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stompk
05-09-2008, 07:08 AM
The combined moisture from the jet exhaust and the atmosphere will never be enough for the mixture to produce a cloud.

Appleman Chart - Student (http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/resources/activities/appleman_student.html)


Now I am going to debunk the scientists that claim the contrails forming into clouds and gray haze above your heads is normal, jet exhaust polluting our atmosphere.

And I'm going to do it by using a chart, the above website.

The chart is called the Appleman Chart. And it looks like this.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2h7qq9d.jpg


Background: Military planners have been interested in condensation trail (contrail) forecasts since World War II. Contrails can make any aircraft easy to locate by enemy forces, and no amount of modern stealth technology can hide an aircraft if it leaves a persistent contrail in its wake. In 1953, a scientist named H. Appleman published a chart that can be used to determine when a jet airplane would or would not produce a contrail. For many years, the US Air Force Global Weather Center used a similar chart to make contrail forecasts.


Now, the purpose of this thread is to show that PERSISTENT contrails forming into a cloud, is a myth.

Furthmore, I will show you the science. If you see a PERSISTENT contrail, then you can go to this website;
Atmospheric Soundings (http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html)
and on the map, click on the city nearest you, and it will give you the
most recent sounding of the atmosphere.
atmosphere sounding. Satellite Meteorology. Methods for retrieval of atmospheric temperature and humidity profiles.

Now the chart will look like this
(current Denver, CO sounding)


384.0 7538 -33.5 -36.9 71 0.42 237 36 315.0 316.6 315.1
379.4 7620 -34.1 -37.8 69 0.39 235 35 315.3 316.7 315.4
362.8 7925 -36.5 -41.2 62 0.29 235 34 316.2 317.3 316.2
303.4 9144 -45.9 -54.7 36 0.08 235 40 319.5 319.8 319.5
300.0 9220 -46.5 -55.5 35 0.07 235 40 319.7 320.0 319.7


We're only interested in the first 5 columns.

1st column;
is the atmospheric pressure or hPa on the left of the Appleman Chart.

2nd column;
is the metric height.

Most commercial jets fly between 8 and 12 km (26,000 and 39,000 feet, or roughly 350 hPa to 200 hPa).[/ex]
30,000 ft = 9144 m. You can use this (http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm) chart to do the conversion.

3rd column;
is temperature in c. It's roughly about the same as f at that temp.
[quote]
If the atmosphere were warmer than the temperature indicated by the 100% line, a contrail could not form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were 100 percent


4th column;
is dewpoint. This is the point at which vapor will condense into water.

5th column;
Relative Humidity. Very important. According to NASA;
Both the temperature and humidity of the atmosphere help to determine whether a contrail can form. As the relative humidity in the atmosphere increases, the atmosphere is able to supply more moisture into the jet aircraft exhaust plume, and a contrail is more likely to form. The temperature of the atmosphere does not have to be as cold to form contrails at 60% relative humidity compared to 0% relative humidity.
...
Surprisingly, at cold temperatures ice clouds (including contrails) can form and persist at humidities lower than 100%. The red line (dash-double dot line) in the Appleman chart shows at what humidities contrails can persist (usually between 60% and 70% relative humidity). Thus, if the air is moist enough, and colder than (temperature profile is to the left of the red line), then the Appleman chart indicates that persistent contrails can form.

(bold added)

So, what it boils down to, is that on a clear day, it's very, very unlikely that a contrail would form, let alone persist.

And I've already shown that NASA said it is impossible for clouds to form from contrails.

Last but not least.


the USAF found that the forecasts using the Appleman method were correct about 60 to 80 percent of the time. Looking more closely at the data, they found that when no contrails were forecast, the forecast was correct 98 percent of the time! However, when contrails were forecast to occur, the forecast was correct only 25 to 35 percent of the time, and often failed to predict the occurrence of contrails.


Again, the Nasa link is
Appleman Chart - Student (http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/resources/activities/appleman_student.html)

And the satellite sounding site is;
Atmospheric Soundings (http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html)

Thanks.

stompk
05-09-2008, 11:28 AM
How to find out if they are spraying above your head.

There are parameters for a contrail to form.

The temp must be colder than -38C.

The Humidity level must be above 55%

The warmer it is, the more humidity needed
to form a contrail.

I've made a chart using the Appleman Chart,
and the parameter set by NASA

http://i26.tinypic.com/14bi5q9.jpg

I challenge anyone to find a sounding in the atmosphere,
between 8000-11,500 meters that fit the parameters to
for a contrail.
Atmospheric Soundings (http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html)

below 55%, contrails will not form, according to NASA.
above -38C, contrails will not form.

stompk
05-09-2008, 01:29 PM
Since no one has replied, I picked a few cities in North America that represent various temperature and humidity levels, all from today,
@ 30,000 ft / 9144 m

and put them on the chart.

http://i27.tinypic.com/wrmaft.jpg


Pickle Lake, Ontario
286.6 9144 -51.8 -69.2 11

Cold enough, but humidity is way below 55%, no contrails will form under
these conditions.


Santa Domingo
321.7 9144 -31.1 -65.2 2

Not cold enough, only 2% humidity, no contrails.


Gray, Maine
304.3 9144 -43.2 -53.5 31

Barely cold enough, below 55% humidity, so, no contrails.


Tuscon, Arizona
315.7 9144 -33.0 -45.2 28

Temp too low, humidity < 55%, no contrails.


No contrails were observed for RHI < 55%.

None of the soundings show RHI > 72%, despite
the fact that the PIT rawinsonde must have passed
through contrail A on its way to the stratosphere. To
support a persistent contrail, the maximum PIT RHI from
the sonde would need to be increased by 35% or more.

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/conference/Minnis.abs.ARAMS.02.pdf

Increasing 72% by 35% would be 107%, or saturation, to support persistent
contrails.

This is supported by this;


The red line (dash-double dot line) in the Appleman chart shows at what humidities contrails can persist (usually between 60% and 70% relative humidity)

Appleman Chart - Student (http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/resources/activities/appleman_student.html)

NASA is saying that can't really form below 60%
and the other NASA pdf says no contrails were formed
below 55%

Furthermore, I have already shown where they come right and say


The combined moisture from the jet exhaust and the atmosphere will never be enough for the mixture to produce a cloud.


Please, if I have made a mistake in my calculations and charts, could you show me the data that supports your claim otherwise.

All I want is the truth. Show me the numbers to support persistent contrail formation.

Thanks.

KennyWally
05-11-2008, 04:31 AM
Do you think, that this would actually be broadcast on the mass media teevee?

you're kidding, right?

For me, I didn't need no stinking math to tell me what I could see.

But, nice job, FWIW.

They'll only recognize fellow whores, who spin an agenda, truth tellers are not welcome.






Ain't it fun, being a lone voice in the wilderness....

TrutherD
11-11-2009, 08:31 AM
Well done, stompk. You're the reason I registered here. I am hounding my government about chemtrails and wasn't entirely sure about the science of contrail formation. This is an excellent starting point. Thank you. Keep it up. Distribute "Don't talk about the weather (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/10/dont-talk-about-weather-chemtrails.html)" documentary DVDs everywhere you go. :)

albie
11-12-2009, 08:28 AM
Why not post this on a debunker forum like the james randi forum? Then you'll not be preaching to the converted. Oh, but then you'll get opposition! Can't have that. That spoils the fun of being a Fox Mulderoid.

TrutherD
11-12-2009, 04:41 PM
You're a real peach, albie.

albie
11-13-2009, 04:11 AM
You will never prove that contrails carry chemicals by pointing at them and screaming, or in any other way. It's one of those subjects designed to make you look a paranoid nut, like Holocaust denial, or reptilians. Some subjects will just make you look stupid. Way to go. Stick to something like the American foreign policy or don't bother.

TrutherD
11-13-2009, 07:46 AM
albie, Maybe you're confused about the science laid out in stompk's excellent post. It is obvious, based on the chart from NASA that contrails, let alone persistent contrails, cannot form at above -38C or below 55% relative humidity. If the sky is clear, it is impossible for a contrail to form, let alone persist. If you see a trail in the middle of summer at 5000 feet, just above your head it can only be logically assumed that it is not water vapor. I am sure you are capable of searching YouTube for "chemtrails clear sky" or "chemtrails summer". I am not sure, however, that you understand how to read the Appleman Chart still in use by NASA and the USAF, which predicts no contrails to 98% accuracy. Arguing over and demanding independent chemical analysis is moot when you can use basic known science to come to a clear conclusion. It is now painfully obvious there is a spraying infrastructure in place. They can put whatever they want in it and don't have to answer any questions. Does that not concern you?

Why do our kids need to be taught contrail education here (http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/contrails/) or be subliminally programmed here (http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/338/cars1hw3.jpg)?

Please wake up and spread this information. Help stop the NWO in honour of our forefathers and everyone else who has suffered from and fought their tyranny. We have a very good chance. Never before has the truth been so widespread and so accessible.

albie
11-14-2009, 07:52 AM
Why not post this info on a proper debunking site then?

JREF Forum (http://forums.randi.org/forumindex.php)

And see how long it lasts to proper scrutiny.

Like here.

Chemtrail spraying screaching to a halt! Obama mandate?, page 2 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread428388/pg2)

TrutherD
11-14-2009, 11:02 AM
Why do you insist on discrediting and telling others what to do? No-one's stopping you from posting it elsewhere. I smell a paid troll.

stompk
11-14-2009, 11:22 AM
Why do you insist on discrediting and telling others what to do? No-one's stopping you from posting it elsewhere. I smell a paid troll.

Truther, I've got a document coming that's going to open some eyes. Hopefully this week.

USAF (Acadamy) Chemtrails: Chemistry.

Hi ***** - Thanks for checking in! The system I use says that it shipped on 11/09 from Okla City, OK. With no mail delivery yesterday, I am going to hazard a guess that it will be here next week. I hope it arrives in time to be useful for you. We will send an email when its ready.

- ********
Interlibrary Loan

TrutherD
11-14-2009, 01:07 PM
Sounds exciting, stompk. I was wondering if you were still around, since your post was from some time ago. To me the science speaks a lot and I don't need the document, but perhaps you are on to something big. You must have done some excellent detective work and maybe even some social engineering to get where you are and obtain that information.

I still have a question about contrails - maybe you can answer it for me.

In documentaries with interviews with pilots they always say the contrail never lasts more than about a minute in the best conditions. Are indefinite persistent contrails (>1-2 mins) made of ice and water a myth or do they happen? If they happen, I assume these trails would not expand to form clouds as stated to be impossible by NASA... but if the conditions were right, couldn't they blow around a little?

Either way, they are definitely spraying us, considering the evidence of strange patterns, trails starting and stopping, chemtrails vs. contrails in the same sky, unmarked military planes, HEPA filter samples, low-level trails in dry and hot conditions, etc.

I found a fun time lapse of the Eiffel Tower. Can you spot the chemtrails? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTeyCYqPIdI

TrutherD
11-15-2009, 03:51 AM
Documentaries seem to continually reinforce that contrails cannot persist longer than about 1 minute, so I'm going to assume anything much longer is not natural in any condition. This means the appleman chart can be used to predict a maximum contrail of about a minute (max persistence) and indefinite "truly persistent" and spreading contrails are an outright lie. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

stompk
11-15-2009, 10:56 AM
Documentaries seem to continually reinforce that contrails cannot persist longer than about 1 minute, so I'm going to assume anything much longer is not natural in any condition. This means the appleman chart can be used to predict a maximum contrail of about a minute (max persistence) and indefinite "truly persistent" and spreading contrails are an outright lie. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you can to see the truth. One of the first ever. I like you.
I'm glad your on this site. It's a small site, but comes up second if
you search for conspiracy forums on Google.

The Appleman Chart is explaining how "modified contrails" form. It has
nothing to do with "natural" contrail formation. Notice the Appleman chart
says consistent contrails will form in 0% RH. Impossible!

Have you ever seen how small contrails form off of jet fighters wing tips, when they are pulling high g,s? You'll seem them often when they take off from AC carriers.

Contrail formation has nothing to do with cold, but humidity, and pressure.

It's the same concept as clouds forming around mountain ranges. It's because the air is pushed up, when it flows over the mountain. The air is pressurized, creating a denser amount of moisture. That's why it snows in the mountains, not because of temp. The temps are dropped because the air moves faster over the mountains. Wind chill factor. That's why temperature inversions are possible, meaning it's warmer at the top of the mountain than in the valleys. Think about it. The top of the mountain is actually closer to the sun. It's the winds, that keep it colder, allowing the snow to stick around longer.

The short lived contrails are Liquid CO2 for supercooling the atmosphere. The long lived contrails are a concoction of silver-iodide, ammonia, urea, etc. The main reason is weather modification, the secondary being a sickening of the people. But, they do have a solution that will kill, which is being tested in the Ukraine right now.

albie
11-16-2009, 05:58 AM
It seems the appleman chart was made in the 50s and is outdated.

But I am still going to try and debunk it further. Although why I bother is beyond me. The idea that all aircraft are sabotaged to poison people is brilliantly ridiculous. It would just involve too many people, all across the globe, in every country.

Here you go, look. I posted a link to this thread on the James Randi forum. Aren't I kind?

Contrails - Appleman Chart? - JREF Forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5314889#post5314889)

albie
11-16-2009, 06:16 AM
Contrail Science - Chemtrail Pseudoscience Chemtrail Myths (http://contrailscience.com/chemtrail-myths/)

Just for you.

albie
11-16-2009, 07:24 AM
>>The combined moisture from the jet exhaust and the atmosphere will never be enough for the mixture to produce a cloud.

Clearly a line taken out of context. It is not reffering to all contrails but to certain conditions. The chart says contrails do exist in certain conditions. NOT that all contrails are impossible.

albie
11-16-2009, 07:34 AM
Contrails (http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/class/contrail.html)

albie
11-16-2009, 07:41 AM
>>Contrail formation has nothing to do with cold, but humidity, and pressure.

So when I breathe out on a cold day and water vapour forms, that's a hologram? Or is my bad breath a chemtrail designed to keep the population down?

albie
11-16-2009, 07:56 AM
>>the USAF found that the forecasts using the Appleman method were correct about 60 to 80 percent of the time. Looking more closely at the data, they found that when no contrails were forecast, the forecast was correct 98 percent of the time! However, when contrails were forecast to occur, the forecast was correct only 25 to 35 percent of the time, and often failed to predict the occurrence of contrails.

What does this mean exactly? It seems to suggest the chart is inaccurate.

stompk
11-16-2009, 09:10 AM
>>the USAF found that the forecasts using the Appleman method were correct about 60 to 80 percent of the time. Looking more closely at the data, they found that when no contrails were forecast, the forecast was correct 98 percent of the time! However, when contrails were forecast to occur, the forecast was correct only 25 to 35 percent of the time, and often failed to predict the occurrence of contrails.

What does this mean exactly? It seems to suggest the chart is inaccurate.

Your starting to figure that out?

Ask yourselves this question. If you can see your breath at 20f, why does the Appleman Chart say it needs to be at least -45f?

It's not the moisture in your breath, it's CO2.

TrutherD
11-16-2009, 10:46 AM
stompk, There you go again teaching me things. I realize Appleman Chart does not deal with "natural" contrails but aircraft contrails. Although, I haven't really considered natural contrails for quite some time. :)

albie! You decided to join with some semi-rational thoughts and evidence. Congratulations on participating in the forum rather than just using it to baselessly attack others.
It seems the appleman chart was made in the 50s and is outdated.How long did you research? 5 minutes? The USAF and NASA still use it as a reference. It is 98% accurate in predicting NO contrails - so what's your problem? Do you think the laws of physics have changed since the 50's? :D
But I am still going to try and debunk it further. Although why I bother is beyond me.Why you bother is because you apparently care a lot about what we think on this subject. That much is apparent from your constant barrage of immature insults and baseless claims. The least you could do is have a rational conversation with us. Your one and two-line ramblings will have to do.
The idea that all aircraft are sabotaged to poison people is brilliantly ridiculous. It would just involve too many people, all across the globe, in every country.Yeah, 'cause that's never happened before. ie. the Manhattan Project. It's called compartmentalization. Plus they use predictive programming in the media, commercials, TV shows, billboard ads, movies (esp. kids movies), video games and web sites to teach us and our children that persistent and spreading contrails are normal. It's not all aircraft, it's military and/or civilian planes with spray nozzles or fuel additives.
Here you go, look. I posted a link to this thread on the James Randi forum. Aren't I kind?Thanks for the link, but "kind" would be showing that you aren't wasting our time and have done some actual research. You could provide a summary of the points in the link that you think relate to this thread, with due respect paid to what's already been discussed.
The chart says contrails do exist in certain conditions. NOT that all contrails are impossible.Persistent contrails that last longer than about a minute are impossible. Persistent contrails that form clouds or haze is impossible.
So when I breathe out on a cold day and water vapour forms, that's a hologram?Can you make a cloud with your breath or does it dissipate in harmony with the atmosphere? Can you make a persistent breath that lingers in the air longer than a minute? I thought not. stompk also makes an excellent point about seeing your breath in temperatures below the chart being caused by CO2, which is probably scientifically accurate.
What does this mean exactly? It seems to suggest the chart is inaccurate.Not at all. It is more accurate in one direction and it just so happens to be the direction we are focused on. It is an excellent chart for proving that contrails should not form. Whether they form or not, they should never persist longer than about a minute. Perhaps if you know a pilot who flew near the end of WW2 you might ask them about contrails.

You have jumped on your belief without doing any real research of your own and you show little respect for those you converse with. You should be grateful we tolerate your uneducated trollish ways at all.

stompk
11-16-2009, 08:56 PM
Can you make a cloud with your breath or does it dissipate in harmony with the atmosphere? Can you make a persistent breath that lingers in the air longer than a minute? I thought not. stompk also makes an excellent point about seeing your breath in temperatures below the chart being caused by CO2, which is scientifically accurate.


Yes, I think we need to extrapolate on this idea further. Unfortunately, it seems, science turns people off.

It's really one of the keys to folks understanding we are being duped. Patrick Minnis is a shill.

albie
11-17-2009, 06:18 AM
It's not an accurate chart. So why are you using it to prove something? That seems pointless. Why do I not see a CO2 cloud everytime I breath out? Because temperature has something to do with it.

Prove that NASA still use this chart.

I think most of the people on this thread are confused about your findings.

albie
11-17-2009, 06:21 AM
>>Can you make a cloud with your breath or does it dissipate in harmony with the atmosphere? Can you make a persistent breath that lingers in the air longer than a minute? I thought not. stompk also makes an excellent point about seeing your breath in temperatures below the chart being caused by CO2, which is scientifically accurate.


I don't travel at sonic speeds and don't live high up like planes do. Nor do I expel exhaust matter.

Wouldn't chemicals just dissipate anyway?

TrutherD
11-17-2009, 06:39 AM
It's not an accurate chart. So why are you using it to prove something? That seems pointless.
What's pointless is making statements about things we've already covered. It is 98% accurate in predicting NO contrails. Search YouTube for "chemtrails summer", or "chemtrails desert". Find some nice low-altitude trails. It's easy to see it's not cold nor humid enough to match the chart. Plus contrails don't last longer than about a minute in any condition. I don't know why I bother with you, you are an obvious paid troll ignoring what is easy to see with your own eyes.
I don't travel at sonic speeds and don't live high up like planes do. Nor do I expel exhaust matter.
Then why did you compare jet contrails to your breath in the first place?
Wouldn't chemicals just dissipate anyway?
The few contained in normal exhaust, yes. When large amounts of particulate matter are introduced, however, if there's enough humidity a cloud might be able to form. More likely is the "cloud" is just the particulate matter itself. Normal jet exhaust simply cannot create clouds. Clouds form at ground level in dirty air with high humidity. Extremely small particles in the sub-micron range act as condensation nuclei, attracting water vapor. You should check out the excellent documentaries Aerosol Crimes (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/11/aerosol-crimes-chemtrails.html) and Don't Talk About the Weather (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/10/dont-talk-about-weather-chemtrails.html).
Prove that NASA still use this chart.
The chart is from NASA and has been in use since it's creation. It has never been disproven. There is no such thing as "outdated", since the laws of physics do not change. Perhaps you might try exercising your brain: NASA appleman chart - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=NASA+appleman+chart)

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:00 AM
Contrail formation has nothing to do with cold, but humidity, and pressure.


Temperature has everything to do with it. have you ever heard of the term "dew point?"



The short lived contrails are Liquid CO2 for supercooling the atmosphere.

Don't be absurd. Jet engine exhast cannot possibly form liquid CO2.


The long lived contrails are a concoction of silver-iodide, ammonia, urea, etc. The main reason is weather modification, the secondary being a sickening of the people. But, they do have a solution that will kill, which is being tested in the Ukraine right now.

Nonsense.

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:02 AM
Your starting to figure that out?

Ask yourselves this question. If you can see your breath at 20f, why does the Appleman Chart say it needs to be at least -45f?

It's not the moisture in your breath, it's CO2.

Don't be silly. It is not possible for liquid CO2 to form in the atmosphere.

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:04 AM
Persistent contrails that last longer than about a minute are impossible. Persistent contrails that form clouds or haze is impossible.

Why?

At 30,000 feet, contrails consist of ice crystals. Clouds consist of ice crystals. the same processes that allow clouds to persist allow contrails to persist.

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:27 AM
One of the “hot” areas of atmospheric research these days is in the study of the phenomena of ice supersaturation. Ice supersaturation is when the relative humidity with respect to ice in the atmosphere exceeds 100%. Under these conditions, the sky is clear with no clouds.

Cirrus clouds in the upper troposphere have only a loose relation to ice saturation. They do not typically form at saturation and once formed they are not very strongly attracted by the equilibrium state. Thus, there is plenty of ice supersaturated, yet clear air in the upper troposphere.

Google the term ice supersaturation (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=ice+supersaturation&aq=0&oq=ice+supersa&aqi=g1) and you will find hundreds of research papers by scientists from all over the globe studying this phenomena.

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:31 AM
Here is an interesting abstract of a research paper on contrail formation

This study examines how jet aircraft contrails develop precipitation trails, using data collected on 12 May, 1996 during SUCCESS. The DC-8 sampled the precontrail conditions, produced a contrail largely in clear air at -52C, and sampled the contrail and developing trails for over an hour. The environment was highly ice-supersaturated, reaching nearly water saturation in some locations. Inside the contrail core, almost all ice particles remained small (∼ 1 to 10 μm) due to high crystal concentrations (∼ 101 to 102 cm-3) which reduced the vapor density to saturation. Mixing of moist environmental air and vapor-depleted contrail air produced localized regions of supersaturation along the contrail periphery, where crystals grew to several hundred microns at about 0.1 μm s-1. These particles could then fall from the contrail into the vapor-rich, undepleted, supersaturated environment below. As heavier crystals left the contrail, others moved into the regions of ice supersaturation. Precipitation trails developed as this process continued over time.

ETA left the link out:

Growth of ice crystals in a precipitating contrail : SUCCESS, 2 (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2246139)

stompk
11-17-2009, 10:43 AM
Don't be silly. It is not possible for liquid CO2 to form in the atmosphere.


A modeling method for evaluating rain enhancement of cloud seeding with liquid carbon dioxide (hereinafter LC) coolant and silver iodide (AgI) ice nuclei has been developed.

SpringerLink - Book Chapter (http://www.springerlink.com/content/t70k54282p271085/)

Um, did you do any research before you posted, or are you just posting what is written in you government memo?

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Apparently, many times when you think the sky is clear, there really are cirrus clouds, so thin that you cant see them from the ground. These are called subvisual clouds.

Here is an abstract to another scientific paper.
The entire paper can be found here:
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/29/64/99/PDF/acp-8-1689-2008.pdf



Abstract. During the European heat wave summer 2003
with predominant high pressure conditions we performed a
detailed study of upper tropospheric humidity and ice particles
which yielded striking results concerning the occurrence
of ice supersaturated regions (ISSR), cirrus, and contrails.
Our study is based on lidar observations and meteorological
data obtained at Lindenberg/Germany (52.2_ N, 14.1_ E)
as well as the analysis of the European centre for medium
range weather forecast (ECMWF). Cirrus clouds were detected
in 55% of the lidar profiles and a large fraction of
them were subvisible (optical depth <0.03). Thin ice clouds
were particularly ubiquitous in high pressure systems. The
radiosonde data showed that the upper troposphere was very
often supersaturated with respect to ice. Relating the radiosonde
profiles to concurrent lidar observations reveals that
the ISSRs almost always contained ice particles. Persistent
contrails observed with a camera were frequently embedded
in these thin or subvisible cirrus clouds. The ECMWF cloud
parametrisation reproduces the observed cirrus clouds consistently
and a close correlation between the ice water path in
the model and the measured optical depth of cirrus is demonstrated.

Does that help your understanding of the issues at all?

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:49 AM
take a look at this picture of B-17s in WWII.


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/contrails/b17-contrails.jpg

Notice how there are no contrails at all from the lower planes, short contrails from the mid level planes and persistant contrails from the upper level planes.

Were they spraying CO2 back then as well?

Alferd
11-17-2009, 10:51 AM
SpringerLink - Book Chapter (http://www.springerlink.com/content/t70k54282p271085/)

Um, did you do any research before you posted, or are you just posting what is written in you government memo?

We are not talking about cloud seeding, we are talking about contrails.

Contrails form due to combustion exhaust.

Liquid CO2 can not form in combustion exhaust, nor can it form from human exhalations as you claimed.

stompk
11-17-2009, 11:02 AM
We are not talking about cloud seeding, we are talking about contrails.

Contrails form due to combustion exhaust.

Liquid CO2 can not form in combustion exhaust, nor can it form from human exhalations as you claimed.

No, I am talking about Chemtrails. You, are protecting you beloved government. Pathetic fool.


Fortunately the coldest cirrus have the highest ice supersaturation due to the dominance of homogeneous freezing nucleation. Seeding such cirrus with very efficient heterogeneous ice nuclei should produce larger ice crystals due to vapor competition effects, thus increasing OLR and surface cooling. Preliminary estimates of this global net cloud forcing are more negative than 2.8 W m2 and could neutralize the radiative forcing due to a CO2 doubling (3.7 W m2). A potential delivery mechanism for the seeding material is already in place: the airline industry.

Modification of cirrus clouds to reduce global warming (http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1748-9326/4/4/045102/erl9_4_045102.html)

Translation. They have been using the airline industry for a long time.

Alferd
11-17-2009, 11:02 AM
Abstract:


Results of large-eddy simulations of the development of young persistent ice contrails are presented, concentrating on the interactions between the aircraft wake dynamics and the ice cloud evolution over ages from a few seconds to http://ams.allenpress.com/charent/iso_characters_mixed/lowercase/sim.gif30 min. The 3D unsteady evolution of the dispersing engine exhausts, trailing vortex pair interaction and breakup, and subsequent BruntVisl oscillations of the older wake plume are modeled in detail in high-resolution simulations, coupled with a bulk microphysics model for the contrail ice development. The simulations confirm that the early wake dynamics can have a strong influence on the properties of persistent contrails even at late times. The vortex dynamics are the primary determinant of the vertical extent of the contrail (until precipitation becomes significant); and this together with the local wind shear largely determines the horizontal extent. The ice density, ice crystal number density, and a conserved exhaust tracer all develop and disperse in different fashions from each other. The total ice crystal number can be significantly reduced due to adiabatic compression resulting from the downward motion of the vortex system, even for ambient conditions that are substantially supersaturated with respect to ice. The fraction of the initial ice crystals surviving, their spatial distribution, and the ice mass distribution are all sensitive to the aircraft type, ambient humidity, assumed initial ice crystal number, and ambient turbulence conditions. There is a significant range of conditions for which a smaller transport such as a B737 produces as significant a persistent contrail as a larger transport such as a B747, even though the latter consumes almost five times as much fuel. The difficulties involved in trying to minimize persistent contrail production are discussed.

The whole paper:
AMS Online Journals - The Effects of Aircraft Wake Dynamics on Contrail Development (http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0469(2001)058%3C0390%3ATEOAWD%3E2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1)

an interesting study, don't you think?

Note that it doesn't mention liquid CO2 at all. How could they have left this out?

Alferd
11-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Translation. They have been using the airline industry for a long time.


Well based on that photo from WWII, it would be a long time indeed. :p

stompk
11-17-2009, 11:06 AM
This seeding modified the mid and low level temperature profiles, glaciated the low level clouds, and produced light snow for several hours in the foothills and northwest piedmont. Snowfall amounts were not large in RAH's CWFA, ranging from to 1 inch in the northwest piedmont, and were overshadowed by the larger scale icing event which evolved shortly thereafter. It is clear, however, that the seeder-feeder mechanism alone could easily produce an "advisory-scale" event, consisting of either frozen or freezing precipitation.
...
The feeder-seeder mechanism can be diagnosed by carefully examining the entire depth of the soundings. Very small changes in the vertical temperature profile can profoundly affect the p-type, and models often cannot resolve these details

Seeder - Feeder Mechanism during the February 12, 2001 (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nwsfo/storage/cases/20010212/sf021201/seedandfeed.htm)

stompk
11-17-2009, 11:07 AM
Well based on that photo from WWII, it would be a long time indeed. :p

Show me an older picture of a civilian aircraft leaving "contrails"

The picture you showed is a WWII spraying operation.

Alferd
11-17-2009, 11:42 AM
The picture you showed is a WWII spraying operation.


LOL

Ok, clearly you are either a very funny troll or you are completely unglued.

Bye now.

stompk
11-17-2009, 12:54 PM
LOL

Ok, clearly you are either a very funny troll or you are completely unglued.

Bye now.

Buh Bye!


The US Air Force has had a long history of aerial applications of pesticides to fulfill a variety of missions, the most important being the protection of troops through the minimization of arthropod vectors capable of disease transmission. Beginning in World War II, aerial application of pesticides by the military has effectively controlled vector and nuisance pest populations in a variety of environments.
...
The Air Force Aerial Spray Unit (AFASU) traces its history back to early aerial applications of DDT during the later stages of World War II. After the end of the war, the Special DDT Flight was created in 1946, but was soon transformed to the Special Aerial Spray Flight (SASF) in 1947 when the Air Force became a separate armed service.6 Eventually, as US military operations in Vietnam were reduced in the early 1970s, active duty Air Force assets were moved to reserve status, including spray planes returning from Operation Ranch Hand defoliation flights in Vietnam.7 After more than 25 years at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia, the SASF was transferred from the active Air Force to the Air Force Reserve in 1973.
...
As mentioned earlier, a modular aerial spray system (MASS) was developed for use with the C-130H airplane. The MASS, which has a maximum 2,000gallon capacity for liquid materials, can be rolled on or off the airplane in approximately Table 1. Nonmilitary emergency deployments by the one-half hour. Functional in a variety of AFASU after transition to the US Air Force Reserve. configurations, the MASS is useful for such Year Location Health Threat Coverage applications as ultra low volume adult (acres) mosquito sprays (adulticiding), mosquito liquid larvicide sprays, herbicide applications, 1973 Panama Equine encephalitis 37,600 and oil dispersants for emergency cleanup of 1975 Guam Dengue fever 157,530 oil spills.
1978 1983 1985 Azores Japanese beetles 8,700 Minnesota Idaho Equine encephalitis Grasshoppers 525,000 718,100

Ultra low volume sprays create an aerosol cloud of small discrete droplets that drift through the air. This type of application is 1987 Puerto Rico Dengue fever 177,000 referred to as a space spray since the goal is to 1989 South Carolina Hurricane Hugo 855,500 drift droplets through a particular space mosquito control resulting in contact with flying insects.5 For 1992 Florida Hurricane Andrew 279,170 this reason, the flight period of the target pests mosquito control is one of the most important planning factors 1999 North Carolina, Hurricane Floyd 1,700,000 for missions using the ultra low volume Virginia mosquito control configuration to control mosquitoes and nuisance flies.8 Current methodologies for 2005 Louisiana, Hurricanes Katrina and 2,880,000 Texas Rita mosquito control AFASU mosquito adulticiding use the MASS with booms placed through the fuselage doors. Those booms are fitted with flat fan nozzles The AFASU trains for a primary wartime mission of positioned perpendicular to the slipstream of the protecting deployed troops from arthropod-borne aircraft for maximum shear and atomization of the illness by participating in ongoing mosquito control sprayed liquid.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/34511712/The-US-Air-Force-Aerial-Spray-Unit-A-History-of-Large-Area-Disease-Vector-Control-Operations-WWII-Through-Katrina

LOL indeed.

TrutherD
11-17-2009, 03:13 PM
Looks like the trolls are attracted to us, stompk! We must be making progress! Great job!

Where do I begin?

The short lived contrails are Liquid CO2 for supercooling the atmosphere. Don't be absurd. Jet engine exhast cannot possibly form liquid CO2.
Did he say jet exhaust? He said "for" indicating something added purposely such as a fuel additive or a spray. Personally I have not seen such evidence, but I wouldn't discount it before investigating.
It's not the moisture in your breath, it's CO2. Don't be silly. It is not possible for liquid CO2 to form in the atmosphere.
CO2 comes out of your body. Why would it need to form in the atmosphere? Or do you mean form a cloud in the atmosphere?
At 30,000 feet, contrails consist of ice crystals. Clouds consist of ice crystals. the same processes that allow clouds to persist allow contrails to persist.
Clouds and contrails are completely different. I covered this in my last post. Clouds form at ground level. They need DIRTY air with lots of sub-micron particles to act as condensation nuclei and high humidity in the range of 60-70%. Unmodified jet exhaust should not contain enough particulate matter to form a cloud and it would be impossible in low-humidity environments where chemtrails are often spotted. Simple enough for you?
One of the hot areas of atmospheric research these days ...
Please stay on topic.
Notice how there are no contrails at all from the lower planes, short contrails from the mid level planes and persistant contrails from the upper level planes.
Can you provide an example that can't be explained by elevation differences? Persistent = max about a minute. Contrails do not form clouds.

I've distributed 300 copies of the Don't Talk About the Weather (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/10/dont-talk-about-weather-chemtrails.html) DVD and am going for 1000! I'm also commenting around the net wherever I notice chemtrails. They are going to need a LOT more trolls soon! :D

TrutherD
11-17-2009, 08:36 PM
More spraying today... and I caught a segmented trail. Pretty obvious what's going on here.

YouTube - Chemtrails Maple Ridge Pitt Meadows BC Nov 17 2009

albie
11-18-2009, 05:54 AM
I still don't get how using an inaccurate chart helps you.

And isn't cold breath technically a liquid when it meets the air? Like a cloud? Hence that would be liquid CO2 what you breath out. Wouldn't that require extreme cold to produce?

The white we see is the water vapour. The point being that temperature is connected to it forming. Hence contrails. Hot engine air and cold air of the sky= vapour.

Anyone who thinks you breath out visible CO2 would have to be living in another world.

In fact it seems you need extreme PRESSURE to create liquid CO2.

Creating Liquid Carbon Dioxide (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03269.htm)

Extreme cold just produces solid CO2. Ice.

So our lungs must be under extreme pressure to produce liquid CO2.

50-70 times our atmospheric pressure in fact. Amazing.

albie
11-18-2009, 06:10 AM
>>CO2 comes out of your body. Why would it need to form in the atmosphere? Or do you mean form a cloud in the atmosphere?

Stomp said that what you see when you breath out on a cold day is CO2.

You are now arguing AGAINST him. :))))

albie
11-18-2009, 06:15 AM
Contrail Science - Chemtrail Pseudoscience Pre WWII Contrails (http://contrailscience.com/pre-wwii-contrails/)

albie
11-18-2009, 06:36 AM
JazzRoc versus “Chemtrails” (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/)

albie
11-18-2009, 06:55 AM
>>Clouds and contrails are completely different. I covered this in my last post. Clouds form at ground level. They need DIRTY air with lots of sub-micron particles to act as condensation nuclei and high humidity in the range of 60-70%. Unmodified jet exhaust should not contain enough particulate matter to form a cloud and it would be impossible in low-humidity environments where chemtrails are often spotted. Simple enough for you?


Where is the science to back this up located?

Might it be that clouds need particles only at ground level? And that contrails in the upper atmosphere can form without them because of other factors? the cold the thinness of the air?


>> it would be impossible in low-humidity environments where chemtrails are often spotted

Low humid environments ? Such as? And are you using the Appleman chart to prove this? A chart you say is inaccurate?

albie
11-18-2009, 07:09 AM
>>Jet engines also emit the usual things engines emit: carbon dioxide, smoke, and small amounts of unburnt hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide and small amounts of other things.

Contrail Science - Chemtrail Pseudoscience Chemical Analysis of Contrails (http://contrailscience.com/chemical-analysis-of-contrails/)


Having said that, the jet engine PRODUCES the water vapor itself. The cold of the air freezes it. What you need to do is describe why they wouldn't persist for long periods. The present view is that the surrounding air needs to be quite humid. You claim contrails have come about in none humid areas. Proof?

albie
11-18-2009, 07:18 AM
>>Contrails consist ofice particles that form or nucleate around the small
soot or aerosol particles in the exhaust hases. The contrails are
formed when the relative humidity increases because of the mixing of
warm and moist exhaust gas with colder and less humid ambient air of the
atmosphere. Contrails become visible roughly about a wingspan distance
behind the aircraft. Contrails can be formed by propeller or jet
turbine powered aircraft. (WALTER M. WASHABAUGH, Colonel, USAF
Chief, Congressional Inquiry Division
Office of Legislative Liason)


CHEMTRAILS - CONTRAILS (http://www.carnicom.com/af3.htm)

Prove that there isn't enough matter in jet exhaust to form these contrails.

Alferd
11-18-2009, 07:44 AM
are you familiar with the concept of ice supersaturation?

Do you understand the difference between relative humidity with respect to water as opposed to relative humidity with respect to ice?

Alferd
11-18-2009, 08:19 AM
Clouds and contrails are completely different. I covered this in my last post. Clouds form at ground level. They need DIRTY air with lots of sub-micron particles to act as condensation nuclei and high humidity in the range of 60-70%.

Wrong. Cirrus clouds form in the upper troposphere.

Unmodified jet exhaust should not contain enough particulate matter to form a cloud and it would be impossible in low-humidity environments where chemtrails are often spotted.

And what is the basis of your claim that the upper troposphere is a low-humidity environment? (hint: it's that pesky ice supersaturation isue again)

Once ice crystals start to form in a contrail stream, they will grow untill they splinter and fracture. In this manner, the crystals propagate and multiply.

stompk
11-18-2009, 09:18 AM
More spraying today... and I caught a segmented trail. Pretty obvious what's going on here.

YouTube - Chemtrails Maple Ridge Pitt Meadows BC Nov 17 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUGsDjnFidA)

Nice work TrutherD. You'll still get the government funded morons posting "don't worry, it's just a binary biological warfare agent, designed to take down the immune system, uh, I mean, it's just water vapor, move along"

Hell has plenty of room boys.

Alferd
11-18-2009, 11:44 AM
are you familiar with the concept of ice supersaturation?

Do you understand the difference between relative humidity with respect to water as opposed to relative humidity with respect to ice?


Feel free to answer these questions also, TrutherD, since Stompk seems unable to do so.

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Yawn. These trolls are pathetic. Have a nice day, stompk.

Alferd
11-18-2009, 01:28 PM
Prove that there isn't enough matter in jet exhaust to form these contrails.


They won't Albie. They have no use for science and logic. They have FAITH.

FAITH allows them to ignore science and logic and concentrate on their warped worldview. Oh, deep down, they know that they are wrong, but all that little bit of subconscious reality does is cause them to cling harder and harder to their faith.

You'd have better luck getting the Pope to say a black mass than getting a dyed in the wool chemmie to admit that contrails are normal phenomena.

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 02:30 PM
I do have faith that those who read this thread will see through albie and Alferd's attempt to distract from the truth, which will prevail. They cannot combat the truth, they can only distract and argue. The science is clear.

1. Contrails cannot form outside of the range of the Appleman Chart, to 98% accuracy. And even when the chart predicts them they are only 25% likely to appear at all. That means it must be at least -40C with 55%+ humidity for contrails to form, or colder where less humidity is required (optimal is very cold very dry).

2. Contrails do not contain enough particulate matter to act as condensation nuclei to attract water vapour and produce clouds. If there was enough sub-micronic particulate matter, a humidity of greater than 70% is required.

3. Contrails cannot persist longer than about a minute. Without a large amount of particulate matter they dissipate and achieve balance with the atmosphere, much like your breath. They do not "spread" or form long-lasting clouds or haze.

4. Trolls have a habit of ignoring eye-witness recordings of chemtrails in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUGsDjnFidA

Always, always, ALWAYS do your own research. Never discount a theory before investigating it thoroughly for yourself. Mainstream media tells you what to think. Start thinking critically for yourself again, weighing evidence and science from both sides, identifying paid govt. trolls, etc. and you will find the real truth.

Seek independent media such as:

Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/category/featured-stories/)
The Jane Burgermeister website - investigating the swine flu*pandemic (http://theflucase.com)
GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization (http://globalresearch.ca)
zero hedge | on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero (http://www.zerohedge.com/)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Articles on these sites often thoroughly cite sources from scientists to local papers. They also are far more likely to allow comments with little to no censorship, unlike mainstream media. Try telling someone they can cure a cold with low % hydrogen peroxide nasal spray and a little oil of oregano (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/10/they-control-your-health.html) on CNN.COM. Ha! IF they even ALLOWED comments (they don't), it would be removed, because mainstream media is owned by the same secret groups who work hand-in-hand with their partners in government and corporations to sell us ineffective drugs and treatments and oppress our health. These people have gained their power and control by exploiting good men and women around the world for centuries. They must be stopped!

I am going to continue distributing DVDs until I reach my goal of 1000, then will likely sub-contract to a larger company and continue my work. I will be filming chemtrails whenever I can, and will be posting signs all around telling people to search YouTube for chemtrails and view the documentaries on my site.

Alferd
11-18-2009, 02:44 PM
So, are you saying that ice supersaturated regions do not exist?

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 02:50 PM
So, are you saying that ice supersaturated regions do not exist?
Without even looking at the science, I'd be willing to bet they don't happen in the middle of summer at low altitude in clear sky where chemtrails are often spotted and hence are completely irrelevant.

PS:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2815320198655156407

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxNeoXkL0mM

Alferd
11-18-2009, 02:57 PM
even in the summer, it gets down to -40 degrees at the altitude that most comercial jets fly. What evidence do you have regarding the altitudes of observed contrails?

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 03:00 PM
even in the summer, it gets down to -40 degrees at the altitude that most comercial jets fly. What evidence do you have regarding the altitudes of observed contrails?
Did you forget about the humidity and the fact that contrails do not persist longer than a minute in the best conditions? What about the fact that spraying is often caught beneath low-level clouds at far below "flight altitude". Your argument is laughable. I honestly don't care if I convince you of anything -- In fact, I'm sure it's impossible considering your obvious line of work.

Alferd
11-18-2009, 03:01 PM
Even in the summer ice supersaturated reions form.

http://www.pa.op.dlr.de/issr/Cha3.html

granted, they are thicker in the winter, but they still exist in the summer.

Alferd
11-18-2009, 03:14 PM
Did you forget about the humidity .

Do you understand what the word "supersaturation" means?

it means that the relative humidity is GREATER THAN 100%.

Do you understand that there is a significant difference between relative humidity with respect to water and relative humidity with respect to ice?

Alferd
11-18-2009, 03:15 PM
What about the fact that spraying is often caught beneath low-level clouds at far below "flight altitude".

Oh. B.S.

I'm calling you out on this. B.S. pure and simple.

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 03:18 PM
You appear to be incapable of looking at tens of thousands of eye-witness accounts found around the net and in extensive documentaries (Top of this page). Trails starting and stopping, forming tell-tale patterns, government silence and refusal to identify samples, media blackout, etc etc. All you have to do is look up. Where there was once blue sky there is now a white haze. Hundreds of respected journalists, researchers, scientists, veterans and pilots are claiming something is wrong. Only a fool would believe this decade-old phenomenon that happens in all temperatures at all altitudes in all humidity levels is caused solely by ice supersaturation, IF contrails can even form clouds in those conditions at all (wouldn't it still need more particulate matter to act as condensation nuclei to attract water vapour?). Your point is irrelevant considering the ample evidence showing there is far more to it.

stompk
11-18-2009, 04:16 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/16j3knm.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/6pnpko.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/25sya1x.jpg

Document include section on barium flouride, hydrogen cyanide, and lithium phosphate.

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 04:41 PM
Looks good, stompk. Now what? Contact a high-profile freedom-loving lawyer? You should make copies... Post it everywhere around the net, from an anonymous wifi or tor anonymized browser. Or just give it to several people you think you can trust... Just in case

stompk
11-18-2009, 05:07 PM
Looks good, stompk. Now what? Contact a high-profile freedom-loving lawyer? You should make copies... Post it everywhere around the net, from an anonymous wifi or tor anonymized browser. Or just give it to several people you think you can trust... Just in case

Truther, I plan to make this into pdf. Much of the document is boring, with exercises. But much of it is very important to those of us who understand the potential environmental catastrophic consequences of the US Air Force "Owning the Weather". I used up a roll of nickels making copies at the library today.

It's very technical, and won't appeal to those who need pictures of planes making chemtrails, but yes, it has legal potential. Once I have a good copy, I will distribute it freely to all.

http://i48.tinypic.com/30uqn7q.jpg

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 05:31 PM
Excellent, stompk. I would suggest maybe making two copies, one as it came originally and one with just the good stuff, but that might take a lot of nickels... and there could be some personal information you'd prefer to remove. You need to find someone with a scanner or visit the local office supply store to get a bulk rate. :D Thanks for your great work. Chemtrails are being exposed more and more every day thanks to people like you who devote their time and money to exposing the truth.

The middle-class are the revolutionaries here. People in Africa starving and suffering from inexpensive-to-cure disease, those who have children they struggle to feed and care for, those who can't find work and those who have lost their homes in the engineered housing crash simply do not have the resources to spread this information and expose the secret groups that cause all of our problems. If anyone has any time or money to volunteer, exposing chemtrails and the NWO behind them is the most noble and most important cause of all. They cause the wars. They cause the hunger. They cause the economic booms and busts and profit from them. They charge our government interest to create our own money. It is impossible to pay it back because that money does not exist! The end result is enslavement! All the money in the hands of a few. They rig stock markets and profit from poor health care, pandemics and terrorist attacks (which they create!). They allow and encourage toxins in our food and water. They manipulate our minds through the media causing us to be passive, superficial, shallow, depressed, anxious, unquestioning and resistant to truth no matter how much evidence is presented. They condition us subliminally to accept big changes and horrendous events. (This technique is proven to completely bypass reason, logic and reaction.) They are above the law, operating by stealth through others, surrounded in red tape, untouchable through any mainstream channel (they own them all and buy up local publications when they operate). They cause the weather, purposely devastating parts of the world in attempts to cull the population, destroy self-sustainable farming and force us into more manageable bigger cities. They perform biological experiments and attacks on us whenever they feel like it with chemtrails. Hell, they even bounce artificial ULF/ELF energy off the atmosphere to manipulate huge areas using frequencies. (This activity can be detected!) They've gone way too far and do not deserve to enslave the world.

It's time to wake up, people! Everybody needs to be aware of this. Humanity needs you to make an effort to spread this information. Your country needs you to stop them from destroying it. Freedom needs you to stop innocent people from being abused. We have to take a stand or suffer the consequence of a scientific totalitarian dictatorship.

You've got to become informed and fearless. You've got to get MAD. YELL it out the window: I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew

TrutherD
11-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Check out this Trail Research Report (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml)

albie
11-19-2009, 05:04 AM
Still waiting for my questions to be answered.

1 Prove there isn't enough particle material in jet exhaust to form vapor trails.

2 Why are you using the Appleman chart when you admit it is inaccurate?

And what those documents prove I do not know. No one is saying spraying chemicals isn't possible. We are saying you have no evidence that vapor trails ARE chemtrails.

albie
11-19-2009, 05:09 AM
I suppose the final evidence of your view is that you post your theories on a conspiracy site and not a debunking site. Presumably you are too frightened to. Better to preach to people like trutherd who are basically cheerleaders for bs.

TrutherD = Truth herd. HERD. Hidden words in your name, truther? must be an agent.

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 08:53 AM
stompk:
"Now I am going to debunk the scientists that claim the contrails forming into clouds and gray haze above your heads is normal, jet exhaust
polluting our atmosphere by using the Appleman Chart."
Not a good idea. It's an old rule of thumb which predicts negatives reliably but almost never predicts positives - OK for pilots who wish to avoid making persistent contrails, but USELESS for predicting them.

"Atmospheric Soundings - on the map, click on the city nearest you, and it will give you the most recent sounding of the atmosphere."
Trouble is, such atmospheric soundings are notoriously unreliable. The barometric ports on the instruments ICE UP, which distorts the readings with the local presence of the solid phase of water which simply won't go away easily. You can't HEAT the port without ruining the function. The ONLY process that works reliably is LASER INTERFEROMETRY which isn't balloon-portable.

(Quoting) "If the atmosphere were warmer than the temperature indicated by the 100% line, a contrail could not form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were 100 percent"
This simply ISN'T TRUE. Contrails CAN form in warmer conditions, by a different mechanism. They are known as "AERODYNAMIC CONTRAILS" and may be distinguished by the odd sight of the WING forming a trail while the engines DON'T. It is also possible to see BOTH types at the same time, although this is frequently a more transitory event caused by interlayer transition. I say "interlayer" because the stratosphere, which is where MOST of these events take place, is LAYERED.

"on a clear day, it's very, very unlikely that a contrail would form, let alone persist"
Is TOTALLY wrong. The stratosphere, no matter how wet it is, is clear ALL THE TIME. Cirrus (ice crystal) clouds that may populate it somewhat, are ALWAYS in discrete thin layers of their own, which are (obviously) SATURATED. Otherwise they would sublime into water vapor, wouldn't they?

"And I've already shown that NASA said it is impossible for clouds to form from contrails"
No you have NOT. In fact I can produce a NASA research paper (one of MANY, by the way) which DEMONSTRATES that contrails ARE cirrus clouds.

"None of the soundings show RHI > 72%, despite the fact that the PIT rawinsonde must have passed through contrail A on its way to the stratosphere. To support a persistent contrail, the maximum PIT RHI from the sonde would need to be increased by 35% or more."
Is an interesting quote which makes my point that humidity instrumentation works very badly.

"Please, if I have made a mistake in my calculations and charts, could you show me the data that supports your claim otherwise. All I want is the truth. Show me the numbers to support persistent contrail formation."
Hmm. Cleft stick. Inaccurate instrumentation doesn't help me either.
The best I can do is to ask that you read and understand a relevant link I when I give it you very carefully. It provides VERY ACCURATE DATA and CONCLUSIVE FINDINGS which prove your proposition to be ENTIRELY WRONG.
Before I do, I must tell you that you have already MISSED TWO OPPORTUNITIES to read this for yourself.

"Contrail formation has nothing to do with cold, but humidity, and pressure."
Wrong again. It has ONLY to do with COLD and HUMIDITY, and NOTHING at all to do with pressure. Contrails form at SEA LEVEL at the poles.

"It's the same concept as clouds forming around mountain ranges. It's because the air is pushed up, when it flows over the mountain. The air is pressurized, creating a denser amount of moisture. That's why it snows in the mountains, not because of temp."
Entirely WRONG. When air rises, even an inch, its pressure FALLS. As soon as the pressure of ANY GAS is reduced, its temperature DROPS. You MUST have noticed the OPPOSITE effect when you pumped up a bicycle tyre, surely? What you appear to know nothing about is ADIABATIC LAPSE RATE. Look it up.

"The temps are dropped because the air moves faster over the mountains. Wind chill factor. That's why temperature inversions are possible, meaning it's warmer at the top of the mountain than in the valleys. Think about it. The top of the mountain is actually closer to the sun. It's the winds, that keep it colder, allowing the snow to stick around longer."
This is WRONG from beginning to end. So wrong that I'm going to have to leave it alone. Didn't you do Physics at school?

"The short lived contrails are Liquid CO2 for supercooling the atmosphere."
Liquid CO2 doesn't exist at all until its pressure is RAISED to 75 psi (5.1 atmospheres). Haven't you seen DRY ICE? Didn't you notice it didn't melt, but SUBLIMED from SOLID to GAS?
And, by the way, this is EXACTLY the way contrail or cirrus ICE behaves at stratospheric temperatures and pressures. There is NEVER any liquid water in the stratosphere - with the exception of the phenomenon of SUPERCOOLING (OF WATER - NOT THE ATMOSPHERE), which is way, way over your head at this stage. We might deal with that at a later date.

"The long lived contrails are a concoction of silver-iodide, ammonia, urea, etc"
Laughable.
Silver iodide is dispersed as a SMOKE from light aircraft beneath cumulus clouds at 5000 feet to seed water droplets.
Ammonia would BURN in the turbofan to NITROGEN and WATER.
Urea is a possible - it might be discharged from the toilet sump as it's a constituent of pee.

"The main reason is weather modification, the secondary being a sickening of the people. But, they do have a solution that will kill, which is being tested in the Ukraine right now."
Evidence, please.

"If you can see your breath at 20f, why does the Appleman Chart say it needs to be at least -45f?"
When you see your breath at 20 F, you are seeing droplets of condensed water. The Appleman chart doesn't say what you say it says.

"It's not the moisture in your breath, it's CO2."
See my notes above. You're entirely wrong here. Consistently!

"Patrick Minnis is a shill."
Tsk, tsk.
DR. PATRICK MINNIS, Climate Sciences Branch, NASA Langley Research Center, Mail Stop 420, Hampton, VA 23681.
Born in Shawnee, Oklahoma. Raised in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma graduating from Casady School in 1968.
1991 – Ph.D., University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT, Meteorology 1978 – M.S., Colorado State University, Ft. Collins, CO, Atmospheric Science 1972 – B.E., Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN, Materials Science & Metallurgical Engineering, Senior Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Science Directorate,
1981-1986, Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Materials Application and Technology Division,
1977-1981, Research Engineer, Kentron International,
1972-1975, Product Engineer, Ferro Fiberglass.

"Um, did you do any research before you posted, or are you just posting what is written in your government memo?"
"No, I am talking about Chemtrails. You, are protecting you beloved government. Pathetic fool."
"You'll still get the government funded morons posting "don't worry, it's just a binary biological warfare agent, designed to take down the immune system, uh, I mean, it's just water vapor, move along". Hell has plenty of room boys."
THAT is "trolling".

"'Modification of cirrus clouds to reduce global warming' - Translation. They have been using the airline industry for a long time."
Funny, I though I saw the word "potential". Now, to me, that suggests it's an IDEA. How can you possibly construe an idea as ACTION? If "they" were actually doing it, WHY would ANYONE propose it? It's like suggesting we should use things called "cars" on things called "roads"!

"Seeder - Feeder Mechanism during the February 12, 2001"
Was an account of a natural event. Did it confuse you into believing it was man-made?

"Show me an older picture of a civilian aircraft leaving "contrails". The picture you showed is a WWII spraying operation."
I agree with ALBERD here. They are B17 Flying Fortresses on their way to bombing Northern Germany in 1943. The photograph is well-documented with accounts of the actual raid and many accompanying photographs.
It's totally ridiculous to suggest these BOMBERS are spraying mosquitos at ZERO feet.

"Document includes section on barium flouride, hydrogen cyanide, and lithium phosphate."
But what is the document? It appears to be a chemical theory examination with laboratory work. Not some "spraying campaign". It is too incomplete to have much relevance.
It is also the earliest known use of the word "chemtrail" I have seen, and thus may not have had the current connotation.
Is the first page part of the rest?
The materials mentioned cannot pass THROUGH turbofans without damaging them.

Your proposition is completely wrong. I should explain that science BEGINS with a set of fundamental principles which must be followed if you wish to remain in the realm of science.
The first principle you must follow is that of NOT bringing personal bias and preconceptions to the table. You've broken that, and your science is therefore broken.
That will do for now. Read this. I know it will exceed your understanding, but everyone needs to make a humble start when they are ignorant of a subject. Ask, and I shall try to answer.

“Contrails to Cirrus—Morphology, Microphysics, and Radiative Properties”:
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf

And here's some further reading:

“Contrail Formation and Persistence”
contrail.html (http://students.ou.edu/J/Thomas.A.Jones-1/contrail.html)
“Long lasting contrails like the ones observed usually occur in parts of the sky that have preexisting patches of cirrus clouds. Since the cirrus clouds are formed of ice crystals like the contrails, cirrus clouds in a region of the sky suggests supersaturation with respect to ice and sufficient heterogeneous nuclei for ice crystals to form. GOES-8 satellite photographs taken at approximately at the same time as the contrails were present show significant cirrus clouds around the Norman area providing the condition necessary for contrail persistence.”

S J Moss (1999). The Testing and Verification of Contrail Forecasts using Pilot Observations from Aircraft. Meteorological Applications, 6 , pp 193-200
The testing and verification of contrail forecasts using pilot observations from (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1999MeApp...6..193M)
“Recent research has shown that old forecasting techniques may not be wholly applicable to modern aircraft that now use more efficient engines. In order to compare the performance of both the old and new forecasting techniques a validation trial was carried out over a nine-month period in which RAF pilots reported when and where contrails did and did not occur.”

Wakes of War: Contrails and the Rise of Air Power, 1918-1945 Part II—The Air War over Europe, 1939-1945
Wakes of war: contrails and the rise of air power, 1918-1945 Part II—the air war over Europe, 1939-1945 | Air Power History | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3101/is_/ai_n29372921)
“It is easy to see that, if the air is so cold that it cannot hold much water as vapor, the water in the exhaust may be sufficient, when added to the moisture already in the atmosphere, to raise the humidity in the turbulent wake to or beyond the saturation value. If this condition exists, some of the water vapor will condense and a visible trail will form.”

A Laboratory Study of Contrails
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0469/15/2/pdf/i1520-0469-15-2-149.pdf
“The existence of supercooled water at temperatures significantly colder than -40C is not a generally-accepted fact, but has been suspected by theorists for some time. Fig. 5 demonstrates that such supercooling of contrail condensate, whatever its purity, is possible.”

Contrail Observations over Southern and Eastern Asia in NOAA/AVHRR Data and Comparisons to Contrail Simulations in a GCM

Contrail Observations over Southern and Eastern Asia in NOAA/AVHRR Data and Comparisons to Contrail Simulations in a GCM - International Journal of Remote Sensing (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a778783829~db=all)
“400 NOAA-14 satellite scenes from four months of the year 1998 were analysed. Both regions show sufficient air traffic to produce an observable amount of contrails. Thus we are able to measure for the first time contrail frequencies in the tropics and compare it to a nearby mid latitudinal region. The annual average of the daily mean contrail cloud coverage is 0.13% for the Thailand region and about 0.25% for the Japan region. For both regions the contrail cover is largest during spring. The daily cycle shows surprisingly high contrail coverage during night in spite of lower air traffic densities during night time.”

Proceedings of the Aircraft Research Association
http://www.greenerbydesign.org.uk/resources/2003_conference/The_Technology_Challenge.pdf
“Persistent contrails, which in time degenerate into cirrus cloud, only form in air which is saturated with respect to ice and the conditions for their formation and persistence are reasonably well understood. There’s no prospect of a technological fix for that. If you fly through an ice-saturated region in the atmosphere, you’ll produce a persistent contrail.”

EFFECTS OF AIRCRAFT WAKE DYNAMICS ON CONTRAIL DEVELOPMENT
Atmospheric Turbulence Research at WVU (http://eiger.mae.wvu.edu/AEAP99.html)
CONCLUSIONS
1. Generally contrail ice in near equilibrium with ice mass proportional to contrail volume (except for the rapidly falling vortices early, and precipitation regions later).
2. Contrail volume largely determined by vortex dynamics (until ~ 4 min.) and Brunt-Vaisala oscillations (until ~ 20 min.).
3. Passive tracer, ice mass and ice number density distributions differ (strong dependence on RH ice ).
4. Heating due to adiabatic compression of falling vortex system can lead to significant ice crystal number depletion. (depending on RH ice , EI ice# , aircraft type).
5. Strong species fluctuations can have a significant impact on measured chemistry [e.g. HO2 /OH] in the aircraft wake.

JazzRoc versus “Chemtrails” (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com)

Contrail Science - Chemtrail Pseudoscience (http://contrailscience.com)

BOTH these sites refer to the "Contrails to Cirrus" paper in their side menus, and BOTH have been offered you as links on this thread... they say "There's NONE so blind as those that don't wish to see"...

stompk
11-19-2009, 09:08 AM
Wow, JazzRoc, a government funded shill, signed up just to post in this thread.

Must be getting too much attention, eh. What a putz.

Alferd
11-19-2009, 10:17 AM
Stompk, you are going to have to come up with a better response than that if you want this two-bit ATS knockoff site to grow.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 12:37 PM
We ROCK, stompk! Look at all the attention we are getting. It's good, because every page we argue with the trolls is one more page for the search engines! :D

1 Prove there isn't enough particle material in jet exhaust to form vapor trails.
Prove there is. NASA says jet exhaust can't form a cloud at all. Why don't you take it up with them?
2 Why are you using the Appleman chart when you admit it is inaccurate?
For the 5th time (you must be mentally challenged) it's accurate to 98% at predicting no contrails and when contrails are predicted it's only 25% accurate. :D
you are going to have to come up with a better response than that if you want this two-bit ATS knockoff site to grow.
It's grown a lot and will continue with more posts from people like you. Thanks so much!

PS. Excellent chemtrail documentaries:
Aerosol Crimes 1st Edition

YouTube - 1 of 27 Chemtrail film: Don't Talk About the Weather

And my own personal eye-witness recordings of obvious chemtrail spraying

YouTube - Chemtrails Maple Ridge Pitt Meadows BC Nov 17 2009

TrutherD = Truth herd. HERD. Hidden words in your name, truther? must be an agent.
LMAO. HAHAHA. TOO FUNNY. THESE PAID TROLLS HAVE -NOTHING- MORE TO SAY ABOUT THE SCIENCE AND ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH. THEY ARE ONLY HERE TO DISCREDIT GOOD PEOPLE AND DISTRACT OTHERS FROM FINDING OUT WHAT'S GOING ON EVERY DAY ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Thanks for another page in Google, trolls!

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Hey stompk, I have a dark field biological microscope. It's really cool to look at your own red blood cells flowing and your white blood cells moving around doing their job. Blood is an excellent indicator of overall health. With dark field microscopy you can see if your blood is too acidic, if there are undigested proteins, if you're low on anti-oxidants, heavy metal poisoning, parasites (you can watch them infect your red cells which then become zombies acting independently attacking other cells!) and much more. Such a microscope with a nice 2.0MP digital camera only costs about $600 these days.

Some examples and information on what can be seen:
Live Blood Labs Microscopes - High Quality Microscopes for Blood Analysis (http://www.livebloodlabs.com/darkfield.htm)
Darkfield Studies - Flash: Blood Parasites (http://darkfieldstudies.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=75)
Darkfield Studies - Flash: Immune Response to Metal Toxicity (http://darkfieldstudies.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=73)

From darkfield microscopy, live blood cell analysis (http://www.aquatechnology.net/darkfield.html)
The FDA does not approve of dark field microscopic blood analysis, therefore many doctor's hands are tied.
Just another example of globalists controlling our access to inexpensive highly-effective tests and treatments. Once you identify a problem in the blood, all it takes is some food or a few herbs or supplements to right things. Within an hour or so you can check your blood again to see the results for yourself. It's really quite amazing and is very helpful in curing some tricky multi-staged problems.

Check out a summary of my several-month-long natural health investigation here:
NWO Research - Exposing the global elite and their crimes: They Control your Health (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/10/they-control-your-health.html)

The sky is overcast with thick white haze (as is usual now) after the last spray session near me on Nov 17th (See My chemtrail videos (http://www.youtube.com/TrutherD1)). Do you think I could find some biological organisms in the rainwater? I'll have to take a look. :D

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 03:03 PM
Don't congratulate yourselves too much on account of having picked up a retired grandfather on your thread.
It's already obvious both that no-one else here wants to exchange ideas with you AND you aren't going to dispute me either.
How long are you two trolls going to troll each other?
Well, personally I'm going to leave it a week, check in, and if it's only you two here, I shall not return.
You can keep your purulent thread to yourselves, and no-one will ever know how much you enjoy it.
That will be fair...

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 04:16 PM
I've been busy distributing about 50 DVDs today. I've got a stack of 150 more already burned and am making more as I browse the web, play games, etc. It's pretty easy. I print out little write-ups with a description of the movie and include links to my personal chemtrail videos (http://www.youtube.com/TrutherD1) and my blog (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com). When I go through drive thrus I'll toss them in the window, or stick them next to the window so other customers will find them. I'll leave them on top of garbage cans or drop them on bus stops and restaurant counters. I do this wherever I go, in many cities in the lower mainland. Sometimes, if a drive thru is slow or I'm stuck at a railway crossing, I'll approach people in their cars and give them a DVD. I've had several emails of thanks and am making new friends. :D

Don't congratulate yourselves too much on account of having picked up a retired grandfather on your thread.
It's already obvious both that no-one else here wants to exchange ideas with you AND you aren't going to dispute me either.
How long are you two trolls going to troll each other?
Well, personally I'm going to leave it a week, check in, and if it's only you two here, I shall not return.
You can keep your purulent thread to yourselves, and no-one will ever know how much you enjoy it.
That will be fair...
Thanks for joining the forum just to talk with us, JazzRoc. How did you find the site? You must be really passionate about this subject if you would go so far as to set a reminder to come back in a week. :) How's the weather where you are? Let me guess... cloudy (http://images.google.com/images?q=chemtrail+haze), right? Being of healthy age you must remember what it was like to have beautiful blue skies (http://images.google.com/images?q=blue+sky), interrupted only by big fluffy clouds (http://images.google.com/images?q=fluffy+clouds) and short-lived tadpole-like trails (http://www.capetownskies.com/0635/18_contrails_crossingb.jpg) from aircraft. It's a shame that it is being destroyed (http://images.google.com/images?q=chemtrails) and our children may not ever know that beauty, isn't it? I look forward to speaking with you further. I hope to be able to address your lengthy post but you should understand I've already done hundreds of hours of research and I am convinced this is happening, so it's not my highest priority.

PS. Have you seen this?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2815320198655156407

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 04:56 PM
How did you find the site?
Populated by trolls. One of them is YOU. I've read the thread.

How's the weather where you are? Let me guess... cloudy, right?
Wrong. It's Tenerife and 25 deg C at noon. Winter. Yet sunny all day.

Being of healthy age you must remember what it was like to have beautiful blue skies, interrupted only by big fluffy clouds and short-lived tadpole-like trails from aircraft.
I saw my first continuous trail at Southport, Lancashire, in 1954. It was the beginning of the seventies (Dunstable Down) when I first saw the sky completely covered by contrail cirrus.

It's a shame that it is being destroyed and our children may not ever know that beauty, isn't it?
Supersaturation (and therefore inevitable overall cirrus cloud coverage by heavy air traffic) only occurs for 17% of the time. Randomly, of course, because that's what weather is - RANDOM.

Because air travel depends on oil and we have passed "peak oil" it will be a forever-reducing phenomenon. Growing oil products isn't going to make up for it, because land resources have also to meet the food demands of an increasing human population. It's crunch time right now. Such "destruction" as you mention is also at its peak.

The water of the ice that precipitates out onto aircraft exhaust ice is purer than tapwater because it's made from pure water vapor: only 0.01% of it is exhaust condensate, and only 0.3% of that 0.01% is NASTY.

A falling (they always do that!) contrail is a line of falling snowstorms which evaporates as it passes through the tropopause. It may not look like that, but a moment's thought will tell you that it is just as far over your head as the horizon is away from you - six miles.

I personally prefer blue skies - so I live here. Even so, flights passing from Italy to Brazil pass overhead and on occasion leave a persistent contrail. However they are so infrequent they NEVER cloud us over, and our skies remain blue.

What I find DEEPLY shameful is the way YOUR "truth" is the exact opposite of REAL truth. It will be a better world when you (and all the people like you) QUIT your little lucrative "chemtrail" businesses, your lies, and your slander. And not until...

stompk
11-19-2009, 05:18 PM
Hey JazzRoc, do you get a pension from the government?

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 05:21 PM
JRock
Wrong. It's Tenerife and 25 deg C at noon. Winter. Yet sunny all day.
Check again in 4 hours. It will be overcast again. It's hazy everywhere have you been following the latest postings around the net?

Can you explain the tell-tale patterns? X's, extensive grids, side-by-side parallel lines, etc. Continuous lines along the edge of extending overcast haze, as seen in my latest video. Why would the planes be flying along the edges of clouds like that? Why do they ALWAYS fly directly through the little tiny patches of blue in the sky to create a trail that fills the hole? Why are there clouds and overcast made of criss-crossing lines? (again, my latest video). Why would a trail be visibly segmented in a horizontal environment where the conditions are much the same? Why would clouds persist in a web-like fractal haze in open air and not dissipate? Trails are spotted at all altitudes in all temperatures and all humidity levels. What of the tens of thousands of eye-witness accounts, free for you to see on various video sites?

You have brought nothing we haven't already covered. There is far more to it than ice supersaturation (IF normal contrails can even persist longer than the standard 30-120 seconds in those conditions without additional particulate matter acting as condensation nuclei).

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 05:26 PM
Hey JazzRoc, do you get a pension from the government?
I sure do. I paid my dues all my life. The UK pays it straight into my local bank here. It's not much, and decreasing as the Pound Sterling is devaluing. It's not a lot (but I shan't tell you what it is). Why do you ask?

(Actually I'm wondering why I'm answering this.)

Kindly respond to my post, will you?

stompk
11-19-2009, 05:41 PM
I sure do. I paid my dues all my life. The UK pays it straight into my local bank here. It's not much, and decreasing as the Pound Sterling is devaluing. It's not a lot (but I shan't tell you what it is). Why do you ask?

(Actually I'm wondering why I'm answering this.)

Kindly respond to my post, will you?

Wow! An honest answer from a government funded shill.

I've answered your questions a hundred times over at ATS. Go over there and review.


Posted by JoshNorton

Well, when Steve was on ATS calling himself stompk, he started this chemtrail thread:
http://www.clubconspiracy.com/forum/f30/contrails-cannot-form-into-clouds-proof-6218-9.html#post63067
He was banned and came back as cutbothways and started these threads:
Jet Contrails. Droplets of Sulfuric Acid and particles of soot., page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread357016/pg1)
Was "Deep Shield" a Chemtrail whistleblower?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread355050/pg1)
Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!), page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread354199/pg1)
Debunking the Chemtrail Debunker. , page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353242/pg1)
He was banned and came back as Manasseh and started these threads:
Why don't contrails show up on water vapor satellite? Because they are chemtrails., page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread388787/pg1)
NASA says; Clouds will NEVER form from contrails., page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread382035/pg1)
Frequency of contrail formation outpaced increase in airtraffic, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread380431/pg1)
What you need to know about cloud seeding / chemtrails!, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread379859/pg1)
He was banned and came back as doctordoom and started these threads:
Chemtrails. It's in the jetfuel., page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread448911/pg1)
Dead birds in North Carolina test positive for salmonella. Chemtrails?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread446481/pg1)
Why are so many people calling contrails, Chemtrails?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread445614/pg1)
How much silver iodide is being sprayed in our skies through chemtrails, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread443548/pg1)
Chemtrails: Case Opened, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread441585/pg1)
He was banned and came back as Udontknowme and started these threads:
Are Contrails More Likely Formed In Less Humidity?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread498056/pg1)
Chemtrail Debunkers are Losing., page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread494402/pg1)
Are meteorologists lying about Chemtrails?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread492086/pg1)
Chemtrails being produced through nozzle at aft of jet engine?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread485400/pg1)
He was banned and came back as kingswillquiver and started these threads:
Heavy Metals in Jet Exhaust?! Where's the EPA?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread504553/pg1)
Does Aerosol Forcing = Chemtrails?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread502886/pg1).
He was banned and came back as antiopression and started this thread:
16000 dead birds in Idaho, 20000 in Utah, Chemtrail canary in the coal mine?, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread508802/pg1)
and now after being banned yet again, he's come back as exposethosesecrets and started these threads:
My search for the 1990 USAFA Chemtrail document, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread512333/pg1)
Chemtrail proof! 1990 US Air Force document!, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread511949/pg1)

My search for the 1990 USAFA Chemtrail document, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread512333/pg1)

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 05:44 PM
It's hazy everywhere
Not here, boyo.

Can you explain?
Yes.
JazzRoc versus “Chemtrails” (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com)

You have brought nothing we haven't already covered. There is far more to it than ice supersaturation.
You are a lazy pseudo and a liar. You haven't read or understood anything.
You haven't debated anything. I don't believe you are capable of reason.

There is far more to heat engines, aircraft, aviation, the atmosphere, and the special nature of water itself than you COULD understand, even IF you tried to.
I'd find your comment insulting if I could find any sense in it apart from lying propaganda. But I can't - so... GFY.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 05:46 PM
You have brought nothing we haven't already covered. There is far more to it than ice supersaturation.
You are a lazy pseudo and a liar. You haven't read or understood anything.
You haven't debated anything. I don't believe you are capable of reason.

There is far more to heat engines, aircraft, aviation, the atmosphere, and the special nature of water itself than you COULD understand, even IF you tried to.
I'd find your comment insulting if I could find any sense in it apart from lying propaganda. But I can't - so... GFY.
Will the real debaters please stand up without falling into a rude immature tirade? I sure wish you would address my points directly. Use your eyes to view the evidence. It's easy to see there's something going on. I watched them rebuild a receding overcast sky just two days ago. Check it out. And guess what... Yesterday and today ZERO visibility. Just overcast haze everywhere. Don't ingest or get rainwater in your eyes, people! Eat garlic for antiviral, fish or flax oil for aluminum detox and potassium for barium detox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUGsDjnFidA

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 05:55 PM
Wow! An honest answer from a government funded shill.
Government-funded pensioner, please, TROLL.

I've answered you questions a hundred times over at ATS. Go over there and review.
I'm not active on ATS. I'm not sure if I'm registered there.

Is there no beginning to your "truth"?

Answer my post.

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Will the real debaters please stand up without falling into a rude immature tirade?
Real debater? That's not YOU, is it? THIS is YOU:
Why do you insist on discrediting and telling others what to do? No-one's stopping you from posting it elsewhere. I smell a paid troll.
You decided to join with some semi-rational thoughts and evidence. Congratulations on participating in the forum rather than just using it to baselessly attack others.
How long did you research? 5 minutes?
Why you bother is because you apparently care a lot about what we think on this subject. That much is apparent from your constant barrage of immature insults and baseless claims. The least you could do is have a rational conversation with us. Your one and two-line ramblings will have to do.
You have jumped on your belief without doing any real research of your own and you show little respect for those you converse with. You should be grateful we tolerate your uneducated trollish ways at all.
What's pointless is making statements about things we've already covered.
I don't know why I bother with you, you are an obvious paid troll ignoring what is easy to see with your own eyes.
Yawn. These trolls are pathetic.
Start thinking critically for yourself again, weighing evidence and science from both sides, identifying paid govt. trolls, etc. and you will find the real truth.
I am going to continue distributing DVDs until I reach my goal of 1000, then will likely sub-contract to a larger company and continue my work. I will be filming chemtrails whenever I can, and will be posting signs all around telling people to search YouTube for chemtrails and view the documentaries on my site.
Your argument is laughable. I honestly don't care if I convince you of anything -- In fact, I'm sure it's impossible considering your obvious line of work.
Only a fool would believe this decade-old phenomenon that happens in all temperatures at all altitudes in all humidity levels is caused solely by ice supersaturation.
Look at all the attention we are getting. It's good, because every page we argue with the trolls is one more page for the search engines!

I sure wish you would address my points directly.
Sure. Just as soon as you do the same for me. Not before, TROLL.

Use your eyes to view the evidence. It's easy to see there's something going on. I watched them rebuild a receding overcast sky just two days ago.
We've ALL got EYES and can SEE. Nobody seems to have told you that you then need a BRAIN to interpret what you see. Go and find one.

Check it out. And guess what... Today ZERO visibility. Just overcast haze everywhere. Don't ingest the rainwater or get it in your eyes, people! Eat garlic for antiviral, fish or flax oil for aluminum detox and potassium for barium detox.
How OLD are you, exactly?
Your watch?v=kUGsDjnFidA was, to quote a "Farscape" term, pure DREN.
Your pathetic pointing of a videocam at the sky will, if the spirits allow, wear the bleeding thing out, and good riddance.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Sorry, I don't believe it's ice supersaturation. We'll have to agree to disagree.

PS. Another good documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxNeoXkL0mM

stompk
11-19-2009, 06:13 PM
How OLD are you, exactly?


Well, I know that TrutherD is not some 65 yr old man living off some offshore account owned by the Queen (head shill), claiming to be a retired scientist concerned that people aren't getting the truth about Chemtrails.

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 06:22 PM
Well, I know that TrutherD is not some 65 yr old man living off some offshore account owned by the Queen (head shill), claiming to be a retired scientist concerned that people aren't getting the truth about Chemtrails.
I only tell the truth.

The truth is YOU ARE A LIAR AND A SLANDERER.

Ideal material for a "chemtrailer". Oh - you ARE one.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 06:24 PM
Ideal material for a "chemtrailer". Oh - you ARE one.
I'm not. I'm a truther! :D

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Keep asking questions from independent sources, especially about stuff you see on mainstream TV, radio, newspapers and internet sites. (These are all owned by the same secret groups)

Always do your own research before jumping to any conclusions. Don't just follow "popular" opinion. Learn to think critically for yourself again. Take back control of your life and health. Learn from the wisdom of the ages and the experience of your peers and reject false claims.

stompk
11-19-2009, 06:29 PM
I only tell the truth.

The truth is YOU ARE A LIAR AND A SLANDERER.



You are funny.

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 06:52 PM
Sorry, I don't believe it's ice supersaturation. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Unfortunately you're disagreeable.

PS. Another good documentary: watch?v=HxNeoXkL0mM
NO. THIS is a "good" documentary (in that it shows CLEARLY how FAKE your "evidence" is):

YouTube - RDF TV - Baloney Detection Kit - Michael Shermer

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 06:53 PM
NO. THIS is a "good" documentary (in that it shows CLEARLY how FAKE your "evidence" is):
I recorded my videos myself. Are you suggesting I modified them? What of the hundreds of thousands of videos around the net showing much, much worse?

Good video. Indeed, I always use my bologna detection kit. :) Believe it or not, I still remain objective about chemtrails. If you made claims other than "ice supersaturation" I would listen. I considered it seriously several posts ago, which you would know if you did indeed read the thread. I'm sorry but I don't agree this explains everything we're seeing.

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 07:05 PM
I'm not. I'm a truther!
That makes you a liar.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Keep asking questions <SNIP> reject false claims.
Do you know how to suck an egg?

stompk
11-19-2009, 07:05 PM
I recorded my videos myself. Are you suggesting I modified them? What of the hundreds of thousands of videos around the net showing much, much worse?

Good video. Indeed, I always use my bologna detection kit. :) Believe it or not, I still remain objective about chemtrails. If you made claims other than "ice supersaturation" I would listen. I considered it seriously several posts ago, which you would know if you did indeed read the thread. I'm sorry but I don't agree this explains everything we're seeing.

TrutherD, can't tell how glad I am we're on the same side.

Keep it up, my friend. Nice vids by the way.

stompk
11-19-2009, 07:07 PM
That makes you a liar.


Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.




Proud scoundrel here.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 07:10 PM
Likewise, stompk.

JazzRoc
11-19-2009, 07:42 PM
I recorded my videos myself. Are you suggesting I modified them?
LOL! NO! YOU MISINTERPRETED THEM. :p

What of the hundreds of thousands of videos around the net showing much, much worse?
What? You mean EVEN MORE BORING? ;)

Good video. Indeed, I always use my bologna detection kit. :) Believe it or not, I still remain objective about chemtrails.
You do? Then why are you so FULL OF PRECONCEPTIONS? :confused:

If you made claims other than "ice supersaturation" I would listen.
Ah. So you KNOW a jumbo spits out TWENTY SEVEN TONS OF SNOW PER MILE, and EIGHTY THOUSAND TONS PER FLIGHT. I rather thought you didn't.

I considered it seriously several posts ago, which you would know if you did indeed read the thread. I'm sorry but I don't agree this explains everything we're seeing.
I don't think we treat the word "serious" in the same way.

I KNOW you haven't read my first post in. I KNOW I read your posts, because your trolling disgusted me.

OF COURSE there are definitely more physics-related things you don't understand which complete the picture. Some of them RULE out ANYTHING that is supposed to be other than a contrail.

What has NO CONNECTION are "eyewitless accounts", "personal testimonies", "proposed weather-owning", "patents", "past govt atrocities" and "chemtrail vids", which are just a waste of your life (and mine, if you persuade me to watch them).

First you HAVE to understand what you see. For that you have to behave like a scientist would.

shilltastic seems to agree with me:

TrutherD, of course your comment will remain! It’s precisely the type of ignorance that those of us who understand the facts like to see! With that comment, you have just said “I know nothing about the atmosphere or aviation and I also accept youtube videos, made by OTHER ignorant people as “fact”, simply because I’m too lazy to research this from the perspective of peer reviewed scientific fact”. Thanks! That video is nothing but paranoid trash made by someone else who is clueless about the truth.

He REALLY has a way with words, doesn't he?

BlueAngel
11-19-2009, 10:36 PM
Yes.

I'll have to agree.

He does have AWAY with words.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 10:52 PM
What has NO CONNECTION are "eyewitless accounts", "personal testimonies", "proposed weather-owning", "patents", "past govt atrocities" and "chemtrail vids", which are just a waste of your life (and mine, if you persuade me to watch them).
Ignore eye-witness accounts? You are quite surely insane.

All considered, in my opinion, arguing about ice saturation in light of the summation of all evidence is a "waste of life".

BlueAngel
11-19-2009, 11:03 PM
Pardon the interruption, but you really should include the poster's user name in your quote.

TrutherD
11-19-2009, 11:16 PM
Pardon the interruption, but you really should include the poster's user name in your quote.
As you wish, milady. :)

JazzRoc
11-20-2009, 03:49 AM
Ignore eye-witness accounts? You are quite surely insane. All considered, in my opinion, arguing about ice saturation in light of the summation of all evidence is a "waste of life".
We ALL have eyes and can see.
We all see there are aircraft laying trails.
It is the INTERPRETATION of what you see that is important. Without a little scientific understanding it is NOT POSSIBLE to interpret what you see correctly ie.: Does the Sun go round the Earth? You know it doesn't. Does the Sun appear to go round the Earth? You know it does.
What's the difference? Interpretation (science) is the difference.
That is WHY eyewitness accounts need careful analysis. In practice "chemtrail eyewitness videos" are ALL of the EXACT SAME phenomenon. To see one IS to see all, for the aircraft trail will merely reveal the WEATHER in the plane's path. And the weather is the weather. No further analysis is necessary after the first CT vid. (The thousands of CRAPPY, squalid, bullshit, miserable, dimwitted offerings that there are out there. The ghastly waste of video technology by those who understand nothing of the design genius between their fingers is SO BAD that I honestly begin to believe the human race DESERVES extinction.)
Some of us with considerable experience know precisely what is happening, because we were educated properly.
I certainly learned at an early age to respect the education system before I understood it, and especially respect science before I understood at least 90% of it. Respect MUST precede understanding.
You have NOT been there.
You don't bother to find out ANYTHING which disconfirms your preconceptions.
You fabricate stories which might fit these, and exchange these fabrications with other morlocks.
This has led you to smell an opportunity to make money selling lies and slanders to other ignorant people, stoking up their fear and keeping them in the dark.
It's more than mischief.
You and your clones are an anarchic force of truly mindless social destruction and appear to be the precursors of the next dark age.
In a properly-civilized society (which this one certainly isn't) you'd be hunted down and your criminal neurones whacked before you committed further harm.
You may well be mentally-ill, but I have looked after psychologically-damaged people in the past, and NONE of them ever behaved as badly as you. They were always trying to be decent people.
In my opinion you are filthy and disgusting worms. What am I saying? Worms are beautiful creatures compared with you.

Just an opinion, of course...
.

TrutherD
11-20-2009, 10:16 AM
We ALL have eyes and can see.
We all see there are aircraft laying trails.
It is the INTERPRETATION of what you see that is important. Without a little scientific understanding it is NOT POSSIBLE to interpret what you see correctly ie.: Does the Sun go round the Earth? You know it doesn't. Does the Sun appear to go round the Earth? You know it does.
What's the difference? Interpretation (science) is the difference.
That is WHY eyewitness accounts need careful analysis. In practice "chemtrail eyewitness videos" are ALL of the EXACT SAME phenomenon. To see one IS to see all, for the aircraft trail will merely reveal the WEATHER in the plane's path. And the weather is the weather. No further analysis is necessary after the first CT vid. (The thousands of CRAPPY, squalid, bullshit, miserable, dimwitted offerings that there are out there. The ghastly waste of video technology by those who understand nothing of the design genius between their fingers is SO BAD that I honestly begin to believe the human race DESERVES extinction.)
Some of us with considerable experience know precisely what is happening, because we were educated properly.
I certainly learned at an early age to respect the education system before I understood it, and especially respect science before I understood at least 90% of it. Respect MUST precede understanding.
You have NOT been there.
You don't bother to find out ANYTHING which disconfirms your preconceptions.
You fabricate stories which might fit these, and exchange these fabrications with other morlocks.
This has led you to smell an opportunity to make money selling lies and slanders to other ignorant people, stoking up their fear and keeping them in the dark.
It's more than mischief.
You and your clones are an anarchic force of truly mindless social destruction and appear to be the precursors of the next dark age.
In a properly-civilized society (which this one certainly isn't) you'd be hunted down and your criminal neurones whacked before you committed further harm.
You may well be mentally-ill, but I have looked after psychologically-damaged people in the past, and NONE of them ever behaved as badly as you. They were always trying to be decent people.
In my opinion you are filthy and disgusting worms. What am I saying? Worms are beautiful creatures compared with you.

Just an opinion, of course...
I watched with my own eyes as they systematically REBUILT the overcast sky in a variety of ways. I don't need any more interpretation.

I'd like to say it's been a pleasure conversing with you JazzRoc but you are really not very nice. Take care of yourself, though. Even you deserve freedom and good health. (Although by your statements above it seems you would prefer a totalitarian police state, where dissent and free-thinking are rewarded with arrest, torture and even rape, as we have recently seen in Iran). Remember, power corrupts. The government must fear the people, not the other way around. I spread what I've learned from extensive research not to make money - as you will see there are no ads on my blog and all the films I recommend are free - but to raise awareness on important issues for humanity. I may not be right about everything, but when I find I'm wrong I celebrate the discovery, as scientists do. If I could suggest anything to you I would say respect and love your fellow man. They do the best they can with the knowledge and experiences they have. They have a right to exist. Who are you to judge and execute? I hope for all of our sakes the good people reading this thread can see through your pitiful attempt at character assassination. Regards

albie
11-20-2009, 10:36 AM
That's weird. I happened upon Jazzroc while looking for info on the subject. Was going to email him to invite him here to use REAL science. And he's here before I had a chance to. This must be a psychic event!

OH NO! I'm one of THEM now!

JazzRoc
11-20-2009, 02:55 PM
I watched with my own eyes as they systematically REBUILT the overcast sky in a variety of ways. I don't need any more interpretation.
Oh yes you do.
87,000 flights are made each day over the States and most of them are NOT seen, except by paranoids with telephoto lenses. If they make no trails they are easily missed by everyone. Just now and then they'll glint in the light of the sun.
It's only when the sky is wet that chemtrailers' interest is excited.
But the same number of flights take place each and every day.

you are really not very nice.
In the same way that policemen are "not nice" to burglars.

it seems you would prefer a totalitarian police state
No. Just one that has a zero tolerance to CRIME.

I spread what I've learned from extensive research not to make money - as you will see there are no ads on my blog and all the films I recommend are free - but to raise awareness on important issues for humanity
Your "research" doesn't include the scientific research on the atmosphere (some of which I have provided here) without which you are bound to DIMINISH awareness.

when I find I'm wrong I celebrate the discovery, as scientists do
In which case (if you read the above) you're in for a celebration. We can celebrate together. Mine's a beer...

If I could suggest anything to you I would say respect and love your fellow man. They do the best they can with the knowledge and experiences they have. They have a right to exist.
My sentiments entirely.

Who are you to judge and execute?
Well, I stand up for justice and truth. I want due process of law. I detest immorality, unethical behavior, and criminality. You can check me for my definitions of those if you wish.
As for "execution", I think you will find that your slapdash approach has led you too ANOTHER poor conclusion. Without checking above, I think I said something like "whacking your criminal neurones".
What I had in mind involved just that. Using a cat-scanner it is possible to identify EXACTLY those neurones involved with paranoid behavior. That is, the ones which prevent you from acting in a scientific, logical, and reasonable manner. The ones that, consciously or unconsciously, mark me as a shill, for a start, and then prevent you from reading MY FIRST POST and congratulating your co-conspirator for tieing this "shill" to your thread and expanding your net coverage. (A set of actions which I found even more disgusting than your original outrageous behavior.)
For I should be taken for what I truly am, which is a retired professional scientist, engineer, artist, and musician. At least UNTIL I have provided you with evidence otherwise.
To me, a "shill" is obviously a LIAR. As I know I definitely am NOT one, so I know that you definitely ARE one.
The reason why I am retired (at age 65) and living in Tenerife is simple. I worked for the last eighteen years of my professional life as a self-employed engineering contract worker. Due to foolishly investing (using my home as collateral) in my own household heat recovery system business (which works, but that's another story) during the Thatcher era, I lost my house. I and my family lived by the charity of a friend while I worked contract until my mother-in-law died, leaving my wife her house. This she sold, and this enabled us to move to Tenerife. Since being here I have worked as a gardener, but only for about a six-month period. It's hard getting employment on a Spanish island if you're an English engineer. And this year I qualified for a government pension, being 65 years old.

I hope for all of our sakes the good people reading this thread can see through your pitiful attempt at character assassination. Regards
If my accurate description of what you are doing assassinates your character that will be good. For you in particular.
Your character is far too slapdash so far for you to be able to justify your behavior.
But it is within the remit of everyone (who is well) to change their behavior.
If you really will not read and learn to understand my post then you are outside reason and logic and, frankly, unwell.
If, on the other hand, you DO interchange information with me, you stand a chance of liberating yourself from this morbidity you suffer from.
This liberation will free you to consider genuinely pressing problems concerning REAL conspiracies which DO exist.
That's all I wish for.

TrutherD
11-20-2009, 02:56 PM
Good luck with that, JazzRoc

PS. I found another good documentary (Have you seen this one?)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6914650033464787209

JazzRoc
11-20-2009, 03:23 PM
That's weird. I happened upon Jazzroc while looking for info on the subject. Was going to email him to invite him here to use REAL science. And he's here before I had a chance to. This must be a psychic event!

OH NO! I'm one of THEM now!
It didn't work like that.
My blog which runs at Wordpress gives me a "dashboard" which logs EVERY ENTRY EVENT.
I keep a beady eye upon it for entries from forums.
It was the simplest thing to reach into the blog page, Albie, and sign up.
I thought you were doing pretty well, actually, but I could also see a fairyland of trolling taking place.
I have nothing against conspiracy sites in principle (although quite often they have a lot against me!).
It's just that SOME conspiracy theories NEED quelling. If they are totally out of whack, they divert ENERGY from where it has to be applied.
The Chemtrail Theory plays every victim it has straight into the hands of the people we MUST overcome.
Even unaffected people are going to become affected by THAT.
The most important events are the ones happening now, of which we know nothing.
We know nothing because we have become fixated upon trivia like "chemtrails" (don't exist), 911 (far too effing late), and whatever....

TrutherD
11-20-2009, 03:46 PM
Instead of quelling something that is extraordinarily plausible why don't you try working toward garnering support for whatever you feel is good and righteous? Surely your time could be better spent than making one-sided rants and attacks against people who have already expressed numerous reasons for their opinion. There must be something of a greater threat to the safety and security of you and your loved ones than "chemtrail believers". You do realize being rude is probably not the best way to convert people to your view, right? Are you really that bitter? Cheer up, mate. There's always viagra (though I would suggest Cayenne and Maca Root instead). :P (Couldn't resist!)

JazzRoc
11-20-2009, 04:57 PM
Instead of quelling something that is extraordinarily plausible
Conmen are that.

why don't you try working toward garnering support for whatever you feel is good and righteous?
My understanding of aircraft and the atmosphere is "good and righteous". Because of it I KNOW your behavior is BAD and WRONGFUL.

Surely your time could be better spent than making one-sided rants and attacks against people who have already expressed numerous reasons for their opinion.
Every one of your "reasons" is incorrect. In the three years since I first heard of this crap I have NEVER heard a chemtrailer propose a SINGLE correct "reason". You are NEVER right. Even stopped clocks are correct twice a day. "Chemtrail" reasoning is simply abysmal. Hopeless. Pathetic. Bad. Fraudulent. Corrupt.

There must be something of a greater threat to the safety and security of you and your loved ones than "chemtrail believers".
What? Thousands of very stupid liars slandering innocent people while conspirators conspire at their leisure?

You do realize being rude is probably not the best way to convert people to your view, right?
Well REASON doesn't seem to work with you. You make a mockery of debate with your arrogant pseudoscience.

Are you really that bitter? Cheer up, mate. There's always viagra (though I would suggest Cayenne and Maca Root instead). :P (Couldn't resist!)
No. Not really. I'm confident you'll provide your own nemesis if you're determined enough. I won't have to bother. I've made you an offer, which you've rejected. That's the end of it.
I'm busy with this, on my desert island:
YouTube - A Post-Oil Man

stompk
11-20-2009, 06:03 PM
It didn't work like that.

It's just that SOME conspiracy theories NEED quelling.

Of course they do. Otherwise the Queen and her ilk (ilk being JazzRoc), wouldn't
be able to sicken the global population with their evil schemes.

You can spew your lies all you want, the truth is there is a global awakening
going on and people are looking up.

Google Chemtrails, and you get nearly 1/2 million hits.

Goat Schtuppers like you are going down.

stompk
11-20-2009, 06:10 PM
GFS Chemicals, Inc. maintains a proud tradition in these chemistries, particularly compounds derived from iodine. Our iodides, iodates, and periodates have established a worldwide reputation for high quality and high purity. These are used in everything from weather modification to organic catalysts to analytical chemistry

Iodine and Bromine Chemistries - GFS-CHEMICALS (http://www.gfschemicals.com/statics/documents/technical/technical05eecc0430704b53af1b459e09a9059a.html)

TrutherD
11-20-2009, 10:03 PM
There doesn't seem much point in talking further, JazzRoc. You ignore my stated position and the reasons behind it, ridicule legitimate interpretations of science and discount eye-witness accounts. It's all just a lot of immature ranting and raving. I know you can see plainly that the spraying cannot be explained by ice saturation alone. Whether you choose to take the right side on this, defending the rights of the average person who want simple answers to legitimate questions, is your choice. Whether you choose to have a conversation with mutual respect would be your choice, too - but that really should have happened 10 posts ago, and I do not have much faith in your ability to take part in such. This is probably because your argument holds no water whatsoever. That is why you are reduced to personal attacks as the foundation of your conversation here.

stompk
11-21-2009, 10:05 AM
YouTube - Chemtrails prova definitiva! On-off 3 planes!

TrutherD
11-21-2009, 05:15 PM
Last night it started to clear up a bit, but the thick overcast is back in full force today. After doing my rounds handing out DVDs (including to a few cute girls:D), I looked at rainwater under a dark-field microscope. I took a slide outside and waited about 5 minutes until it was covered with rain droplets. I put it under the microscope at magnification up to 16x60x (960x). I didn't see anything moving, but I did see a lot of very tiny possible fibers. I can't rule out slide contamination yet (it is practically impossible to get a slide 100% clean) and I do not have access to advanced techniques such as resonance scanning to identify the material nor far more advanced live microscopy up to 60,000x such as utilized by Royal Raymond Rife (http://www.google.com/search?q=royal+raymond+rife+-site:wikipedia.org) in the 30's to see very tiny organisms (that technology (http://users.navi.net/~rsc/rife1.htm) is, of course, harshly suppressed). To me, the fibers looked a lot smaller than normal dust contamination and it did not appear to be a uniform scrape or anything on the glass. The slide came straight from the box, to sampling, to the 'scope. A few of the supposed fibers were twisted up in close proximity, etc. Perhaps I can concentrate or strain the rainwater which should amplify their number and clearly rule out slide contamination.

stompk
11-21-2009, 05:59 PM
Last night it started to clear up a bit, but the thick overcast is back in full force today. After doing my rounds handing out DVDs (including to a few cute girls:D), I looked at rainwater under a dark-field microscope. I took a slide outside and waited about 5 minutes until it was covered with rain droplets. I put it under the microscope at magnification up to 16x60x (960x). I didn't see anything moving, but I did see a lot of very tiny possible fibers. I can't rule out slide contamination yet (it is practically impossible to get a slide 100% clean) and I do not have access to advanced techniques such as resonance scanning to identify the material nor far more advanced live microscopy up to 60,000x such as utilized by Royal Raymond Rife (http://www.google.com/search?q=royal+raymond+rife+-site:wikipedia.org) in the 30's to see very tiny organisms (that technology is, of course, harshly suppressed). To me, the fibers looked a lot smaller than normal dust contamination and it did not appear to be a uniform scrape or anything on the glass. The slide came straight from the box, to sampling, to the 'scope. A few of the supposed fibers were twisted up in close proximity, etc. Perhaps I can concentrate or strain the rainwater which should amplify their number and clearly rule out slide contamination.

Nice work TrutherD. Great scientific information!

I have some time to review more of this Chemtrail documents. I'm finding alot, if not all of the chemical talked about in the document are the same chemicals used in biological/chemical warfare.

TrutherD
11-21-2009, 06:08 PM
Good job, stompk. I'm glad you find my posts informative. :D I think chemtrails could be one of the leading causes of the downfall of the NWO. ;) We've got to take the power back!

Warning: Paid government troll post below

JazzRoc
11-21-2009, 06:11 PM
That's all I have done? Abuse you? You have yet to respond to my first post. The nub of which I shall return to, seeing as the two of you are
without any manners whatsoever. Until you respond to it I shall continue to put this up.

“Contrails to Cirrus—Morphology, Microphysics, and Radiative Properties”:

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf

And I have translated the last two sections for you:

"Remarks—Climatic impact

It is interesting that the mean optical depth found in this case (0.35) corresponds to that found in climatological satellite measurements by Ponater et al. (2002) and Minnis et al. (2004), and that the microphysical properties are consistent with a wide range of observations and models by prior authors. Accordingly, it is appropriate to speculate on their effect on climate.
The issue of the impact of contrail-generated cirrus (CS) on climate change has been treated by a number of investigators.
Sassen (1997) suggested that the unusually small particles typical of many persistent contrails might favor the albedo cooling over the greenhouse warming. Using a 2D mesoscale cloud model, Khvorostyanov and Sassen (1998) computed the distribution of the mean crystal radius, concentration, and ice water content of a contrail after 30 minutes of development.
They found a twofold effect. At the surface, the net greenhouse minus albedo effect was negative with a cooling of 15 Watts per square meter.
However, at the top of the atmosphere (corresponding to the entire atmospheric column), the net effect was a warming of 8 Watts per square meter.
We note that the latter simulation for the early stage of the cloud produced very large concentrations of small crystals, and that the longwave warming would be increased relative to the shortwave cooling, with the much larger particles, such as are found in the present study.
An evaluation of the effects of contrail cirrus over the globe is complex because of the great geographic and diurnal variability of air traffic, the variability of optical thickness and persistence of the clouds, the background brightness, and the natural changes in ambient humidity (Minnis 2003).
There are also a number of feedback mechanisms at play that climate models have not dealt with very well.
The finding that the vertical motions accompanying the transformation to cirrus also increase the humidity above the contrail is one such factor (Jensen et al. 1998). Nevertheless, using results from a general circulation model simulation of contrails, Minnis et al. (2004) found that the cirrus trends resulting from contrails in the United States are estimated to cause a tropospheric warming of 0.2– 0.3C per decade, a range that includes the observed trend of 0.27C per decade between 1975 and 1994. One must emphasize that, even if correct, this is a regional effect.
We may summarize the various studies as follows:
1) regional effects in the 1990s in the United States and Europe have a cover of 0.5%–2% with a maximum over Europe of 0.35%, and warming of 0.1–0.2 W per square metre, and
2) global effects that are about 0.1 of the regional values.
These estimates are based upon the work of Minnis et al. (1998), Ponater et al. (2002), Palikonda et al. (2002), and Minnis et al. (2004).
The latter authors also project an aircraft scenario for 2050 that would produce a regional radiative forcing of 1.5 Watts per square metre over Europe, a global coverage of 0.5%, and a radiative forcing of 0.05 Watts per square metre. In short, the present-day effects are significant regionally but in the noise globally. Further research is necessary to assess factors such as the amount of cirrus that is initiated by the contrails but not distinguishable from natural cirrus.

Summary and Conclusions

This study of the transformation of contrails to cirrus uncinus (mares’ tails) was made possible by a fortuitous and unique combination of observations by a groundbased camera, a vertically pointing lidar, satellite imagery, and a new database of aircraft flight tracks. The photograph documented the metamorphosis of the contrails to cirrus and the formation of fallstreaks almost continuously along the contrails in directions consistent with the winds.
A novel method was developed to use the visible photograph with the lidar-measured cloud heights to obtain the true orientation of the contrails and fallstreaks, their spacing, and their dimensions.
Although the cirrus lines appeared to converge in the southwest, they were actually almost parallel to one another, oriented from about 232 to 52 and spaced about 4–5 km apart, as confirmed by the satellite image and by the time spacing of their passage over the lidar.
The flight tracks occurred in two corridors: the western corridor corresponded to flights from east coast cities to Atlanta and others in the general vicinity; the eastern corridor flights originated mostly from the same cities to destinations in Florida and the vicinity.
Although the flight tracks in each corridor followed nearly identical paths in sequence, their contrails separated in time and were advected to the southeast with the component of the wind normal to the trail. When the contrails passed over the lidar at GSFC each appeared as a cirrus uncinus cloud with a generator turret and fallstreak of ice crystals oriented nearly normal to the length of the contrail. Using the appropriate component of the wind to extrapolate backward in time, we were able to correlate each contrail at the lidar with a specific aircraft flight with a remarkable correlation coefficient of 0.99.
The older contrails from a few of the flights in the western corridor arrived at the lidar nearly simultaneously with the younger ones from the eastern corridor, thus producing broader contrail cirrus at the lidar. This is also manifested by the overlap of contrails in the eastern corridor as seen by the satellite. The lag between the initial formation and the time of first detection by MODIS is approx. 33 min. The 2 h required for the contrails from the western corridor to reach the lidar at GSFC is a measure of their minimum lifetime, because they persisted beyond GSFC. The lead author watched them for about 1–2 hours later in the afternoon.
Among other notable features of the contrails, which have formed at about -40C, are the convective turrets or generator cells of the cirrus uncinus that grow to 1–2-km horizontal size from the initial downward pendants created by the wake dynamics of the aircraft, as shown by other investigators. The pendants are composed of a large concentration of tiny ice crystals and large ice water content (IWC) and grow via heating by longwave radiation from the ground.
The brightness of the generator cells, comparable to that of warm cumulus, is also a result of the large concentration of tiny ice particles, as deduced from the lidar observations and by in situ sampling by prior authors.
The lidar observations provided three time–height profiles:
1) the attenuated lidar scattering ratio (ALSR)
2) the extinction coefficient (d)
3) the radar reflectivity factor (Z)
The slope of the fallstreaks provided particle fall speeds and an approximation to the particle median volume diameters (D0). The values of d and D0 lead to the IWC and to the parameter K = (d/IWC), the ratio of extinction to IWC. All of the values deduced are in reasonable agreement with those by other investigators. The vertical integrals of d and IWC provide the optical thickness T and ice water path (IWP), respectively.
The time-averaged values (over the 93-min period observed by the lidar) are Tau = 0.352 and <IWP> = 8.14 grams per square meter, and are dominated by the fallstreaks.
The average ice water per meter along the length of the contrail is 16 Kilograms (35.4 pounds) per meter, some three to four orders of magnitude (1,000 to 10,000 times) greater than the water vapor released by typical jet aircraft, also similar to previously reported values.
The net effect of the water and particles released by the aircraft results in a major inadvertent modification of the atmosphere under appropriate ambient conditions. Furthermore, the evaporation of the fallstreaks at lower levels indicates the downward transfer of moisture from the upper levels where the crystals have grown.
Although most investigators favor the finding that contrail cirrus produce atmospheric warming on regional scales in the United States and Europe, the impact on global warming is still in the noise. Should aircraft activity increase as projected, the global effects would become significant by 2050."

Patrick Minnis is a shill.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/minnis.jpg

DR. PATRICK MINNIS, Climate Sciences Branch, NASA Langley Research Center, Mail Stop 420, Hampton, VA 23681.
Born in Shawnee, Oklahoma. Raised in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma graduating from Casady School in 1968.
1991 – Ph.D., University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT, Meteorology 1978 – M.S., Colorado State University, Ft. Collins, CO, Atmospheric Science
1972 – B.E., Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN, Materials Science & Metallurgical Engineering, Senior Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Science Directorate,
1981-1986, Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Materials Application and Technology Division,
1977-1981, Research Engineer, Kentron International,
1972-1975, Product Engineer, Ferro Fiberglass.

So let us ask the question:

are stompk and trutherD honest and genuine dedicated researchers, and Dr. Patrick Minnis a SHILL

or is it the case that stompk and trutherD are ignorant, lazy, lying, desperate and slanderous scumbags, and Dr. Patrick Minnis Ph.D., (author of at least 153 scientific papers on the atmosphere) possibly the most talented, qualified, hard-working and accomplished expert on Atmospheric Physics in the world?

Hmmm. Difficult...

And let us continue to what the research paper says: "CONTRAILS FORM INTO CLOUDS".

Duh, that's the OPPOSITE, A DIRECT CONTRADICTION OF THIS THREAD. And they contradicted it with DIRECT EVIDENCE, you know, pictures, measurements, samples, and simulations, followed by calculations and predictions. Science, really...

And what evidence does this thread provide? Simplistic and unsupported assertions made from a 56-yr-old rough and ready graph which was prepared for avoiding contrails, and videos of contrails. Pseudoscience, REALLY.

Duh, who to believe?

Science is NOT a belief system. It's an UNBELIEF system. Nothing is asserted without evidence. This enables ACCURATE predictions to be made. By that I mean that when the predicted event occurs, it OCCURS AS IT WAS PREDICTED.

ALL belief systems, religion, pseudoscience, spoon-bending, tea-leaf reading, "chemtrails", are BULLSHIT.

PLEASE LEARN TO UNDERSTAND SCIENCE BEFORE YOUR IGNORANCE KILLS US ALL
.
.

TrutherD
11-21-2009, 06:14 PM
Keep ignoring the evidence, JazzRoc. Everyone can see there is much more to it. All they have to do is look up at the blue sky to see the cloudy overcast haze being systematically rebuilt by planes every time it starts to clear up. Set up a video camera aimed at open sky and leave it on for 8 hours then come back and play it at high speed. You will very likely see chemtrails and ultimately an impenetrable chemical overcast. I know I did, and I put it up on YouTube (http://youtube.com/TrutherD1)! You are exposed, sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxNeoXkL0mM

Just watch 30 seconds of the above video. This is not normal.

stompk
11-21-2009, 06:47 PM
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/minnis.jpg

DR. PATRICK MINNIS, Climate Sciences Branch, NASA Langley Research Center, Mail Stop 420, Hampton, VA 23681.
Born in Shawnee, Oklahoma. Raised in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma graduating from Casady School in 1968.
1991 Ph.D., University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT, Meteorology 1978 M.S., Colorado State University, Ft. Collins, CO, Atmospheric Science 1972
B.E., Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN, Materials Science & Metallurgical Engineering, Senior Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Science Directorate,
1981-1986, Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Materials Application and Technology Division,
1977-1981, Research Engineer, Kentron International,
1972-1975, Product Engineer, Ferro Fiberglass.


.

Is it just me, or does government shill Patrick Minnis look like balloon boys Dad?

TrutherD
11-21-2009, 06:48 PM
Is it just me, or does government shill Patrick Minnis look like balloon boys Dad?
He kind of reminds me of Stephen Harper - just another globalist patsy.

JazzRoc
11-21-2009, 07:07 PM
Thanks for your reasoning.

It's GREAT EVIDENCE. :eek:

TrutherD
11-21-2009, 07:08 PM
Thanks for your reasoning.

It's GREAT EVIDENCE.
In my view, weighing everything already discussed completely rules out your suggestion as the sole cause of what we are experiencing around the world in all climates, temperatures, altitudes and humidity levels.


PLEASE LEARN TO UNDERSTAND SCIENCE BEFORE YOUR IGNORANCE KILLS US ALL
Urging others to think for themselves will kill us all? Unsurprising words from someone who claims to WANT a totalitarian police state.
You and your clones are an anarchic force of truly mindless social destruction and appear to be the precursors of the next dark age.
In a properly-civilized society (which this one certainly isn't) you'd be hunted down and your criminal neurones whacked before you committed further harm.
You got me. I'm really here to kill everybody. THAT is why I devote my time to uncovering and divulging natural and suppressed health remedies, and spend countless hours and hundreds of dollars spreading documentary DVDs with links to blogs and videos that do not have ANY ads. I'm misleading people. They really NEED more synthetic band-aid drugs, tests and treatments that cause and prolong suffering and result in death. They should watch mainstream TV endlessly, allowing the subliminal suggestions found throughout newscasts, tv shows and commercials to bypass their logic and condition them to accept ongoing and coming monstrosities. Just by exposing other options, I am denying them that right. They are weak, and cannot choose what is best for themselves. They need to be told what to do, by the government and people like you, and anyone suggesting otherwise should be silenced. I should be arrested, tortured and raped endlessly for my crimes against humanity.

The ONLY ones I am a threat to are the established norms of corporatism, greed, exploitation, isolation, suppression, poison and mind control.

I hope with my efforts such evil will never overcome compassion, brotherhood, creativity, knowledge and most of all FREEDOM and equal rights.

Sound REASONable? :confused:

TrutherD
11-21-2009, 11:05 PM
Here's what it will look like all over the world when the New World Order is defeated:
YouTube - Let Mr Blue Sky In - Flashmob Cork
Joy in the streets! :D

TrutherD
11-22-2009, 02:36 AM
I have a dark field biological microscope so I decided to take a look at the chemtrail rain-water. I've created a video showing what I believe are red and white fibers and/or slivers. Resolution changes between 100x and 40x, as I didn't want to go any closer without a cover slip (I kept it off to try to reduce contamination and view more of a "live" sample). Watch this puppy in full screen HD!
YouTube - Chemtrail Rain Water Microscope Analysis Red Fibers

stompk
11-22-2009, 06:32 AM
I have a dark field biological microscope so I decided to take a look at the chemtrail rain-water. I've created a video showing what I believe are red and white fibers and/or slivers. Resolution changes between 100x and 40x, as I didn't want to go any closer without a cover slip (I kept it off to try to reduce contamination and view more of a "live" sample). Watch this puppy in full screen HD!
YouTube - Chemtrail Rain Water Microscope Analysis Red Fibers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alishyvqDOw)

Wow, those fibers. What the freck? And we're breathing that shit. No wonder disease is rampant.

JazzRoc
11-22-2009, 09:34 AM
“Contrails to Cirrus—Morphology, Microphysics, and Radiative Properties”:

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf

"Remarks—Climatic impact
It is interesting that the mean optical depth found in this case (0.35) corresponds to that found in climatological satellite measurements by Ponater et al. (2002) and Minnis et al. (2004), and that the microphysical properties are consistent with a wide range of observations and models by prior authors. Accordingly, it is appropriate to speculate on their effect on climate.
The issue of the impact of contrail-generated cirrus (CS) on climate change has been treated by a number of investigators.
Sassen (1997) suggested that the unusually small particles typical of many persistent contrails might favor the albedo cooling over the greenhouse warming. Using a 2D mesoscale cloud model, Khvorostyanov and Sassen (1998) computed the distribution of the mean crystal radius, concentration, and ice water content of a contrail after 30 minutes of development.
They found a twofold effect. At the surface, the net greenhouse minus albedo effect was negative with a cooling of 15 Watts per square meter.
However, at the top of the atmosphere (corresponding to the entire atmospheric column), the net effect was a warming of 8 Watts per square meter.
We note that the latter simulation for the early stage of the cloud produced very large concentrations of small crystals, and that the longwave warming would be increased relative to the shortwave cooling, with the much larger particles, such as are found in the present study.
An evaluation of the effects of contrail cirrus over the globe is complex because of the great geographic and diurnal variability of air traffic, the variability of optical thickness and persistence of the clouds, the background brightness, and the natural changes in ambient humidity (Minnis 2003).
There are also a number of feedback mechanisms at play that climate models have not dealt with very well.
The finding that the vertical motions accompanying the transformation to cirrus also increase the humidity above the contrail is one such factor (Jensen et al. 1998). Nevertheless, using results from a general circulation model simulation of contrails, Minnis et al. (2004) found that the cirrus trends resulting from contrails in the United States are estimated to cause a tropospheric warming of 0.2– 0.3C per decade, a range that includes the observed trend of 0.27C per decade between 1975 and 1994. One must emphasize that, even if correct, this is a regional effect.
We may summarize the various studies as follows:
1) regional effects in the 1990s in the United States and Europe have a cover of 0.5%–2% with a maximum over Europe of 0.35%, and warming of 0.1–0.2 W per square metre, and
2) global effects that are about 0.1 of the regional values.
These estimates are based upon the work of Minnis et al. (1998), Ponater et al. (2002), Palikonda et al. (2002), and Minnis et al. (2004).
The latter authors also project an aircraft scenario for 2050 that would produce a regional radiative forcing of 1.5 Watts per square metre over Europe, a global coverage of 0.5%, and a radiative forcing of 0.05 Watts per square metre. In short, the present-day effects are significant regionally but in the noise globally. Further research is necessary to assess factors such as the amount of cirrus that is initiated by the contrails but not distinguishable from natural cirrus.

Summary and Conclusions

This study of the transformation of contrails to cirrus uncinus (mares’ tails) was made possible by a fortuitous and unique combination of observations by a groundbased camera, a vertically pointing lidar, satellite imagery, and a new database of aircraft flight tracks. The photograph documented the metamorphosis of the contrails to cirrus and the formation of fallstreaks almost continuously along the contrails in directions consistent with the winds.
A novel method was developed to use the visible photograph with the lidar-measured cloud heights to obtain the true orientation of the contrails and fallstreaks, their spacing, and their dimensions.
Although the cirrus lines appeared to converge in the southwest, they were actually almost parallel to one another, oriented from about 232 to 52 and spaced about 4–5 km apart, as confirmed by the satellite image and by the time spacing of their passage over the lidar.
The flight tracks occurred in two corridors: the western corridor corresponded to flights from east coast cities to Atlanta and others in the general vicinity; the eastern corridor flights originated mostly from the same cities to destinations in Florida and the vicinity.
Although the flight tracks in each corridor followed nearly identical paths in sequence, their contrails separated in time and were advected to the southeast with the component of the wind normal to the trail. When the contrails passed over the lidar at GSFC each appeared as a cirrus uncinus cloud with a generator turret and fallstreak of ice crystals oriented nearly normal to the length of the contrail. Using the appropriate component of the wind to extrapolate backward in time, we were able to correlate each contrail at the lidar with a specific aircraft flight with a remarkable correlation coefficient of 0.99.
The older contrails from a few of the flights in the western corridor arrived at the lidar nearly simultaneously with the younger ones from the eastern corridor, thus producing broader contrail cirrus at the lidar. This is also manifested by the overlap of contrails in the eastern corridor as seen by the satellite. The lag between the initial formation and the time of first detection by MODIS is approx. 33 min. The 2 h required for the contrails from the western corridor to reach the lidar at GSFC is a measure of their minimum lifetime, because they persisted beyond GSFC. The lead author watched them for about 1–2 hours later in the afternoon.
Among other notable features of the contrails, which have formed at about -40C, are the convective turrets or generator cells of the cirrus uncinus that grow to 1–2-km horizontal size from the initial downward pendants created by the wake dynamics of the aircraft, as shown by other investigators. The pendants are composed of a large concentration of tiny ice crystals and large ice water content (IWC) and grow via heating by longwave radiation from the ground.
The brightness of the generator cells, comparable to that of warm cumulus, is also a result of the large concentration of tiny ice particles, as deduced from the lidar observations and by in situ sampling by prior authors.
The lidar observations provided three time–height profiles:
1) the attenuated lidar scattering ratio (ALSR)
2) the extinction coefficient (d)
3) the radar reflectivity factor (Z)
The slope of the fallstreaks provided particle fall speeds and an approximation to the particle median volume diameters (D0). The values of d and D0 lead to the IWC and to the parameter K = (d/IWC), the ratio of extinction to IWC. All of the values deduced are in reasonable agreement with those by other investigators. The vertical integrals of d and IWC provide the optical thickness T and ice water path (IWP), respectively.
The time-averaged values (over the 93-min period observed by the lidar) are Tau = 0.352 and <IWP> = 8.14 grams per square meter, and are dominated by the fallstreaks.
The average ice water per meter along the length of the contrail is 16 Kilograms (35.4 pounds) per meter, some three to four orders of magnitude (1,000 to 10,000 times) greater than the water vapor released by typical jet aircraft, also similar to previously reported values.
The net effect of the water and particles released by the aircraft results in a major inadvertent modification of the atmosphere under appropriate ambient conditions. Furthermore, the evaporation of the fallstreaks at lower levels indicates the downward transfer of moisture from the upper levels where the crystals have grown.
Although most investigators favor the finding that contrail cirrus produce atmospheric warming on regional scales in the United States and Europe, the impact on global warming is still in the noise. Should aircraft activity increase as projected, the global effects would become significant by 2050."

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/minnis.jpg
DR. PATRICK MINNIS, Climate Sciences Branch, NASA Langley Research Center, Mail Stop 420, Hampton, VA 23681.
Born in Shawnee, Oklahoma. Raised in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma graduating from Casady School in 1968.
1991 – Ph.D., University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT, Meteorology 1978 – M.S., Colorado State University, Ft. Collins, CO, Atmospheric Science
1972 – B.E., Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN, Materials Science & Metallurgical Engineering, Senior Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Science Directorate,
1981-1986, Research Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center Materials Application and Technology Division,
1977-1981, Research Engineer, Kentron International,
1972-1975, Product Engineer, Ferro Fiberglass.


Let us continue to what the research paper says: "CONTRAILS FORM INTO CLOUDS".

stompk
11-22-2009, 11:21 AM
The average ice water per meter along the length of the contrail is 16 Kilograms (35.4 pounds) per meter, some three to four orders of magnitude (1,000 to 10,000 times) greater than the water vapor released by typical jet aircraft, also similar to previously reported values.
The net effect of the water and particles released by the aircraft results in a major inadvertent modification of the atmosphere under appropriate ambient conditions.

Please explain exactly what the particles are.

Why is the water per meter in a contrail 1000-10000 (there's some exact science) greater than the water vapor released by "typical" aircraft.

What is the difference between typical and atypical aircraft?

You just debunked yourself.

TrutherD
11-22-2009, 03:10 PM
Could those fibers I spotted (http://www.clubconspiracy.com/forum/f30/contrails-cannot-form-into-clouds-proof-6218-13.html#post63183) be similar to the ones coming out of people's skin in the documentary "The Ultimate Chemtruth"?

The Ultimate CHEMTRUTH: Chemtrails, Morgellons Disease, and Global Depopulation

I'll likely do some more darkfield analysis later on today.

JazzRoc
11-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Please explain exactly what the particles are.
Partially-burnt and unburnt hydrocarbon molecules and soot particles.
No combustion process is EVER complete when the oxidant gas (oxygen) is DILUTED 1:4 by a relatively inert gas (nitrogen).

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/combustion.gif

Why is the water per meter in a contrail 1000-10000 (there's some exact science) greater than the water vapor released by "typical" aircraft.
The atmosphere is INEXACT in that it doesn't conform to your ideas of what it should be. Being natural it is continuously variable.
Stratospheric layers are always found to be PROGRESSIVELY WARMER with increasing altitude away from the tropopause. Their humidity (and therefore their saturation with respect to ice) is somewhat variable along their length and particularly variable from layer to layer.
Hence the "chemtrails on - chemtrails off" myth.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/atmprofile.gif

The amount of water that can exist as vapor in a given volume is proportional to the temperature. When the amount of water vapor is in equilibrium above a flat surface of water the level of vapor pressure is called saturation and the relative humidity is 100%. At this equilibrium there are equal numbers of molecules evaporating from the water as there are condensing back into the water. If the relative humidity becomes greater than 100%, it is called supersaturated. Supersaturation occurs in the absence of condensation nuclei, for example the flat surface of water.
Since the saturation vapor pressure is proportional to temperature, cold air has a lower saturation point than warm air. The difference between these values is the basis for the formation of clouds. When saturated air cools, it can no longer contain the same amount of water vapor. If the conditions are right, the excess water will condense out of the air until the lower saturation point is reached. Another possibility is that the water stays in vapor form, even though it is beyond the saturation point, resulting in supersaturation.
Supersaturation of more than 1-2% relative to water is rarely seen in the atmosphere. For high levels of supersaturation there must be no condensation nuclei for the water vapor to condense on.
Supersaturation can also occur relative to ice. This is much more common in the atmosphere than supersaturation relative to water. Water droplets are able to maintain supersaturation relative to ice (remain as liquid water droplets and not freeze) because of the high surface tension of each microdroplet, which prevents them from expanding to form larger ice crystals. Without ice nuclei supercooled liquid water droplets can exist down to about −40 C (−40.0 F), at which point they will spontaneously freeze.
Cloud physics - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_physics#Supersaturation)

What is the difference between typical and atypical aircraft?
The difference between THIS (TYPICAL):

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/2276407011_5e0743cc86.jpg

and THIS (ATYPICAL):

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/raptor.jpg

The fractionally-lower combustion efficiency of the fighter aircraft (typically powered by long twin-spool turbojet engines with reheat, as opposed to the high bypass ratio turbofan engines of a modern passenger aircraft) leads to it producing a slightly less humid trail. This will lead to a slight reduction in trail density in most situations.
There are photos of an Airbus flying alongside a Boeing 707 showing the Airbus laying down a trail while the 707 does not.

You just debunked yourself.
No. I just debunked THIS THREAD.

It's taken you a while to respond properly (in a very small way) to my first post. You have a long way to go...

stompk
11-22-2009, 05:57 PM
How convenient of you to leave out PM2.5 (particulate matter, 2.5 nanometre).


The operation of jet engines results in the release of HC, CO,
NOx, sulfur dioxide (SO2), and particulate matter.
...
Aerial deposition of particulates from jet exhaust may adversely
affect the environment, as well as human health.
...
Heavy metals associated
with these aerosols have been shown to adversely affect several
plant species (10) and some animals (11,12).

http://www.areco.org/pdf/ParticulateEmissionsJetEngines1996.pdf

But you well know about the particulates, don't you. How honest of you (not) to include them in your fancy formulas.

TrutherD
11-22-2009, 06:12 PM
Ask yourself one question. Why would anyone spend so much time ridiculing and discrediting those who believe in chemtrails? Surely a few "crazy conspiracy theorists" are no threat to their world. JazzRoc is either an obsessive-compulsive delusional or a paid shadow-government-affiliated troll. The only threat to him is the truth.

stompk
11-22-2009, 06:14 PM
Ask yourself one question. Why would anyone spend so much time ridiculing and discrediting those who believe in chemtrails? Surely a few "crazy conspiracy theorists" are no threat to their world. JazzRoc is either an obsessive-compulsive delusional or a paid shadow-government-affiliated troll.

Well, we know the answer to that. It's both!

He keeps the thread alive, so he serves a purpose.

JazzRoc
11-22-2009, 07:14 PM
@ stomptrutherDuh

How convenient of you to leave out PM2.5 (particulate matter, 2.5 nanometre). But you well know about the particulates, don't you. How honest of you (not) to include them in your fancy formulas.
And what's that got to do with "Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)"?
Trace elements, even radioactive ones, are present in ALL fossil fuels.
You had better turn off your heating and sell your transportation and take to riding a bicycle and wearing thicker pullovers before you DIE of hypocrisy.
Haven't you noticed that the road outside is a source of greater danger?
The stuff seeping through the cracks in the doors and windows - the heated air from sub-floor gas heaters. Hell, you'd better buy a GASMASK.

Ask yourself one question. Why would anyone spend so much time ridiculing and discrediting those who believe in chemtrails? Surely a few "crazy conspiracy theorists" are no threat to their world. JazzRoc is either an obsessive-compulsive delusional or a paid shadow-government-affiliated troll. The only threat to him is the truth.
And what's that got to do with "Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)"?
From now on I shall use "H" to stand for the word "hypocrisy", because you make me have to type it all the time.
The western world has been subject to a dumbing-down process brought about by a right wing counter-revolution begun in the late sixties after a generally left-wing revolution which began in the mid-sixties. I know because I was there.
You are the product of it, I'm sorry I couldn't stop it, but here you are, and we have to deal with it. Even if you obtained a modest scholastic success by age eighteen, any educated Chinese person half your age will be superior to you in intellect.
You lack the means to handle truth. (Jack Nicholson springs to mind, suddenly.)

Well, we know the answer to that. It's both! He keeps the thread alive, so he serves a purpose.
And what's that got to do with "Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)"?
My purpose is to show you truth, and to show others how YOU fail to handle it. That's good enough for me. Thanks for helping.

TrutherD
11-22-2009, 07:23 PM
Blah, blah, blah. This does nothing to explain segmented trails, trails starting and stopping, X patterns, grids, close parallel lines, etc. etc. as seen in hundreds of thousands of videos around the web.

YouTube - 720p HD Stitching the Sky Timelapse Jet trails Remake

JazzRoc will only convince a few gullible sheep. Hardly seems worth it.

BlueAngel
11-23-2009, 01:24 AM
Thank goodness for all these chemtrail/contrail experts on the forum.

I don't know what we'd do without them.

They have completely cleared up any unresolved questions I've had as to whether or not chemtrails are harmful or not.

:eek:

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 01:39 AM
They have completely cleared up any unresolved questions I've had as to whether or not chemtrails are harmful or not.
Are you having a bad day, BlueAngel? :o It seems you don't like what we're discussing here... I'm not sure if this is directed at me, stompk or JazzRoc... Should we create our own forum instead of writing here? :confused:

If a fraction of the evidence is true, yes, they are harmful. Chemtrails are said to most commonly contain aluminum, barium and microorganisms. Inhaling ANY particulate matter is not very good for you.

So what you want to do is:

1. Eat flax/fish oil to help your brain remove aluminum (it crosses the blood-brain barrier)

2. Eat potassium-rich foods or supplements, to detoxify barium

3. Eat garlic, take oil of oregano and/or ionic colloidal silver regularly.

Much of this is mentioned in the documentary "Aerosol Crimes" where a natural health doctor is interviewed at length. I highly recommend it. :D

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2815320198655156407

...and of course practice other natural health solutions (http://nworesearch.blogspot.com/2009/10/they-control-your-health.html).

BlueAngel
11-23-2009, 01:48 AM
Are you having a bad day, BlueAngel? :o If a fraction of the evidence is true, yes, they are harmful. Chemtrails are said to most commonly contain aluminum, barium and microorganisms.

So what you want to do is:

1. Eat flax/fish oil to help your brain remove aluminum (it crosses the blood-brain barrier)

2. Eat potassium-rich foods or supplements, to detoxify barium

3. Eat garlic, take oil of oregano and/or ionic colloidal silver regularly.

Much of this is mentioned in the documentary "Aerosol Crimes".

I'm having a wonderful day!

I just popped my fish oil; I'm eating potassum-rich foods, eating garlic by the cloves; taking oil of oregano and/or ionic colloidal silver regularly because you have advised me to do so in your capacity as an expert in the field of chemtrails and how to counteract the harmful effects of same.

I always follow the instructions of all anonymous posters on an internet forum because I believe everything they tell me.

:eek:

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 01:52 AM
So you're still confused about whether chemtrails are harmful? Surely there is enough in this thread for you to make a decision? Or do you just come in every now and then and harass posters for fun? :D What questions do you have?

BlueAngel
11-23-2009, 01:56 AM
So you're still confused about whether chemtrails are harmful? Surely there is enough in this thread for you to make a decision? Or do you just come in every now and then and harass posters for fun? :D

No.

I'm not confused.

I couldn't care less about chemtrails and, I assure you, I'm not in the minority.

FYI, there isn't anything that you or anyone else has contributed on his thread that would allow most people to make a decision for or against chemtrails and, like I said, most people couldn't care less.

You and everyone else who has posted their opinions regarding this matter are anonymous posters on an Internet forum with an opinion about chemtrails according to what YOU believe to be the truth about this phenomenon and that's about it.

No more and no less.

My goodness, I post ONE comment and you accuse me of harrassment.

I think not!

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 02:03 AM
Well there was at least some undue sarcasm, you have to admit. :P I was hoping you could add something to the conversation here. It's always good to get more input. I'm convinced something is happening so I'm taking steps to protect myself from the most logical suspects. Not everyone is going to feel the same way. Enjoy the remainder of your day.

BlueAngel
11-23-2009, 02:08 AM
Well there was at least some undue sarcasm, you have to admit. :P I was hoping you could add something to the conversation here. It's always good to get more input. I'm convinced something is happening so I'm taking steps to protect myself from the most logical suspects. Not everyone is going to feel the same way. Enjoy the remainder of your day.

My sarcasm is never undue so I will never admit to it.

I have added to the conversation.

So sorry it wasn't to your liking.

Yes.

Please take steps to protect yourself.

When you look up in the sky and see those chemtrails reigning down upon you, please, pop a few more fish oils and eat a couple extra cloves of garlic.

I'm sure this will protect you from those deadly chemicals that they're spraying from the back of planes.

Peace out, BRO!

BlueAngel
11-23-2009, 03:12 AM
TrutherD said:

Are you having a bad day, BlueAngel? :o It seems you don't like what we're discussing here... I'm not sure if this is directed at me, stompk or JazzRoc... Should we create our own forum instead of writing here? :confused:

If a fraction of the evidence is true, yes, they are harmful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you kidding me?

If you seriously believe that because I, or anyone else, who is a member of this forum posts a comment on this thread which is viewed by you as "you don't like what we're discussing here" and you interpret this to mean that you should start your own forum, by all means, don't let me stop you.

Ever hear of Freedom of Speech?

It exists here on CC.

Deal with it.

Don't like it.

Start your own forum.

JazzRoc
11-23-2009, 04:32 AM
Heads-up, boys and girls: it's time to start thinking again...

Stompk has proposed that contrails cannot turn into clouds.

I have produced evidence (PROOF) that they CAN and they DO, with photographs, LIDAR readings, calculations and predictions. Made by a TEAM of scientists. I have a list of a further 153 scientific papers with Minnis (the "shill") on different teams. But there's NO reason to suppose that I cannot find more.

Were the three of you (now) scientists ( :D ), this would be OVER, finished, a done deal. Whatever else remained of your "chemtrail theory", the proposition that contrails cannot turn into clouds COULDN'T remain part of it.

Scientists MOVE ON. That's why you live in the relatively comfortable and safe world you have.

People with belief systems CANNOT move on, for they CANNOT discard false ideas. For instance, a Creationist "science book" may ask you to look at Nature (which is great), but it can only accept and incorporate everything already discovered by scientific research, which it wouldn't itself have conducted, and point to GAPS in as-yet-undiscovered knowledge with the words "God did it". Not only that, but it is COMPLETELY unable to formulate new theories and test them with experiments. A few hundred years ago, conducting science might cause you to watch your entrails burning in the fire that consumed you. Ask Giordano Bruno when you get to Hell.

The problem with chemtrail theory is that you start with the theory, and then pick and choose facts, and narrowly interpret information in a way that fits the theory. The problem is that you can do that for ANY theory. Just constantly refine your interpretation so it is always correct.

Real science does not work like that. It starts with the facts, and then considers all possible explanations, and narrows in on the theory that fits the facts, rather than picking and adjusting the facts that fit the theory.

You appear to be unable to deal with the debunking. It doesn't surprise me. What DOES surprise me a little, Blue Angel, is you appear to concur with this CHANGE IN THREAD TOPIC. I was under the impression you were the moderator here. Aren't you? Who is?

So, to the NEW TOPIC, then.

This does nothing to explain segmented trails, trails starting and stopping
WRONG. We have covered this in the paper. You just couldn't see the wood for the trees.

To simplify this I'll give you a SIMPLE ANALOGY.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/ge_engine2.jpg

Modern turbofans are EXQUISITE pieces of machinery, easily on a par with the finest modern aircraft airframes, or intricate Martian Rovers, the Hubble Telescope, and leading microchips. Their performance is perfectly consistent, and they run using a carefully selected fuel chosen for its low flash point and filtered so that NO solids are present to erode the FURNACES which are their combustion chambers, and the densely-packed exhaust turbine sets which drives their fans and compressor turbines. They run, as they say, "like watches".

Running, as they do, perfectly smoothly, and unaffected by variable rain/water vapor entry (except to increase their thrust a little when a fine water mist enters them), they act like a SCANNER/PRINTER. They SCAN the entry air and PRINT OUT its humidity. Dry air -> no trail at all. Slightly wetter air -> short trail. Wetter air still -> longer trail still. Saturated air -> thin, but persistent trail. Supersaturated air -> persistent trail progressively increasing over time until it falls out of the supersaturated stratospheric layer.

X patterns, grids, close parallel lines, etc. etc. as seen in hundreds of thousands of videos around the web.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/bfa-flightpath7501.jpg
On any given day, more than 87,000 flights are in the skies in the United States. Only one-third are commercial carriers, like American, United or Southwest. On an average day, air traffic controllers handle 28,537 commercial flights (major and regional airlines), 27,178 general aviation flights (private planes), 24,548 air taxi flights (planes for hire), 5,260 military flights and 2,148 air cargo flights (Federal Express, UPS, etc.). At any given moment, roughly 5,000 planes are in the skies above the United States. In one year, controllers handle an average of 64 million takeoffs and landings.

YouTube - National Air Traffic 24 hours

Now YOU tell me HOW the above CANNOT produce "X patterns, grids, close parallel lines, etc. etc. as seen in hundreds of thousands of videos around the web".

Do they FLY AROUND EACH OTHER?

ALL aircraft, civil or military, are subject to FLIGHT RULES and AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL. They are directed along CORRIDORS and strictly held to MAINTAINED ALTITUDES. Except for small, low-range, LOCAL air traffic, all planes fly in the stratosphere between around 28,000 feet and 39,000 feet.

Long-range aircraft deviating from this are either in serious trouble, or BREAKING FLIGHT RULES. In either case, the local airport radar will pick it up, there is some state of EMERGENCY, and some risk of COLLISION. The aircraft will have descended into UNCONTROLLED FLIGHT SPACE, be subject to VISUAL FLIGHT RULES, and may accidentally meet light aircraft which may NOT be fitted with FLIGHT TRANSPONDERS which show up on Air Traffic Control screens.

ANY "chemtrailer" claim that trails were being made at LOW ALTITUDE is HIGHLY SUSPECT. Alarm bells would be ringing like crazy in every local airport AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL center.

The truth of it is that the trail, having been made between six and eight miles up, may fall up to TWO MILES vertically downwards (unless sheared by layer crosswinds) before it evaporates. In that time it can grow to several miles WIDE. This will give the ILLUSION of being LOW DOWN.

They have completely cleared up any unresolved questions I've had as to whether or not chemtrails are harmful or not.
It shouldn't have done.

It SHOULD, however, have cleared up the question as to whether contrails turned into clouds or not.

And it seems to have answered the question as to whether you can moderate or not.
.

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 05:01 AM
JazzRoc, You must be joking! "Normal" flights most certainly do NOT follow the patterns seen in videos around the net. Nor do they systematically turn their trails on and off to create perfectly formed grids of upwards of 9 x 9, creating completely expansive artificial cloud cover! Nor do they repeatedly fly through little tiny gaps in the clouds leaving a trail JUST in those spots, which then thins out into a noticeably artificial haze. Anyone with common sense can see that this is a methodical system of artificial cloud creation.

The people must wake up and face the reality of huge amounts of metallic particles and god-knows-what-else in the air.

JazzRoc
11-23-2009, 05:12 AM
So you're still confused about whether chemtrails are harmful? Surely there is enough in this thread for you to make a decision? Or do you just come in every now and then and harass posters for fun? :D What questions do you have?
It is YOU that seems to be confused.

The title of this thread is "Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)"

It is NOT "are 'chemtrails' harmful?"

JazzRoc
11-23-2009, 05:26 AM
"Normal" flights most certainly do NOT follow the patterns seen in videos around the net.
You appear to be conceptually challenged. Good luck with that.

Nor do they systematically turn their trails on and off to create perfectly formed grids of upwards of 9 x 9, creating completely expansive artificial cloud cover!
And again... Prevailing winds don't exist, do they? That's why we don't have a word for them, isn't it?

Nor do they repeatedly fly through little tiny gaps in the clouds leaving a trail JUST in those spots, which then thins out into a noticeably artificial haze. Anyone with common sense can see that this is a methodical system of artificial cloud creation.
LOL!

So they KNOW in advance where a gap is going to open up in a cloud over your head, AND FROM THREE MILES ABOVE THE CLOUD TOPS, ALIGN THE TRAIL SO YOU CAN PERSONALLY FILM IT! R-O-F-L !!!! Hey, that's FUNNY !!! I just KNEW if I worked hard you'd turn up with comedy...

The people must wake up and face the reality of huge amounts of metallic particles and god-knows-what-else in the air.
Ah, vaunting your ignorance again...

When large volcanic eruptions take place (Pinatubo, for instance) HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF TONS OF FINE ASH enter the atmosphere.

Volcanic ash - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_ash)


Yet two years later ALL TRACE of such eruptions is GONE. Most is gone within WEEKS. The high stratosphere (higher than ANY aircraft can fly) is not so well-endowed with water, so traces of the finest ash (molecules, really) tend to linger. Even they finally drop - by downward transport through Hadley Cell motion.

Atmospheric circulation - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_circulation)

You MUST have gathered by now that fine particles NUCLEATE raindrops, which fall to earth.

Reach around that empty head of yours, connect up a few (non-criminal) neurones, and try to figure if there's ANY sense in your last statement. You must do this for yourself.
.

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 06:38 AM
Let the viewer decide.

YouTube - Chemtrails Maple Ridge Pitt Meadows BC Nov 17 2009 (Audio Fix = No ads!)

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 07:00 AM
With all these old trolls around, it's a good thing I don't need ratings since I distribute hundreds of flyers and DVDs with my link on it.

JazzRoc will you comment on these fibers I found in 3 big raindrops?

YouTube - Chemtrail Rain Water Darkfield Microscope Analysis Red Fibers 40x 100x

PS. Don't push me to create 20 YouTube accounts. I'm younger and faster than you! :P

TrutherD
11-23-2009, 07:32 AM
Wow look at that 20 votes down on all my videos! Look how aggressive these trolls are. What could possibly be their motive? Hmmm... Perhaps GLOBAL ENSLAVEMENT. :D Too bad the cat's out of the bag for good! I'll resist stooping to their level. For now. :)

They can ridicule and distract and rate and vote all day long, but they can't stop you from talking to your friends about it over coffee. Expose the New World Order. It is our only hope to take back this planet for the people. The more we expose the NWO the less damage it will cause as it goes down. If we fail to stop it, they will twist the world into something reminiscent of Hitler. Millions or even billions (more) will perish or become guinea pigs for their sick experiments. Already, untold millions are suffering worldwide. You and I are suffering right now. Our food, water, air, health care, everything is poisoned by these soulless, power-hungry maniacs. They have gotten where they are by exploiting every last one of us for centuries. They do not deserve the world. The people need to take it back.

Humanity is at an epic crossroads. The one thing they cannot fight with all of their money, power and resources is the truth. For the time being, we have the ability to spread that truth. Will we take advantage of the opportunity, stand up and break free of our captors?

One of my fav. NWO films:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-CrNlilZho

JazzRoc
11-23-2009, 09:29 AM
JazzRoc will you comment on these fibers I found in 3 big raindrops?
I have.

Don't push me to create 20 YouTube accounts. I'm younger and faster than you!
Why would I do that? :confused: I concede you're younger...

JazzRoc
11-24-2009, 09:12 AM
JazzRoc will you comment on these fibers I found in 3 big raindrops?
Thanks for asking me a question and blocking me.

Nice.

TrutherD
11-24-2009, 02:48 PM
Thanks for asking me a question and blocking me.
Not interested in wasting time with your misleading posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prW7v5COQDI

JazzRoc
11-25-2009, 05:20 AM
Not interested in wasting time with your misleading posts.
Seek treatment for your condition. :mad:

JazzRoc
11-26-2009, 11:19 AM
I just want to say that this forum is interesting
Thanks, Stunaraid.

who also think so and what you especially like?
Could you rephrase that?

Where do you live? Roughly, that is. LOL! :)

stompk
11-28-2009, 09:27 AM
Here is some more subliminal chemtrail programming.

YouTube - ASIANA AIRLINES COMMERCIAL 2009

JazzRoc
11-29-2009, 01:23 PM
Here is some more subliminal chemtrail programming.
A misuse of both the words "subliminal" (meaning so brief as to go unrecorded by the conscious brain processes) and "programming" (the entering of an activity sequence).
And also an attempt to create a slanderous myth. Par for the course for the lowest of the paronoid sleaze-world.

albie
11-30-2009, 06:44 AM
I proclaim this thread well and truly debunked. Not a spot of credible bunk to be found.

stompk
12-01-2009, 08:26 AM
I proclaim this thread well and truly debunked. Not a spot of credible bunk to be found.

As long as the chemtrails keep happening, this thread will never be debunked.

What we have done is show proof. The rest rests on the shoulders of the individual.

What have you done for your neighbor lately?

TrutherD and I have taken hours upon hours of our time researching this to understand the chemicals used, routes taken, planes used, etc.

It's top secret, so of course it's going to be hard to prove. But the truth of something this big cannot be hidden forever.

Climategate, is the result of the Chemtrail coverup, and that truth will soon become apparent.

JazzRoc
12-01-2009, 11:07 AM
As long as the chemtrails keep happening, this thread will never be debunked. What we have done is show proof.
Yes. You PROVED the existence of persistant contrails. Thanks lads, but we knew already.

The rest rests on the shoulders of the individual. What have you done for your neighbor lately? TrutherD and I have taken hours upon hours of our time researching this to understand
But you have NO understanding. You cannot understand your own confirmation bias for a start. Let alone the behaviour of the atmosphere. Or how an aircraft works.

the chemicals used, routes taken, planes used, etc. It's top secret, so of course it's going to be hard to prove. But the truth of something this big cannot be hidden forever. Climategate, is the result of the Chemtrail coverup, and that truth will soon become apparent.
Yes sirree, roll up, roll up. The truth as these lads see it will all be revealed to you shortly.

HOW TO RUN A CONTRAIL SCARE FOR FUN AND PROFIT just down the page titled "Here" a while. Jay Reynold's original article, with no revisions required. You can't beat the original...

Here JazzRoc vs “Chemtrails” (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/2008/11/02/20-here/)

albie
12-02-2009, 09:09 AM
Which points haven't been tackled by Jazzroc? Why do you still believe? Even if Jazzroc only shakes your belief in the evidence then that surely must tell you something.

The guy who started this thread has been shown to not understand science. He ASKED for us to point out his errors. We did.

stompk
12-03-2009, 07:56 AM
Which points haven't been tackled by Jazzroc? Why do you still believe? Even if Jazzroc only shakes your belief in the evidence then that surely must tell you something.

The guy who started this thread has been shown to not understand science. He ASKED for us to point out his errors. We did.

Why is it that one can see your breath at around 20f and the appleman chart says it
needs to be -45f for a contrail to form?

If human breathing and jet exhaust are just water vapor, please explain the difference.

JazzRoc
12-03-2009, 09:13 AM
Why is it that one can see your breath at around 20f and the appleman chart says it needs to be -45f for a contrail to form? If human breathing and jet exhaust are just water vapor, please explain the difference.
The difference is in the temperature of the water vapor emitter in each case, and the temperatures in each case of the ambient conditions.

Turbojet exhaust water vapor at 2000 deg F is an IGNITION source. It's arriving into air at -40 deg F, and freezing into microscopically-fine ice crystals which will either remain or evaporate depending whether the ambient air is "wet" or "dry" (the degree to which it is saturated). Contrails have been known to form at warmer temperatures than -45, so the Appleman Chart is somewhat rough and ready.

Water vapor will condense out of one's breath at 20 deg F. But the water droplets which are formed evaporate again because your ambient air at 20 deg F was relatively warm, and much less humid than it was a moment before, when it was in amongst your 100% humid exhalation, and water evaporates more easily in just such conditions. It's different at the North and the South Pole. The temperatures are low enough there to freeze out nearly all the water - permanently.

Evaporation is an equilibrative process. At any point in time, there are roughly as many water molecules evaporating as condensing. The humid column of your exhaled air rises from the water droplet cloud which condensed from it, leaving the droplet cloud at the mercy of the drier ambient air. Pfft.

Leaving your personal aerosols floating as fine particulate matter... ...it's those you need to worry about, believe me.

The unusual properties of water merit years of study.

stompk
12-03-2009, 05:33 PM
So, when the baggage handler on the tarmac can see his breath, and the cars in the unloading zone have visible exhaust, what is your reason for jets on the taxi-way not having visible exhaust?

What I hear you saying is the jet exhaust is so much hotter.

Condensation occurs from the difference between exhaust temp (breath, jet exhaust) and ambient temperature. Therefore jets on the ground should show visible exhaust, like a car, when it's 20f and below, if the world worked as the way you suggest with you pseudo-science.

JazzRoc
12-04-2009, 06:06 AM
So, when the baggage handler on the tarmac can see his breath, and the cars in the unloading zone have visible exhaust, what is your reason for jets on the taxi-way not having visible exhaust? What I hear you saying is the jet exhaust is so much hotter. Condensation occurs from the difference between exhaust temp (breath, jet exhaust) and ambient temperature. Therefore jets on the ground should show visible exhaust, like a car, when it's 20f and below, if the world worked as the way you suggest with your pseudo-science.
I've already described the process. In the case of the plane the exhaust is moving at hundreds of feet per second, and mixing into a VERY much larger column of air. I've only seen that process take place personally in local conditions of driving rain. In normal conditions the air is insufficiently humid to support the condensing mist, which evaporates away. If your visible breath lasts for a brief period of time, then how much more brief (and further away from the onlooker) may the transition from invisible to visible and back again be for a jet exhaust which is so much quicker?

The jet exhaust is a violent mixer... ...that's the difference. But it is not the only mixer.

In the case of contrails, the aircraft's WAKE VORTEX gathers up the jet trails in counter-rotating spirals. These large vortices may entwine and form VORTEX RINGS. The downward-falling pendules of a massive persistent contrail form from these vortex motions. The whole process is described here:

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf (http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf)

... without a trace of pseudoscience.

stompk
12-04-2009, 07:49 AM
I've already described the process. In the case of the plane the exhaust is moving at hundreds of feet per second, and mixing into a VERY much larger column of air. I've only seen that process take place personally in local conditions of driving rain. In normal conditions the air is insufficiently humid to support the condensing mist, which evaporates away. If your visible breath lasts for a brief period of time, then how much more brief (and further away from the onlooker) may the transition from invisible to visible and back again be for a jet exhaust which is so much quicker?

The jet exhaust is a violent mixer... ...that's the difference. But it is not the only mixer.

In the case of contrails, the aircraft's WAKE VORTEX gathers up the jet trails in counter-rotating spirals. These large vortices may entwine and form VORTEX RINGS. The downward-falling pendules of a massive persistent contrail form from these vortex motions. The whole process is described here:

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf (http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf)

... without a trace of pseudoscience.

Sorry, but you are a liar.

JazzRoc
12-05-2009, 02:25 PM
Sorry, but you are a liar.
Spoken by a person who "works for God". Is THAT the truth? PROVE IT.

TrutherD
03-29-2010, 01:25 AM
1990 USAF Chemtrail document
Title Chemtrails, Chemistry 131 manual, fall 1991: course policies and laboratory manual
Author United States Air Force Academy. Dept. of Chemistry
Publisher Dept. of Chemistry, U.S. Air Force Academy, 1991
Length 232 pages
Subjects Chemistry

Search Results | National Library of Australia (http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Search/Home?lookfor=chemtrails)

Paid liars all over this forum, IMO

BlueAngel
03-29-2010, 01:48 AM
I am completely tired of hearing about chem trails from you and and all the other members of this forum whom insist that they cause dis-ease amongst the populace.

I have said on numerous occasions, and I stand by my words that Chem trails are nothing more than weather modification.

I don't approve, because manufactured weather modification can have dire consequences amongst the people and vegetative aspects of this planet.

The military/government cannot spray toxic chemicals from jets that do not affect THEM.

Therefore, to believe that whatever is coming out of the back of those planes can cause dis-ease amongst the populace, IMO, would be incorrect.

PERIOD.

So, do me a favor.

(1) Explain in detail the purpose of chemtrails, in your own words, without providing links from other sites and especially anything from Alex Jones.

Alex Jones is not worshipped on CC.

Thanking you in advance,

TrutherD
03-29-2010, 01:29 PM
Weather modification, you say?

- Do a search for "lack of sunlight" and see how many diseases it causes.
- Check what the EPA has to say about tiny particles and how poisonous they are
- Consider that less sunlight means LESS natural clouds and chemtrail particles are desiccant and dry out the atmosphere further. This causes a water shortage.

In searching for a new enemy to unite us [all of humanity], we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself.
-The First Global Revolution: A Report by the Council of The Club of Rome

Dire consequences, indeed.

BlueAngel
03-29-2010, 06:18 PM
As I said, weather modification can have dire consequences upon our planet and, as I also said, that is the purpose of chemtrials and, as I further stated, whatever is being sprayed by these jets are not chemicals.

Please check out water vapor.

Thank you for your post.

JazzRoc
03-30-2010, 06:03 AM
Paid liars all over this forum, IMO
Starting with YOU. How IS your income these days? Those CDs raking in the cash?

Do a search for "lack of sunlight" and see how many diseases it causes.
Find out how much disease is caused by a POINT TWO PERCENT reduction in solar irradiation.

Check what the EPA has to say about tiny particles and how poisonous they are.
Check what atmospheric science has to say about PARTICULATE TRANSPORT. Ask yourselves whatever happened to the hundreds of millions of tons of fine particulate ash that was emitted by the last volcanic eruptive event. At ANY TIME on Earth there are 1500 active volcanoes spewing out tons of poisonous gases and very fine ash 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week.

Consider that less sunlight means LESS natural clouds and chemtrail particles are desiccant and dry out the atmosphere further. This causes a water shortage.
Contrails (especially the heavy ones) are 99.99% PURE WATER. They have been tested and I have shown you the results.
Chemtrails are a MYTH propagated by TrutherD1 and other illiterate and innumerate morons.

I am completely tired of hearing about chem trails from you and and all the other members of this forum whom insist that they cause disease amongst the populace.
Amen to that.

I have said on numerous occasions, and I stand by my words that Chem trails are nothing more than weather modification.
That includes you in my "myth" statement above.

I don't approve, because manufactured weather modification can have dire consequences amongst the people and vegetative aspects of this planet.
Weather IS being MODIFIED every time you go somewhere or cook something. The combustion product CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The Earth is your greenhouse.

The military/government cannot spray toxic chemicals from jets that do not affect THEM.
Oh, yes they could! An essential element of military duty IS self-sacrifice. But would they? NO.

Therefore, to believe that whatever is coming out of the back of those planes can cause disease amongst the populace, IMO, would be incorrect.
Well, you're right here, but only by default.

As I said, weather modification can have dire consequences upon our planet and, as I also said, that is the purpose of chemtrials and, as I further stated, whatever is being sprayed by these jets are not chemicals.
Human beings ARE wreaking dire consequences on our planet, just by existing. You are adding a new batch of consequences with your ignorant misinformation.

Please check out water vapor.
That's the only sensible thing you have written.

“In searching for a new enemy to unite us [all of humanity], we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself.” -The First Global Revolution: A Report by the Council of The Club of Rome
THIS was written at the end of the sixties well before civil aviation was producing contrails. Well before "dumbing down". It's about SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY. Maybe the two of you haven't the IQ to grasp that.

Trails ARE a new component to Global Warming. 3.5% of it.

The OTHER 96.5% seems to have escaped you. Sensible people would be concerned with the 96.5%, idiots with the 3.5%.

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 10:12 AM
Paid liars all over this forum, IMO
Starting with YOU. How IS your income these days? Those CDs raking in the cash?

Do a search for "lack of sunlight" and see how many diseases it causes.
Find out how much disease is caused by a POINT TWO PERCENT reduction in solar irradiation.

Check what the EPA has to say about tiny particles and how poisonous they are.
Check what atmospheric science has to say about PARTICULATE TRANSPORT. Ask yourselves whatever happened to the hundreds of millions of tons of fine particulate ash that was emitted by the last volcanic eruptive event. At ANY TIME on Earth there are 1500 active volcanoes spewing out tons of poisonous gases and very fine ash 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week.

Consider that less sunlight means LESS natural clouds and chemtrail particles are desiccant and dry out the atmosphere further. This causes a water shortage.
Contrails (especially the heavy ones) are 99.99% PURE WATER. They have been tested and I have shown you the results.
Chemtrails are a MYTH propagated by TrutherD1 and other illiterate and innumerate morons.

I am completely tired of hearing about chem trails from you and and all the other members of this forum whom insist that they cause disease amongst the populace.
Amen to that.

I have said on numerous occasions, and I stand by my words that Chem trails are nothing more than weather modification.
That includes you in my "myth" statement above.

How would my above statement render me a moron? Spewing water from planes into the atmosphere causes weather changes and, if it is being done for this purpose, it would be referred to as weather modification. If it is not for weather modification, kindly inform the forum what the other reason would be for spewing 99.9% water from the back of planes and what comprises the other one percent?

I don't approve, because manufactured weather modification can have dire consequences amongst the people and vegetative aspects of this planet.
Weather IS being MODIFIED every time you go somewhere or cook something. The combustion product CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The Earth is your greenhouse.

Obviously, weather is modified in other ways. We are aware of these natural causes; however, spewing water from the back of planes, unless for some other reason than weather modification is not a natural cause. And, even if it were for some other reason, the effect would still involve modification of the weather.

The military/government cannot spray toxic chemicals from jets that do not affect THEM.
Oh, yes they could! An essential element of military duty IS self-sacrifice. But would they? NO.

Incorrect word usage on my part. Obviously, the military and goverment can spray whatever chemicals they want from jets, but, in this instance, IMO, they DO NOT in lieu of CANNOT.

Therefore, to believe that whatever is coming out of the back of those planes can cause disease amongst the populace, IMO, would be incorrect.
Well, you're right here, but only by default.

I'm right, but it is not due to default.

As I said, weather modification can have dire consequences upon our planet and, as I also said, that is the purpose of chemtrials and, as I further stated, whatever is being sprayed by these jets are not chemicals.
Human beings ARE wreaking dire consequences on our planet, just by existing. You are adding a new batch of consequences with your ignorant misinformation.

I have not added a new batch of consequences with any ignorant misinformation as I have not written any IGNORANT misinformation. However, kindly inform me as to what a "new bath of consequences" would be.

Please check out water vapor.
That's the only sensible thing you have written.

Your comment above is wrong and there isn't any need to refer to people on this forum as morons. We could say the same about you, but we don't.

“In searching for a new enemy to unite us [all of humanity], we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself.” -The First Global Revolution: A Report by the Council of The Club of Rome
THIS was written at the end of the sixties well before civil aviation was producing contrails. Well before "dumbing down". It's about SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY. Maybe the two of you haven't the IQ to grasp that.

Trails ARE a new component to Global Warming. 3.5% of it.

The OTHER 96.5% seems to have escaped you. Sensible people would be concerned with the 96.5%, idiots with the 3.5%.

Comments inside the box.

JazzRoc
03-30-2010, 04:12 PM
How would my above statement render me a moron?
I have already closed this subject. Combustion water leaving the exhausts of a modern civil transport aircraft can precipitate TEN THOUSAND times its weight of ice out of a supersaturated stratospheric layer. Thus the 180-ton fuel load of a transcontinental jumbo may be transformed into 1,800,000 tons of stratospheric ice.
I don't believe this has sunk in yet. Such a LONG, LONG time to appreciate this amount of ice suggests idiocy.

Spewing water from planes into the atmosphere causes weather changes and, if it is being done for this purpose, it would be referred to as weather modification.
It ISN'T done for this purpose, and at 3.5% ITS EFFECT ON GLOBAL WEATHER is statistically insignificant. It's in the thread.

If it is not for weather modification, kindly inform the forum what the other reason would be for spewing 99.9% water from the back of planes and what comprises the other one percent?
The other NOUGHT POINT NOUGHT ONE PERCENT? (You got it wrong! But actually I had rounded UP the amount.) The correct figure (when the biggest trails are deposited) will be 99.9994% PURE WATER. (That's probably better than your local tap water!)
The residual proportion (0.0006%) will be oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, only partially-burnt hydrocarbons, and soot. It's in the thread.

Obviously, weather is modified in other ways. We are aware of these natural causes.
I doubt it. There is NO SUCH THING AS WEATHER MODIFICATION. CLOUD SEEDING ISN'T WEATHER MODIFICATION.

however, spewing water from the back of planes, unless for some other reason than weather modification is not a natural cause.
Are you natural? I am. I have been an aircraft and gas turbine designer, quite naturally. Is kerosine natural? Yes. Are contrails natural (being made by naturally-existing machines made by naturally-existing people)? Of course they ******* are. They are certainly NOT supernatural. Man is natural. Man is a natural organizer of Nature. Science is the measure of Nature - which includes Man.
To hark back to "the good old days" is a severe mistake which brings one of the worst vices - irresponsibility - in its wake. Man needs to travel right now in order to improvise his way out of the situation he finds himself in. Situation management is a human skill. The more social movement and interaction (both required) the better, don't you think?

And, even if it were for some other reason, the effect would still involve modification of the weather.
It will take another forty years for aviation, expanding as it was a few years back, to significantly affect the weather. (I have already given you the science on this). At present the weather is NOT SIGNIFICANTLY MODIFIED. Mathematically, scientifically, SENSIBLY. Due to the future constriction in fossil fuel supplies* there is good reason to suppose that ALL aviation will level off (by 2030) to an amount which has NO significant effect on the Earth's atmosphere. Especially compared with power stations, industry, farting animals. rotting tundra, and active volcanoes (which total 11,500). *Which is a pity, for kerosine is almost a perfect fuel - though something non-poisonous and almost non-flammable would be better. :)

Incorrect word usage on my part. Obviously, the military and goverment can spray whatever chemicals they want from jets, but, in this instance, IMO, they DO NOT in lieu of CANNOT.
Fair doos.

I'm right, but it is not due to default.
Of course it is, if you have read and understood what I have already written in this thread. WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T.

I have not added a new batch of consequences with any ignorant misinformation as I have not written any IGNORANT misinformation. However, kindly inform me as to what a "new bath of consequences" would be.
Of course you have. You are saying aviation is harmful when it isn't. The social consequences of millions of "chicken littles" (by "Chemtrails" - non-existent "are nothing more than weather modification" - non-existent - you declare yourself to be one) are potentially HUGE. No good consequences here.

Your comment above is wrong and there isn't any need to refer to people on this forum as morons.
You have had long enough time to read and understand the science behind this. If you keep on making antiscientific and antisocial statements about aviation, what else are you? If you don't understand what I'm talking about, ask me. Don't keep on making the same false assertion.

We could say the same about you, but we don't.
Well, you couldn't, could you?
You haven't elaborately prepared a scientific argument for me to misunderstand and prattle rubbish about.
It's the other way round, n'est-ce pas?
Non-scientists so misunderstand science as to believe it is arguable. It isn't.
You either understand it, or you are TOTALLY WRONG.
People that persist in making false assertions after having been confronted with the truth (for AGES) ARE morons. We can all be one, and we can all STOP being one.

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 05:55 PM
I think you are purposely spreading misinformation.

Your comments are not very clear and/or concise, and, for the most part, they consist of angry ramblings.

JazzRoc said:

"There is NO SUCH THING AS WEATHER MODIFICATION. CLOUD SEEDING ISN'T WEATHER MODIFICATION."

III - WEATHER MODIFICATION: South African Research
The South African Weather Bureau got involved in cloud seeding as early as the late 1940's and early 1950's when in collaboration with the South African Air Force and the CSIR clouds were seeded in the Pretoria - Johannesburg with dry ice (CO2). During these experiments radar for the first time was utilized to determine any seeding effect. Unfortunately very little is known about the results of these experiments other than the fact that 9 storms were seeded. Other ad hoc experiments were also conducted in places like Ladysmith during this period. To put the South African cloud seeding research into perspective, distinct phases are identified, summarizing the progress that have been made through the years.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are very right.

You CAN stop being a moron.

Losing some of the anger would be a first step.

JazzRoc
03-30-2010, 06:06 PM
"Unfortunately very little is known about the results of these experiments other than the fact that 9 storms were seeded."
That's about one "storm" per year? What size "storm" might that be? Weather? You joke with me.
Cloud-seeding is and has been regularly undertaken in the midwest US for sixty years now. It is used to prevent large storms from building (by causing them to precipitate sooner than they otherwise would). This limits the hailstone size to that not large enough to damage crops. It's BIG BUSINESS and also a jolly good thing to do.
But is it weather modification?
Of course it ******* isn't.
"Weather" is what you get on your TV. You know, THE BIG STUFF - cyclones, anticyclones, fronts, winds, jetstreams, temperatures, precipitations (and you'll note that cloudseeding changes the NATURE of precipitation, not the AMOUNT)..

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation. You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now.

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 06:14 PM
BlueAngel said:

I have not added a new batch of consequences with any ignorant misinformation as I have not written any IGNORANT misinformation.
However, kindly inform me as to what a "new bath of consequences" would be.


JazzRoc said:

Of course you have. You are saying aviation is harmful when it isn't. The social consequences of millions of "chicken littles" (by "Chemtrails" - non-existent "are nothing more than weather modification" - non-existent - you declare yourself to be one) are potentially HUGE. No good consequences here.

----------------------------------------------------------

I never said that which you say I have.

Therefore, you are lieing.

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 06:17 PM
"Unfortunately very little is known about the results of these experiments other than the fact that 9 storms were seeded."
That's about one "storm" per year? What size "storm" might that be? Weather? You joke with me.
Cloud-seeding is and has been regularly undertaken in the midwest US for sixty years now. It is used to prevent large storms from building (by causing them to precipitate sooner than they otherwise would). This limits the hailstone size to that not large enough to damage crops. It's BIG BUSINESS and also a jolly good thing to do.
But is it weather modification?
Of course it ******* isn't.
"Weather" is what you get on your TV. You know, THE BIG STUFF - cyclones, anticyclones, fronts, winds, jetstreams, temperatures, precipitations..

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation. You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now.

That was one bit of information.

There's plenty more available regarding cloud-seeding.

Do a search and than re-calculate.

Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification.

If cloud seeding changes the weather.

It modifies it.

Just the same as spewing water from the back of jets on a clear day can cause changes in the atmosphere and hence, modify the weather, by producing water vapour clouds.

Just look at the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying in criss-cross patterns.

Soon, the long white streaks fan out into thin, but wide, white clouds.

Take note as to what type of weather follows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the atmosphere, condensation produces clouds, fog and precipitation (usually only when facilitated by cloud condensation nuclei). The dew point of an air parcel is the temperature to which it must cool before water vapor in the air begins to condense.

Water vapor or water vapour (see spelling differences), also aqueous vapor, is the gas phase of water. Water vapor is one state of water within the hydrosphere. Water vapor can be produced from the evaporation of boiling liquid water or from the sublimation of ice. Under typical atmospheric conditions, water vapor is continuously generated by evaporation and removed by condensation. Water vapour is lighter than air and triggers convection currents that can lead to clouds. Water vapor is a greenhouse gas along with other gases such as carbon dioxide and methane.

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 06:36 PM
JazzRoc said:

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am doing no such thing; however you are and, therefore, I suggest that you stop accusing me of what you are doing.

You also said the following and it is such BS:

"You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now."

JazzRoc
03-30-2010, 06:40 PM
"That was one bit of information. There's plenty more. Do a search and than re-calculate."
You are making a category error and thus missing the point. It makes no difference how many examples of cloud-seeding you take (I think there are hundreds at present) they will NEVER have a significant effect on the WEATHER. read THE THREAD.

"Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification."
Misinformation. Have you EVER heard mention of their consequences in a weather forecast? Has there therefore been a conspiracy to conceal these consequences?

"If cloud seeding changes the weather. It modifies it. Duh!"
Cloud-seeding modifies CLOUDS. That's why it's called cloud-seeding. And why your TV Weather program isn't called "TV Clouds".

How little DO you understand about the Earth on which you live?

JazzRoc
03-30-2010, 07:21 PM
Just the same as spewing water from the back of jets on a clear day can cause changes in the atmosphere and hence, modify the weather, by producing water vapour clouds.
NO THEY DON'T. The largest change in insolation ever measured (measuring a sky overcast by trails) involved less than a 2% change. But you lose the blue, of course.

Just look at the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying in criss-cross patterns.
Routes cross each other, and you are a simpleton. The stratosphere travels in a different direction from your prevailing wind, has an average speed of 50+mph. Crossing shuttle routes will produce a "grid" if the stratospheric layers they pass through approach saturation with water vapor. You cannot SEE the stratosphere, wet or dry. Grids can be made over your horizon and yet arrive overhead an hour or two later.

Soon, the long white streaks fan out into thin, but wide, white clouds.
All made out of 99.9994% pure water...

Take note as to what type of weather follows.
Watch my T-shirt: the persistent spreading contrail starts by being entrained in the aircraft's wing vortices. These are angled shallowly downwards such that by the time they have stopped spinning the trail is 200 miles behind and a thousand feet beneath the aircraft. Each vortex loop forms a serration in the trail up to two thousand feet deep. Each serration is actually cone-shaped, with a centre of larger ice particles falling fastest. The faster they fall, the faster they accrete ice, so it is a form of instability.
Normally before this happens the saturated layer has ceased to be the ambient layer, and the ice starts to evaporate again. If it makes it down through the tropopause then it will evaporate as it falls through the ever-warming air. This gives you the high leaden overcast - for it is usually at a certain narrow band of altitude (and temperature) everywhere that the ice particulates have finally sublimed to nothing. At that point, by the way, the seed particulates (soot and acids) are released for, in effect, re-use.
If layers have a LATERAL motion then a contrail will SHEAR in a cirrus-like manner - because, technically it IS a cirrus cloud, its only distinction being that of possessing a slightly-different granularity - of ICE.

Water vapor is an invisible GAS. When you observe a boiling kettle, the INVISIBLE gas emitted is water vapor. Further from the spout, where the "steam" is visible, it ISN'T "steam", but droplets of water suspended in air. A cloud.

There is no such thing as a "water vapor cloud". Water vapor IS steam. Steam at 1100C is 27.6% of a modern turbofan engine exhaust by weight.

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 07:23 PM
"That was one bit of information. There's plenty more. Do a search and than re-calculate."
You are making a category error and thus missing the point. It makes no difference how many examples of cloud-seeding you take (I think there are hundreds at present) they will NEVER have a significant effect on the WEATHER. read THE THREAD.

"Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification."
Misinformation. Have you EVER heard mention of their consequences in a weather forecast? Has there therefore been a conspiracy to conceal these consequences?

"If cloud seeding changes the weather. It modifies it. Duh!"
Cloud-seeding modifies CLOUDS. That's why it's called cloud-seeding. And why your TV Weather program isn't called "TV Clouds".

How little DO you understand about the Earth on which you live?

According to what you have written on this thread, I am under the impression that you know very little about this topic and the earth on which you live.

You continue to contradict yourself.

Cloud seeding modifies the weather, just as creating water vapour clouds modifies the weather.

Clouds are a vital source for weather on Earth and without them weather would not exist.

Ah, I never said cloud-seeding was a conspiracy.

You would be wise to discontinue attributing comments to me that I have not written.

In other words, making-up things that I have not said (i.e., lieing).

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 07:31 PM
How would my above statement render me a moron?
I have already closed this subject. Combustion water leaving the exhausts of a modern civil transport aircraft can precipitate TEN THOUSAND times its weight of ice out of a supersaturated stratospheric layer. Thus the 180-ton fuel load of a transcontinental jumbo may be transformed into 1,800,000 tons of stratospheric ice.
I don't believe this has sunk in yet. Such a LONG, LONG time to appreciate this amount of ice suggests idiocy.

Spewing water from planes into the atmosphere causes weather changes and, if it is being done for this purpose, it would be referred to as weather modification.
It ISN'T done for this purpose, and at 3.5% ITS EFFECT ON GLOBAL WEATHER is statistically insignificant. It's in the thread.

If it is not for weather modification, kindly inform the forum what the other reason would be for spewing 99.9% water from the back of planes and what comprises the other one percent?
The other NOUGHT POINT NOUGHT ONE PERCENT? (You got it wrong! But actually I had rounded UP the amount.) The correct figure (when the biggest trails are deposited) will be 99.9994% PURE WATER. (That's probably better than your local tap water!)
The residual proportion (0.0006%) will be oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, only partially-burnt hydrocarbons, and soot. It's in the thread.

Obviously, weather is modified in other ways. We are aware of these natural causes.
I doubt it. There is NO SUCH THING AS WEATHER MODIFICATION. CLOUD SEEDING ISN'T WEATHER MODIFICATION.

however, spewing water from the back of planes, unless for some other reason than weather modification is not a natural cause.
Are you natural? I am. I have been an aircraft and gas turbine designer, quite naturally. Is kerosine natural? Yes. Are contrails natural (being made by naturally-existing machines made by naturally-existing people)? Of course they ******* are. They are certainly NOT supernatural. Man is natural. Man is a natural organizer of Nature. Science is the measure of Nature - which includes Man.
To hark back to "the good old days" is a severe mistake which brings one of the worst vices - irresponsibility - in its wake. Man needs to travel right now in order to improvise his way out of the situation he finds himself in. Situation management is a human skill. The more social movement and interaction (both required) the better, don't you think?

And, even if it were for some other reason, the effect would still involve modification of the weather.
It will take another forty years for aviation, expanding as it was a few years back, to significantly affect the weather. (I have already given you the science on this). At present the weather is NOT SIGNIFICANTLY MODIFIED. Mathematically, scientifically, SENSIBLY. Due to the future constriction in fossil fuel supplies* there is good reason to suppose that ALL aviation will level off (by 2030) to an amount which has NO significant effect on the Earth's atmosphere. Especially compared with power stations, industry, farting animals. rotting tundra, and active volcanoes (which total 11,500). *Which is a pity, for kerosine is almost a perfect fuel - though something non-poisonous and almost non-flammable would be better. :)

Incorrect word usage on my part. Obviously, the military and goverment can spray whatever chemicals they want from jets, but, in this instance, IMO, they DO NOT in lieu of CANNOT.
Fair doos.

I'm right, but it is not due to default.
Of course it is, if you have read and understood what I have already written in this thread. WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T.

I have not added a new batch of consequences with any ignorant misinformation as I have not written any IGNORANT misinformation. However, kindly inform me as to what a "new bath of consequences" would be.
Of course you have. You are saying aviation is harmful when it isn't. The social consequences of millions of "chicken littles" (by "Chemtrails" - non-existent "are nothing more than weather modification" - non-existent - you declare yourself to be one) are potentially HUGE. No good consequences here.

Your comment above is wrong and there isn't any need to refer to people on this forum as morons.
You have had long enough time to read and understand the science behind this. If you keep on making antiscientific and antisocial statements about aviation, what else are you? If you don't understand what I'm talking about, ask me. Don't keep on making the same false assertion.

We could say the same about you, but we don't.
Well, you couldn't, could you?
You haven't elaborately prepared a scientific argument for me to misunderstand and prattle rubbish about.
It's the other way round, n'est-ce pas?
Non-scientists so misunderstand science as to believe it is arguable. It isn't.
You either understand it, or you are TOTALLY WRONG.
People that persist in making false assertions after having been confronted with the truth (for AGES) ARE morons. We can all be one, and we can all STOP being one.

QUOTE!

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 07:32 PM
"Unfortunately very little is known about the results of these experiments other than the fact that 9 storms were seeded."
That's about one "storm" per year? What size "storm" might that be? Weather? You joke with me.
Cloud-seeding is and has been regularly undertaken in the midwest US for sixty years now. It is used to prevent large storms from building (by causing them to precipitate sooner than they otherwise would). This limits the hailstone size to that not large enough to damage crops. It's BIG BUSINESS and also a jolly good thing to do.
But is it weather modification?
Of course it ******* isn't.
"Weather" is what you get on your TV. You know, THE BIG STUFF - cyclones, anticyclones, fronts, winds, jetstreams, temperatures, precipitations (and you'll note that cloudseeding changes the NATURE of precipitation, not the AMOUNT)..

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation. You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now.

QUOTE!

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 07:33 PM
"That was one bit of information. There's plenty more. Do a search and than re-calculate."
You are making a category error and thus missing the point. It makes no difference how many examples of cloud-seeding you take (I think there are hundreds at present) they will NEVER have a significant effect on the WEATHER. read THE THREAD.

"Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification."
Misinformation. Have you EVER heard mention of their consequences in a weather forecast? Has there therefore been a conspiracy to conceal these consequences?

"If cloud seeding changes the weather. It modifies it. Duh!"
Cloud-seeding modifies CLOUDS. That's why it's called cloud-seeding. And why your TV Weather program isn't called "TV Clouds".

How little DO you understand about the Earth on which you live?

QUOTE!

BlueAngel
03-30-2010, 07:34 PM
Just the same as spewing water from the back of jets on a clear day can cause changes in the atmosphere and hence, modify the weather, by producing water vapour clouds.
NO THEY DON'T. The largest change in insolation ever measured (measuring a sky overcast by trails) involved less than a 2% change. But you lose the blue, of course.

Just look at the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying in criss-cross patterns.
Routes cross each other, and you are a simpleton. The stratosphere travels in a different direction from your prevailing wind, has an average speed of 50+mph. Crossing shuttle routes will produce a "grid" if the stratospheric layers they pass through approach saturation with water vapor. You cannot SEE the stratosphere, wet or dry. Grids can be made over your horizon and yet arrive overhead an hour or two later.

Soon, the long white streaks fan out into thin, but wide, white clouds.
All made out of 99.9994% pure water...

Take note as to what type of weather follows.
Watch my T-shirt: the persistent spreading contrail starts by being entrained in the aircraft's wing vortices. These are angled shallowly downwards such that by the time they have stopped spinning the trail is 200 miles behind and a thousand feet beneath the aircraft. Each vortex loop forms a serration in the trail up to two thousand feet deep. Each serration is actually cone-shaped, with a centre of larger ice particles falling fastest. The faster they fall, the faster they accrete ice, so it is a form of instability.
Normally before this happens the saturated layer has ceased to be the ambient layer, and the ice starts to evaporate again. If it makes it down through the tropopause then it will evaporate as it falls through the ever-warming air. This gives you the high leaden overcast.
If layers have a LATERAL motion then a contrail will SHEAR in a cirrus-like manner - because, technically it IS a cirrus cloud, its only distinction being that of possessing a slightly-different granularity - of ICE.

QUOTE!

JazzRoc
03-30-2010, 08:32 PM
"According to what you have written on this thread, I am under the impression that you know very little about this topic and the earth on which you live."
How?

"You continue to contradict yourself."
Where?

Cloud-seeding modifies the weather"
As reported on TV? NO. Nor as measured by atmospheric scientists either.

"just as creating water vapour clouds modifies the weather."
There are NO SUCH THINGS as "water vapor clouds". There is "water vapor" and there are "clouds".

"Clouds are a vital source for weather on Earth"
NO. The Sun is. The SEA is. The ATMOSPHERE is. All three are necessary. Clouds will form as a consequence.

"without them weather would not exist"
See above.

"Ah, I never said cloud-seeding was a conspiracy."
Nor did I say you did.

"You would be wise to discontinue attributing comments to me that I have not written."
I'll do so if I ever do so.

In other words, making-up things that I have not said (i.e., lieing).
You mean "lying". Where did I do that?

I'm not being rhetorical here. Answer my questions and quit the astroturfing.

BlueAngel
03-31-2010, 12:54 AM
"According to what you have written on this thread, I am under the impression that you know very little about this topic and the earth on which you live."
How?

"You continue to contradict yourself."
Where?

Cloud-seeding modifies the weather"
As reported on TV? NO. Nor as measured by atmospheric scientists either.

"just as creating water vapour clouds modifies the weather."
There are NO SUCH THINGS as "water vapor clouds". There is "water vapor" and there are "clouds".

"Clouds are a vital source for weather on Earth"
NO. The Sun is. The SEA is. The ATMOSPHERE is. All three are necessary. Clouds will form as a consequence.

"without them weather would not exist"
See above.

"Ah, I never said cloud-seeding was a conspiracy."
Nor did I say you did.

"You would be wise to discontinue attributing comments to me that I have not written."
I'll do so if I ever do so.

In other words, making-up things that I have not said (i.e., lieing).
You mean "lying". Where did I do that?

I'm not being rhetorical here. Answer my questions and quit the astroturfing.

I've already pointed out your lies.

No need for me to be redundant.

Your contradictions are obvious and I have pointed them out, as well.

Again, no need for me to be redundant.

You won't get anywhere by demanding anything of me, but, just so you know, I have already answered your questions.

Again, no need for me to be redundant.

Obviously, your reading comprehension is lacking.

JazzRoc
03-31-2010, 04:18 AM
I've already pointed out your lies. Your contradictions are obvious and I have pointed them out, as well.
To astroturf the whole of my post is NOT to "point out" ANYTHING.

I have already answered your questions.
Quit the lying and answer my questions.

Obviously, your reading comprehension is lacking.
Quit the smearing too.

Answer my questions:

How are you under the impression that I know very little about this topic and the earth?

Where do I contradict myself?

Where do I lie?

BlueAngel
03-31-2010, 09:25 PM
I've already pointed out your lies. Your contradictions are obvious and I have pointed them out, as well.
To astroturf the whole of my post is NOT to "point out" ANYTHING.

To astroturf the whole of your post is to point out your lies.

I have already answered your questions.
Quit the lying and answer my questions.

It is you who is the liar, as I have pointed out. I don't respond to demands; however, I've already answered your questions. Obviously, you can't read.

Obviously, your reading comprehension is lacking.
Quit the smearing too.

Your reading comprehension is lacking. That's a fact. Therefore, it is not smearing. Besides, to say that some one's reading comprehension is lacking does not qualify as a smear. It's an observation. But, calling people morons, as you have done, would be a smear.

Answer my questions:

How are you under the impression that I know very little about this topic and the earth?

You have proven this with your ramblings.

Where do I contradict myself?

For the third time, I have already pointed this out. This is why I say that your reading comprehension is lacking.

Where do I lie?

Again, for the third time, I have already pointed this out. This is why I say that your reading comprehension is lacking.

Comments inside the box.

BlueAngel
04-01-2010, 12:15 AM
Kindly explain to the forum, JazzRoc, in your opinioin, why non-passenger planes spew whatever it is they spew from the back of their planes on a clear day that begin as long white streaks, but ultimately end up fanning out into thin white, whispy clouds.

What are they spewing?

Why are they doing this?

What is the purpose?

Thanking you in advance,
BA

BlueAngel
04-01-2010, 01:51 AM
Take a chill pill, JazzRoc and call me in the morning.

JazzRoc
04-01-2010, 04:48 AM
Kindly explain to the forum, JazzRoc, in your opinioin, why non-passenger planes spew whatever it is they spew from the back of their planes on a clear day that begin as long white streaks, but ultimately end up fanning out into thin white, whispy clouds. What are they spewing? Why are they doing this? What is the purpose? Thanking you in advance, BA
You are lying, astroturfing, and skirting my questions once again.

You are a moderator here? You behavior needs moderating by someone truly responsible.

The answer to your questions is that they are just the natural results you get when you burn kerosine in the stratosphere.

This, FOR THE THIRD TIME IN THIS THREAD, is evidenced below in the following atmospheric science research papers.

“Contrails to Cirrus—Morphology, Microphysics, and Radiative Properties”:
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf

Its crucial findings are recalled here:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/JazzRoc/clubcons/icewater.jpg

Because you are hard of thinking, I'll translate it into simple terms.

For every yard of forward flight at cruise altitude a jumbo jet may produce thirty-five pounds of trail ice. It only depends on the water vapor content of the surrounding air. This ice evaporates back into the air when it has fallen to a height of 4-5 miles. Another forty years of continual expansion of air travel may take place before there is a significant effect on the weather.

That's it. Only a moron would fail to understand this.

“Contrail Formation and Persistence”
contrail.html (http://students.ou.edu/J/Thomas.A.Jones-1/contrail.html)
“Long lasting contrails like the ones observed usually occur in parts of the sky that have preexisting patches of cirrus clouds. Since the cirrus clouds are formed of ice crystals like the contrails, cirrus clouds in a region of the sky suggests supersaturation with respect to ice and sufficient heterogeneous nuclei for ice crystals to form. GOES-8 satellite photographs taken at approximately at the same time as the contrails were present show significant cirrus clouds around the Norman area providing the condition necessary for contrail persistence.”

S J Moss (1999). The Testing and Verification of Contrail Forecasts using Pilot Observations from Aircraft. Meteorological Applications, 6 , pp 193-200
The testing and verification of contrail forecasts using pilot observations from (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1999MeApp...6..193M)
“Recent research has shown that old forecasting techniques may not be wholly applicable to modern aircraft that now use more efficient engines. In order to compare the performance of both the old and new forecasting techniques a validation trial was carried out over a nine-month period in which RAF pilots reported when and where contrails did and did not occur.”

Wakes of War: Contrails and the Rise of Air Power, 1918-1945 Part II—The Air War over Europe, 1939-1945
Wakes of war: contrails and the rise of air power, 1918-1945 Part II—the air war over Europe, 1939-1945 | Air Power History | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3101/is_/ai_n29372921)
“It is easy to see that, if the air is so cold that it cannot hold much water as vapor, the water in the exhaust may be sufficient, when added to the moisture already in the atmosphere, to raise the humidity in the turbulent wake to or beyond the saturation value. If this condition exists, some of the water vapor will condense and a visible trail will form.”

A Laboratory Study of Contrails
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0469/15/2/pdf/i1520-0469-15-2-149.pdf
“The existence of supercooled water at temperatures significantly colder than -40C is not a generally-accepted fact, but has been suspected by theorists for some time. Fig. 5 demonstrates that such supercooling of contrail condensate, whatever its purity, is possible.”

Contrail Observations over Southern and Eastern Asia in NOAA/AVHRR Data and Comparisons to Contrail Simulations in a GCM

Contrail Observations over Southern and Eastern Asia in NOAA/AVHRR Data and Comparisons to Contrail Simulations in a GCM - International Journal of Remote Sensing (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a778783829~db=all)
“400 NOAA-14 satellite scenes from four months of the year 1998 were analysed. Both regions show sufficient air traffic to produce an observable amount of contrails. Thus we are able to measure for the first time contrail frequencies in the tropics and compare it to a nearby mid latitudinal region. The annual average of the daily mean contrail cloud coverage is 0.13% for the Thailand region and about 0.25% for the Japan region. For both regions the contrail cover is largest during spring. The daily cycle shows surprisingly high contrail coverage during night in spite of lower air traffic densities during night time.”

Proceedings of the Aircraft Research Association
http://www.greenerbydesign.org.uk/resources/2003_conference/The_Technology_Challenge.pdf
“Persistent contrails, which in time degenerate into cirrus cloud, only form in air which is saturated with respect to ice and the conditions for their formation and persistence are reasonably well understood. There’s no prospect of a technological fix for that. If you fly through an ice-saturated region in the atmosphere, you’ll produce a persistent contrail.”

EFFECTS OF AIRCRAFT WAKE DYNAMICS ON CONTRAIL DEVELOPMENT
Atmospheric Turbulence Research at WVU (http://eiger.mae.wvu.edu/AEAP99.html)
CONCLUSIONS
1. Generally contrail ice in near equilibrium with ice mass proportional to contrail volume (except for the rapidly falling vortices early, and precipitation regions later).
2. Contrail volume largely determined by vortex dynamics (until ~ 4 min.) and Brunt-Vaisala oscillations (until ~ 20 min.).
3. Passive tracer, ice mass and ice number density distributions differ (strong dependence on RH ice ).
4. Heating due to adiabatic compression of falling vortex system can lead to significant ice crystal number depletion. (depending on RH ice , EI ice# , aircraft type).
5. Strong species fluctuations can have a significant impact on measured chemistry [e.g. HO2 /OH] in the aircraft wake.

JazzRoc versus “Chemtrails” (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com)

Contrail Science - Chemtrail Pseudoscience (http://contrailscience.com)

BOTH these sites refer to the "Contrails to Cirrus" paper in their side menus, and BOTH have been offered you as links on this thread... they say "There's NONE so blind as those that don't wish to see"...

You stand out as useless. Why conduct an argument about a subject you neither read nor understand? Only a moron would do this.

Demoronize yourself, and do us all a favor.

BlueAngel
04-07-2010, 12:26 AM
JazzRoc said:

You are lying, astroturfing, and skirting my questions once again.

You are a moderator here? You behavior needs moderating by someone truly responsible.

The answer to your questions is that they are just the natural results you get when you burn kerosine in the stratosphere.

This, FOR THE THIRD TIME IN THIS THREAD, is evidenced below in the following atmospheric science research papers.

----------------------------------------------------------------

As evidenced by my comments and replies to you, I'm not lying, astroturfing or skirting your questions.

So, why are they burning kerosene in the stratosphere?

Yes. I am a moderator here. A super RESPONSIBLE moderator at that and, thus, the reason why I was APPOINTED as such.

According to you, my behavior is irresponsible because I question your logic.

Oh, yeah, that's logical.

BlueAngel
04-07-2010, 01:52 AM
I don't get Stompk.

On one hand, he's trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but on the other hand he's doing the complete opposite.

Such as stating that contrails forming into clouds is a myth.

HUH?

Try looking up into the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying and you'll see for yourself that it ain't a myth that contrails form into clouds.

The eye does not deceive.

However, words do and the bunch of mumbo jumbo mathematical information that many of the members here supply us with so as to attempt to confuse our critical thinking and deductive reasoning capabilities.

It's called information overload and/or brain fry.

Trust your instincts and not the BS they post.

They want you to believe that they are intellectuals in the topic at hand so they copy and paste, but cannot explain anything in their own words.

BlueAngel
04-07-2010, 01:57 AM
KennyWally said:

Do you think, that this would actually be broadcast on the mass media teevee?

you're kidding, right?

For me, I didn't need no stinking math to tell me what I could see.

But, nice job, FWIW.

They'll only recognize fellow whores, who spin an agenda, truth tellers are not welcome.

---------------------------------------------------------

Good post, Wally.

I don't need no stinkin' math to tell me what I see either.

JazzRoc
04-07-2010, 11:40 AM
So, why are they burning kerosene in the stratosphere?
To provide the forward THRUST for flight at constant altitude.

Yes. I am a moderator here. A super RESPONSIBLE moderator at that and, thus, the reason why I was APPOINTED as such.
As a moderator you should be setting a standard for the rules of debate. Unfortunately you break many of these rules. Why don't you learn what they are? It will make you a better person in spite of yourself.

According to you, my behavior is irresponsible because I question your logic. Oh, yeah, that's logical.
Science is the best of everyone's logic. You'll have to learn some of it to appreciate it. Its application to our everyday world has brought us out of the Dark Ages.

I don't get Stompk. On one hand, he's trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but on the other hand he's doing the complete opposite. Such as stating that contrails forming into clouds is a myth. Try looking up into the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying and you'll see for yourself that it ain't a myth that contrails form into clouds. The eye does not deceive.
The eye SEES, then the brain INTERPRETS. Correctly if it is "well-informed" (educated), incorrectly otherwise.

However, words do and the bunch of mumbo jumbo mathematical information that many of the members here supply us with so as to attempt to confuse our critical thinking and deductive reasoning capabilities.
Science ain't science without the mathematics. Only when you have quantified may you qualify. It makes you put your money where your mouth is. It's worth any effort to improve ones understanding of the way the world is. Information is only part of it. Comprehension is the other part, and that is where you're lacking. Come to think of it, you haven't got the correct information either: chemtrail websites are notoriously and consistently WRONG throughout their content. And, of course, there's your innumeracy...

It's called information overload and/or brain fry. Trust your instincts and not the BS they post. They want you to believe that they are intellectuals in the topic at hand so they copy and paste, but cannot explain anything in their own words.
The journey of three thousand miles begins with but a single step.
I always use my own words - as well as the words of people cleverer, wiser, or better-informed than I am.
Why digress into "intellectualism"? Why not stick to the topic? Perhaps you know too little to debate any further.

KennyWally said: Do you think, that this would actually be broadcast on the mass media teevee? you're kidding, right? For me, I didn't need no stinking math to tell me what I could see. But, nice job, FWIW. They'll only recognize fellow whores, who spin an agenda, truth tellers are not welcome.
You must be out of your mind. This place has a readership of three. Truth tellers are not present.

Good post, Wally. I don't need no stinkin' math to tell me what I see either.
Beauty is, as ever, in the eye of the beholder. Sorry, nose of the beholder. Down, boy (those darned instincts, eh?)!
Send me all your money and I will double it for you.
:cool:

BlueAngel
04-10-2010, 10:04 PM
So, why are they burning kerosene in the stratosphere?
To provide the forward THRUST for flight at constant altitude.

Oh, gee, thanks for clearing that up.

Yes. I am a moderator here. A super RESPONSIBLE moderator at that and, thus, the reason why I was APPOINTED as such.
As a moderator you should be setting a standard for the rules of debate. Unfortunately you break many of these rules. Why don't you learn what they are? It will make you a better person in spite of yourself.

Excuse me, but I am the SUPER MODERATOR of this forum because I do set a standard for the rules of debate and, I don't break any of those rules regardless of what you think.

According to you, my behavior is irresponsible because I question your logic. Oh, yeah, that's logical.
Science is the best of everyone's logic. You'll have to learn some of it to appreciate it. Its application to our everyday world has brought us out of the Dark Ages.

We're not talking about science. We're talking about how you said that my behavior was irresponsible because I question your logic. Try sticking with the topic instead of changing the subject. We're not out of the dark ages.

I don't get Stompk. On one hand, he's trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but on the other hand he's doing the complete opposite. Such as stating that contrails forming into clouds is a myth. Try looking up into the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying and you'll see for yourself that it ain't a myth that contrails form into clouds. The eye does not deceive.
The eye SEES, then the brain INTERPRETS. Correctly if it is "well-informed" (educated), incorrectly otherwise.

The eye sees the contrails/chemtrails, whatever you care to call them and the brain interprets them correctly.

However, words do and the bunch of mumbo jumbo mathematical information that many of the members here supply us with so as to attempt to confuse our critical thinking and deductive reasoning capabilities.
Science ain't science without the mathematics. Only when you have quantified may you qualify. It makes you put your money where your mouth is. It's worth any effort to improve ones understanding of the way the world is. Information is only part of it. Comprehension is the other part, and that is where you're lacking. Come to think of it, you haven't got the correct information either: chemtrail websites are notoriously and consistently WRONG throughout their content. And, of course, there's your innumeracy...

I'm not lacking anywhere, but you are. Come to think of it, you haven't got the corect information for anything.

It's called information overload and/or brain fry. Trust your instincts and not the BS they post. They want you to believe that they are intellectuals in the topic at hand so they copy and paste, but cannot explain anything in their own words.
The journey of three thousand miles begins with but a single step.
I always use my own words - as well as the words of people cleverer, wiser, or better-informed than I am.
Why digress into "intellectualism"? Why not stick to the topic? Perhaps you know too little to debate any further.

I digress into intellcutialism because that is where my brain resides and I always stick to the topic, but you don't. Obviously, you know too little to debate any further.

KennyWally said: Do you think, that this would actually be broadcast on the mass media teevee? you're kidding, right? For me, I didn't need no stinking math to tell me what I could see. But, nice job, FWIW. They'll only recognize fellow whores, who spin an agenda, truth tellers are not welcome.
You must be out of your mind. This place has a readership of three. Truth tellers are not present.

Truth tellers are present on this forum, but, you ain't one of them so I suggest you go away. This forum has a very large readership.

Good post, Wally. I don't need no stinkin' math to tell me what I see either.
Beauty is, as ever, in the eye of the beholder. Sorry, nose of the beholder. Down, boy (those darned instincts, eh?)!
Send me all your money and I will double it for you.

There will be no money forthcoming. We know when someone is spewing BS and that would be you.
:cool:

Inside the box.

Yeah!!

JazzRoc
04-11-2010, 06:22 AM
Oh, gee, thanks for clearing that up.
You asked, I answered.

Excuse me, but I am the SUPER MODERATOR of this forum because I do set a standard for the rules of debate and, I don't break any of those rules regardless of what you think.
What are the rules of debate?

We're not talking about science.
Oh, yes, we are. Well I am. You're talking pseudoscience.

We're talking about how you said that my behavior was irresponsible because I question your logic.
Suggesting cloud-seeding is weather modification IS irresponsible of you. Especially when you won't concede that almost the whole of human activities ARE modifying the weather.

Try sticking with the topic instead of changing the subject. We're not out of the dark ages.
Two lies.

The eye sees the contrails/chemtrails, whatever you care to call them and the brain interprets them correctly.
No it doesn't. You believe that the trail materials are emitted by the engines, when 99.99% of the materials are precipitated out of and reabsorbed back into the air. THAT is a failure to interpret what you see.

However, words do and the bunch of mumbo jumbo mathematical information that many of the members here supply us with so as to attempt to confuse our critical thinking and deductive reasoning capabilities. I'm not lacking anywhere, but you are. Come to think of it, you haven't got the corect information for anything.
Strange you should say that, for I (with many others, of course) designed and tested blades for jet engines, running the motors within a supersonic wind tunnel built within a fir forest in Hampshire in the early sixties. Loads of meaningless mumbo-jumbo later, aircraft like the Harrier and the Concorde turned up out of the blue. It must have been the magic spell we cast.

It's called information overload and/or brain fry.
Your description of effort?

Trust your instincts and not the BS they post.
Yes, hard-working successful people are full of bullshit. I get your drift.

They want you to believe that they are intellectuals in the topic at hand so they copy and paste, but cannot explain anything in their own words.
That looks sick every time I explain something, doesn't it?

All you have to do to check what I say is look it up in any library.

I digress into intellcutialism because that is where my brain resides and I always stick to the topic, but you don't. Obviously, you know too little to debate any further.
You can't even spell the word. I have forgotten more than you will ever know.

Truth tellers are present on this forum, but, you ain't one of them so I suggest you go away. This forum has a very large readership.
I am here for reasons nothing to do with you. No more lies, please.

There will be no money forthcoming. We know when someone is spewing BS and that would be you.
Your multiple personalities missed the joke?

BlueAngel
04-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Oh, gee, thanks for clearing that up.
You asked, I answered.

Excuse me, but I am the SUPER MODERATOR of this forum because I do set a standard for the rules of debate and, I don't break any of those rules regardless of what you think.
What are the rules of debate?

We're not talking about science.
Oh, yes, we are. Well I am. You're talking pseudoscience.

We're talking about how you said that my behavior was irresponsible because I question your logic.
Suggesting cloud-seeding is weather modification IS irresponsible of you. Especially when you won't concede that almost the whole of human activities ARE modifying the weather.

Try sticking with the topic instead of changing the subject. We're not out of the dark ages.
Two lies.

The eye sees the contrails/chemtrails, whatever you care to call them and the brain interprets them correctly.
No it doesn't. You believe that the trail materials are emitted by the engines, when 99.99% of the materials are precipitated out of and reabsorbed back into the air. THAT is a failure to interpret what you see.

However, words do and the bunch of mumbo jumbo mathematical information that many of the members here supply us with so as to attempt to confuse our critical thinking and deductive reasoning capabilities. I'm not lacking anywhere, but you are. Come to think of it, you haven't got the corect information for anything.
Strange you should say that, for I (with many others, of course) designed and tested blades for jet engines, running the motors within a supersonic wind tunnel built within a fir forest in Hampshire in the early sixties. Loads of meaningless mumbo-jumbo later, aircraft like the Harrier and the Concorde turned up out of the blue. It must have been the magic spell we cast.

It's called information overload and/or brain fry.
Your description of effort?

Trust your instincts and not the BS they post.
Yes, hard-working successful people are full of bullshit. I get your drift.

They want you to believe that they are intellectuals in the topic at hand so they copy and paste, but cannot explain anything in their own words.
That looks sick every time I explain something, doesn't it?

All you have to do to check what I say is look it up in any library.

I digress into intellcutialism because that is where my brain resides and I always stick to the topic, but you don't. Obviously, you know too little to debate any further.
You can't even spell the word. I have forgotten more than you will ever know.

Truth tellers are present on this forum, but, you ain't one of them so I suggest you go away. This forum has a very large readership.
I am here for reasons nothing to do with you. No more lies, please.

There will be no money forthcoming. We know when someone is spewing BS and that would be you.
Your multiple personalities missed the joke?

JazzRoc:

Your circular arguments are quite boring.

I find it necessary to ban your for advertising.

Later, Jazz.

stompk
05-14-2010, 07:26 PM
So, why are they burning kerosene in the stratosphere?
To provide the forward THRUST for flight at constant altitude.



I don't get Stompk. On one hand, he's trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but on the other hand he's doing the complete opposite. Such as stating that contrails forming into clouds is a myth. Try looking up into the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying and you'll see for yourself that it ain't a myth that contrails form into clouds. The eye does not deceive.
The eye SEES, then the brain INTERPRETS. Correctly if it is "well-informed" (educated), incorrectly otherwise.



Natural contrails are rare, and never form into clouds. Chemically modified contrails, called Chemtrails, do form gray, disgusting clouds.

BlueAngel
05-14-2010, 09:00 PM
Natural contrails are rare, and never form into clouds. Chemically modified contrails, called Chemtrails, do form gray, disgusting clouds.

Stompk knows that natural contrails are rare and never form into clouds and because he says so, we must assume it is fact.

He also knows that chemically modified chemtrails form grey disgusting clouds.

Sorry, but the chem trails/contrails I see are white and not grey.

Chemically modified, natural or otherwise.

Hopefully, ATS will take you back.

stompk
05-15-2010, 08:59 AM
Stompk knows that natural contrails are rare and never form into clouds and because he says so, we must assume it is fact.

He also knows that chemically modified chemtrails form grey disgusting clouds.

Sorry, but the chem trails/contrails I see are white and not grey.

Chemically modified, natural or otherwise.

Hopefully, ATS will take you back.

At least your smart enough to ban JazzRoc. What an idiot.

Don't you worry, already back on ATS.

BlueAngel
05-17-2010, 11:02 PM
At least your smart enough to ban JazzRoc. What an idiot.

Don't you worry, already back on ATS.

My intelligence is not measured by who I ban and your compliment is underhanded at best with the use of the words:

AT LEAST your smart enough.

Yeah.

That's about as smart as I am.

Duh.

I know who to ban.

I am, however, smart enough to know that it should read:

At least YOU'RE smart enough and not "YOUR."

Thanks for the underhanded compliment, anyway.

No worries.

Good to know you're back on over at ATS.

stompk
10-01-2012, 08:14 AM
bump