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nakedsnake
05-10-2005, 09:41 AM
I see the Masonic symbols on your posts, what is your rank or affiliation in the movement???

Draken
05-10-2005, 11:55 AM
Hey snake!

Why do you ask?

Have you already made up your mind?

Have you read my posts?

What "Masonic" symbols are you referring to?

nakedsnake
05-10-2005, 04:00 PM
Im asking because, im curious as to the symbols the flag with the eagle, the crown under your name, I glanced over some of your posts as they were attached to topics I was reading.
I don't understand the comment as to have I made up my mind? about what? What am I suppossed to make up my mind about?
the question was straight forward are you a Mason?

Draken
05-10-2005, 05:19 PM
No, I'm not a Mason.

I've never been offered to become a Mason.

At one stage I was fascinated with Freemasonry and started researching it - now it's something like 10 years ago - and the more I found out the more I was glad I wasn't fascinated enough to join.

The crown is the <a href="http://home.hu.inter.net/~jekely/crown.htm">Holy Crown of Hungary</a>.

The "eagle" is actually a <a href="http://www.hunmagyar.org/hungary/myth/turul.html">turul bird</a>, a mythical bird of prey, which is an important symbol of the Magyars.

These symbols have nothing to do with Masonry. They are much older.

Lately, people have insinuated that I could/might have Masonic/Illuminati sympathies, by people who should know me better than that, and your questions sounded like you insinuated things in the same direction, therefore my suspicion. I apologize if my initial assumption was wrong. I guess I'm just tired of being the subject of suspicion.
I know my reasons for writing what I write are genuine.

I read and try to understand a lot of esoteric, religious texts and study mythology a lot. You could say I'm a Traditionalist, as opposed to a Modernist.

I can't say I agree a 100% with the Christian doctrine, but I agree with most of it. I also highly respect other traditions based on a genuine knowledge of God, so I don't exclude Vedic, Muslim, ancient Chinese, Native American or Norse traditions and beliefs.

There's me in a nutshell - what about you?

nakedsnake
05-10-2005, 06:02 PM
Draken wrote:

I can't say I agree a 100% with the Christian doctrine, but I agree with most of it. I also highly respect other traditions based on a genuine knowledge of God

There's me in a nutshell - what about you?

I was asking because of the symbols, and mainly because I was curious as to your esoteric posts.
I was an atheist, and am now a Christian.
The thing about Christianity is that it is a historical movement based on a historical person, powered by a supernatural historical event; namely the resurrection.
so to be intellectually honest with the Christian movement you can't be selective, you either accept it or reject it.
Being highly respectful of other traditions, while admirable might not lead you to truth.
You state other traditions based on an genuine knowledge of God, how do we determine what is genuine and what is false?
sincerety of belief does not make it genuine knowledge of the divine.
we cannot know the transcendent unless he takes the first step and reveals himself to us, this is the claim of Christianity that he revealed himself to us in his son and in no other way, this absolute exclusive claim to the divine is offensive to many people, they say it is intolerrant.
But it is confirmed by his resurrection from the dead, a historical event.
Truth is by nature exclusive.
I would advise any lover of truth and any sincere seeker of the divine, to look at the life, claims, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Because if he rose from the dead, he speaks the words of God for God, and if he claimed exclusivity to that, then all else by definition is false.
And truth about God is the ultimate truth.
I hope a seeker such as yourself friend takes the invitation.

With all due respects.. Snake

nakedsnake
05-10-2005, 06:14 PM
Draken..
For more about me see this post...

http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1287&forum=16&PHPSESSID=30ed91a61749fea0b78b98c83d10c006

Ahmad
05-11-2005, 05:04 AM
we cannot know the transcendent unless he takes the first step and reveals himself to us, this is the claim of Christianity that he revealed himself to us in his son and in no other way, this absolute exclusive claim to the divine is offensive to many people, they say it is intolerrant.

Peace be upon you,

As Martin Luher King said, it was nothing but extreme love (idol-worship) of Jesus that lead some of his followers to invent the "Sonship" and the "resurrection".

Martin L.King (http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/papers/vol1/491123-What_Experiences_of_Christians.htm):
"The last doctrine in our discussion deals with the resurrection story. This doctrine, upon which the Easter Faith rests, symbolizes the ultimate Christian conviction: that Christ conquered death. From a literary, historical, and philosophical point of view this doctrine raises many questions. In fact the external evidence for the authenticity of this doctrine is found wanting. But here again the external evidence is not the most important thing, for it in itself fails to tell us precisely the thing we most want to know: What experiences of early Christians lead to the formulation of the doctrine?

The root of our inquiry is found in the fact that the early Christians had lived with Jesus. They had been captivated by the magnetic power of his personality. This basic experience led to the faith that he could never die. And so in the pre-scientific thought pattern of the first century, this inner faith took outward form. But it must be remembered that before the doctrine was formulated or the event recorded, the early Christians had had a lasting experience with the Christ. They had come to see that the essential note in the Fourth Gospel is the ultimate force in Christianity: The living, deathless person of Christ. They expressed this in terms of the outward, but it was an inner experience that lead to its expression."
--------------------------------------------

As for the sonship also it's not a historical event, it was just an idea borrowed from the Greek and Roman myths that changed the monothiestic religion from one god alone to God+a son.

A prominent Theologian, John Hick (http://www.johnhick.org.uk/article2.shtml) exposed that fact:

"
"It’s also well known today - another theme of that book - that the term ‘son of God’ was widely used in the ancient world. Jesus was by no means the only person to whom the term was applied

In particular, within Jesus’ own religion, Judaism, Adam was called the son of God, and is so called in Luke’s Gospel where Jesus’ ancestry is traced back to ‘the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God’ (tou Seth tou Adam tou Theou’, 3:38), angels were called sons of God, Israel as a whole was called God’s son, and indeed any outstandingly pious Jew could be called a son of God. And the ancient Hebrew kings were enthroned as son of God - hence the words of Psalm 2:7, ‘Thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee’. But no one within Judaism thought that God literally begot sons.

The phrase ‘son of God’ was clearly metaphorical. ‘son of'’ meant ‘true servant of’ or sometimes ‘given a special divine mission by’ or more generally ‘in the spirit of’. The term was a very familiar metaphor within Judaism and never implied deity.

But as Christianity expanded beyond its Jewish roots into the Graeco-Roman world the metaphorical son of God was gradually transformed in Christian thinking into the metaphysical God the Son, second person of a divine Trinity.

And it is this epoch-making development that is under question today."
-------------------------------------------
I invite you to read Quran, the final proven testament from God, the book that the "Muslims" (better called Muhamedans) have abandoned en masse in favor of the man-made Hadith books which is the equivelant of the man-made Talmud.

In this PROVEN book you may find the Truth about Jesus.

1- Did Jesus rise from the dead? Quran says No, nor was he really crucified, God raised his soul to Him before the torture began, they crucified an empty body, Jesus is not coming back.

Crucifying "the Body" of Jesus*

[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

Footnote
*4:157-158 Jesus, the real person, the soul, was raised in the same manner as in the death of any righteous person. Subsequently, his enemies arrested, tortured, and crucified his living, but empty, body. See Appendices 17 & 22 of the "Authorized english translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa".


[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

[4:160] Due to their transgressions, we prohibited for the Jews good foods that used to be lawful for them; also for consistently repelling from the path of GOD.

[4:161] And for practicing usury, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution.

[4:162] As for those among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. They are observers of the Contact Prayers (Salat), and givers of the obligatory charity (Zakat); they are believers in GOD and the Last Day. We grant these a great recompense.

For more feel free to read my article on Christianity (www.usn2161.net/Christianity.html)

Draken
05-11-2005, 06:05 AM
nakedsnake wrote:
I was asking because of the symbols, and mainly because I was curious as to your esoteric posts.
I was an atheist, and am now a Christian.
The thing about Christianity is that it is a historical movement based on a historical person, powered by a supernatural historical event; namely the resurrection.
so to be intellectually honest with the Christian movement you can't be selective, you either accept it or reject it.
Being highly respectful of other traditions, while admirable might not lead you to truth.
You state other traditions based on an genuine knowledge of God, how do we determine what is genuine and what is false?
sincerety of belief does not make it genuine knowledge of the divine.
we cannot know the transcendent unless he takes the first step and reveals himself to us, this is the claim of Christianity that he revealed himself to us in his son and in no other way, this absolute exclusive claim to the divine is offensive to many people, they say it is intolerrant.
But it is confirmed by his resurrection from the dead, a historical event.
Truth is by nature exclusive.
I would advise any lover of truth and any sincere seeker of the divine, to look at the life, claims, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Because if he rose from the dead, he speaks the words of God for God, and if he claimed exclusivity to that, then all else by definition is false.
And truth about God is the ultimate truth.
I hope a seeker such as yourself friend takes the invitation.

With all due respects.. Snake

Valid points there, Ahmad.

Snake, if you ask me to reject other traditional wisdom for the exlcusive benefit of Christianity you're asking in vain.
I don't have to reject other doctrines to be able to appreciate the teaching of Jesus.

I know I don't reject the teaching of Jesus, but I've noticed it's quite difficult to explain to people over the net.
When i read the NT I see other aspects than just the obvious. I don't take every word in the NT literally. You might think that that is rejecting the message or reading things into the text that isn't there, but that's your opinion. There are more than one way to understand the NT and the teachings of Jesus.

I see the teachings of Jesus in other religious/spiritual doctrines, not just in the Christian doctrine.

You ask how we can know what's genuine and what's false.

Certainly not through logical, rational thinking. There's a Sufi saying:

"Searching for God through logical proof is like searching for the sun with a lamp."

I can't answer your question, because I can't through logical arguments and rational thinking explain how I think and what my experiences are and have been.

One thing I forgot to mention in my brief presentation of myself are people who inspired me. A few of these are important to mention, like Frithjof Schuon, Julius Evola, René Guénon et al. These people belong to an informal "school" of thought called "Traditionalists". Their philosophy is what Guénon calls the "primordial tradition". I've posted quite a lot of articles as an attempt to introduce people coming to this forum to these ideas.
If you're interested check out my <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=590&forum=3&PHPSESSID=6e4423786b933071d13c4d53ae99061a">INTEGRAL TRADITION</a>, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=677&forum=3&PHPSESSID=6e4423786b933071d13c4d53ae99061a">SOLIPSISM - KALI-YUGA - RIGHT-WING ATTITUDE</a>, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=601&forum=2&PHPSESSID=6e4423786b933071d13c4d53ae99061a">Individual, Spiritual Resistance To Ego & NWO</a>, <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1259&forum=17&PHPSESSID=6e4423786b933071d13c4d53ae99061a">The System of Antichrist and September 11 by Charles Upton</a> threads, along with my more political, factual threads <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1052&forum=2&PHPSESSID=6e4423786b933071d13c4d53ae99061a">Marxist Cultural Subversion According to Gramsci</a> and my thread on <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=545&forum=17&PHPSESSID=6e4423786b933071d13c4d53ae99061a">COMMUNISM</a>.

You say truth is by nature exclusive. I don't understand what you mean by that statement. Exclusive? Excluding who?
I would say there's relative truth and there's absolute, Universal Truth. Relative truth could be "exclusive", whatever we decide that is. Absolute, Univeral Truth, on the other hand, is actually the opposite: it's ALL INCLUSIVE. There is only One.

In conclusion, I totally accept the resurrection of Christ. That does not mean all other spiritual teachings are wrong. Neither does it mean your understanding of the resurrection of Christ is identical to mine.

I will shortly be leaving this forum for a while; I need to gather my thoughts on how to go on in my life. I feel I've said what I wanted to say, for now at least.
My plan is to wrap up discussions I'm in the middle of at the moment and to post a "goodbye for now"-post before I leave, and come back in a few months' time.

truebeliever
05-11-2005, 07:09 AM
Draks symbols are all masculine symbols of superior insight.

The Sun...consciousness.

The Eagle...superior insight from above.

The sword...the ability to cut through and descriminate.

Yes, the Masons would approve ALL of these symbols.

Is Draken a Mason...I think his posts speak for themselves.

He is just a misguided Pagan who must be killed to save him from himself...George Bush Christian style!

:-D 8-) :-P :-)

Draken
05-11-2005, 08:37 AM
Hey, true, maybe I'll die willingly, and THEN what?;-)

truebeliever
05-11-2005, 11:33 AM
Then we'll write a book 2000 years later saying you were a dope fiend, wife basher and child molester who also smelled...and you did'nt actually die but married a transvestite and lived happily in the Phillapines and used gene splicing to begin a pagan line of alien lizards.

I will offer no proof of my comments of you but the books will sell well and "infinite love" will solve everything.

:-P

Draken
05-11-2005, 12:12 PM
Nice. :-D

05-11-2005, 05:11 PM
truebeliever wrote:
Then we'll write a book 2000 years later saying you were a dope fiend, wife basher and child molester who also smelled...and you did'nt actually die but married a transvestite and lived happily in the Phillapines and used gene splicing to begin a pagan line of alien lizards.

I will offer no proof of my comments of you but the books will sell well and "infinite love" will solve everything.

:-P

!!LOL!!

Offer no proof!! Infinite love!!

Sounds like what happened to me after spending a year in captivity on the website of a famous, oh, well, famous person.

Let's leave it at that for now!!

nakedsnake
05-11-2005, 09:58 PM
Ahmad,

sorry for the late post but I was working, I see you joined the conversation welcome, and peace be upon you,
Mr. King is mistaken although a great civil rights leader King does not speak with authority when it comes to Christianity. The only men that could speak with authority when it comes to Christ would be Peter, John, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark, Jude and last but not least Paul.
Paul was a Pharisee and was in fact by his own admission opposed to Christ, he became his most loyal follower, why? because he saw him risen! The experiences that lead the disciples to claim he was risen, was just that; the disciples and enemies Paul and James had eyewitness experience's which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus.
Paul himself said; Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, there is no resurrection form the dead? But if there is no resurrection from the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is without foundation, and so is your faith. 1 Corinthians 15:12-14.

The cause of the start of Christianity was the resurrection, it was not developed later on King is wrong.
The New Testament never says, nor do Christians claim that the title Son of God was only used exclusively for Jesus, The Hebrew ben and Aramic bar, "son' designate not only a male descendant but also a relationship to a community, a country, a species, it all depends on the context. You mention Psalm 2:7 which was originally meant to be for Solomon but was in reality a veiled prophecy about the true Son of God Jesus, that's why the writer of Hebrews uses that Psalm to describe Jesus as superior to the angels and to be God Himself. see Hebrews 1 (the whole chapter).
This formula was then obviously present from the roots of Christianity, Hebrews has been dated at 64 A.D.

you quote from the Quran, but I have a few questions,
Why would Caliph Uthman produce an authorized version of the Quran if the Quran had been perfectly preserved from the beginning?
were you aware that even today, there are variants between different transmitted versions of the Quran-such as the Hafs transmission and the Warsh transmission?
Since there are copies of the Quran that have variant readings, how can it be argued that there has always been "perfect unity" in the copies of the Quran?
While it is claimed that Allah preserved the Quran in infallible copies are we to conclude that Allah was incapable of accomplishing the same feat regarding all his previous revelations, like the Psalms of David and the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you see the inconsistency with such a viewpoint?
Paul warned of people or angels (Mohammed received his revelations by angel) changing the Gospel of Christ.
But I can't quote from the Bible because the Bible is corrupted (Muslim Viewpoint), the only parts of the Bible that agree with the Quran are valid, that my friend is a circular argument. And circular arguments are falsehoods.

nakedsnake
05-11-2005, 10:36 PM
Draken,
You state Ahmad has valid points but Ahmad is claiming the exclusivity of the Quran that you claim no one has.
You are being double minded.
The nature and knowabilty of truth is crucial to the Christian faith. Christianity claims to posses the objective truth about God and about the way to God through Jesus Christ the Son of God. If truth is not objective, real and knowable, then the Christian faith is not only false but fraudulent.
Christians hold that God made himself known and knowable through the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth.
This same Jesus claimed to be "The Truth". To see and know him is to see and know the truth, for he perfectly corresponds with truth. So the unequivocal claims of Christianity imply a certain theory of truth, namely a correspondence view of truth.

Truth can be understood both negatively and positively, that is, from what is and from what it is not.

So what did Jesus believe about himself? how did others perceive him? who was this solitary figure? Who is Jesus of Nazareth? Jesus thought it was fundamentally important what others believed about him. It was not a subject that allowed for neutrality or a less than honest appraisal of the evidence. C.S Lewis wrote (and it addressees your view perfectly);

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about him: "I'm ready to accept him as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say.
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell.
you must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, The Son of god; or else he a mad man or something worse.
You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher.
He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

truebeliever
05-11-2005, 10:39 PM
Here, here.

If you think about it...would people agree that the Christian faith is based around people that must to a large degree be VERY held within the confines of telling the truth? That to make up stories would make them HYPOCRITS of the worse kind?

It does not gel that the followers of Christ would be that devious. And to make the ridiculous claim that some how the Christian fath was made up to control people! I could think of a vastly superior "false" religion to keep people under the thumb...could'nt you? It's totally ridiculous to make that claim.

When i go over things in my head...i see the line of the 3 desert religions not in linear fashion but in a kind of pyramid.

Toarah on the right and Quaran on the left. Torah - masculine...Quaran - feminine (look at the rounded domes and crescent moon)...with Christ the transcendent third...the spiritual resurection. Torah and Quaran VERY practical words...and the Christ...speaking in terms of raising ones self above good and evil?

Just a thought to muddy the waters.

--------------------------------------------------
Was Christ Simply A Prophet Or God?

A missionary working among children in the Middle East was driving her jeep down a road when she ran out of gas. She had no gas can in her car. All she could find was a potty chair. She walked a mile down the road to the nearest gas station to fill up the pot with gas. As she was pouring the gas into the tank of her jeep, a large Cadillac occupied by wealthy oil sheiks pulled up. They were absoloutly fascinated by seeing her pour the contents of the pot into the Jeep. One of them opened the window and said, "My friend and I, although we do not share your religion, we greatly admire your faith!"

I am told that in a Communist Russian dictionary Jesus is described as a "mythical figure who never existed." No serious historian could maintain that position today. There is a great deal of evidence for Jesus existence. This comes not only from the Gospels and other Christian writings, but also from non-Christian sources. For example, the Roman historian Tacitus (directly) and Suetonius (indirectly) both write about Him. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37A.D also writes of him.

The more texts we have, the less doubt there is about the original.

WORK WHEN WRITTEN EARLIEST COPIES TIME SPAN (YRS) No OF COPIES

Herodotus 488-428BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Thucycidides 460-400BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Tacitus 100A.D 1100A.D 1000 20

Caesars Gallic War 58-50B.C 900A.D 950 9-10

Livy's Roman History 59B.C-17A.D 900A.D 900 20

New Testament 40-100A.D 130A.D 300 5000+Greek
(Full manuscripts 350A.D) 10,000 Latin
9,300 Others

Some people say, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Indeed, it is true that Jesus did not go around saying the words, "I am God." Yet when one looks at all He taught and claimed, there is little doubt that He was conscious of being a man who's identity was God.

Authority to forgive sins: On one occasion He said to a man who was paralyzed, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5) Only God can forgive sins.

Judge of the world: Christ claimed that one day he would judge the world (Matthew 25:31-32). He said He would return and sit on his thrown in heavenly glory. All the nations would be gathered before Him. He would pass judgment on them. If your Pastor claimed this you'd laugh. Clearly he is no mere man.

When the question was put to him..."are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?" Jesus said, "I am...and you will see the Son Of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The Jews started to stone Jesus...when he asked them why they replied..."because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33)

When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.

So how can we test peoples claims? Jesus claimed to be the unique Son Of God; made flesh. There are 3 logical possibilities. If the claims were untrue, either He knew they were untrue, in which case he was an imposter, and an evil one at that. That is the first possibility. Or He did not know, in which case He was deluded; indeed, He was mad. That is the second possibility. The third possibility is that the claims were true.

C.S Lewis put it like this:

""A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to"".

Wilbur Smith, the great American writer on theological topics, said:

""The ancient world had many different devices for determining the future, known as divination, but not in the entire gamut of Greek and Latin literature, even though they used the words prophet and prophecy, can we find any real specific prophecy of a great historic event to come in the distant future, nor any prophecy of a saviour to arrive in the human race...Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth. Neither can the founders of any cult in this country rightly identify any ancient text specifically fortelling their appearence"".

Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).

His appearences to the disciples. Were these hallucinations? Burly fisherman, tax collecters and skeptics like Thomas are unlikely to hallucinate. Jesus appeared to His disciples on 11 different occassions over a period of 6 weeks. Furthermore, over 500 people saw the risen Jesus. Jesus could be touched, He ate a peice of broiled fish (Luke 24:42, 43) and on one occasion He cooked breakfast for the disciples (John 21:1-14). Peter says, "[They] ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead" (Acts 10:41). He held long conversations with them, teaching them many things about the Kingdom Of God (Acts 1:3).

C.S Lewis sums it up like this:

""We are faced then with a frightening alternative. The man we are talking about was (and is) just what he said he was or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that he was neither a lunatic nor a fiend; and consequently, however strange and terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that he was and is God. God has landed on this ebnemy occupied world in human form.""

Questions Of Life. Nicky Gumble.

JUST A NOTE. I HAVE OMMITTED ALOT FOR BREVITY. T.B
---------------------------------------------------
Sorry, the table is a little mixed up.

Draken
05-12-2005, 01:00 AM
Snake, I said valid points, not that I agree unreservedly with them.

I've discussed with Christians who would condemn you to Eternal Hell for your interpretation of Christianity.

You should read what I've posted on this forum first, before you think you know where I stand.

I don't believe Christ is the only Way to God. I don't care that Christians would say I'm wrong because Christ said: "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

I qouted before but I can modify it slightly to drive my final point home: the children on the Path to God drink the milk of the New Testament and understand only its literal meaning. The mature have their own understanding of its inner significance.

Those who understand what I mean understand; those who don't don't. Not my problem.

Cheers everyone!

I hope you find Truth.

Draken
05-12-2005, 01:03 AM
Ciao!

truebeliever
05-12-2005, 05:04 AM
Ya know I was pondering Religion when the Lord answered with that great Simpson episode where Homer refuses to get out of bed on Sunday and forms his own religion.

He sets fire to the house and is saved by Ned Flanders.

A classic.

And nay, i refuse to accept that The Simpsons have subliminal messages.

Ahmad
05-12-2005, 05:14 AM
Peace be upon you again NS,

I want to comment on two points you raised, first the issue of Jesus being a crazy man to say these words if he wasn't a god, and also your remerk on the different versions of Quran.

1- There is a big misunderstanding that happened with God's WORD, Jesus, for this soul was sent to deliver the Gospel as uttered by God, but most of the people couldn't see the sender and were duped by Satan to think that the postman is the one who wrote the message. God says that the blind can not see the UNSEEN, which is what behind the events, behind the visible. The blind need a visible god like the children of Israel with the golden calf. Satan was smart enough to use the messengers (and prophets) as a tool to bind the people in slavery to him, i don't mean any insult here but anyone who worships Jesus, a human being, a mere mortal is actually worshipping Satan himself disguised in Jesus figure!

This happened with Ezra, Jesus and Muhammad, people idolized the messengers and became stuck in them instead of paying attention to the message thus God alone.

The early followers of Jesus were not Jewish nor Christians, they were monotheist Submitters, they were following the same creed of Abraham, Moses and all the mesengers and prophets.

To subvert the message of Jesus Satan was allowed to push the love of Jesus in the people's hearts to an extreme, he used the virgin birth (true), the miracles (true), the crucifixion (happened but after Jesus' soul was raised) as well as the resurrection (false) to create a myth of a mere mortal. Specially the torture he used it to create a trauma in order to induce an Alpha state as some call it, to simply control the minds of the followers, later these followers couldn't believe what had happened, their beloved teacher were tortured infront of their own eyes! to this day some people refuse to believe that their beloved ones died suddenly and this was the origin of the resurrection story.

The bottom line is Jesus was not better than Adam, Abraham, Moses or even Muhammad, he was just one in a long line of prophets and messengers, ironically the people idolized these mere mortals instead of worshipping God alone.

Do you know what is the tragic consequence of this idolatery of Jesus? the celebrity cult (gods and goddesses worshiped as infallible by millions of fans), the hero-worship (which is manifested in the global phenomena of worshipping the presidents and dictators), high divorce rate (since a relationship based on attributing a power, beauty or knowledge to a creature instead of God is destined to fail, it is not true love based on equality), Bullying (because of the dominant culture of dividing the people into two ranks, masters and slaves, this begins from the satanic education system that encourages the youth the youth to assume one of the two roles).

So as you can see, when the people chose one of them and raised him above humanity, the whole equilibrium was destorted, people became divided to this day. True love must be between equals, even if the male is the captain it doesn't mean he is not equal to his wife.

You will find that the subversion of the religions by Satan is systematic, the muslims now literally worship Muhammad (and Ali) besides God!.

Try to go to the top of a high building, look down and you will see the people as small as ants, imagine then that these minute creatures shose one of them to reverence and claimed he is their Creator!

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.


---------------------

2- As for the different copies of Quran, the Khalif Uthman ordered that the Quran should be collected in one set, as before that for 19 years after Muhammad's death, there were only scattered parts of Quran, Muhammad left detailed isntructions on how to collect Quran and put it in order (since the final order is fifferent than the chronological sequence of revelation), do you think Satan didn't interefre in this crucial step? Satan inspired one of the scribes to ADD two false verses to the collected copy, these two verses exalt Muhammad (their idol), Ali was outraged because of this addition that was not found at any other scribe, what happened next is a 50 years war between the supporters of the distortion and Ali and his supporters, this ended with a temporary victory for the corrupt Muhammedeans, naturally after Ali and his family were killed his supporters idolized him (now called the Shiites and they reverence Ali and Hussein his son)! does it ring a bell? is it not the same story as happened with Jesus? trauma induced mind control.

As for the different readings (Hafs and Warsh) they only differe in diacritics which are marks designed to change the verb inflections. etc

Eventhough these differences are minimal, there is a ligitimate question, what about the two false verses and the slightly different copies? God has hidden in the text of the final testament an incontrovertible proof of authenticity, the who le text is built upon a commmoin deniminator, the prime number 19, this hidded secret kept sleeping within the text for 1400 years untill the year 1974 when God sent the messenger of the covenant Rashad Khalifa (prophesized in Malachi 3:1-3 and Quran 3:81) to reveal this miracle through him, it is intended mainly to convince the Jewish and Christians of the authenticity of the final testament and that it confirms and supercedes their books because of the imbedded proof, also it strengthens the faith of those who already believe in Quran.

For further details please check my webiste.

nakedsnake
05-12-2005, 07:29 AM
Draken,
I don't have an interpretation of Christianity I just choose to take what is written in the New testament in it's proper context. as far as any "Christians" condemning me I don't worry because they haven't risen from the dead.
They lack authority.
I read your responses to my posts and it's easy to see where you stand, subjective scripture interpretation, esoteric spiritual meanings of verses, lack of foundation, knowing good from evil, being just like God.
That's what Eve was offered in the garden.
I understand what you mean, and I also understand that it is intellectually dishonest as it divorces the objective and makes it subjective.
You remind me of Pilate, What is truth?

Ahmad,
You go again into the usual monologue based on Quramic theology, but the problem is the evidence for the reliability of the New testament as far as being a historical document is unparalleled. So the Quran says the Christian scriptures were changed but historical verification does not back up the claims of the Quran, was that shatan also?
the Quran says Jesus did not rise from the dead, but the eyewitnesses say he did, let's see eyewitnesses or Quran which came 500 years later? which was delivered by an angel who Mohammed initially thought was a Jin (demon).
I'll go with the eyewitnesses, the Quran has nothing to back up it's claims it flies in the face of historical verification.
The Hebrew text which also has incredible historical verification has the elders of Israel underneath the temple bowing down to the sun in the east, sound familiar? well the Lord he called this detestable, that it provokes him to anger, (Ezekiel 8:16-18).
I have historical verification that Jesus was the Son of god, he rose from the dead, that's a pretty good qualifications.
The Quran says he did not and Im supposed to believe this why? Because it is written in the Quran, circular argument.
God doesn't use circular arguments, he raises people from the dead.

Be honest with the evidence folks, and seek to find, knock and the door will be opened, God loves you, he gave his son for you, don't turn your back on that, may the God of Abraham open the eyes of your heart...

In truth and in love.. Snake

Ahmad
05-12-2005, 07:47 AM
Peace NS,

I think you missed what i wanted to say, what do you mean by a historical evidence when most theologians say these are weak stories of Jesus' rising from the dead? why do you put your trust in hearsay? and even if Jesus rose from the dead, would that make him a god? or wouldn't it be God who raised him from the dead?

I have a physical proof for you, a proof that makes you a literal eyewitness on all the facts detailed in Quran, no longer do you have to have doubts, the physical proof (which is lost in the Gospel) proves to you incontrovertibly that the Quranic account is the truth from your Lord, so now the choice is yours, either to continue a circular argument with me or go and verify the physical evidence of the devine authorship of Quran.

feel free to check my introduction to the miracle of 19 here:

www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html

and also look fro appendix 1 of the authorized english translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa which is available on many websites.

That's if you really care about the truth.

nakedsnake
05-12-2005, 08:23 AM
Peace Ahmad..

Most theologians? modern liberal theologians might say that, but a fringe radical sect is not what I would consider most. when I say historical evidence I don't mean theologians but textual historians, people who can verify that the text has not been changed, I mean Christian and Secular historians that confirm the story directly and indirectly, and the historical rise of the movement from a sect of Jews, with no motivation for starting a new religion as they were already under covenant with God.
don’t assume what I mean Ahmad ask me and I will tell you.
If Jesus claimed to be God, and rose from the dead that would indeed make him God, and Jesus did indeed claimed he was God, that's why he was crucified the charge was blasphemy: because you a mere man make yourself to be God.
The scriptures have fulfilled prophecy and numerous numerical miracles,
Like the genealogy of Jesus found in Matthew in Greek;

The number of words are divisible by seven, evenly.
The number of letters are divisible by seven evenly.
The number of vowels and the number of consonants are also divisible by seven.
The number of words that begin with a vowel are divisible by seven.
The number of words that begin with a consonant are divisible by seven.
The number of words that appear more than once are divisible by seven.
That occur in more than one form are divisible by seven.
That occur in only one form are divisible by seven.
The number of nouns are divisible by seven.
Only seven words are not nouns.
The number of names is divisible by seven.
There are only seven other kinds of nouns.
The number of male names is divisible by seven.
The number of generations is divisible by seven.

But the truth is this in itself proves nothing, but a resurrection does.
And you my friend as I have shown is the one arguing in circles, the truth is the Quran claims the Christian scriptures and the Hebrew scriptures are changed and corrupt. But historians claim that the text is preserved to a unusually high standard, someone is wrong.
You believe this because the Quran with no independent verification says so, I have historical verification and a resurrection.
Be honest with the evidence just investigate from a historical standard if the Christian text has been changed, if they haven't, the Christian text came before the Quran and the Quran is blaspheming the revelation of God.

If you really want truth try that.....

Ahmad
05-13-2005, 05:23 AM
Peace NS,

I will write to you some things here but please before you read get rid of any thought that i am trying to sound or feel better than you, ok?

First, let us think for a minute about the "historical evidence" what is a historical evidence? the revisionist historians say that most of the history that has reached us is fiction written by the tyrant victors and that the truth died with the oppressed!.

Now let's say there was a book that many people testified to its authenticity, why would we trust these people? why wouldn't we use our God given faculties and verify the book for ourselves instead!

A good example is the books of Talmud and Hadith, both are said to be ORAL laws delivered by the prophets Moses and Muhammad respectively, millions of people believe in these books as being of divine origin, why? because being controlled by the group mentality they followed their ancestors blindly.

What if these distortions (whether injections in the scriptures or the satanic books of Talmud and Hadith) were just a TEST ? indeed they are, all these Satanic dogmas are there only to test you, if you take a closer look at the two books of Talmud and Hadith you will find racism, superiority, terror, bias against women...etc

Obviously they are not from God, with your logic someone may defend the two books saying that the historical EVIDENCE is overwhelming.

So how can we find a REAL evidence if not in history? God provided us the answer and we should be grateful, a superhuman mathematical miracle within the text of Quran, confirming every single letter to be divinly authored. It is not like some combinations of sevens, it is an intricate phenomena that is easy to understand impossible to imitate, for example the number of chapters, the number of verses, the total number of words "God" occuring throughout Quran comes to multiples of 19 !

The miracle binds the whole structure of Quran together in one solid building, this phenomena was found also in the book Moses delivered of the Torah, and Rabbi Judah the pious mentioned it in the encyclopedia of Jewish mysticism, so the proof is not new, it was revealed to convince you that Jesus cannot help you nor himself, that God is much too exalted to have a mate or a son, afterall everything and everyone belongs to Him, He is in no need, only those who worship Him alone will be saved, i was hoping that you verify the proof before writing against it without knowledge.

Sura 74, The Hidden secret (Al-Muddath-thir)

The Quran's Common Denominator

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.*
Footnote

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

*74:30-35 This "One of the great miracles" provides the first physical evidence that the Quran is God's message to the world. This 19-based miracle is detailed in Appendix 1 (The Authorized english translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa)

nakedsnake
05-13-2005, 09:04 PM
Peace and Love Ahmad...

When you have historical verification does not mean it's from God that is not what I am saying, you are misunderstanding.
Historical verification that the current versions have not been changed from those of the time period.
That's important, because then when someone claims that the text has been changed it has to match the evidence.
If the text is unchanged, the person or book (Quran) that says the text has been changed is in error, but we both can agree God does not make errors.
And history can be known, the revisionist are wrong, the more sources, independent confirmation, collaborating evidence you have the better.
If not how do you know Mohammed even existed?
I never said if someone defends certain books as being true because the evidence is overwhelming they are.
ahmad do not twist my words.
History can be known and the resurrection of the dead of Jesus of Nazareth is THE SIGN that God used to reveal his truth, mathematics is known even to Jins and Shatan and proves nothing.
So if we have historic confirmation of the Resurrection, historic confirmation that the scriptures have not been altered, and the Quran says they been altered with no corroborating evidence other than the number 19,
Ill go with a man rising from the dead anyday, Ill bet Shatan is a hell (No pun intended) of a mathematician...

Ahmad
05-14-2005, 04:32 AM
No NS,

I think i understand you well, obviously you are rejecting a sign of God without knowledge.

Have you verified the message or the proof confirming it? No, ironically none of those who reject the miracle has anything to say about the message, i wonder why?

But since i am not going into a circular argument as i said before, i will just say that the devils cannot invent a message that talks about God Alone, nor can they control the letters and the numbers standing for them since God is the original Creator of the text.

[34:43] When our proofs were recited to them, perfectly clear, they said, "This is simply a man who wants to divert you from the way your parents are worshiping." They also said, "These are fabricated lies." Those who disbelieved also said about the truth that came to them, "This is obviously magic."

nakedsnake
05-14-2005, 07:55 AM
Peace and Grace to you from God the Father..

These are true words...
I think i understand you well, obviously you are rejecting a sign of God without knowledge.

Have you verified the message or the proof confirming it? No, ironically none of those who reject the miracle has anything to say about the message, i wonder why?


Only I apply them to you, you reject the Resurrection without knowledge, and you have not verified the message or it's proof...

Jesus sayd..

"You don't have his word living in you,because you don't believe in the one he sent.
You pore over the Scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life, yet they testify about ME. And you are not willing to come to ME that you may have life.
I do not accept the glory of men, but I know you-that you have no love for God within you. I have come in my Fathers name, yet you don't accept me, if someone else comes in his own name you will accept him. How can you believe?
While accepting glory from one another, you don't accept the glory that comes from the only God. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father.
Your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope. for If you believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. BUT IF YOU DONT BELIEVE HIS WRITINGS, HOW WILL YOU BELIEVE MY WORDS?"

Gospel of John 5:38-47