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JustTheTruth920
06-08-2011, 08:31 PM
I am amazed that you paint Protestant churches as you do. All giving in my church is voluntary. I understand that to be a Mason you have to pay your dues. So what is that but an organization to suck money out of unsuspecting and uninformed people. The pride of life is the reason it is so seductive.
Anyone at anytime can freely come into a church and know all that is said. There is no other requirement than that you open the door and walk in. Their is no requirement that you even believe. There is certainly no requirement that you put anything in the offering plate. And there is no restriction based on gender, or physical fitness. There is a world of difference between authentic Christianity and what you are saying.

KSigMason
06-08-2011, 09:25 PM
Well, I wish I would have read this earlier, but alas I'm going to bed now. I'll be back on later.

Ironically I just finished a book called, "Workman Unashamed" and he refutes the many claims against Freemasonry and the intolerants claim that it is incompatible with Christianity (which it is not).

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 02:07 PM
Because there have been brave men and women from the Eastern Star, Rainbow type groups who have come out of it and told the truth about it. It isn't really a secret because the secrets have been revealed. It is obviously a very devil inspired organization to deceive and seduce men by the pride of exclusiveness, and the silly exalted degrees and titles. As the Bible has said those things which were hidden will be shouted from the housetops. Lucifer is the father of lies so what surprise is it that members who are deceived will do the works of the orchestrator. Lies are part and parcel of the Freemasonry labyrinth. Pride and fear hold men captive. It is evil to the core. Good men may be deceived, but eventually people who want truth will come out of it.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 02:21 PM
Many Christians and mostly Jews were also killed in concentration camps.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 02:26 PM
If you call doing charity for kids and making good men into better men evil, then something is totally wrong here.

I hope you don't think that giving to charity is exclusive to Masons? And the "good men" I have seen turn out to be self-centered arrogant and prideful about being a Mason. Don't see how "pride" which is one of Satan's calling cards, is making good men into better men. It is only a slogan with no real substance to it.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 02:54 PM
What possible thing excellent to the Bible does any Christian need to read to find out what living a life for Christ is? As I understand it, the name of Jesus Christ is not allowed in the Lodge meetings. As there is no other Name higher this is a big red flag as to the slow indoctrination to meld all gods into one. Allah is not the same God as the Lord God Almighty. All other religions worship a form of Satan. Authentic Christianity worships the One True God, and is the only "religion" with a Savior and a promise that that Savior is living and wants to live in believers by faith. That our salvation is not attained but received by Grace through faith. There is no need for a secret organization to tell born again Christians where to find the light. The Bible says as believers we have moved from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light. So for a Christian to say I am in darkness is a lie. A lie that must be spoken to be initiated into the Masons. Christ did nothing in the dark, but out in the open. He healed the sick, raised the status of women, and spent most of his time with the poor and needy. His main enemies were people who felt they were earning heaven by their works. In fact it was this group that instigated his murder. However, God used the evil of their hearts to make a way for Salvation to ALL who would come to Him in faith in His Son Jesus Christ. To refuse to name the Name of Jesus Christ in any organization says a lot about the organization. No mature Christian would stay in such an organization. One that makes mere men's opinions more important than the opinion and will of Almighty God. There is no where in scripture that God is called by such a name. This man made name is not the name of God Almighty. The Bible says if you deny Jesus before men, then He will deny you before the Father. This is something that should bring conviction and reverential fear in the hearts of Christian men. So much so that they would disconnect themselves from such and organization.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 02:57 PM
Yes, exactly.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 03:22 PM
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

KSigMason
06-09-2011, 09:07 PM
The Bible also says that secrets are not bad either. I can cherry pick the Bible as well.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 09:46 PM
I wouldn't call myself an intolerant. I am speaking strictly to other Christians, an authentic Christian. Meaning a person who has believed by faith that Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, was crucified in our place and rose on the third day from the dead, then ascended to heaven after 40 days. Who then sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in the hearts and be in union with the spirits of those who have accepted His sacrifice for them and asked Christ to come into their lives, forgive their sins and regenerate them, impute righteousness by grace as a free and unearned gift. Christian (in name only) doesn't count.
Those people who are genuine believers have no business in an organization who will not allow the name of Jesus mentioned in the lodge meetings, who teach that any man by following lodge teachings can attain heaven, and that men can save themselves through good works and charity. It is changing men who have been made new in Christ into men who confess that they are in darkness even though the Bible declares that a true Christian has moved from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light. The Light, the true light is already in them. The symbolism in being hoodwinked is appropriate, because men are blindly making oaths without really thinking of what they are saying. To please and be part of an organization and become slaves of fear and intimidation there after. Christians were saved to be free, not to be put back into bondage. Satan knows that Christ Jesus is the Savior so His name will naturally be subtly and for seeming good reasons never be allowed in lodge meetings. There is no more fearful name to Satan than the name of Christ Jesus who at the cross defeated Him, and in resurrection completed the plan. When Jesus said "It is finished" The forces of evil shook. The devil has perpetrated the same lie as he put forth in the garden. He said, "If you have this knowledge you can be like God." He is still using the same old tricks. You can save yourself through knowledge.

Freemasonry is an elaborate,evil seduction and deception. True Christians should run, not walk, from such an organization cutting all ties and repent of any oaths. Never to look back again. Jesus said if we deny Him before men, He would deny us before the Father. He also said that there would be many who would say at the end, Lord, Lord and He will say "I never knew you". That is a sobering and serious thing to consider. All things leading to Godliness are already in the Holy Bible. Masonic interpretations are un-needed and in opposition to true Christian growth. There is scripture in the book of Acts chapter 4 that speaks of the Stone that the builders rejected becoming the chief cornerstone. That Stone spoken of in the book of Acts is Jesus Christ. It is amazing to me that even then God provided scripture to speak to an organization based on stone masons. There is nothing new under the sun. Jesus is the Rock (or Stone) upon which a Christian's salvation is secure. He is the only way to God the Father. This GAOTU is a god all right but not Almighty God, Maker of heaven and earth. There is no name in scripture listed for the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, where He is referred to as GAOTU. It is a man-made name for a false deity. Again, a Christian who puts God's Word above any other Word, will not be able to continue as a Mason when reading what the Holy Bible actually teaches. The taking of oaths is forbidden as well, especially ones on pain of death. It may not seem serious to an unregenerate man, but to a true believer, it will strike Holy fear of a Holy God, who does not change, who the Bible says is the same yesterday, today and forever. God is not a man that He should lie.

So either you should consider if your idea of what a true Christian is, is actually compatible with scripture, or keep believing the lies. It is a very serious matter of eternal consequences.

JustTheTruth920
06-09-2011, 10:26 PM
Actually you need to say exactly where that is in the Bible. There are secrets and there are secrets. The ones Masons say they have are not secrets, they are simply the same old lies.
The secretiveness of the organization is a mark of a cult. However, there are enough men and women who have come out of it and shed light on much of what goes on that people can evaluate enough of it to know it is not of God. You don't have to know every part of the evil to see most of it. The Bible also speaks to that saying that the things that are hidden will be shouted from the rooftops. I can provide scripture references for everything I have written. And they will be in context. It is obvious you do not know your own Bible. If you studied the Word of God, the Holy Bible, a fraction of the time you spend studying these silly Masonic teachings you will see for yourself the truth of what I say. It is plain for anyone who is willing to see and follow the truth in the Word of God.
Cherry picking is exactly what Masons do with the Bible twisting it, adding to it and making it into a tool of deception. There will come a day when all of that will be judged, but there is a way out of that judgement and that is repentance and leaving lies behind. God is merciful to sinful men and women who come to Him in repentance. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He is love but He is also Holy. Without Christ we have no hope of seeing a Holy God. But in Christ we are made new, and given eternal life. God is so good. But He is also just.

KSigMason
06-09-2011, 10:30 PM
Who are these brave men and women from the OES? I mean, the men are by requirement Master Masons. The women are required to be related to a Master Mason, but are not entitled to anything in any other appendant order or anything from the Blue Lodge.

"Rainbow type groups"? Do you really know anything about the structure of the Masons? I mean, there is a group called Rainbow Girls, but they would know nothing of the mainstream bodies of Freemasonry. What do you consider to be the higher echelons of Freemasonry?

How is Freemasonry inspired by the devil? As for Bible references, the Good Book says that the wise man will keep a secret while the fool lets his mouth run.

Pride can be a good thing and a bad thing. Pride can make someone excel and do great things, but at other times it can inspire corrupt, horrible thoughts and actions. And I'm sure when you're talking about pride, you're talking about the Seven Deadly Sins, which actually are not found in the Bible. I'm skipping over a huge part of its history, but basically the 7 Deadly Sins didn't take hold until the 6th Century when enacted by Pope Gregory I.

I don't think he ever said that charity is exclusive to Freemasonry. No one has ever said that. Our charities do a lot of good work though as do most charities (Masonic or not).

I'm not going to say all Masons have, are, or will be good. Masons are still human and humans are flawed. Freemasonry has a penal system for punishing those who disgrace the Fraternity through their actions.

In the Lodge we use a generic term that to each Brother represents their individual creator as not all of our members are Christian. We don't use Christ's name specifically, but that is because we allow men of all faiths and in the Blue Lodge we don't elevate (nor do we say that everyone's God is the same or equal) any one religion over the other. Politics is also not allowed to be discussed within the Lodge as we want to keep harmony within the Lodge.

In the York Rite, we do pray specifically to Christ as the York Rite is for the most part a Christian-oriented branch of Freemasonry.

As for the "authentic Christianity" comments, but who are you to say what is in a man's heart and define their relationship with God. What authority do you hold for such a thing? No human has this authority to define my relationship with God.

Freemasonry is not a religion so it does exist for the salvation of your soul. It leaves that up to your individual faith.

The only darkness you hold is in regards to Freemasonry. Freemasonry never says you are in religious darkness.

Meaning a person who has believed by faith that Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, was crucified in our place and rose on the third day for the dead, then ascended to heaven after 40 days. Who then sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in the hearts and be in union with the spirits of those who have asked Christ to come into their lives, forgive their sins and regenerate them, imput righteousness by grace as a free and unearned gift.
I have never denied Christ or denied any of the miracles he did and has done.

God knows what is in our hearts and it is by His judgement not yours that I will enter into His Heavenly Kingdom.

KSigMason
06-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Actually you need to say exactly where that is in the Bible.
I guess I'm not the one who needs to study his Bible more.

Proverbs 12:23 - A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.

Proverbs 11:13 - A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.

Proverbs 10:14 - Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction. (please note that "lay up" means to store for future use)

The secretiveness of the organization is a mark of a cult.
You're confusing "secretiveness" with privacy, something everyone enjoys and has a right to. You even keep many things private, or secret, from others. That you cannot deny.

However, there are enough men and women who have come out of it and shed light on much of what goes on that people can evaluate enough of it to know it is not of God.
Such as who?

I am not a Christian, true or otherwise.

I do not belong to any religious group.

I believe in GOD and HE believes in ME!

That's all that is required.
I know you don't care what I'm about to say, but I can respect your belief. You're a strong willed individual who will no doubt live a worthy life.

KSigMason
06-09-2011, 10:55 PM
Sorry BA, been up for some time now and meant to put that it does NOT exist for the salvation of our soul. We do prayers, but we are not a religion. We believe that all things should begin and end with prayer. Many groups, not religions, do prayers either at the beginning and/or end of the meeting/event.

Again, if there are some typos, it is because I'm extremely tired and have slept really crappy lately.

KSigMason
06-09-2011, 11:04 PM
Please do not quote two members within the same post.

Yes, you're absolutely right.

I am a strong-willed individual who is living a worthy life and I plan on doiing so for a very, very, very, very, long time.
Sorry, I won't do it again. :D

I'm off to bed now. The Tylenol PM is kicking in. I'll be back on in a few days. Tomorrow is some fun filled traveling.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 12:16 PM
I am not referring to you then. My concern is for people who are Christians, authentic ones, being sucked in and deceived by the quasi-religious group called the Freemasons.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 12:28 PM
God does love you, but He is Holy and none of us are completely Holy. That is why He made a way for all of the world, whosoever will believe, to know and when we die to live with Him. I am not deluded enough to believe that a completely HOLY God will accept me by my own merits. I am sure if I put my good works up to yours, I'd come out as worthy (in the way you look at it) as you are, if not more so, but the Bible says that my goodness is like filthy rags compared to complete Holiness, complete perfection. So He in His great love made a way for us, through the sacrifice of the one Perfect Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.
I realize that many people who are church goers and call themselves Christians are merely religious, which to me is the opposite of what authentic Christianity is. Christianity is different from all other religions of the world as it is a "religion" of done, where all others are the religions of doing.
Grace is something that exists in no other religious theology. God knows you and He knows you are like the rest of us, which is less than absolute perfection, fallible, and you have committed at least one sin in your life. God, according to his word does not compare us to each other, but He sees the heart. His standard is perfection. We can't reach perfection, but we can receive Christ who is our Redeemer the one who paid the price for our missing the mark of perfection through his death, and resurrection.
If I depended on the Lord grading me against other people and letting me into His perfect heaven, then my being there would make it no longer a perfect place, without Christ. Now I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ, by faith and that is the reason, I have been made, by grace, worthy to enter in.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 12:37 PM
I put absolutely no faith in my good works to make me worthy for heaven. I put my faith in Jesus Christ who is the perfect man, the perfect sacrifice, and who in His amazing Love has put or as the Bible says "Imputed" his Righteousness on me. That is the only reason that I am now by grace worthy of heaven. Jesus is the reason and the only reason for my salvation. The good works come out of my changed and renewed spirit. I was in darkness and now the Light of the Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in me and walks in me, and confirms that He loves me and has saved me by His grace, for heaven. It is so simple most men who see themselves as having to earn or merit heaven are absolutely hostile towards grace (merited favor). Grace is too easy, they think, they must work and merit being called worthy so Mason or not, it is all the same futile self effort, making ourselves our own God. Freemasonry and un-regenerated mankind are in the same boat.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 12:47 PM
The Bible says different. That is not all that is required. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So yes, He does love you, but believe in your worthiness through your good works, no, that is not true of any of us. The Bible says our good works are as filthy rags. Works done outside of our union with Jesus Christ. The mark of any cult is where they put Jesus. If he was just a good man and not God incarnate, then he couldn't be good since he said of himself that He was God in the flesh. so that would make him a liar and not good at all.. As far as him never existing. The fact that he lived on earth has been proved over and over. And for me, the proof is that I know Him from inside. He is my Savior and friend. He said of Himself in John 3 that He came into the world not to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved.

KSigMason
06-10-2011, 06:36 PM
Excuse me, but as you pointed out and as I have pointed out that which you have pointed out, Freemasonry is a religion.

Thanks for clarifying that for us.
I have not said that Freemasonry is a religion. I have never said that. It doesn't meet the criteria for being a religion.

KSigMason
06-10-2011, 06:39 PM
I am not referring to you then. My concern is for people who are Christians, authentic ones, being sucked in and deceived by the quasi-religious group called the Freemasons.
I am an authentic one as I said. Again, who are you to define one's relationship with God? Can you see into my soul? Do you know God's judgement of me? I don't think so.

It's self righteous people like you that almost drove me entirely from going to church.

KSigMason
06-10-2011, 06:55 PM
First off, please note that from my previous post, that while I stopped going to church for a long time, my faith in Christ never stopped.

I am sure if I put my good works up to yours, I'd come out as worthy (in the way you look at it) as you are, if not more so, but the Bible says that my goodness is like filthy rags compared to complete Holiness, complete perfection.
Wow, just wow. Think a little highly of yourself don't ya? You know nothing about me and what I've done in my life. I'll never say you haven't lived a good life, as I don't know you, but you cannot say your life is comparable to someone else when you don't know them.

Again, I have never denied any of the tenets of Christianity. I know I'm not perfect and that Christ is my Redeemer.

I put absolutely no faith in my good works to make me worthy for heaven.
You should both have faith and do good deeds.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 11:25 PM
I am absolutely no one I am simply saying what the bible says is a Christian. I have no authority of myself but my authority as it is supposed be for all true Christians is the Bible. I only said that I would never presume that my good works however they might compare to yours would be the reason I am worthy of heaven. I have said, I have nothing in myself, but I have done by His grace the only thing that will make me worthy and that is accept that Jesus Christ paid for my worthiness. It is given, not achieved. Actually, I know I am nothing in and of my own self. My hope is totally in Christ Jesus alone. Yes, I have lived a very giving and morally straight life. Not that it is of any bearing on my worthiness for heaven. And I take no credit for whatever good is in me or that I have done. The only works worth anything are the ones that He in me does in and out through me. My faith is in Jesus Christ and my union with him is where the good works worth anything come from. The Bible says He is the vine we are merely branches. Except for the life of the vine, the branches would never have fruit. I actually think highly of Christ alone. Which is why saying that His very name can't be said in a lodge meeting, which does meet the criteria of what a religion is, is a big red flag, it is cult. Look up the definition. It is a false religion. A cult.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 11:28 PM
Your posts though do suggest that you have a very high opinion of yourself. I would never actually compare my deeds to anyone's. I said that to show that if we are using that as a judge of who is worthy, I say neither you or I according to the Bible no matter how "good" compared to others, we are is far, far from perfect which is the standard of a Holy God, who is perfect in every way. Thus the need for a Savior.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 11:39 PM
It is foolish, as St. Paul said to boast. Any good thing that has come from me has come from the Holy Spirit working in and out through me. This is true of every authentic Christian. We are the branches, He is the True Vine, the Bible says. It also says, "it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure." God the Holy Spirit. The Bible says if you have not the Son you don't have the Father. It is all in there. It is my authority. I have none in my own feeble reasoning.

JustTheTruth920
06-10-2011, 11:52 PM
Obviously, I said I do have faith and good deeds, though I take no credit for any of them. There is no such thing as true faith that doesn't produce good works. But it is all coming from His Spirit not my tries to do good. Attaining by good works is what Freemasonry teaches. It teaches "do all of our principles and you will be worthy of the Heavenly Lodge" or some such nonsense. If you are a Christian, then tell me how man made principles have even the least superior comparison to the pure word of God? It doesn't. You can be sure whatever comes out of the pride of humanity is evil and leads to arrogance and self-centeredness all the while pointing to some good deeds to justify themselves. Many, many people who have never stepped a foot into a Lodge are givers of the first degree of time, talent and money and not to gain some reward or title. More outside of the Lodge are givers than are members of the Lodge. Freely without having to tell everyone what they did.
This exclusiveness is simply pride. The idea of gaining some secret knowledge that regular people don't know is simply pride, it is all very foolish, especially for a born again Christian, because as a Christian, the Bible says the love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts. It also says we have the Light of Jesus living in us. It also says that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of any mysteries we need to know and this is available to every human being, regardless of sex, race, or handicap. It is a cult. That is the truth, it has, because most people don't know what is done behind closed doors, gained an appearance of goodness through the philanthropy that is widely broadcast. Enough of what goes on has been revealed for any knowledgeable (scripture - wise) Christian to discern. It is a great deception. But you have to be willing to really look at what scripture says to see that. Taking those oaths is forbidden in the Bible, and there are many other practices incompatible with authentic Christianity.

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 12:10 AM
To say I am SELF-Righteous, is laughable. If anyone knows that in myself I have nothing and am not worthy of heaven, it is me, no matter how "good" a life I may have lead. Getting to heaven by keeping some principles and getting titles and degrees is what self-righteousness looks like. "Look at me, I am a good man, see all these other men in this exclusive organization tell me I am, I have all these degrees, I have given all this money, etc, etc." That is self-righteousness in a nutshell. I claim no true righteousness outside of what Christ has given me by simple Grace, through faith in His finished work. Maybe you better examine what self -righteousness really means. If freely given worthiness given by Christ to you, almost turned you away from church, then I feel sorry for you. Truly. That is all I have been talking about "His worthiness", given (imputed) to us, not my good deeds making me worthy but by His Grace. No one's good deeds will make them worthy for heaven or some silly celestial Lodge. Only Christ alone. His spirit produces good works, not our joining some cult.

KSigMason
06-11-2011, 08:10 AM
But you've made the assumption that I don't follow the Bible as you have previously said:

I am not referring to you then. My concern is for people who are Christians, authentic ones, being sucked in and deceived by the quasi-religious group called the Freemasons.
You have made assumption of which you would have no knowledge of.

I do believe all that I have done I have acheived, but by the good grace of God and how he has guided me in life. I am very thankful for my life as it is something I have almost lost several times; many before I even left my Mother's womb. I praise God for keeping me.

Which is why saying that His very name can't be said in a lodge meeting, which does meet the criteria of what a religion is is a big red flag, it is cult. Look up the definition. It is a false religion. A cult.
We allow men of all faith into our Lodge so we use a generic term so that every man may sit on an equal basis. The individual is important and so is his individual religion. To whom he prays is his own. When we pray I pray to Christ while I know one of my Brothers prays to Allah. It's what is in our heart that counts and God knows who is loyal. I know what a cult is and many things can be called a cult, to include the many, many churches out there. Any group that holds similar ideals can be called a cult, but by what you want the word to mean, Freemasonry is not.

I find it funny in the days where atheists are attacking God left and right, that some zealots find it necessary to attack a group who pushes for faith. You would think they would count us among them, but no, the self righteous hatred drives them to attack others, even those of the same faith. So much for "love one another".

I don't have a high opinion of myself, but I am assure of my knowledge of the Craft and its compatibility with Christianity.

Freemasonry even teaches that it is by the blessings of God that we will be welcome into Heaven.

So you think that "faith, hope, & charity" is wrong? You think "brotherly love, relief, & truth" is wrong? You think that the virtues "temperance, fortitude, prudence, & justice" is wrong?

I've never said that only Freemasons are charitable. Before I joined I was a long time donator to the Red Cross, homeless shelters, and the ACS. Freemasonry doesn't reward you with titles for just giving money. You must earn your place through the Lodge and all of Freemasonry. It teaches that your actions should be selfless and for good, not for sinister, ulterior, or mercenary motive. Freemasonry gives millions a day to charitable work, never asking for anything in return, as it should be.

This exclusiveness is simply pride.
By your words prior, isn't heaven "exclusive"?

I didn't join to gain some "secret knowledge". Nor do we say we're the only place to gain any enlightenment. I joined out of historical interest and as well I enjoy being a part of philanthropic organizations. Our meetings are not some meeting place of NWO planning. Our meetings are not that exciting.

Many of what has been "revealed" I have long proven as a lie.

I don't believe, nor should any Mason believe, that I will gain entry to Heaven by my acts in Freemasonry. Freemasonry doesn't teach that in any way. I didn't join Freemasonry to try and gain a free pass into Heaven. If you think that Freemasons believe we'll go to heaven for simply being members then you have a horrible misconceived knowledge of Freemasonry.

If freely given worthiness given by Christ to you, almost turned you away from church, then I feel sorry for you.
Like I said, I walked away from the church, not Christ. I don't need some preacher to tell me how to be good or how to define my relationship with Christ.

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 02:38 PM
So you think that "faith, hope, & charity" is wrong? You think "brotherly love, relief, & truth" is wrong? You think that the virtues "temperance, fortitude, prudence, & justice" is wrong?

I've never said that only Freemasons are charitable. Before I joined I was a long time donator to the Red Cross, homeless shelters, and the ACS. Freemasonry doesn't reward you with titles for just giving money. You must earn your place through the Lodge and all of Freemasonry. It teaches that your actions should be selfless and for good, not for sinister, ulterior, or mercenary motive. Freemasonry gives millions a day to charitable work, never asking for anything in return, as it should be.

Those things come as a result of being a born again Christian and having the spirit of Christ living in you. No, not against those things, but when those things are the only thing not a secret, (because it makes an evil organization look good) in the case of Freemasonry, it is worthless as far as making good men better. Your faith is in a generic God, not the God of the Bible. There is no name like G.A.O.T. U. ascribed to Almighty God. The Bible says if you deny the Son before me, He would deny you before God.

Again what teachings for a Christian could be better the the Bible? Your principles are so far, far inferior to the the pure Word of God. No Christian needs secret knowledge and yes, that is what it is all about, having knowledge that you are told other people don't have. Pride of Life is what that is about and it is exactly what Satan promised in the garden of Eden.

Taking oaths to pagan Gods of the mystery religions is idolatry. But you know this if you know anything about the Bible which is the only book that was written for the edification of born again believers.

No, heaven is not exclusive. It is open to all who will simply receive the Savior, it is not closed to women or disabled men or from what I understand black men. In fact a friend of mine who was a practicing Mason 32 degree Scottish Rite has told me straight out that no black man would every be privy to the same knowledge that a white Mason receives.

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 03:01 PM
You said, "Many of what has been "revealed" I have long proven as a lie."


So if you know that what you have been taught is a lie, then why stay with an organization which teaches lies??

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 03:11 PM
I only make the assumption that you don't know the Bible by your inability to still see no contradiction between what Freemasonry teaches and what the Bible teaches.

There has been plenty revealed by ex-Masons. You can deny that it is true but then again, denial and lying or misrepresenting Freemasonry is simply part of the organization. You have made oaths that involved horrible bloody penalties for breaking them. First the Bible forbids making oaths, and the fact that you are making an oath with such bloody gruesome consequences is another example of the evil in the organization itself. There has been enough revealed by high ranking ex-Masons that any Christian who has studied and meditated on the Bible should discern what the true nature of the organization is. I know the pat answer is, "Oh they were only disgruntled ex-Masons, etc." Right. The testimonies I have read stated Biblically their reasons for leaving and repenting of their involvement. Most have compassion for those men still blinded to the truth. Not bitterness.

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 03:24 PM
[quote=KSigMason;75363]
Freemasonry even teaches that it is by the blessings of God that we will be welcome into Heaven.

This is a half truth, it is by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ than any person will be welcome to heaven. Jesus said of Himself, " I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, and no man comes to the Father but my me." The fact that Jesus offers salvation free to all is indeed a blessing, but it is not some generic blessings of God that make us welcome to heaven.

In the later degrees, one of the big "secret names" is Abaddon. This is a demon spoken of in Revelation. It is idolatry to make oaths to any other deity. The mystery religions are the old pagan religions. Allah is not the God of the Bible. The Koran demands killing all who do not follow its teachings. So either the Muslim "brother" is infiltrating for another purpose or he is in direct conflict with the teachings of his so called Holy book as well.

G.A.O.T.U. is also a made up name and is not the God of the Bible so every time you pray to that name you are committing idolatry as well.

Are Mason's evil, the individual Mason may not be evil but all are deceived and Christians are practicing the making of oaths, (which the Bible forbids) to who knows what pagan deity, saying of himself that He is in darkness, when the Bible says a true Christian is full of the True Light. So many, many things that are wrong for a Christian. It is a strong delusion.

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 03:50 PM
Photocopied at Thomas Sargant - The Freemason's Manual (http://www.scribd.com/doc/26113264/Thomas-Sargant-)The-Freemason-s-Manual

This comes from page 10 of The Freemason's Manual:

The person who desires to be a Mason must be a man, believing in the existence of a Supreme Being, and of a future existence; at least twenty-one years of age; of good moral character, temperate, industrious, and capable of earning an honest livelihood;(got to pay those dues) he must come of his own free will and accord, uninfluenced by mercenary or other improper motives; be of sound mind and body; capable of reading and writing; not deformed or dismembered, but hale and sound in his physical conformation, having his right limbs as a man ought to have. (So a man who lost limbs serving honorably defending our country would not qualify)

Page 13 - second paragraph
The persons made masons or admitted members of a lodge must be good and true men, free born, and of mature and discreet age and sound judgement, no bondmen, no women, (so women could not qualify as good and true or moral?) no immoral or scandalous men, but of good report. (Shriners are known for their wild and immoral parties)

Married men and women take vows to each other and are charged that they are now one flesh. However, the secretiveness even from wives, breaks that charge of one flesh. So many, many things that are wrong about Freemasonry. while sounding very good on the surface.

JustTheTruth920
06-11-2011, 04:04 PM
Thomas Sargant - The Freemason's Manual (http://www.scribd.com/doc/26113264/Thomas-Sargant-The-Freemason-s-Manual)

Last of the first paragraph of Page 30 THE FREEMASON'S MANUAL

Hence the great, the primary object of the first degree, is to symbolize that birth of intellectual light into the mind; and the Entered Apprentice is the type of unregenerate man, (Christians are not unregenerate men) groping in moral and mental darkness, (the Bible says that born again men have been moved from darkness into the Kingdom of Light) and seeking for that light which is to guide his steps and point him to the path which leads to duty and to Him (G.A.O.T.U.???) who gives to duty its reward. Again, Almighty God has never taken the name of G.A.O.T.U. so it is just a man made name for a god who is not Almighty God, Yaweh, Jehovah. In fact, as a mason "progresses" he learns a name of G.A.O.T.U which is actually a mixture of the word Jehovah, Baal, and one other pagan deity.

Yes, it is works oriented religious organization, through the principles of Freemasonry. It is there in black and white. A Mason prays, worships and studies principles (in place of the Bible) these principles have no dependence on the Spirit of Jesus Christ, which is the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches. Freemason practices prayer, worship and studying material to make a person "better" is in essence what religion is, false religion but still a religion.

KSigMason
06-11-2011, 06:16 PM
I don't believe, nor should any Mason believe, that I will gain entry to Heaven by my acts in Freemasonry. Freemasonry doesn't teach that in any way. I didn't join Freemasonry to try and gain a free pass into Heaven. If you think that Freemasons believe we'll go to heaven for simply being members then you have a horrible misconceived knowledge of Freemasonry.

If freely given worthiness given by Christ to you, almost turned you away from church, then I feel sorry for you.
Like I said, I walked away from the church, not Christ. I don't need some preacher to tell me how to be good or how to define my relationship with Christ.

Freemasonry isn't about hording "secret knowledge". That's just a pathetic attack to say such a thing.

I didn't take oaths to pagan gods. I took my oaths to the one everliving God. Again, God knows what is in my heart. I took my oath on the Bible and swore it to God. He is who binds me to my oaths, not men in a club.

If your friend said that then he is not very Brotherly. I'm guessing he also ascribes to David Duke, but hey I'm not judging. I know many black men who are 33rd Masons. To deny anything to someone based on their race is despicable.

So if you know that what you have been taught is a lie, then why stay with an organization which teaches lies??
Quite the forked tongue. I didn't say what my organization teaches is a lie, but what anti-Masons say is a lie. Don't twist my words and take them out of context.

If there was actually in a truth to what "ex-Masons" say there would have been a larger exodus from the group.

There has been plenty revealed by ex-Masons. You can deny that it is true but then again, denial and lying or misrepresenting Freemasonry is simply part of the organization.
Really? From you pulling a quote here and there from me and then making a smart a** comment isn't misrepresenting? I've talked with many ex-Masons that are now vehement anti-Masons and much of what they say is a lie or a misconception. Most of them never attained anything in their time. I hold the titles some of them have held and have held positions higher than others have held. It's not pride here, but a fact. Some read into what just isn't there and left.

Actually the Bible doesn't say taking oaths is bad, but rather swearing them on certain things is bad. By this you're saying every public servent and officer is thereby breaking the word of God (those who as you said "serving honorable defending our country" take oaths). It is not so.

Numbers 30:2 - If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

In which degree does this occur? I'm guessing you think its in the 17th degree of the Scottish Rite. I have yet to go through the Scottish Rite, but as far as I can tell it is only an accusation by anti-Masons and can find no hard evidence. I await any you have. Even from what I've read from anti-Masons who claim this word is used, it doesn't say that it is used to swear an oath on, but rather to gain entry.

Do you even know where the word "pagan" comes from?

So a man who lost limbs serving honorably defending our country would not qualify)It's up to the Lodge who they admit. Not all jurisdictions have the same rules and requirements. I had just had knee surgery stemming from a tour I had just served and I was allowed in. Many of the ceremonies require interaction and if the candidate cannot fulfill that role then he cannot join.

There are several Masonic organizations that women can join. I guess the fact though that we're a FRATERNITY doesn't slip your mind does it? Some have written on this subject, but I'm sure no matter what answer I give you would not be satisfied.
off,
My girlfriend was more than okay with me going to Lodge. She even came as my date to Grand Lodge and there are many social events where the public is welcomed and the wives, and family, of Masons are not treated like second hand citizens.

My going to Masons doesn't break my vows and my spouse should have enough trust in me that she knows I would not do anything dishonest or wrong.

In fact, as a mason "progresses" he learns a name of G.A.O.T.U which is actually a mixture of the word Jehovah, Baal, and one other pagan deity.
Well, first off, no we don't learn that a name of God is a mixture of several different words. That is an accusation by Stephen Knight who makes a statement and says he has sources, but never cites them. He just states them as if we'll just take it as fact (and sadly, many have without researching it. As for Ba'al, yes, he is used to describe a Canaanite god, but the word ba'al is used dozens of times to describe locations, cities, and humans as well.

I'm so glad you brought up Baal. In May I read an interesting book called "Workman Unashamed" by Christopher Haffner who first starts talking about the very name of God and its start as YHWH leading to the transformation into Jehovah, meaning "Lord" and its applications through the Bible and variations between the different versions of the Bible. Examples is Jehovah Elohim, Jehovah Rohi, and so forth (fascinating read). He then starts on Ba'al and the Bible where he states the following things:

Despite the fact that no Royal Arch ritual uses the word Ba'al...

---

Throughout the Old Testament, the word Ba'al is an ordinary everyday word, with ordinary everyday meanings. It is true that it is used sixty-nine times to represent a Canaanite god or gods, although often not as a proper name, but as a description. It is used as a proper name of other things or persons many times. For Example Ba'al is the name of a city in 1 Chronicles 4:33. In 1 Chronicles 5:5 and 9:36, it is a name of a Jewish person.

It is used even more frequently in combination:

Baal Gad, Baal Hazor, Baal Hermon, Baal Meon, Baal Perazim, Baal Shalisha, Baal Tamar, Baal Zephon, Baalah, Baalath (feminine of Baal), Baalath Beor and Baale are names of towns or places.
Baal Hanan and Baalis are names of kings.
Baal Berith, Baal Peor, and Baal Zebub (Lord of the Flies) are names of gods.

---

However, what is much more significant is the use of baal translated into other words. It is translated as "master" four times...

---

This is very important, as by analogy, Yahweh is the Ba'al of Israel. Another translation is "owner" (twelve times).

---

A third translation is as husband (eleven times).

He then goes on to talk about Stephen Knight's book, The Brotherhood, and debunks much of the Masons worship Ba'al myth:

With disregard for logical thought, Knight makes assumptions about the meaning of the second Royal Arch word which appear nowhere in any Masonic ritual, and then treats them as if they were true. He proceeds to suggest that the words of an obscure sixteenth century demonologist are relevant to twentieth century Masons. Knight is attacking only what his imagination has led him to believe is the meaning of the second word, with no reference the only relevant meanings - those which are explained to every new Royal Arch Mason.

Quick question: What version of the Bible do you read?

KSigMason
06-11-2011, 10:00 PM
KSigMason said:

"I didn't take oaths to pagan gods. I took my oaths to the one everliving God."

What oaths did you take to the one everliving GOD?
All 15 of them.

KSigMason
06-11-2011, 10:51 PM
Kindly name the 15 oaths.

Thanks!
Okay.

1. Enterred Apprentice 2. Fellowcraft 3. Master Mason 4. Mark Master 5. Past Master 6. Most Excellent Master (I know) 7. Royal Arch Mason 8. Royal Master 9. Select Master 10. Order of the Red Cross 11. Order of Malta 12. Order of the Temple 13. Order of the Knight of York 14. Order of the Eastern Star 15. Order of the High Priesthood (a body that has no priestly duties but rather commemorates the HPs of the Bible; High Priest is the name of the officer of the Royal Arch degree).

JustTheTruth920
06-12-2011, 03:49 PM
There is none so blind as those who will not see.

JustTheTruth920
06-12-2011, 04:13 PM
I bet the 15 oaths are somewhere on the Internet. As far as
The oaths and the gruesome penalties, you are reaching to compare them to oaths of office. Just as I figured you dismissed the testimonies of former high degreed masons
by a wholesale attack of their character. It is the pay reply
one will always hear. I am not against you personally
But am most certainly against an organization who does fit within the dictionary description of a religion. To forbid Christians from praying in the Name of their Lord and Savior. That one fact should be enough reason to run like he'll from it. All of the other reasons are just other reasons. You have not denied this is true. It is despicable about the race thing as well as the loss of limb thing. you deny that there are promises of exclusive knowledge. It is clear from even the manual posted on the Internet. But it is a spiritual blindness. And of course you will have Masons discrediting any detractors. Par for the course. As I said the are no so called principles that would come close to what every Christian has freely available by studying the Holy Bible. This is the simple truth. Your anger by calling me names tells me a lot. However you can no more convince me that what is actually true is false, any more than I can convince you that Freemasonry is a cult and though having the appearance of good, is deceptive at it's core. No amount of personal attacks will change the facts some of which you have admitted are true.
I don't think that I have attacked you personally only what you believe about freemasonry.

JustTheTruth920
06-12-2011, 04:14 PM
I bet the 15 oaths are somewhere on the Internet. As far as the oaths and the gruesome penalties, you are reaching to compare them to oaths of office.

Just as I figured you dismissed the testimonies of former high degree masons by a wholesale attack of their character. It is the pat reply one will always hear. I am not against you personally but am most certainly against an organization who does fit within the dictionary description of a religion and yet portray itself as something else.

I am praying that my friend who presently doesn't attend but still pays dues, will completely disconnect himself from Freemasonry. I realize like you it will take a miracle, but miracles happen everyday. I don't hate him and I don't hate you. What Freemasonry is, yes, it is anti- what the Bible teaches and for Christians yes, I hate that many have become involved in it, most innocently, since they don't tell you what it is really about until you are deep in it.

To forbid Christians from praying in the Name of their Lord and Savior. That one fact should be enough reason to run like hell from it. All of the other reasons are just other reasons. You have not denied this is true. It is despicable about the race thing as well as the loss of limb thing. you deny that there are promises of exclusive knowledge. It is clear from even the manual posted on the Internet. But it is a spiritual blindness. And of course you will have Masons discrediting any detractors. Par for the course. As I said the so called principles that wouldn't come close to what every Christian has freely available by studying the Holy Bible. This is the simple truth. Your anger by calling me names tells me a lot. However you can no more convince me that what is actually true is false, any more than I can convince you that Freemasonry is a cult and though having the appearance of good, is deceptive at it's core. No amount of personal attacks will change the facts some of which you have admitted are true.
I don't think that I have attacked you personally only what you believe about freemasonry.

Also, I am not sure what you meant by my friend not having the "authority" to say it. It is what he was told by another Mason. If it is not true everywhere, it apparently is in some lodges. yes, the prejudice is despicable but so is prejudice behind refusing to accept my example of a wounded soldier if it is such a great fraternity. Of course in my view someone rejected by the Freemasons is better off than they know. They have been spared the deception.

KSigMason
06-12-2011, 04:45 PM
I bet most of the oaths are on the net somewhere.

If you could, can you please post the "testimonies" of these "former high degreed Masons"? Can you post what degrees they've gone through and positions they've sat in? Degree doesn't rank. I mean I'm sure some were 32nd degree Scottish Rite Masons, but the Scottish Rite is not some superior degree above all others.

Freemasonry is not a religion:

Our purpose as freemasons is not that of a religion. Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion. Freemasonry is not a religion nor is it a substitute for religion.

-Freemasonry advocates no sectarian faith or practise.
-Freemasonry seeks no converts
-We solicit no new members
-We have no dogma or theology. Religious discussion is forbidden in a masonic lodge thereby eliminating the chance for any masonic dogma to form.
-It offers no sacraments and does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with the modes of recognition only and not with the means of salvation.
-Freemasonry supports religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practise, it expects each member to follow his own faith.

A man does not subscribe to a new religion, much less to an anti-Christian religion when he becomes a freemason, any more than when he joins any political party or community association. There is nothing in Freemasonry that is opposed to the religion he brings with him into the masonic lodge. Freemasonry does not assert nor does it teach that one religion is as good as another. Freemasonry admits men of all religions. Freemasons believe in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and his God is personal, private and sacred.

SOURCE (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/textfiles/religion.html)
Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it.

To forbid Christians from praying in the Name of their Lord and Savior.
You misunderstand. In the Lodge (Blue Lodge) we use generic terms as we have men of all faiths. We cannot elevate our own faith above another in the Lodge, but when we pray its to the individual Creator that they pray to. When I pray I'm praying to Christ.

It is despicable about the race thing as well as the loss of limb thing.
I do deny what your "friend" said about black men. It is despicable and he has no authority to say that.

I am still curious as to what version of the Bible you read?

JustTheTruth920
06-12-2011, 10:57 PM
I am afraid you are quoting the typical Mason answer to it not being a religion. In any case, you can read testimonies which I am sure you will discount as disgruntled ex-Masons etc. etc. Try googling ex-masons for Jesus. They tell their stories, what degrees they attained and some talk about how many in their own families were also Masons etc. Which I am sure is very common. There are many testimonies. Why waste any more time putting a url when if you were really interested in the truth you'd investigate and read the other side by yourself by searching it out yourself. It is pointless to keep talking about it because you are only repeating what you have been instructed to say by your Masonic teachers or leaders or whatever the official titles are of those who instruct you in Masonic teachings. I am weary because this is not an open minded discussion where you are actually addressing these issues. You can't really answer the main one. Which is how can a Christian stay in ANY organization that will not allow the name of Jesus mentioned in the meetings. It is possible to be loving to mankind without being a Mason. Many people reach out to people from other cultures without giving up the freedom to say the name of Jesus their Savior. So I am over and out about this. I tried that is all I am responsible for when in a discussion with another professing Christian. I wish you well.

JustTheTruth920
06-12-2011, 11:08 PM
I read the Holy Bible, I prefer to read King James version Bible, but like some of the other translations as well. The difference between you and me at this point at least, is that I do actually study my Bible. If you studied yours a fraction of the time you spend memorizing Masonic rhetoric, you would see for yourself the incapability of Masonic teaching and the Bible. I mean when you read the Bible in context. Anyway, we could go on for months and this would get nowhere. A person has to want to know what the Bible teaches. You have to want to know that more than you want to be right. And at this point Freemasonry and whatever you are getting out of it, is simply more important to you. I wish you well.

KSigMason
06-12-2011, 11:26 PM
You realize that King James was a Freemason right?

I'll read through them again, and I'll post my reply. From a glance at each of the authors, I either am equal to the rank they held or have held a higher rank, or they weren't even Masons (rather they were apart of the the youth or women's organizations).

As for the whole family-Mason comment, I know of some families that have several Masons in them, but as for me, I'm the first in my family.

JustTheTruth920
06-12-2011, 11:41 PM
You said: A man does not subscribe to a new religion, much less to an anti-Christian religion when he becomes a freemason, any more than when he joins any political party or community association. There is nothing in Freemasonry that is opposed to the religion he brings with him into the masonic lodge. Freemasonry does nassert nor does it teach that one religion is as good as another. Freemasonry admits men of all religions. Freemasons believe in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and his God is personal, private and sacred.

If all of this is true then why is religious freedom suppressed in lodge meetings as well as freedom of speech?? That is a rhetorical question. I know you have a pat answer, but it joining a political group does not negate freedom of religious expression such as praying in the name of Jesus nor does it forbid the free expression of your religious views. There is just no way around it. The oaths taken by Masons is far and away different that taking an oath of office. They are taken in secret, not in the open for one thing. I have never heard of the Lion's Club or Civitan etc forbidding praying in the Name of Jesus either, in fact I have been to a meeting where I was a guest, in one of these meetings. It was in the open, no big secretive deal.
You know there is a big difference. But it is typical to make it appear to be the same. It is not. You know it, and I know it.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 12:06 AM
If all of this is true then why is religious freedom suppressed in lodge meetings as well as freedom of speech??
I have explained this already to you.

The oaths taken by Masons is far and away different that taking an oath of office. They are taken in secret, not in the open for one thing.
Who is the one interpreting the Bible for their own sake now? The Bible doesn't say whether the oaths be in secret or not, nor do they make any differentiations between what kind of oaths are good and bad.

I have never heard of the Lion's Club or Civitan etc forbidding praying in the Name of Jesus either, in fact I have been to a meeting where I was a guest, in one of these meetings. It was in the open, no big secretive deal.
You know there is a big difference. But it is typical to make it appear to be the same. It is not. You know it, and I know it.
That's awesome for the Lion's Club. I've been to their meetings as well as Kiwanis. Here's the big thing though, as free citizens we are allowed to assemble as we wish.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 03:09 AM
Actually no, and you'd have to prove that. But he did not personally translate the Bible but rather he commissioned its translation. But of course you must have known that, right?

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 03:11 AM
This is true, you are allowed to assemble that has not been the point of our discussion. The point is whether a Christian knowing that the name of Christ is prohibited from being mentioned should continue in such an organization seeing that Christ is the person who is our Savior, if He is not to be honored then who, for a Christian, should be?. The point is that Freemansonry is not like any other club as you mentioned. It differs in that way and in others. But you know this, don't you see that this is all double speak?

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 03:20 AM
This is from a yahoo answer, so who knows who is telling the truth, however this answer seems much more likely than what you have said. Also if King James had been a Mason why would he be happy with a translation that would be in conflict with Masonic teachings

From Yahoo answers: to the question was King James a Mason?
Wow, I feel like I need to put on my chest waders for stepping into this swamp...
King James was not a Mason, the fraternity was not officially established until almost a century after his death. The actual working guilds of stonemasons, and certain intellectual circles that eventually came together to create the Masonic fraternity, did exist in James' lifetime, but it is highly unlikely a king would have been involved with commoners of this kind in his time.

There is no "Masonic M hand sign". If you care to research art history, you will find the explanation for paintings, statues, (and later posed photographs) exhibiting this configuration of the hands has to do with proportion and directing the eye to focal points of the work. The technique dates back far beyond Freemasonry existing.

Masonry does not have or perform oaths, charms, devilish or black arts nor astrology. Masonry has an obligation, which is different than an oath. Charms, astrology, etc. are superstitions that defy reason as well as the Word of God, and are offensive therefore to every Mason.

Masonry cannot be demonstrated to hate King James. He was dead before Masonry even existed. The Bible he commissioned, The King James Version, is the one Bible held by EVERY Masonic Lodge in the world, no matter where the Lodge resides or the religious make-up of its members.

The information I have provided you is accurate and factual. I don't care what your site says. If it says otherwise about Masonry or how it relates to James himself, it is wrong.
Source(s):
-Freemason

Although the guy is not telling the truth about the oaths etc. My point is here is another Mason saying the opposite. Where did you get that King James was a Mason.

Again he did not translate the Bible but commissioned learned men to do so.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 03:39 AM
King James I: Biography of King James I (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/kingbio.htm)

The link above is his biography, he was a weak and sickly man, but a very learned man who was a devout Christian. There is no mention of being a Mason. Also why would a King associate with commoners as the Mason who answered the Yahoo question stated?
Also he was weak in body, isn't that a reason not to admit a man?
His life was devoted to study not Freemasonry. This is just another lie propogated by some in Freemasonry. King James is not alive to defend himself. So that is probably best not said.

In any case, he commissioned the translation and did not translate the Bible himself.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 03:46 AM
There was also a rumor that Billy Graham is a Freemason. This was been denied by the Billy Graham association, but Freemasons have the tendency to lie about who is or has been a Freemason. Why not? Lies are part and parcel of the "fraternity".

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 03:53 AM
Did you know that rumors of King James being a Mason, or Billy Graham being a Mason or any other famous Christian being a Mason, even if true would not change a thing about my objections. Christ is above all for Christians. If you deny him before men, the Bible says he will deny you before the Father.
It seems very unlikely that King James would be part of a group that would not allow the mention of Christ's name in prayer. Or certainly that Billy Graham would be part of something like that, since his entire life is devoted to spreading the gospel. Something he would have been prohibited from doing as part of Freemasonry. It is ludicrous, the things that Masons will say to legitimize their organization.
You have already admitted that Jesus Christ can't be mentioned at meetings legally. People can say anything but that doesn't make it true. You'd have to have real proof about King James. Which you don't.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 04:35 AM
Once again it is really pointless to keep this up. I do agree, the Bible does not specify which kind of oath. I believe that a person who for religious reasons refuses to swear in in a court room is allowed to just say yes, I will tell the truth. But if you are comparing the bloody oaths of Freemasonry to oaths of office there is still a huge difference. I personally don't believe in taking oaths of any kind because of this scripture.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 04:37 AM
The first and foremost objection is the forbidding of using the name of Jesus inside of a lodge meeting. That one alone is enough to incriminate the lodge.
But there are many more reasons.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:21 AM
Actually no, and you'd have to prove that. But he did not personally translate the Bible but rather he commissioned its translation. But of course you must have known that, right?
When King James was 35 he was initiated into Scoon and Perth Lodge #3 on April 15, 1601. He had a hand in a reorganization of Freemasonry in England. Also note that the KJV is the Bible used in most Masonic Lodges.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:31 AM
This is true, you are allowed to assemble that has not been the point of our discussion. The point is whether a Christian knowing that the name of Christ is prohibited from being mentioned should continue in such an organization seeing that Christ is the person who is our Savior, if He is not to be honored then who, for a Christian, should be?. The point is that Freemansonry is not like any other club as you mentioned. It differs in that way and in others. But you know this, don't you see that this is all double speak?
When I say my prayers I say them to Christ. To those who worship him he is not denied. Freemasonry is a religious tolerant organization and as such we use generic terms to not hold one above another. In most Lodges the Bible sits on the altar as their membership is primarily Christian. In some places you can see either the Torah or the Koran sitting there, and in some places you see all 3. It's up to the Lodge really.

What is the point of Freemasonry to you then?

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:42 AM
As for the Freemason who responded on Yahoo answers, he must not have known.

Source (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/james_vi/james_vi.html): D. Crawford Smith and William James Hughan, History of the Ancient Masonic Lodge of Scoon and Perth (Number 3, The Lodge of Scone) Perth: Cowan and Company, Limited, 1898. Also see: Year Book of the Grand Lodge of Antient Free and Accepted Masons of Scotland 1990, p. 50. Note that the Contract or Mutual Agreement is the only record of this initiation, that this history was commissioned by the lodge to establish its claims of precedence, and there is no primary source documentation. Image: artist unknown 'detail'. Scottish National Portrait Gallery.
I also argue against the posters claim that ALL Masonic Lodges use the Bible because not all of them do. I know for a fact that there is a primarily Jewish Lodge in NY that doesn't use the Bible.

Also if King James had been a Mason why would he be happy with a translation that would be in conflict with Masonic teachings
I don't see a conflict and neither did he.

If the poster was a Mason he was mistaken and if knowing who he was I would correct him on his information so he knew better.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:47 AM
Also he was weak in body, isn't that a reason not to admit a man?
Well, just because he was sickly doesn't mean he was incapable of going through the initiation and in that time it Freemasonry was going through a transformation and it was fairly aristocratic. Plus, do you really think that in that time they would deny admittance to a king? You're also under the presumption that they had the same membership requirements that we have now.

Also, your link isn't an official biography and is a type of site that doesn't seem to friendly to Freemasonry and thus I doubt would include that.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:50 AM
There was also a rumor that Billy Graham is a Freemason. This was been denied by the Billy Graham association, but Freemasons have the tendency to lie about who is or has been a Freemason. Why not? Lies are part and parcel of the "fraternity".
Well who started the rumor? Do you have link to this rumor? Just because there's a rumor that he was a Freemason doesn't mean it was started by the Masons. There are tons of non-Masonic sites out there that claim all sorts of people are Freemasons who are in fact not, but they claim it nonetheless.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:53 AM
Not mentioning in the Lodge isn't the same as denying him. In my prayers I pray to Christ and He knows this. He knows what is in my heart.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 05:57 AM
The first and foremost objection is the forbidding of using the name of Jesus inside of a lodge meeting. That one alone is enough to incriminate the lodge.
But there are many more reasons.
Such as? So far all you've been ranting about is the lack of the use of Christ in the Blue Lodge. You've yet really to say anything else.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 07:55 AM
As I said I have friends who have gotten caught up in it who are Christians.

I don't believe there is evidence that King James was a Mason. Yes, he would have had to approve of something that if he compared the two things he would have known they are in contradiction to each other.

I understand that in your heart you were praying to Jesus Christ, but to have to not say his name in prayers that are said out loud is wrong.

If others would be offended by that why would they not also be offended by the Bible which would have the old and the New Testament (concerning Jewish members). Again, the G.A.O.T.U is not a legitimate name of God Almighty. It is the spoken name of Jesus apparently that is the big offense, not the Bible which has His name throughout the New Testament.

So you are saying that Muslim "worshippers" never say the name Allah? Or Buddists, "Budda"? If it is not a religion why have names like worshipful master, etc. It does fit all the criteria of a religion. I have seen my friend become suddenly angry over the least question about Freemasonry. If someone had questioned him about his faith in Christ, he would not respond with the same zeal. That is worrisome, that is more than just a fraternity. Those bloody oaths are not the same as an oath of office which is more a confirmation and certainly not said with blood gruesome consequences for not fulfilling that oath. There is something very dark and to me very evil about that kind of oath taking in particular. Also there is a direct quote and if I can find it, it says that Masons are striving to be accepted in the some kind of Celestial Lodge and it very definitely if considered as written and said is saying that the fulfillment of the principles of Masonry will make any man worthy of heaven. How else would Muslim, Hindu, and other religions see it? In any case, it makes no difference unless you or my friend are willing to really look at what is said and the real meaning behind it. Even in the scanned copy of the Freemason Manual you can see statements that indicate the same as I have been saying. But the Lord has to convict a person for one to see. There are many ways to do the same thing without being in a secret group, out in the open and in the Name of Jesus Christ. We are told to go and tell. This is not something you are allowed to do in Freemasonry. Anyway, this is something we will not agree upon. It is clear to me and I have seen the difference in my friend, for the worse since getting involved.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 07:59 AM
Ranting?? No, simply stating strongly what I see and believe about Freemasonry. That is the subject of this thread. Is Freemasonry evil? It is. I am not talking about individual men but the organization, yes, is evil. With a cloak of goodness about it.

There is a lot to say but the biggest thing that I see is the forced omission of the name of Jesus which to a Christian is a precious name above all other since it is that Name of that Savior who is our reason for expectation of heaven. By grace through faith.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. (I don't see how it can be much clearer than that.) Those are not my words, my "ranting". Those are the words of the Bible. The Bible which is the only legitimate "manual" for any Christian.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2: Timothy 3:16

I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation. Psalms 40:10

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:26-28

20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” 21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. 1 Timothy 6:20-21

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 08:35 AM
Neither was your link but was favorable to Freemasons.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 09:42 AM
"The universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long lived that was not built upon this foundation...The ministers of this religion are all Masons... Its sacrifices to God are good works... and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable." (Page 219)
Morals and Dogma - Albert Pike

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 06:47 PM
As for Jewish members, they can request during their ceremonies that the Torah sit in place.

Who are you to say how I refer to God? In Masonic terms that is how he is referenced, at least in the Blue Lodge.

Worshipful Master is a title given to the presiding officer of the Lodge. Worshipful is derived from Old English meaning "one worthy of respect". We actually don't worship him. One of my maintenance guys is a conspiracy theorist and he's accused (not asked) the Masons of all sorts of crazy things. I don't get angry, I usually laugh, which in turns pisses him off. I have no problem asking questions, I encourage it. I stay civil as long as the other person stays civil. I'm a member of a political forum and its filled with religion hating atheists and I'm on their constantly defending the Faith and Christ. Sometimes it gets down right vicious.

Nowhere in our oaths do we talk about entry into the Celestial Lodge above. One of our symbols talks about the Celestial Lodge above, but it does not say by our works alone or by being Freemasons do we gain entry into our individual version of Heaven.

According to Jesus our works do matter (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions.

James 2:17 - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

James 2:24 - "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James 2:26 - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Matthew 7:20-21 - "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

The Bible clearly shows that works are needed and that faith alone cannot gain you into Heaven. By the works you do they must be done for pure reasons, not selfish ones though. The Bible warns against this as well for you will not be rewarded.

As for your secrecy verses:

Proverbs 11:13 - "A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter."

Proverbs 12:23 - "A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness."

Proverbs 25:9 - "Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:"

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 07:11 PM
Works are a natural result of faith. But it has no part in salvation. It is the result of a person being saved and regenerated. Titus 3:5 again.

A true Christian will have works because of the Holy Spirit because as the Bible says " If any man be in Christ he is a new creature old things are passed away, all things are become new.'

Also the Bible says that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

As I said, I in myself am no one other than a vessel of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says this of us who have accepted His free gift and asked Him into our hearts. I am simply saying what the Bible says. Anyway. I am not going to check my email anymore, I don't have time for pointless debates on this anymore.

I wish you well.

JustTheTruth920
06-13-2011, 07:19 PM
By the way, what I have said is clearly seen in the Freemasonry material. And the other is from scripture. A talebearer is someone who makes things up.

Anyway, I might ask the same question of you. Who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't believe. If I believe the Bible who are you to accuse me of being anything when clearly you are simply ignoring most of what I have brought up.

Titus 3: 5 Not by works of righteous that we have done but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

So no, works will never save us. But works are the natural result of being a changed person. You know nothing of my good works, which i don't take credit for anyway, anything worth mentioning is done by the Holy Spirit in and out through me. I have nothing in and of myself to boast of in good works, and yet, I have had many good works (which it is silly to even mention) because we are not accepted on our works.

But I have already said this, this is just a repeat. Anyway, we don't agree. So write something else but I am too busy to have to go over and over the same things. You and I don't agree and we will never agree on Freemasonry.
Again I wish you well.

It is over and out for me.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 07:45 PM
So because Titus 3:5 says it, no other verse can possibly counter that? So James and Matthew were wrong? I clearly posted several verses that support good works being needed.

I'm not saying that without Freemasonry men cannot do good works, but I am saying that Freemasonry does do good deeds.

Who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't believe. If I believe the Bible who are you to accuse me of being anything when clearly you are simply ignoring most of what I have brought up.
I never said you couldn't believe what you want, but I'm countering the points that are clearly wrong. You can believe it all day long, doesn't mean its true.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 09:51 PM
Each of those degrees has an obligation. I am not going to post everyone of the obligations though.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 10:06 PM
It's against my obligation to reveal them to non-members and even if you were I wouldn't post them on a open forum.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 11:05 PM
Well, I'm currently stuck at a passenger terminal trying to get back to my base so no Lodge for me.

KSigMason
06-13-2011, 11:57 PM
Everything you post on this forum is irrelevant.
I'd rather have them be irrelevant than false like the many lies held against Freemasonry.

Have a nice evening and I do hope you get back to your base and lodge real soon cause I have no clue how they can and/or will function without you.

But, rest assured, that once you've been banned from this forum we'll function fine without you!
I won't be back to Lodge for months, but I see no reason to ban me again. I have broken no rules. Unless telling the truth is a violation of sorts on this forum, but then again this forum doesn't really thrive on truth.

KSigMason
06-14-2011, 12:59 AM
I did name the 15 oaths, I just didn't post the entirety of those obligations. The names of the oaths are the same as the degree they are found in, so therefore, I did name them. :p You can ban again if you will, but I'll still be back.

KSigMason
06-14-2011, 01:29 AM
Dude, you didn't name the 15 oaths and if I ban you again I'll ban you forever; which I didn't do the last time; therefore, you won't be back.

:p
I did name them in this post (http://www.clubconspiracy.com/forum/f32/masons-evil-5791-37.html#post75376). I just didn't post the entirety because it is against my oath to do so and for you to ask me to is to break my fidelity, and I will never do such a thing.

I won't be back as KSigMason, but I'll be back under a different nom de guerre.

KSigMason
06-15-2011, 08:20 PM
You haven't been banned so why would you come back under a different nom de guerre and, FYI, if you are banned as KSigMason and return under a different username, you'll be banned under that name, as well.

Since you can't post the 15 oaths because you took an oath not to reveal them, I suggest it is safe for us to assume that Freemasonry is a SECRET SOCIETY.
I'd only show up under another name if you banned me and unless I made it clear who I was you wouldn't realize it was me.

No, secret societies hide their meeting location and who their members our. We don't. We're a private organization who has secrets.

KSigMason
06-17-2011, 03:52 AM
If you say so.

KSigMason
06-17-2011, 11:52 PM
You have your ways? I'm guessing you think you'll be able to track my IP, but I can switch that pretty easily.

Freemasonry doesn't hide their membership or our meeting locations. Everyone has secrets. Secrets don't make something a secret society.

trogers78
06-19-2011, 08:55 PM
I truly think they are evil

KSigMason
06-21-2011, 06:01 AM
A liar, but not evil.
I have never lied.

KSigMason
06-26-2011, 12:46 AM
Yes you have, but we don't care about that.

We're more interested in you posting the 15 oaths of Freemasonry.
I posted the degrees they belonged to, but I will not post the wording as that would make me a liar, and I am not a liar. I find it speaks much of someone's character when they want someone to break their word, their fidelity, in self interest.

KSigMason
06-27-2011, 09:25 AM
We're a private organization with secret modes of recogntion. Much of ritual work can be found by anybody with half a brain.

I will not break my word for someone on the internet.

I'm asking you to break your word.

Forgoodnesssakes, that truly speaks to the dispicable person that I am.
I want to be a man of my word and that's despicable. I know in this day and age, keeping your word is something of an anomaly, but fidelity is far from despicable. You asking me to break my word is repugnant as is your character.

KSigMason
06-28-2011, 06:52 AM
I'm sure you are a sweet person in real life. I will keep climbing and when I sit as Grand Master, I'll still come on here, and hopefully you're here to so we can exchange words then as well.

neopythagorean
09-16-2011, 09:47 AM
Masons are not sectarians. This is what has given us the reputation of being "evil" because fundamentalist religious people think that either you do it THEIR way or you are with the "devil".

We put aside our biases to meet on the level where everyone is equal and free. The garbage man and the CEO are the same. So are the Christian and the Moslem. If a man is a Mason, then that is good enough for us. Why? Because becoming a Mason means dedicating yourself to being wiser, more generous and to NEVER stop trying to help others--whether they are Masons or not.

Masons give with no need for recognition or reward. If there are secrets in Masonry, they are the many ways we help with no one knowing anything about it. We don't pass up a homeless guy without giving him relief. We don't pass a poor child without giving him a piece of candy or soda pop or something. We don't wait to see if others will help--we just up and do it. When a house burns down, we'll help the owners get on their feet. If a family is going hungry, we will sneak them food so that their pride isn't hurt. These are just a few "minor" examples. We want to help lift people up so that they can take care of themselves. We love people--ALL people, regardless of religion, economic status, politics, etc. If this is "evil", then I don't want to be "good".

stompk
09-26-2012, 07:37 AM
Bump

KSigMason
10-07-2012, 01:24 PM
Nope. Masons are still not evil.

stompk
10-07-2012, 02:04 PM
Nope. Masons are still not evil.

Still having sex with goats?

KSigMason
10-07-2012, 03:21 PM
Still having sex with goats?
I never had sex with a goat. I'm not into the bestiality scene.

stompk
10-07-2012, 03:59 PM
I never had sex with a goat. I'm not into the bestiality scene.

http://i35.tinypic.com/30c55yg.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2r6e36h.jpg

KSigMason
10-09-2012, 12:05 AM
And this is evidence of my supposed bestiality?

Ozziecynic
10-09-2012, 10:56 PM
Ahoy stompk I hardly think attacking masons is a christian thing to do i mean Freemasonry= Religion any religion are like two peas in the same pod, we dont have this pyramid control system without it.
I dont really understand all these pple that attack freemasonry based on christian position when i have never encounted a christian in my physical or cyber experience that has ever had anything to say about masons at all, let alone be anti mason. Most lay christians so dumb they dont even think masons exist so how could they be anti or not.

KSigMason
10-09-2012, 11:40 PM
...i mean Freemasonry= Religion...
Freemasonry isn't a religion.

Ozziecynic
10-11-2012, 04:56 AM
Religion & freemasonry christianity something to me. Churches infested with your smelly brothers. Ministers have even hinted to me in their handshake, plus all their phony balony Political correctness, Humanism etc they seem to preach these things in sermons more than the Gospels themselves and this is protestants, baptists,methodists etc to be specific not just catholics which i regard as even worse. Infact only one thing worse than secret societies and thats religion any religion, in that respect i have something in common with agnostics.

stompk
10-11-2012, 06:41 AM
Ahoy stompk I hardly think attacking masons is a christian thing to do i mean Freemasonry= Religion any religion are like two peas in the same pod, we dont have this pyramid control system without it.
I dont really understand all these pple that attack freemasonry based on christian position when i have never encounted a christian in my physical or cyber experience that has ever had anything to say about masons at all, let alone be anti mason. Most lay christians so dumb they dont even think masons exist so how could they be anti or not.

Like I've said before, I'm not a Christian. I don't belong to any religion. I believe in God, and Jesus, but I feel the idea of a Church, Temple, or Lodge, is simply a device of control by Satan.

In America, every small town has the Masonic signs at the entrance of the town...they control all banking, politics, etc, and they are loyal to the Queen of England, which in my opinion is the most traitorous organization in America.

KSigMason
10-11-2012, 10:56 AM
Churches infested with your smelly brothers.
Smelly? That's harsh and unnecessary...and untrue. Plus are we not allowed to worship along side our fellow Christians (as many Masons are Christian)?

Ministers have even hinted to me in their handshake
Hinted what?

plus all their phony balony Political correctness, Humanism etc they seem to preach these things in sermons more than the Gospels themselves and this is protestants, baptists,methodists etc to be specific not just catholics which i regard as even worse.
What does political correctness or humanism have to do with Freemasonry?

If you don't like the sermon let the minister know.

Like I've said before, I'm not a Christian. I don't belong to any religion. I believe in God, and Jesus, but I feel the idea of a Church, Temple, or Lodge, is simply a device of control by Satan.
And you have the right to that opinion and belief. Nothing is wrong with having an opinion.

In America, every small town has the Masonic signs at the entrance of the town
Examples of this is? Can you really prove that EVERY small town has a Masonic sign at the entrance? I think you are exaggerating.

they control all banking, politics, etc,
Incorrect. Freemasonry has no control outside the bounds of the Lodge and an attempt to circumvent any process through Freemasonry is an offense that would earn a Brother expulsion.

and they are loyal to the Queen of England, which in my opinion is the most traitorous organization in America.
No we're not, on both of your assertions. We American Masons are not bound to the British Crown (Queen or King) nor do we foster any activity that would label us as traitorous by any rational mind.

stompk
05-21-2013, 07:48 AM
Ksig calls himself Emminent commander. Is this guy in love with himself, or what.

KSigMason
05-21-2013, 08:24 AM
Ksig calls himself Emminent commander. Is this guy in love with himself, or what.
I do love myself as everyone does, but my title is not something egotistical, it's a literal title.

The title "Eminent Commander" is my current office in the York Rite of Freemasonry, as I am in charge of a Commandery of Knights Templar (one of the bodies). I didn't choose the name as it was already set-up and has been set-up for nearly 2-centuries by the Grand Encampment.

KSigMason
05-22-2013, 01:26 AM
Ksig calls himself Emminent commander. Is this guy in love with himself, or what.
Plus, what does this have to do with the thread?

stompk
05-22-2013, 06:11 AM
I do love myself as everyone does, but my title is not something egotistical, it's a literal title.

The title "Eminent Commander" is my current office in the York Rite of Freemasonry, as I am in charge of a Commandery of Knights Templar (one of the bodies). I didn't choose the name as it was already set-up and has been set-up for nearly 2-centuries by the Grand Encampment.

What have you done to gain such a lofty title??

KSigMason
05-22-2013, 09:12 AM
What have you done to gain such a lofty title??
Short answer: I was elected.

Long answer: After attaining the Master Mason I waited 2-years before joining the York Rite as I worked on my proficiency ticket in Lodge. When I did join I didn't take an officer position in the Commandery as I was Master of my Lodge that year. It wasn't until after September when the Commander at the time was expelled and in the vacuum the officers moved up and I jumped into the line at the request of the acting-Commander. From there I moved up the lines of elected officers until I was finally elected last November to serve as Commander.

At the end of this year the members can vote me in again or elect someone else. I have no control over that. After this year is done I do not foresee myself presiding for the next several years.

KSigMason
10-27-2013, 12:13 PM
Religion & freemasonry christianity something to me. Churches infested with your smelly brothers. Ministers have even hinted to me in their handshake, plus all their phony balony Political correctness, Humanism etc they seem to preach these things in sermons more than the Gospels themselves and this is protestants, baptists,methodists etc to be specific not just catholics which i regard as even worse. Infact only one thing worse than secret societies and thats religion any religion, in that respect i have something in common with agnostics.
So Freemasons are not allowed to go to Church?

I don't get why everyone thinks that every awkward handshake is a Masonic grip. I'm completely against political correctness and no Freemasonry has nothing to do with humanism as you must have a belief in a Supreme Being before you're allowed to petition, and in some jurisdictions you must be Christian to join the Lodge. In the American York Rite you must be a Christian to join Knights Templar. I could keep going, but you should get the point.

I don't get why people see secrecy as wrong as it is universally used and there's nothing inherently wrong or immoral about it.