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Draken
04-11-2005, 11:29 AM
Here comes a few questions to Ahmad and his Submitters. I acknowledge the fact that this article does not provide any backup for their allegations of Zionist funding etc.

<a href="http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submitters.htm">Zionist Conspiracies Against Islam:
Rashad Khalifa's Cult</a>

"You'll find the most disastrous campaigns by Jews, Qadianis, Shia, and other enemies of Islam who say, "Just hold fast to Qur'an and don't follow Hadiths because Hadiths aren't reliable." Sayyidina Rasulullah ((may Peace Be Upon Him)) forewarns Muslims Beware of the time when people sitting on cushions, relaxing, say 'just follow Qur'an and don't follow Hadiths'. In addition to the groups named above there is a wave of pro-Zionists propagating a false religion, but trying to use the name of Islam. These people may have Arabic (or Urdu/Farsi) names, dress half-way like Muslims, and use some Arabic terminology, but they are NOT Muslims, nor are they anywhere close to being Muslim! These shayateen are members of an international cult that calls itself "The Submitters," founded by a dajjal named Dr. Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. The mission of this Zionist-backed organization is to wage an unholy war against Hadith and the Sunnah of Sayyidina wa Mawlana Muhammad ((may Peace Be Upon Him)) while professing to follow nothing but the Holy Qur'an.

Many Muslims have heard the name "Rashad Khalifa," but few know the true identity of this wretch. The most interesting fact about this dajjal is that he was NEVER Muslim. Rashad Khalifa was a Coptic Christian from Egypt and when Allah sent that wretch to the Hell-Fire, he died a Coptic Christian (he was assasinated by a Muslim). His real name was Richard Kalif and he was registered as Richard both in Egypt and in America, but at no point in his cursed life did he ever become Muslim. In order to establish a cult in America and gain flexibility, the Zionists funded him to establish his following in Tucson, Arizona. He was paid by the Jews not only to spread his cult in America, but to produce his own (uneducated and fully opinionated) "commentary" of the Holy Qur'an, with the intent of levying an attack against Hadith & Sunnah and branding those Muslims who follow the Sunnah of Sayyidina Rasulullah (may peace of God be upon him) as being "false Muslims" and heretics. Such an example of this is found on page 94 of his commentary, titled Quran: The Final Scripture, where he wrote:

"When they grow up in an environment that equates goodness with belief in God and the Hereafter, consequently this person may profess belief in God and the Hereafter; and in order to be good while in fact, his innermost convictions are contrary. [he then makes reference to the Holy Qur'an, referring to ayats unrelated to his feeble point] God teaches us in these verses that the invention of Hadith and/or Sunnah was designed to distinguish the true Muslims from the false Muslims. The true Muslims upheld the Qur'an, the whole Qur'an, and nothing but the Qur'an."

Of course, he means the "false Muslims" uphold the Sunnah of Sayyidina wa Mawlana Muhammad ((may Peace Be Upon Him)). Keep in mind, Richard, alias "Rashad Khalifa" was a Coptic Christian.

In his own arrogance and filth, Richard claimed to be a Messanger of God, in the same manner the dajjal by the name Ghulam Ahmad Qadian did. In his retarded claim to Messengerhood, he declared himself to be receptive of revelation (revelation, which is specifically for the Prophets of Allah) and that Allah has revealed to him a "new Sunnah," asserting that the Sunnah of Sayyidina Rasulullah ((may Peace Be Upon Him)) was invented by Shaytan. May Allah give that Coptic wretch what he deserves! The most popular of the claims of this false prophet is the fitnah of the "miracle" of the number 19. Though a very absurd and ridiculous claim the "Submitters" make, Muslims should be well aware that the "number 19 phenomena" of Mr. Richard and his "mathematical scheme of Qur'an" is purely his freemason insertions into religion. It is important to know that most of his statistics were totally false. Yes, like so many other cults, the Submitters are heavily tied into Masonic orders. In a very wasteful effort he and his cult followers produced many books in their pathetic attempt to support his ideologies with contorted "Islamic history" which is "coincidentally" written by Zionists whose aims are to defame and desecrate the name of al-Islam.

His cult now assumes new names in order to disguise their program. They now go by the following names:

1. The Submitters (most commonly used name by them as they replace ISLAM with "Submission." Since they know very well that REAL Muslims will undergo hardship and many trials due to the fact that they are Muslim, they don't call themselves MUSLIM, but call themselves Submitters.)
2. International Community of Submitters
3. The Submission
4. Qur'anic Islam Movement (an offshoot of Mr. Richard's group from Pakistan)

As previously stated, the mission of these kuffar is to attack one of the basic structures of Islam, which is the Sunnah of The Holy Last Messenger ((may Peace Be Upon Him)). There are numerous beliefs and assertions these shayateen make which clearly expose their anti-Islamic agenda and pagan beliefs. For example, 1.) They believe that Sayyidina Muhammad ((may Peace Be Upon Him)) wrote the Holy Qur'an himself. 2.) They disbelieve the Kalimah's second half, which is MUHAMMAD is the Messanger of Allah. 3.) They reject many verses of the Holy Qur'an. Bear in mind that there is no difference between their beliefs and that of Iblis (Satan), because Iblis accepts the first half of the Kalimah (Laa ilaaha illallah), but rejects the second half.

No matter what state Sayyidina Muhammad ((may Peace Be Upon Him)) was in, his blessed words were either revelation or in the light of revelation, and the Almighty Allah proves it to all of mankind in Surat an-Najm were He says:

"And he (Muhammad) does not say anything from his own hawaa (desires, wishes). Indeed he says what is revelation or in light of revelation."

Anyone who disbelieves in this doesn't believe in Holy Qur'an.

The followers of Mr. Richard Kalif, alias Rashad Khalifa (may Allah give that wretch what he deserves, no matter what name he assumed), are neither Muslim nor are they to be regarded as Islamic in any shape or form, for their only motive is to rebel against Islam via attacking Hadith, Sunnah, and the blessed personality of Sayyidina wa Mawlana Muhammad ((may Peace Be Upon Him)). They come in the guise of people who strongly attack non-Muslim religions, but Allah exposes them for who they are by their own words, as they slide in attacks against common sense Shari'ah issues, such as eating pork or haram meat, etc. May Allah protect Muslims from the satanic rhetoric of this cult and other Zionist organizations bent on destroying al-Islam from the inside as well as the outside. Aameen."

-----------------------

There's more.
This from another article that mentions the problematic Khalifa.

I understand there is antagonism and tension in all religions but so far Ahmad has not illuminated these problems.


"Mr Ahmad Deedat has been acclaimed as a hero and the defender of faith by many Muslims. However, there are some who see him as the opposite."
FROM THE MUSLIM DIGEST:

"Mr Ahmed Deedat, the head of Islamic Propagation Centre, has openly admitted that he is no man of letters as far as secular knowledge is concerned, and in so far as Islamic knowledge is concerned, from his own admission, he has gleaned it from those who have inspired him, including individuals such as JOSEPH PERDU, the BAHAI, who in the 1950's came to South Africa to undermine the faith of the Muslims, and who was thoroughly exposed by us to leave South Africa during that period. The exposure of Perdu is contained in a number of pamphlets brought out by us, and also in several issues of the Muslim Digest."

<a href="http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Deedat/deedat.html">"DEEDAT'S GURU NO. 2</a>

DEEDAT'S GREAT 'SERVANT OF ISLAM' RASHAD KHALIFA NOW SAYS:
TWO FALSE VERSES UNVEILED IN QUR'AN!

RASHAD KHALIFA, inventor of the spurious theory of Number 19, [By the use of numerology it claims that there is an arithmetic pattern based on the number 19 running through the Qur'an] cleverly camouflaged his hypocrisy and sinister designs by wearing the mask of a sincere Muslim. Having beguiled the Muslim community into believing his new-fangled theory of number 19, he is now gradually unmasking himself and revealing his true identity. The first glimpse of Rashad Khalifa's hypocrisy came into light when he declared in his bulletin, MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE, of March, 1985, that:

"THE COMPUTER EXPOSES AN HISTORICAL CRIME; TAMPERING WITH THE WORD OF GOD; TWO FALSE VERSES UNVEILED IN QUR'AN; AN INVITATION TO ALL MUSLIMS TO EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE BEFORE REMOVING THE FALSEHOOD."

In the April 1985 issue of Rashad Khalifa's MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE, a bold sub-heading tells the Muslim world: "MORE EVIDENCE CONFIRMS THE FALSEHOOD OF THE LAST TWO VERSES OF SURAH 9."

PARTNER

We accept his invitation to "examine the evidence". Before doing so, however, we wish to remove another mask and expose the face of his partner in this insidious crime against the Holy Qur'an. the man who became instrumental in disseminating the nefarious idea of Rashad Khalifa is none other than the recipient of the King Faisal Award from the Saudi Arabian Government for his "outstanding services" to Islam - MR AHMAD DEEDAT.

Ahmad Deedat's fascination and preoccupation with the theory of No. 19 became an obsession; and despite rational criticisms and rebuttal of the theory by prominent writers throughout the Muslim world, he (Ahmad Deedat) has remained its steadfast champion and an ardent supporter of his mentor, Rashad Khalifa, whom he calls "that great servant of Islam".

"HIS MASTER'S VOICE"

Mr Ahmad Deedat wrote a tract in 1979 entitled AL-QUR'AN: THE ULTIMATE MIRACLE, in which he slavishly echoed Rashad Khalifa's ideas. In fact Ahmad Deedat effectively became "His Master's Voice". He (Ahmad Deedat) says in his tract:

"I have in all humility taken the liberty of bringing the scientific findings of that great servant of Islam - Dr Rashad Khalifa Ph.D., in my own humble way... In it I have freely utilised Dr Rashad Khalifa's data and in places I have used his actual eloquent words verbatim for lack of better expression." (Deedat in his booklet - "Al-Qur'an - the Ultimate Miracle").

This tract of Deedat is freely distributed from Deedat's headquarters in Durban, South Africa. In October 1985 he published its First Reproduction in U.K. (20 000 copies) for free distribution. Ahmad Deedat thus became an accomplice of Rashad Khalifa by aiding and abetting him in his avowed aim to attack the integrity of the Holy Qur'an." (M.D. p.25-26)

"And now Rashad Khalifa, Deedat's GURU number 2, says in his recent bulletin called, " MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE " that the last two verses in the Qur'an in Sura nine are false, and should not form part of the Qur'an! - Muslim perspective - April, 1985. Muslims all over the world are labelling Rashad Khalifa as a Murtad, some say he is a Kafer, others say, he is a Munafiq, still others say he is not a Muslim, and is outside the pale of Islam. Now if Ahmed Deedat has derived his Islamic knowledge from such a dubious authority as Khalifa, then it stands to reason that Deedat has no first hand knowledge of ISLAM at all and that his ( Deedat's ) knowledge of Islam is not only shallow and second hand, but DANGEROUS.

Rashad Khalifa has openly committed KUFR and it must follow therefore that Deedat is pedaling Rashad Khalifa's KUFR to unsuspecting Muslims through his lectures on Rashad Khalifa's theories and booklets, of which there is no doubt." (M.D. p.53)"

--------------------

And in conclusion, and support, the following is an extract from an article on the Miracle of 19 issue:


<a href="http://19.org/index.php?id=14,31,0,0,1,0">Code 19: The Real Bible Code
Edip YŁksel</a>

"No, don't you see? This would be different. This isn't just starting the universe out with some precise mathematical laws that determine physics and chemistry. This is a message. Whoever makes the universe hides messages in transcendental numbers so they'll be read fifteen billion years later when intelligent life finally evolves. I criticized you and Rankin the time we first met for not understanding this. 'If God wanted us to know that he existed, why didn't he send us an unambiguous message?' I asked. Remember?"

"I remember very well. You think God is a mathematician."

"Something like that. If what we're told is true. If this isn't a wild-goose chase. If there's a message hiding in pi and not one of the infinity of other transcendental numbers. That's a lot of ifs."

"You're looking for Revelation in arithmetic. I know a better way."

"Palmer, this is the only way. This is the only thing that would convince a skeptic. Imagine we find something. It doesn't have to be tremendously complicated. Just something more orderly than could accumulate by chance that many digits into pi. That's all we need. Then mathematicians all over the world can find exactly the same pattern or message or whatever it proves to be. Then there are no sectarian divisions. Everybody begins reading the same Scripture. No one could then argue that the key miracle in the religion was some conjurer's trick, or that later historians had falsified the record, or that it's just hysteria or delusion or a substitute parent for when we grow up. Everyone could be a believer." (Sagan, Carl. Contact. Simon and Schuster. New York: 1985, p 418-419)

The above excerpts are quoted from CONTACT, a book by Dr. Carl Sagan the late astronomer who became popular with the TV series, Cosmos. Sagan's CONTACT is a novel expression of philosopher's prime dream: Mathematical evidence for God's existence.

Mathematics is considered as an a priori, that is knowledge gained independently of experience. Most of the philosophers highly relied on mathematics. Descartes who employed extreme doubt as a method to reach the knowledge (certainty) could not doubt from mathematics. The language of mathematics is universal."

Ahmad
04-11-2005, 12:31 PM
Peace Draken,

I thought you were smarter than that!. After all your readings, you still can't recognize clear 'character assasination'!.

I don't see any need to answer these attacks on the messenger of the covenant Rashad Khalifa, his message is enough.

However just to dispel the lies, here are some facts:

1- Rashad Khalifa was the son of a leader of a muslim sufi sect in Egypt, his father named that sect after his eldest son, Rashad, he is not Christian.

2- Whatever doesn't agree with the traditionalists' view in the muslim countries, they call it a zionist conspiracy!. Rashad Khalifa was initially welcomed in the muslim world for discovering the mathematical miracle of Quran, however when he proclaimed that he is a messenger of God with a specific message to purify the religion of Abraham from the satanic distortions (injected in Judaism, Christianity and Islam) the same muslims were outraged, for how dare he question their long held traditions (Hadith books)!

3- The second website you mention (19.org) is highly questinable, as his owner, who was a follower of Rashad, soon changed his teachings and followed his opinion instead of the mssenger's' Quran backed opinion. (e.g: changed the contact prayer from 5 to 3 a day!).


Conclusion: I recommend that you read and reflect on the message itself, why do you want other people's opinion? can't you decide for yourself!

The message of Rashad Khalifa can only be found in the 'authorized english translation of Quran' and its 38 appendices that can be found here:

http://www.submission.org/Q-T.html (translation)


http://www.submission.org/quran/apps.html (appendices)

Draken
04-11-2005, 01:45 PM
Ahmad, it was bound to happen sooner or later - someone was going to check up on what has been written about Rashad Khalifa and Traditional Islam's opinion on The Submitter cult. It just happened to be me.

I find it interesting though that the Submitters seem to create a lot of tension and split within the Muslim communities, as if there wasn't enough of that. It seems to me that the effect of the Submitters is the breaking up and splintering and fragmentation of the last religion to seriously challenge the Western Secular Humanist lifestyle we've had shoved down our necks.

I do recognize character assassination but the questions and doubts I had before I read these articles are still intact. Sorry Ahmad, but I'm simply not convinced. I still think you have good, sound ideas about a lot of things and I think you have your heart in the right place but I'm not joining the Submitters just yet.

To me God is much more than a prime number.

Truth, Beauty, Love

Ahmad
04-11-2005, 02:02 PM
"It seems to me that the effect of the Submitters is the breaking up and splintering and fragmentation of the last religion to seriously challenge the Western Secular Humanist lifestyle"


Alot of writers these days think as you that Islam is the last religion to seriously challenge the western corruption, i understand their position, it's like 'my enemy's enemy is my friend', however they miss a glaring fact, Islam is not any better than the other religions which has been infiltrated, and totally subverted by Satan.

Islam is already divided beyond imagination, Sunni, Shi'a and hundreds of Sufi sects!. Submission is the Original religion of God, the creed of Abraham and all the prophets, including Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad. Submission condemns the three major religions because of sectarianism against God's clear commandment of unity.


"I do recognize character assassination but the questions and doubts I had before I read these articles are still intact"

So why don't you post your 'questions and doubts'? i will be glad to answer you.

Draken
04-11-2005, 02:29 PM
I have asked my questions and stated my doubts and you have tried to answer me in our exchange of PMs.

If you want you can post our PMs. You have my permission.

Apart from that discussion, you say that "Submission is the Original religion of God, the creed of Abraham and all the prophets, including Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad."

So it's the original Semite religion.

I'm not Semite. To me the original religion of the Magyars is much closer than any Abrahamic religion.

For you Submission is closest. Fine.

Can I ask a personal question:

Are you actually Japanese or Egyptian by birth?

TerraNovan
04-11-2005, 02:42 PM
Richard Khalif, when charged with sexually assaulting a 16 year old girl, plead no contest to the charge.

Rape Case (http://64.70.134.35/rk_rape_case.htm)

I haven't bothered to bring this up as I see Ahmad for the fraud he is.

Ahmad
04-11-2005, 02:46 PM
"So it's the original Semite religion."

There is no such thing as a semite religion. Submission is a message to all the people, from every color, race and language.

[3:19] The only religion approved by GOD is "Submission." Ironically, those who have received the scripture are the ones who dispute this fact, despite the knowledge they have received, due to jealousy. For such rejectors of GOD's revelations, GOD is most strict in reckoning.


I am Egyptian by birth, but my mother is Japanese.

P.S: So these are all your questions?!

Ahmad
04-11-2005, 03:00 PM
TerraNovan,


You should be ashamed of yourself for joining the character assasination gang!

The case you are talking about was a plot by the traditional Muhamedans who hated the message but couldn't debate it, so the easiest way for them was to scheme and plot against the messenger, in the end they had to kill him in 1990.

But how stupid is Satan!, does he think that by killing the messenger, he can stop the message?!

Anyway, here is Quran's law on how to deal with these kinds of rumours,

[24:11] A gang among you produced a big lie. Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.

[24:12] When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."

[24:13] Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.

[24:14] If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy in this world and in the Hereafter, you would have suffered a great retribution because of this incident.

[24:15] You fabricated it with your own tongues, and the rest of you repeated it with your mouths without proof. You thought it was simple, when it was, according to GOD, gross.

[24:16] When you heard it, you should have said, "We will not repeat this. Glory be to You. This is a gross falsehood."

[24:17] GOD admonishes you that you shall never do it again, if you are believers.


Remember that 4 witnesses on 4 different occasions, otherwise they are LIARS.

rushdoony
04-11-2005, 04:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa

nomad
04-11-2005, 05:22 PM
Draken wrote:
Ahmad, it was bound to happen sooner or later - someone was going to check up on what has been written about Rashad Khalifa and Traditional Islam's opinion on The Submitter cult. It just happened to be me.

I find it interesting though that the Submitters seem to create a lot of tension and split within the Muslim communities, as if there wasn't enough of that. It seems to me that the effect of the Submitters is the breaking up and splintering and fragmentation of the last religion to seriously challenge the Western Secular Humanist lifestyle we've had shoved down our necks.

I do recognize character assassination but the questions and doubts I had before I read these articles are still intact. Sorry Ahmad, but I'm simply not convinced. I still think you have good, sound ideas about a lot of things and I think you have your heart in the right place but I'm not joining the Submitters just yet.

To me God is much more than a prime number.

Truth, Beauty, Love

Draken are you familiar with the Hebrew language

at all ?

truebeliever
04-11-2005, 08:30 PM
Ooooooo...thats gotta hurt!

Thanks Drak old son! Coz Ahmed hurt my feelings when he said he would'nt respond to me i'm going to rub salt in....nah, nah, na, nah, na!

Of course, who knows? Maybe it is a Zionist plot, and maybe it's just a crock...a crock because it seeks to reduce life down to a stupid, idiotic, slavish and infantile relience on a stupid number to verify it's message.

You have no compassion Ahmed. You are a rationalist who needs mathematical proof. You dont care about human beings, only your stupid infantile attachment to your holy words.

There is no compassion in your words, only adherence to dogma.

The greatest insult I could give to you is FUNDAMENTALIST.

You put your words before human beings. Only those who adhere to words are worthy.

The more I come here. The more I learn. The more 'Christian' i become.

I respect Mahummed. I respect the Muslim people. There religion is there's...it works for them, it has many wise words.

Christs compassion and forgiveness!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What more can I say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahmad
04-11-2005, 11:51 PM
TB,

I want to draw your attention to a pattern you use on this forum, whenever someone doesn't play along, you call him a 'rational', 'hard hearted', 'non compassionate robot'...etc!

What is your proof for these insults?

You want me to respond to your posts? what about apologizing for the insults and showing a little respect first?
----------

As for the 'stupid' number, it is God's signature in the universe, on the planets and every living creature including you, just count the number of bones in your hand and maybe someday you will get what i mean!

Draken
04-12-2005, 12:14 AM
Draken are you familiar with the Hebrew language

at all ?

No.

truebeliever
04-12-2005, 12:53 AM
Gimme a break Ahmed!

It's you matey!

I call you hard of heart because you have written over and over that people get what they deserve!

Tell me you have not stated this openly, over and over in relation to the Muslim people and others?

If they worship idols they get what they deserve?

This is fundamentalist in attitude.

You say go along...with what? I got angry with you because you made polite banter with a man who alledges he is a member of a Luciferian worshipping cult. Well known for it's subversive activities and secrecy.

I beleive that you are sincere.

You say many things that are wise and that i agree with.

You have a foundation that you beleive makes the house.

There is so much more and that includes being a little less simplistic...

However, that is for you.

I apolagise for my immature little comments.

Best to you.

Ahmad
04-12-2005, 01:23 AM
Ok, maybe now we can start talking !

"If they worship idols they get what they deserve?"

It is not me who said that truebeliever, it is in the scriptures:

Proverbs 22:8 ' He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed. '

Quran [4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people, and GOD suffices as witness.

If you are talking about the continous misery, humiliation and defeat of the Muslim world, then yes i mean it, they are GETTING what they deserve for their hypocrisy, sectarianism, and most of all for worhshipping Muhammad, Ali, Hussein and the saints and scholars instead or besides God.
------------

"I got angry with you because you made polite banter with a man who alledges he is a member of a Luciferian worshipping cult."


Why would a polite conversation incite anger!? Yeoshua never said that he worships Lucifer, he seems devoted to the same god of all of us, and i tend to believe him, for there is no proof against his sincerity.

You should think carefully before you let anger control you truebeliever, did you know that Moses killed an innocent guy because of this stereotyping attitude!, once he found two men struggling, the one of his tribe called upon him for help, without thinking Moses took his stick and hit the other guy, later he recognized his error, now ... if we say that ALL the jews are wicked, ALL the muslims are terrorists, ALL the freemasons are luceferians, then we are following the footsteps of Hitler, Hirohito, and all the blind killers who kill indiscriminately.

Afterall Yeoshua condemned the satanist freemasons including Albert Pike.

Your attitude is very dangerous, i ask you to exercise self control, and not to stereotype.

As for the 'stupid number', how could you reject something without acquiring knowledge about it first?

truebeliever
04-12-2005, 01:55 AM
I'm not into numbers, i'm into words and deeds. Especially deeds.

But that is for you...you find meaning? A sincere good for you.

Your statements are that you sow and you reap...i could'nt agree more, but hav'nt you commited the same sin you accuse me of...of stereotyping? Of tarring everyone with the same brush? Are the ordinary Muslims of the world to suffer because you beleive they know no better and worship Hadith?

On this point I find deep meaning in the life and death of Christ...as they crucified him, he found great compassion..."forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

As for FMB? He belongs to a cult and he can talk of this and that all he likes. He did NOT renounce Pike! He completely agree's with him! Note his first response that I am an idiot because i did not get the principal of the divine opposites. A Gnostic, New Age principal, whereby God is simply the dark and Lucifer the light. Adonay the evil one and Lucifer the bringer of light...go back to his posts.

He dug a hole and then tried to dig out.

He puts an oath of secrecy above that of God and the community. That is STANDARD in Masonry, to lie to protect a brother! I expect more from YOU on this matter Ahmed!

Just as you say there is no 'wishy washy', everyone is right religion...there is NO 'wishy washy' oh well i'm sure he's a nice Mason...he belongs to a cult PERIOD. I dont care what personal beleif he proclaims...his statement that he is a high up (which I dont beleive) in Masonry speaks for itself.

You will have to take my word for it Ahmed, they are evil and will do great evil as they prance around speaking of their great deeds.

I know the darkness well, i know what scum dwell in it. You are being nieve...if you stand by principal, would you place an oath among men before your God? Before your community? I beleive not.

That is why i give you the time of day.

You beleive whole heartedly in the power of God, of Allah. I beleive we worship the same God though many here I beleive would like to doubt that.

For that I am happy to agree we disagree on some matters. Maybe many.

Anger is an ABSOLOUTE nesscessity! It has a time and place. If I beleieve i have been a silly dill on a matter i will apolagise...as for FMB? He can rot in hell with the rest of his bretheren.

There are no shades of grey here for me on that particular matter. A snake is a snake no matter how it wriggles.

Best to you.

Draken
04-12-2005, 02:05 AM
Curious anomaly...;-)

<a href="http://mostmerciful.com/deceit-one.htm">DECEIT # ONE
RASHAD KHALIFA DELETES
TWO VERSES (9: 128/129)
IN HIS SECOND PUBLICATION
AND YET THE TOTAL COUNT
FOR WORD "ALLAH"
REMAINS THE SAME IN BOTH...</a>

Ahmad
04-12-2005, 02:28 AM
TB,

"I'm not into numbers, i'm into words and deeds. Especially deeds."


Many people before you said the same! do you know what's the requital for rejecting a sign from God?
If you can't decide whetehr these numbers are man-made or devinely controllled, then you will not be able to make a decision regarding Quran, it is the final testament to you, ironically the muslims said the same like you, yet they have copies of Quran but prefer the man-made Hadith.


"tarring everyone with the same brush? Are the ordinary Muslims of the world to suffer because you beleive they know no better and worship Hadith?"


No i didn't, God is the Most Merciful, meaning that he defends the sincere wherever they are, the sincere in the muslim countries as well as in Iraq are protected by God and His angels, many of them were given a way out and they fled the polluted Islamic societies.


"On this point I find deep meaning in the life and death of Christ...as they crucified him, he found great compassion..."forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

Christ simply wouldn't have said that, it is a clear injection in the Gospel, for one Jesus' soul was raised before the tortrure started, secondly the believers are not to love the rejectors of God and His messengers.


As for Yeoshua, obviously you didn't understand what i meant, however i prefer not to speak about someone in his absence.

-------------------------------

Draken,

I expected that you would do a sincere attempt at studying the Message itself instead of collecting all the false accusations from the Internet, afterall all the prophets and messengers were accused and insulted along the history.

But anyway, concerning this 'anomaly' it proves that God is in control, the first count of the word "Allah=God" shouldn't have been a multiple, however the computer gave Rashad a multiple!, years later when he discovered the two false verses that exalt Muhammad(their idol) and after counting the word 'God' again in the whole book, he got the same multiple!. What is important is the final count whihc is a multiple of 19.

If you are looking for some gaps to discredit the message, you will sure find many, God leaves these gaps to lead on the transgressors. The simple facts are enough for me to prove that the book is without doubt word by word authored by God as amessage to all of us, among these simple facts are:
1- The number of chapters come to a multiple of 19.
2-The total number of verses.
3- The total number of words 'God', 'Quran'.
4-The sum of all the different numbers mentioned in Quran.

and many other simple facts, should we leave the clear proofs and focus on the errors!

-Appendix 1 by Rashad KhalifaOne of the Great Miracles (http://www.submission.org/math-ap1.html)


-Introduction to the miracle by me:
www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html

Draken
04-12-2005, 02:57 AM
afterall all the prophets and messengers were accused and insulted along the history.

Like you dismiss Sufism, then.

Sorry, Ahmad, but you lost me. I seriously gave you the benefit of the doubt and gave you many chances to convince me, and I DID read up on the message, but the best you could do was a mathematical equation with the "help" of a computer.

I'm not a computer, Ahmad. I'm a human being. I think truebeliever hit the nail on the head with stating that you are a rationalist who needs mathematical proof.

Rationalism and "common sense" lead AWAY from God, not TO God.
You can't convince me by appealing to rational thinking.

You sound like someone sticking his head in the sand to avoid hearing what he doesn't want to hear.

Ahmad
04-12-2005, 03:29 AM
Draken,

"Like you dismiss Sufism, then."

I said it before, some sufis may have been sincere teachers, however the practices of the sufis prove their idolatery, e.g: asking the dead saints for help instead of asking God alone, equating the creatures with the Creator in their teachings(the theory of unity of existence).


"Sorry, Ahmad, but you lost me. I seriously gave you the benefit of the doubt and gave you many chances to convince me, and I DID read up on the message, but the best you could do was a mathematical equation with the "help" of a computer."


Well, God is in no need for your belief, you are the one who needs God. If you believe or disbelieve it is for your own benefit or detriment, it is your call.

What i can do is to warn you of the consequence of disbelief in God's sign for all humanity, severe retribution.


"you are a rationalist who needs mathematical proof."


All the disbelievers along the history said the same! when Abraham came out of the fire unharmed, they must have said, this is a 'magician' he is a cold hearted 'rational' demon, kill it!!, same must have happened with Moses, Jesus and all the prophets who brought miracles to support their message.

I told you before that a miracle by itself means nothing, it is the message of 'one god alone' that matters, apparently the message fell on deaf ears.

[6:154] And we gave Moses the scripture, complete with the best commandments, and detailing everything, and a beacon and mercy, that they may believe in meeting their Lord.

[6:155] This too is a blessed scripture that we have revealed; you shall follow it and lead a righteous life, that you may attain mercy.

[6:156] Now you can no longer say, "The scripture was sent down to two groups before us, and we were unaware of their teachings."

Mathematics: The Ultimate Proof

[6:157] Nor can you say, "If only a scripture could come down to us, we would be better guided than they." A proven scripture has now come to you from your Lord, and a beacon, and a mercy. Now, who is more evil than one who rejects these proofs from GOD, and disregards them? We will commit those who disregard our proofs to the worst retribution for their heedlessness.

Requirements of the Test

[6:158] Are they waiting for the angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some physical manifestations of your Lord? The day this happens, no soul will benefit from believing if it did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, "Keep on waiting; we too are waiting."

nomad
04-12-2005, 05:00 AM
Draken wrote:
Draken are you familiar with the Hebrew language

at all ?

No.

Draken, are you seeking the truth ?

Draken
04-12-2005, 06:18 AM
when Abraham came out of the fire unharmed, they must have said, this is a 'magician' he is a cold hearted 'rational' demon, kill it!!

Ahmad, are you equating the above miracle with the 19 "miracle"?

Nomad, are you trying to outpost me or something?;-)

Ahmad
04-12-2005, 11:01 AM
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Mathematical Miracle of the Quran*

[34:43] When our proofs were recited to them, perfectly clear, they said, "This is simply a man who wants to divert you from the way your parents are worshiping." They also said, "These are fabricated lies." Those who disbelieved also said about the truth that came to them, "This is obviously magic."

[34:44] We did not give them any other books to study, nor did we send to them before you another warner.

[34:45] Those before them disbelieved, and even though they did not see one-tenth* of (the miracle) we have given to this generation, when they disbelieved My messengers, how severe was My retribution!

Footnote
*34:45 The great miracles given to Moses and Jesus were limited in time and place; they were witnessed by a few people who happened to exist in that place at that time. But the mathematical miracle of the Quran is perpetual (see 74:30-35 and Appendix 1) Rashad Khalifa.

nohope187
04-12-2005, 09:39 PM
I don't know, who is Dr. RashKhal Ph.D? Whatever, dude. :-P