of the message and willing to complete the journey. Many drop out, however the train keeps moving forward.

What i want to say is that the religions of today are nothing but these groups of people who lost the main message, whose developement was arrested in the visible laws, to which they added more of their own man-made laws, thus the message got contaminated.

11- My message is to ask everybody to get on the train, some will accept the invitation, some will prefer their inherited religions. God knows that not 100% will get united again, that there will always be people who are still in the arrested development stage, therefore for these people we say, let us come to a logical agreement that we will not worship anybody besides God.

The bottom line is, to God is our ultimate destiny and we will all be returned to Him, to be informed of our deeds. If you don't want to follow our book of law, then at least worship the one god alone!

[3:64] Say, "O followers of the scripture, let us come to a logical agreement between us and you: that we shall not worship except GOD; that we never set up any idols besides Him, nor set up any human beings as lords beside GOD." If they turn away, say, "Bear witness that we are submitters."

mikeenviro
06-21-2005, 11:23 AM
I believe Mircea Eliade is a favorite author of the Freemasons. The Italian Freemasons quote from his books ( http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/venzi3_en.html ). In the book "The Sacred and the Profane", Mr. Eliade writes (with flimsy detail) that man imitates the gods and that these are sacred acts even when man allows himself to be led into acts that verged on madness, depravity, and crime (p.104). There are unsavory elements of mankind (mafia, gangs, etc.) that continue to leverage mankind into further acts of crime when they have knowledge a person has committed crimes. Leverage is used by so many parties to get what they want for nothing. Mircea Eliade is one of those authors that enables the belief that the commission of crimes are sacred acts.

The Freemason organization is a criminal’s paradise. Where else can so many willing persons, or partners in crime, be found. Requirements to always assist a brother in need, always keep a brother’s secrets (or knowledge of crimes, fraud and corruption) and perjure yourself to protect a brother are prime examples of how people can be leveraged. Freemasons have offered themselves to organized crime from time immemorial. John Follain, in his book “A Dishonored Society”, writes of the link between the Italian Mafia and Freemasonry. Several other sources also document the manner in which the United States placed many mafioso within the Italian government during World War II as they were fighting the Nazis. This support proved valuable to the Mafia as it resuscitated the organization after years of battling the fascists. The similarities between the Mafia and Freemasonry, besides those described above, also include intimidation. There is considerable documentation regarding the vows Freemasons take where they state awful blood oaths identifying what would happen to themselves should they give up their organization’s secrets. The mafia and Freemasons main purpose is to operate to corrupt all before them in obeisance to the Devil.

The Freemasons give hints about whom they worship in different sources. Albert Pike, the most celebrated Sovereign Grand Commander in American Freemason history, has kind words for Lucifer in his book “Morals and Dogma”. Also, the book “Lexicon of Freemasonry” omits definitions for the Devil, Lucifer and Satan. The Freemasons have judged that profane eyes cannot handle their definitions so they leave them as esoteric knowledge to be obtained. As the Freemasons perpetrate crimes in order to corrupt one might question the origination of this mandate. In the Lexicon of Freemasonry it is written that an angel of the Lord spoke to Moses from the burning bush but yet in another location in the book it is identified to have been God. How can both terms have been used for the one event? In Freemasonry teachings for high degrees, Lucifer is taught to be God. Lucifer is also generally accepted to have been an angel of the Lord. Being disingenuous, Lucifer would have intended the stating of the ten commandments to be an exoteric front and that the recipient would know that they should be violated.

There is a word used by the Mafia; omerta, meaning silence. Heavily ingrained in American society is the term; code of silence. You hear of it amongst the police to protect rulebreaking policemen. Codes of silence are also prevalent amongst firefighters, freemasons, fraternity and sorority members, sports personages and hospital employees. Codes of silence corrupt many as people choose to remain silent when faced with knowledge of crimes, fraud or rulebreaking. We’ve been a society of accomplices in the face of wrongdoing for hundreds of years since the earliest days of this nation. The founding fathers imprinted the motto “Mind your business” upon legal tender of the United States. Mind your business has the esoteric meaning of keeping quiet in the face of wrongdoing or evil.

The masonic calendar identifies that 6000 years from the creation of the world transpired in 2000 CE. Adjusting the 6000 solar years for lunar years means that 6000 lunar years was attained on or about 1814. The freemasons amongst the founding fathers feverishly went about designing Washington DC as a Luciferian tribute with the street plan incorporating Luciferian symbols. The original plan for the Washington monument included a Greek temple at its base. The founding fathers exoterically raised the goddess Liberty as a symbol for the fledgling nation. Esoterically, these Freemasons acknowledged Liber (another name for Dionysus) as supreme. This relationship is allegorical for the eclipse of Liberty on several fronts. The citizens of the United States are currently seeing their liberties disappearing with the promulgation and extension of the Patriot Act. All this overt activity by the Freemasons led to a relatively short-lived anti-masonic backlash. This is a subject that is sorely absent from school textbooks.

Innumerable today are persons in industry that are masonic-minded, showing no moral restraint. The news often includes stories of CFOs and accountants falsifying company’s financial statements, natural gas traders gloating over screwing over California residents, insurance corporation employees rigging bids to steer business to companies giving them kickbacks, mutual fund companies allowing late trading and market timing and regulators looking the other way when crimes are committed. What you see in the news is only the tip of the iceberg. The powers that be only expose enough corruption to convince the public that they are doing something about the pervasive corruption. The number of people willingly going along with the shams vastly outnumbers those that come forward to put a stop to the shameful acts. Sigmund Freud in the book “The Future of an Illusion” said it best; “There are countless civilized people who would shrink from murder or incest but who do not deny themselves the satisfaction of their avarice, their aggressive urges or their sexual lusts, and who do not hesitate to injure other people by lies, fraud and calumny, so long as they can remain unpunished for it; and this, no doubt, has always been so through the ages of civilization”.

What the Freemasons and like-minded people have done is to sell human society downstream in order for personal success. What is especially offensive about the Freemasons and secret societies is that they spread their corruption behind the scenes while putting up a whitewashed front. The exoteric front of Freemasonry sounds harmless. Their books talk of coming to a brothers assistance, etc. but they base this on an evil interpretation of Mosaic Law. They have fallen to man’s basest desires. St. Cyril of Jerusalem said it best in his “Ten Points of Doctrine” when he esoterically warned of secret societies when he said “only the members are distinguished (inferred: not their methods)”. Freemasons and secret societies also use members with sterling reputations to do the dirty work of corrupting. This makes their intent unquestionable and enhances their chances of getting away with crimes. In Skull and Bones parlance “crooking” is only the start of the corruption. As persons become corrupted, corrupt persons additionally corrupt them with more dirty deeds. A term often used by Freemasons is “the end justifies the means”. Their end is a corrupt world that is blackmailed into silence in the face of evil and is beholden to the Devil. Freemasons also intentionally mislead persons. As Albert Pike says in “Morals and Dogma”; “Part of the symbols are displayed there to initiates, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them”. A strategem also used by Freemasons and Skull and Bones is disinformation. From the game Illuminati, enjoyed by tens of thousands nationwide, one finds the definition for the word disinformation. Illuminati defines it as to mix as much falsehood in with the facts to lead any researchers on a wild goose chase. The more convinced they are in the fabrication, the more embarrassed they will be when proven wrong. This tends to lower the credibility of the researchers. Certainly not all Freemasons and secret society members are of such mind. Many join without knowing the secrets of the organization and they are at risk.

Many noteworthy personages (Martin Luther and John Knox) throughout history have taken the position that the devil is Lord of the World. It also follows that either God is powerless, not concerned with earthly matters or is non-existent. This Lord has used drivers (one of which was Orpheus) in which to additionally corrupt mankind. Mankind has a hard time keeping free of corruption. Man takes on so many burdens (e.g., debt through acquisitions and keeping up with the Jones’, additional family members, etc.) where they have to abide by a corrupt society’s unwritten rules in order to pay their bills. This also leverages them into additional unethical acts as their controlling entity sees fit. A claim made against the Freemasons has been that they rewrite history, but this act has been undertaken by many leveraged persons. One can read Psalms, Romans 7, and Matthew 12 to see that the authors write that lawless persons can be forgiven but doing this just leads to the voracious committal of crimes. Diodorus Siculus writes that crime was written into the story of the parceling out of Osiris’ body parts in order to spread the crimes’ impact to additional partners. Unfortunately, this has been a lesson too well understood by humanity.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem’s Ten Points of Doctrine describes a two God system where the most powerful god sounds remarkably like Osiris-Dionysus, the god that taught man how to cultivate the vine. Osiris-Dionysus does not respect man’s efforts to gain knowledge, especially concerning the lesser god. It should also be said that Cyril was not a supporter of the book of Revelation (of St. John). Amongst the topics of the book Revelation, it lays out the battle between the Archangel Michael and the Devil (Dionysus as the dragon). There is also a key moment prior to the battle where white robes are handed out. The handing out of white robes is allegorical to the application of gypsum to the faces of the Titans before they killed Dionysus. Gypsum powder was also used during religious ceremonies for followers of the Dionysian mysteries. An attribute assumed by the Catholic faith is the wearing of white robes during religious ceremonies. Revelation does not conclude the battle between the Archangel Michael and Dionysus. The global elite that have bought into the salvation through crime story do not want to see Dionysus lose and would rather continue to dance to his tune of fraud, lies and crime. They are happy with the status quo, personal success at the cost of the health of humankind. The author Will Durant, in his book “The Life of Greece” describes Dionysus as the most troublesome god. Dionysus is also a master of role-reversals and wishes to be acknowledged as a god rather than the devil. It is the role reversal that the elite fear for they could lose their grip on power. It is better to understand the works of Dionysus as evil acts (crime, corruption, persecution and fraud) as millions of persons throughout history have been harmed for the enrichment of the few (society’s elite). Unfortunately, so many people have bought into his game in a trusting fashion without knowledge of what Dionysus has in mind. Dionysus’ occultic empire has been churning away for many millennia feeding on mankind’s poor behavior.