View Full Version : ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

04-12-2005, 09:33 AM
Does anyone know or ever heard of AHEPA?
(Greek organization)

Someone told me that they are a Freemason-type organization.

Also, how about them Knights of Columbus????
Are they a mirror image of Freemasonry???

Can I trust the ELKS? I like their all-you-can eat spaghetti dinners, though!!

Someone once told me they all have the same thread running through them??

04-12-2005, 10:09 AM
AHEPA, the worlds largest Greek-American organisation.

The American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association


The Knights of Columbus - NOT affiliated to Templary or Freemasonry in any way


Please note in the crest, a hatchet bound by sticks..........

Which for the more attentive in the class is a symbol of?

04-12-2005, 02:32 PM
I'm a Knight of Columbus. It was Catholicism's attempt to do a couple of things. One, it was designed for women who became widows to be taken care of - as well as their children. In the upper east of the U.S., Catholic men - mostly Irish, made up a significant portion of the general workforce. This typically meant that they didn't have a lot of reserve funds on hand in the event of their death and the widow wasn't able to afford a traditional funeral or take care of herself and her children. It was founded in the late 1800's by Father Michael J. McGivney in Connecticut. By joining, a member knew that his family would receive some assistance in the event of his death - not much, but some. This was done by giving them a life insurance policy. To this day, a member can receive the standard policy, or they can purchase other policies through their Knights of Columbus financial representative. This gentleman will handle all of the financial matters for the widow for the funeral. In the event that the widow doesn't want to plan out the funeral, he would also help to oversee the arrangements. They would be a typical KofC service. A member is not required to take out a policy, and many don't.
Another reason was to create a sense of Catholic male comradery. Because men put so many long hours into their day, there wasn't a lot left for a social life. This comradery helped them establish some networking, too. It's no secret that Irish Catholics were hard pressed to find safe,decent jobs paying a livable wage when they first came over. Discrimination ran rampant by the WASP dominated northeast. That's why so many became cops - to go along with the stereotype. The networking along with the degree system is similar to masonry, but that's where the similarities end.
There are four degrees to the KCs - each one espousing a particular ideal; Unity, Charity, Fraternity, and Patriotism. I sometimes have a hard time with the fourth degree in that most of these guys are WWII old timers and they don't take kindly to young punks talking trash about the government. That's just because of the era in which they grew up.
There is an initiation, and an oath taken. But, that oath is to Jesus the Christ, not to each other. That, first and foremost, is the biggest difference between the two. The other difference is that the ideals are based on everything that is common Catholic knowledge. The only thing that's secret is how the initiation is performed and the meetings of the 3rd and 4th degree. I belong to one of the oldest councils in existence. One would have to go to the upper east of the U.S. to find one that's older. It is by far the oldest council in our state. I can tell you that our meetings are made up of planning funerals, charity drives, different designated acts of charity for needy individuals - usually someone who is very ill, has just lost a loved one, etc.
The major charity drive is the "Tootsie Roll Drive" for the mentally handicapped. This money goes to the planning and expenses of the Special Olympics and other institutions for the sole purpose of helping them and their families out. We get audited every year by a different independent firm each time and everything is accounted for - unlike the Shriners.
So that's pretty much it. About the only major impact we've had besides charity work is that the Pledge of Allegiance used to say "One nation, indivisible, with libery and justice for all." That changed back in the 50's when a strong KC lobby pushed for the words "under God" to be added.

04-12-2005, 03:02 PM
I meant "liberty." Sorry for the misspell.
One other thing that is kind of interesting. In the late 1800's and the early 1900's, my great grandfather was the Chief of Detectives of the Toronto Police Force (fits the Irish Catholic cop stereotype). He was offered the position of Chief of Police. There was one stipulation, though. In order for him to get the job, he was told he had to become a freemason. Since being initiated into freemasonry and taking a death oath to someone instead of God was looked down upon by the Catholic Church (and most Christian denominations are headed this way, too), he said "no" to the initiation. The job offer was rescinded. It is just an example of some of the things that prompted blue collar Catholic men to want to join the KCs.
I did it because I wanted to honor my father, grandfather, and great grandfather. Plus I like doing the charity stuff. It's fun.
FYI - contrary to what many people believe, it is still not condoned by the Catholic Church to be associated with freemasonry. What was released in 1983 was misinterpreted and corrected in 1998(I think it was that year - but I'd have to double check).

04-12-2005, 03:44 PM
Hello MT!

I've taken care of several elderly that were freemason, (and the womenfolk OES.)

However, a certain patient comes to mind.
He told me he was not a freemason, but a financial supporter. (???????????)
What is that about? He never went into it with me, and I didn't continue to ask. How we had stumbled upon the whole subject of freemasonry was some nik-naks he had in the china cabinet with the logo.
etc, etc, etc..................

04-12-2005, 07:46 PM
MT, does your organisation have a secret handshake or 'secret' attributes of any kind?

04-13-2005, 04:22 AM
An axe bound by sticks a symbol known as a "Fasces".

Bear any resembelance to another word?

I'll give you a clue - Mussolini had it on his flag.

Zeljko, I think, has mentioned the fasces in Ecuador's arms - this is not surprising as the Latin American states, like the US itself, were very influenced by neo-classicalism for their national iconographies.
Fasces can also be found lurking behind the shield of the arms of Cuba, believe it or not, and as the national arms appear on the Presidential standard, Fidel Castro himself bears fasces!

I have been lead to believe that the term "Fascism" comes only indirectly from the Roman usage (though no doubt Mussolini was not adverse to asserting the link) and that it stems from the "fasci di combattimento" "combat squads" formed immedately after WW1 by disenchanted veterans which Mussolini organised into a national movement which swept him to power. I don't know if this is strictly correct though.

A fasces refers to a bundle of rods wrapped together with an axe. It was used during the Roman Empire.
In terms of modern political usage, I know of the following few examples (aside from the obvious case of Italy) :
During the time of Marshal Philippe Petain's rule, the symbol of his regime was a double-edged fasces. I am not sure what the Party symbol of Jacques Doriot's Parti Populaire Francais (PPF) was, but I believe that the PPF might have used this symbol as well. I am not sure if Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists (BUF) used the fasces in its iconography. (I believe the BUF main symbol was a lightning flash).
I am unsure if the Italian flag and iconography was changed at all during the time of the Italian Social Republic (Salo Republic).

Benevolent Catholic Organisation......Even the very words are a contradiction in terms.

For those who don't believe, do a search on either "Fasces" or "Axe bound by sticks" in Google.

And you are correct MasonTemplar, Catholics still persecute Freemasons and KT's. The set of DOUBLECROSSING murdering, sanctimonious bastards.

While you're at it, do a search on the origins of the words "To DOUBLECROSS"

04-13-2005, 07:16 AM
Your anomosity towards Catholics just proves my point about how deeply seeded this issue is. I'm not defending what the church did back in the early 1300's or the late 1700's to your ilk.
I will say, though, that the KC's were started by a very common man who was not what you would consider being in on the inside. In fact, had he known about Columbus what we know now, the name of the organization would have been different. I'm not going to pretend that the KC's are more than they are. If you want a truly powerful Catholic fraternity - go after the Military Order of the Knights of Malta. They have their own website. Just look how much rigamorole one has to go through to become one. If you're not already on the inside, there's no chance.
As for a secret handshake or anything secret would do in public to identify ourselves, there is none. I know the guys we've elected as part of our State Supreme Council. These guys are very modest. Some are retired farmers.
I would be a little careful about throwing so much meaning behind our symbolism because that would open the door on your side as well. Gotta go, but this is starting to be a fun discussion.

04-13-2005, 07:38 AM
Nothing to do with identifying yourself in public...any secret oath etc...i think you know what i mean.

04-13-2005, 08:45 AM
Fascism has been greatly misunderstood, both unwittingly and on purpose. Before anyone jumps at my throat I have to say I have only started looking into the reasons and ideologies of the so-called "Mediterranean Tradition" as opposed to the "Christian/European" one.

This seems a very harsh text at first read, I admit, and I don't necessarily understand everything that's insinuated or agree with everything said. I do agree though, with the overall attitude when it comes to leaders having to be of a totally different ilk and their authority being dependent on their spiritual maturity.

Also, remember that this text was written in 1928, when Fascism in Italy was an alternative to Communism and people sympathized with Fascism because it was actually fighting International Communism.

There is no doubt Evola was very critical of Christianity. He saw it as a manifestation of the decadence of spirituality spanning over aeons of time; from The Golden Age right down to the present Iron Age (Kali Yuga). Hence, his perspective is much wider than most peoples'.


<a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/antieu.html">FASCISM AS ANTI-EUPOPE</a>
by Julius Evola (Translation from Imperialismo Pagano, Atanor, Todi-Roma 1928)

Can fascism be the source of an anti-European restoration?

Is fascism powerful enough today to take on such a task?

Fascism arose from below, from confused needs and brutal forces unleashed by the European war. Fascism has thrived on compromises, on rhetoric, on the petty ambitions of petty people. The state organization that it has created is often uncertain, awkward, inexpert, violent, cramped, riddled by ambiguities.

Nevertheless, if we look around us today and note the demise of the only two states - Russia and Germany - that had preserved remnants of hierarchhical values (however distorted and materialized) we must draw the conclusion that fascism is the West's best hope.

For better or worse, fascism has developed a body. But this body is still lacking a soul. It is still lacking the superior power (atto) needed to justify it, complete it, make it rise to its feet as a principle opposed to all of Europe. The soul in question can achieve these ends only if fascism manages to resurrect a distinctive system of meta-economics and metapolitical values by means of a radical, profound, absolute upheaval (rivolgimento), a new leap ahead and away from the politics of "normalisation" and bourgeois compromise (imborghesimento) that is beginning to pervade contemporary fascism.

But let's not misunderstand one another.

The breeding ground of fascism were youthful, resolute forces, ready for anything, immune to the evils of "culture". To this day they represent the vital nucleus of fascism, while those who worry about developing a "philosophy of fascism" and a "fascist culture" are themselves symptoms of degeneration, or, at the very least, of a turn away from the path leading to something really new; a true revolution (not one regarding which one can conclude "plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose).

No. Fascism must remain antiphilosophical. Decisevely and crudely so. Tapping into its purest core of force, it must sweep away the filthy film of rhetoric, sentimentalism, moralism, and hypocritical piety with which the West has clouded and humanized everything. There is an irrefutable need for someone to break into the temple - perhaps even a barbarian - to drive out the corrupters of "civilized" Europe, the monopolistic preachers of the "spirit", good and evil, and the divine who actually know only matter and what human words, fear, and superstition have layered over matter.

To all this I reply "That's enough!". My negations is meant to allow a few men to rediscover the long paths, the long danger, the long gaze, and the long silence, to unleash the wind of the open sea - the wind of the MEDITERRANEAN TRADITION - so that it may revive the enslaved men of the West.

Antiphilosophy, antisentiment, antireligion: these are the premises. No more aestheticisms and idealisms: not a single one! No more thirsting of the soul for a hallucinated God to pray to and adore. No more acceptance of the common ties and mutual interdependencies that bind beggars together on a foundation of lack.

To soar beyond and above with pure faces. Forces that will have to meet a challenge that transcends politics and social concerns, that recoils at the clamorous gesture and superficial resonance, a challenge so great that the material forces vibrating out in the world of people and things can no longer have any effect.

In silence, under conditions of strict discipline, inflexible self-control, seriousness, and simplicity, with the brisk and tenacious effort of individuals, we in Italy must create an elite in whom Wisdom comes to life again. By "wisdom" I mean the power (virtus) that does not allow itself to speak, that rises up out of a hermetic and Pythagorean silence, that comes into being by subduing the senses and the soul, and that manifests itself not by means of arguments and books but through powerful actions.

We must reawaken to a renewed, spiritualized, bitter feeling (sensazione) for the world, not as a philosophical concept but as something that vibrates in the rhythm of our very blood: a feeling for the world as power, as the agile and free rhythmic dance of Shiva, as a sacrificial act (Veda). This feeling will breed strong, hard, active, solar, Mediterranean beings; beings made up of force and eventually only of force; beings infused with a sense of freedom and nobility whose cosmic perspective (respiro cosmico) has been much stammered about but little understood by Europe's "dead". Science today is profane, democratic, and materialistic. Always relative and qualified in its truths, a slave to phenomena and to incomprehensible laws, it remains mute with regard to the profound reality of man. To debunk it we must reawaken in the new elite a sacred science, a science that is inferior and secret and gives rise to initiations, a science of self-fulfillment and self- dignification that taps the occult forces that govern our being and subdues them so as to permit men to be actually (not mythically) reborn as beings superior to the laws of the body and of space and time.

So a race of leaders it will be. Invisible leaders who do not rattle on or parade about but who act irresistibly and are capable of anything. A center will thus exist in decentered Europe.

The problem of hierarchy can only be addressed by creating leaders, a strictly individual and internal problem, resistant to external solutions. Hierarchy can come into being only when there are leaders and not vice versa.

The empire cannot be built on economic, military, industrial, and even "ideal" foundations. The imperium, according to the Iranian and Roman conception, is transcendent. It can only be attained by those who have the power to transcend the petty lives of petty men and their petty appetites, patriostisms, "values", "nonvalues", and gods.

The ancients understood this when they deified their emperors, joining together royal dignity and spiritual dignity. Have the young barbarians who have dared to resurrect the eagle and the fasces learned this lesson? Have they understood that there is no alternative, that this is the only way to transform their "revolution" into the first light that pierces the thick fog of European decadence? Rather than amounting to little more than the small contigency of a small nation, they could plant the seed for a resurgence of Rome throughout the world, the seed for a true restoration.

04-13-2005, 09:29 AM
Here's a quote from <a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/medit.html">MEDITERRANEAN TRADITION AGAINST CHRISTIAN TRADITION</a>
Julius Evola (Translation from Imperialismo pagano, Atanor, Todi-Roma 1928)

I have to say I agree that one of the biggest crimes ever committed in the name of Christ was the total annihilation and destruction of pre-Christian wisdom of the "primitive, savage, barbarian" peoples of pagan Europe.

"Anti-Europe means Anti-Christianity. And anti-Christianity consists in the Mediterranean classical, and pagan tradition that is our own. This must be perfectly clear.

Without a return to such a tradition, no liberation will be possible, no true restoration, no transfer of spirit, power, and empire into the realm of values. But let not our "anti" give rise to misunderstandings. They, not we, are forces of negation. They are the ones who sapped Rome, contaminated Wisdom, and destroyed aristocracy in the name of a reign of sentimentalism and humanitarianism ruled by "enemies of the world". And they did so in order to exalt a superstition according to which God is an executed man and enslaver of other men whom he condemns to damnation unless "grace" intervenes on their behalf. No more foolish or absurd fable has ever been devised than that which treats paganism as a synonym for materiliaty and corruption, while Christianity is, instead, associated with purity and spirituality. Yet this superstition still manages to inform so much contemporary thinking!"

04-13-2005, 09:35 AM
But was that Christs fault? Or the zealots who followed?

I think the Pagan types had to be lifted out of their own filth.

Christianity is the move into complex consciousness.

Can Mother Earth be integrated into this consciousness without a move backwards?

Does Christianity as we speak embody these principals anyway? Is it more the failings of a fairly pathetic/average preistly caste who unfortunately hav'nt lived an awful lot and whose interpretation of things is sadly lacking?

Answer immediately lest you be drawn and quatered in the Catholic tradition...for your own good of course.

04-13-2005, 10:02 AM
Christianity is the move into complex consciousness.

I can't say I agree totally with the above quote.

Having read Evola's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089281506X/poecentral-20/002-4076047-0911257">"Revolt Against The Modern World"</a> and being of the opinion the Vedic doctrine of the Four Ages is correct, I have to say I believe we're at the end of time as we know it, and all of the earth's history until the present time is a huge degeneration and a manifestation of universal decadence, which started with the corruption of The Golden Age.

Also, Evola presents some very convincing - and unorthodox - thoughts on why Christianity in his view is a degeneration.

While I can agree with him on his points, (which I can't at the moment post here for lack of time) he doesn't dismiss the sincerity or genuineness of Christians. What he tries to say is that the spirituality of the Christian doctrine is in fact inferior to, for example, the Roman one, or the ones even before the Roman one. He does not say these prior manifestations of a different spirituality were perfect in any way - on the contrary. He says about the Atlantean civilization that it too degenerated due to the greed, hostility and violence of the degenerated spirituality of the warrior and priestly castes. But it all follows a huge motion of a downward spiral of existence, which is unstoppable: it's the destiny of creation.
Instead of seeing our existence as going from Chaos to Order, Evola sees it the complete opposite way: Order to Chaos.

I'll try to look up some texts that I can either find on the net or I'll just sit down with one of my books and type it in.

If you haven't already read my <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=590&forum=3&PHPSESSID=d5327f40f953d4a52df0b3800afa7c60">INTEGRAL TRADITION</a> thread and my <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=677&forum=3&PHPSESSID=d5327f40f953d4a52df0b3800afa7c60">SOLIPSISM - KALI YUGA - RIGHT-WING ATTITUDE</a> I recommend you to start there.

Also, check out this site compiling online material by and about <a href="http://www.codeschaos.0catch.com/juliusevola.html">Julius Evola</a>.

04-13-2005, 03:28 PM
"MT, does your organisation have a secret handshake or 'secret' attributes of any kind?"

I think I mentioned it before, but if not - The only oath we took was to adhere to the teachings of Jesus the Christ. We did not take an oath to ourselves or any other earthly entity. Therefore, we wouldn't perjur ourselves for another KC, seek retribution for an act against a KC, etc.
Catholics aren't supposed to take any oath to another individual because that places the possibility of said individual to come first before God in our decisions. So, if you wanted to know what teachings or ideals we're supposed to exemplify, just check out what it's like to be a Catholic. I'm not saying you need to convert or anything - far from it. I'm just saying that there's nothing hidden. The only thing you wouldn't see is the actual initiation ceremony. I can tell you that there isn't anything in the ceremony that you wouldn't know. But, there's a certain theatrical way it's presented that is meant to be a surprise for the initiate.
As for the Fasces, it's used in the terms as our fight against sin - generally speaking our own sins. It's not meant to mean that we want to institute a fascist hegemon over the world. That would be giving us too much credit. In every council, we pray the rosary before each meeting and then we organize what we have to do for the upcoming "coffee and donut" Sunday we're in charge of or figuring out what churches we need to attend when doing our Mentally Handicapped Tootsie Roll Drive or who's going to be able to help out at our annual retired nuns Christmas party or who's going to be able to serve soup at the local Catholic Charities Thanksgiving foodline. We're supposed to be humble servants of charity - that's pretty much it. I am a 4th degree KC. Out of the 12,000 councils that exist, we're in the first 300 formed and our council has existed for 110 years. For the higher councils that oversee the organization as a whole, there aren't a whole lot of people from the aristocracy. I think you would be hard pressed to find any. There are some people who have money, but for the most part we're a bunch of poor bastards even in our national leadership positions.
I have come across a couple of guys who were both a mason and a KC, but in order to do that he has to lie to his council about being a member to a lodge (no I didn't rat them out - neither one of them were elite by any means, nor did they hold key officer positions where their affiliation would affect their council decisions - nice guys really).
There are other organizations, like the masonic network, that have much more influence than the KCs. The KCs hit their high point shortly after WWII because many who fought the war turned to religion as a means of coping with their experiences. That's why they had some influence in the changing of the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's, and that is why the 4th degree (which was a new addition) is the Patriotic degree. The membership numbers have dwindled since the old guys are dying off and the number of young guys can't make up for the difference.
Back to the whole symbolism thing, it's a lot easier to find masonic imagery in our everyday lives than it is for anything else. Do all of the uses of these symbols mean the same thing they did back at their incepetion? Do the people who decide to use the symbols always know what the original meaning was - not usually. You'd have to know the background of the organization and its past and current members, employees, officials, etc. before you could make any guesses.

04-13-2005, 04:17 PM
Fasci were the bunch of sticks around an axe that were carried by the lictors before a Roman magistrate with some kind of mandate. It meant he carried the power of Rome to do something.
Mussolini used the fasci as a symbol because he was into reviving the Roman Empire glory to Italy...(grin)

04-13-2005, 08:20 PM
Yeh...reviving the Roman Empire! LOL LOL LOL LOL...by the method of retreat!

I still find it hard to beleive the wogs once ruled the Earth? Thats like saying the Micks once ruled the Earth...from a pub...a long line of communication!

BTW...these are terms of endearment in Oz.

Sorry Marco...of course I admire the Italian intelligence. Fighting stupid wars when you could be home sipping wine and checking out the Bella's. Australians love to give it to the wogs for there retreat in battle...but who's smarter? Mercs for the Brits, or men who wanted to go home to their families?

Not that it's entirely relevent but I read the key to the Roman order of battle is that they taught, over and over, their troops to 'thrust' with their swords rather than slash away in a frenzy.

Once pierced, the enemy would drop immediately from shock. You can be slashed an awful lot and still keep going.

Must remember that.

04-14-2005, 03:07 AM
Do all of the uses of these symbols mean the same thing they did back at their incepetion? Do the people who decide to use the symbols always know what the original meaning was - not usually.

I've made this point earlier. Very important. One of the problems today when speaking about these issues is that the meanings of symbols and words get corrupted, either on purpose or unintentionally. So it's difficult to talk about these things with someone who takes it for granted that the meaning of for instance, the swastika, is evil due to Hitler's use of it. What about all the ancient civilization all over the world who have used the same symbol? Have they all been Nazis? I don't think so. The swastika in all these ancient civilizations was used as a symbol for the sun. Just an example.

How about this interpretation of the cross:

Also the cross has been found being used long before the advent of Christianity. There are people who say that the "original" meaning of the so-called <a href="http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefssolar.htm">"solar cross"</a> http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/symbols/solar.jpg
is the division of the cell; first there is the monad, http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/symbols/ssun.jpg
a symbol for the Sun or the One, that is God. This is then split in two halves which symbolizes God's division of Heaven from Earth, which then is also divided so we get the "solar cross", which of course have multiple meanings: the elements, the seasons, the temperaments, etc.

04-14-2005, 04:00 AM
MasonTemplar wrote:
If you want a truly powerful Catholic fraternity - go after the Military Order of the Knights of Malta. They have their own website. Just look how much rigamorole one has to go through to become one. If you're not already on the inside, there's no chance.

Sorry MT, The Order of the Knights of Malta is the 9th degree in the York Rite of Freemasonry.

04-14-2005, 02:48 PM
I beg to differ, Yeoshua: http://www.orderofmalta.org/index.asp?idlingua=5

It may be a 9th degree in the York Rite, but only by name. This is the true order: aka the Hospitallers.

I'm truly surprised you didn't know this. These guys, along with the masons, tend to get implicated in almost everything.

As far as it being the 9th degree in the York Rite, does that mean that the Templars are still in existence through that same Rite, or is it some revamped hybrid ceremonial thing in honor of the old order?
One thing's for certain, the 9th degree ain't the real deal.

04-14-2005, 04:34 PM
Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? Only if you believe they are whoever the hell they are. In that case, they are them. But if not, then no. :-P

04-14-2005, 07:41 PM
Well MT, i guess your outed. Many thanxs.

Maybe I should join...you people are so honest!

04-15-2005, 07:37 AM
Thanks...I think...
One thing I forgot to mention. Most KC Councils rent the spaces for their meetings. This wasn't always the case. Many councils had money donated by the members for down payments to get their own building. Over the years, as membership declined, those councils also lost those gifts. Ours is one such council. We used to own our own hall, which stood side by side with a masonic lodge. We used to do some joint activities - like a potluck supper - every once in a great while. They've moved on to a gigantic masonic center that has a bunch of different lodges participating in it. It's very nice and modern.
We rent a small room that's attached to a school next to its sponsoring church. We were able to sock some of the money away from the sale of our hall. We use that small nestegg to supplement our growing financial shortfalls. We had a gentleman in the past that did a poor investment choice, and it nearly wiped us completely out.
I'm the youngest in our council at 30 years old - the next youngest is in his 40's and most are in their mid 50's and much higher. Like I said - lots of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets.
I'd like to tell some of our nefarious deeds, but I haven't been able to find any. :-P But, I'm always looking. :-x :-) ;-)

04-18-2005, 02:48 AM
Good effort MT, some very persuasive arguments there, wrong, but persuasive.

Freemasonry has, since its formal inception with the uniting of four London based lodges in 1717, sought an answer for its roots in history. The speculations have been as varied as the Freemasons who have offered them. Among the speculations have been the Masons of Ancient Egypt, The Roman Building Guilds, Solomon's workmen and a host of others.

In the early 1700's a new theory was presented for Masonic history and that was, that the Freemasons began in the medieval deserts of the Levant with the Crusaders and Knights Templar. The responsibility for this theory lies with two different men, Andrew Michael Ramsay and the German Baron Karl Von Hundt.

Regardless of ones acceptance or rejection, it cannot be argued that Masonry does carry within its side degrees a form of Masonic Templarism. While the Scottish Rite contains a degree revolving around the Templars, as I have discussed, I will deal with York Rite Templarism. Within Freemasonry's York Rite are found four bodies:

The Craft or Speculative Lodge:
Entered Apprentice
Master Mason

Capitular Masonry - Chapter:
Mark Master Mason
Virtual Past Master (USA)
Most Excellent Master
Royal Arch

Cryptic Rite Masonry:
Royal Master
Select Master
Super Excellent Master

Chivalric Masonry:
Illustrious Order Of The Red Cross
Order Of Malta
Order OF The Temple - Knights Templar

Hope this helps and corrects the inaacurate...........

04-18-2005, 09:29 AM
I haven't really argued anything. The only thing I disagreed with you on in this thread is the Sovereign Order of the Knights of Malta. Where as what you're talking about is merely a degree, not the actual organziation - which consists of 11,000 members. Ask any historian or fraternal researcher and they will tell you the same thing. Your degrees might be offshoots on the original premise, but that's all you can claim.
As for the history of freemasonry you've posted, I don't disagree with you. There have been many different influences to the "craft."
My personal opinion is that the masons became as prominent as they are when the "noble" classes assimilated into the guilds lodges because of its secrecy, thus the birth of speculative freemasonry. Many of the Templars were of nobility. Especially the Scottish linneages like the Family Bruce. But, like I said, that's just my opinion. And, really, that's all we can have since not even masonic researchers can say for sure.