View Full Version : Let me ask a few question of the anti-religious . . .
01-12-2005, 11:32 PM
Now, this site is intended to be about our freedoms . . . freedoms of our speech, of our thought, of our daily lives. Knowing this, and knowing that some of us have God in our daily lives, surely, religious freedom falls into the category of what this site stands for. It stands for those of us who wants these freedoms, and stands against those who wish to take these freedoms away.
I find it sort of ironic that there are some members of this site that show total disdain to those of us who like to show answers to problems through religious thought.
It is the belief of a few people in this forum that those against religion are just as bad as those who wish to take away our rights as human beings.
I have been PMed on more than one occasion about this topic, asking me to pose the question . . . and I was sort of wondering about this myself, anyway. Maybe its just because I seem to have brass balls that I have been chosen to be a spokesman, of sorts . . . but by all means, please tell us your reason for wanting to seemingly supress God by answering the questions below without flaming me or anyone else (in other words, intelligently)
Can those of you who are AGAINST religious discussion please tell me why you would supress those of us who decide that through God all things are possible?
Don't you think that, maybe, you are just as bad as those who wish to take our freedoms away by trying to supress our religious based threads?
Does the act of trying to supress these religious responses go agains the freedoms that this site stands for?
On behalf of myself as well as others, I ask this.
01-12-2005, 11:48 PM
very good question and point made . i am anxious to see the responses . it has always seemed to me that "tolerance" in a religious context as used by most means christians must be tolerant of other belief systems ,but those other belief systems are not obligated to be tolerant of the christian. i have also noticed that in the politically correct wave in american society , it is unacceptable to revile any religious or ethnic group except for christians . makes me think christians are targeted by satan like no other group. wonder why that is ?
01-13-2005, 04:17 AM
What really puzzles me always is this situation:
1- Mr.A says: "my god is the moon"
2- Mr.B responds: "a moon is no god, you should worship its Creator"
3- Mr.A says: "the moon is the creator!"
4- Mr.B responds: "God warned us in His scriptures of a severe retribution for those who worship the creatures instead of Him alone"
5- Mr.A says: "WHAT???YOU MUST BE CRAZY"
6- Mr.B responds: "Ok, i warned you, it's your call!"
7- Mr.A shouts: "GET OUT OF HERE, OR I WILL KILL YOU $#%$#%%#
Some people feel threatened when people start speaking about God, as if their life is in danger!. I believe this is the source of "conformity" in our modern societies, it is because some people don't want to be exposed, so they make it their goal to con-vert evrybody else, so that they will not be exposed! what are they hiding?
Why do the pornographers want to spread their disease! why do the homosexuals want to con-vert everyone? why aren't they satisfied with enjoying themselves, without imposing their perversion on us!?
I for one won't conform, God willing i will never stop inviting to God as i see belief in God as the only way to defeat the enemies of humanity, but i know my limits and never force my beliefs on others, God says that there shall be no compulsion in religion.
Is tolerance suppression of beiefs? is tolerance accepting evil? is tolerance wanting everybody to conform with only one opinion?
Tolerance in my religion is Peace:
[109:0] In the name of God, The Gracious, The Merciful
[109:1] Say, "O you disbelievers.
[109:2] "I do not worship what you worship.
[109:3] "Nor do you worship what I worship.
[109:4] "Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
[109:5] "Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
[109:6] "To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."
01-13-2005, 05:51 AM
Good Morning Darkchild and others in this thread.
May I pose a question? Basically, back to square one, "what is your definition of a Christian?"
And I have to disagree whole heartedly with those that feel that Christians are tolerant of others' beliefs, etc. Christians have lost their ways somewhere down the road. I haven't called myself a Christian since the early 80's. Not too go to much into it, read the Bible! It tells you exactly what type of Christian NOT TO BE!
Please, Darkchild and others, give me your definition of "Christian". Or what it means to be one. Thanx, get_real.
01-13-2005, 06:50 AM
technically it is what a christian believes that makes him a christian -not what he does . each individual christian is in some transition between what he was before and what he will become .continuous change is involved ,which is known as sanctification in the bible . i will agree that many christians don't behave in a way that makes christianity attractive , demonstrating the love of God ,but many do also.i could go on a monologue about the reasons for this ,but suffice it to say there are many teachings in the churches that are destructive deceptions ,poisonous doctrine injected by the enemy of our souls, that retard growth and are contrary to the scriptures . many are misled and misinformed ,resulting in behavior issues .
a christian is one who believes that human nature is flawed , that we sin because we are born sinners ,being descendants of Adam ,as the bible teaches .he believes that God and sin cannot co-exist and that God and sinful man cannot and do not have a relationship . and that man needs this relationship to be whole,to be restored to right relationship with his creator .and that God did what he had to do to restore it by becoming a man,in the person of jesus christ, and living a sinless life and willingly suffering torture and death on our behalf . just as one man's sin made us all sinners, here one man's obedience brought righteousness for all . so being a christian is accepting what was done for us ,which we couldn't do for ourselves,and having that relationship restored . that's the way i read it .
01-13-2005, 06:59 AM
"so being a christian is accepting what was done for us ,which we couldn't do for ourselves"
Just trying to understand, what and why "we couldn't do for ourselves"?
01-13-2005, 07:04 AM
Thanx for the response. Nope, doesn't work for me.
Nature flawed, and all the rest? I believe in a different Adam(atom) and Eve(evolution).
Is it possible that there is some type of existance after we depart, sure why not! Is it possible for some man named Jesus (which I don't believe there was), to 'ascend'. Sure why not!
But I'm not going to hate (with an OK from my Christianity) those that are not Christians.
And I refuse to accept Satan, hell, and the 'devil made me do it' jibber. We are here, let's make this a nice place to live, love, and provide for each other. Isn't that sweet! :-)
01-13-2005, 07:40 AM
well i thought it was an honest question so i gave an honest answer.i didn't know you just wanted points to argue about .you were being disingenuous saying to read the bible and then making it obvious you don't believe what's in it . you can believe what you want,but that doesn't make it true . it takes more faith to believe that the complexity of the human nervous system,for instance, evolved from a micro-organism in a puddle of goo 5oo million years ago than it takes to believe there is a God who made it all. only someone who doesn't want to believe in God could believe that . you asked for a definition and you got one .what's your definition?
01-13-2005, 07:40 AM
As a Roman Catholic Christian:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, and the only Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all the ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one in being with the Father, through Him all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was made flesh of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, He suffered and was buried, and rose again on the third day in fulfillment the Scriptures, and ascended into the heavens, and is sited on the right hand of the Father, and will come again with glory to judge living and dead, of whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, that proceeds from the Father. With the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified, and spoken through the prophets:
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgivness of sins. We look for a resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
And that's a pretty close representation of the Nicean Creed, however I do not believe in the Catholic Church, or ANY church for that matter. And to me, with or without the Church, is what makes a Christian, by definition of BASIC belief.
Now, in my original question . . . I NEVER mentioned Christians, period. My question was aimed at those who are constantly saying things resemblant to, 'This is a freedom forum, not a religious forum,' and so forth.
There are a few out there, they know who they are, and they haven't answered yet.
Now, get_real, the fact that you believe in the POSSIBILITY makes you an agnostic, which is cool with me. You at least entertain the possibility of a higher being.
My questions are directed to the flat-out athiests.
And to Ahmed . . . may the peace of God be with you
Its not ALL the things which we can't do for ourselves . . . its the original sins of Adam and Eve, the original sin that Christ died to have forgiven, is the ONE thing that we cannot accomplish unless we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour. Its just MY belief, you can either believe it or not . . . either way, you're a non-hating, devout holy man, and that's cool with me.
get-real, you have your own beliefs, and that's cool with me, as well. Like I said before, I'm stating this to all of those who have said to, 'keep God off this site.' Because the people who say things like that, are just as guilty as the NWO for even stating that. If you don't want to hear about God, then just scroll down to the next thread. If I don't want to hear about how there is no God, I just scroll down as well.
I'm just trying to bridge the gap, so I can understand non-believers a bit better, and they can understand us, without just assuming we are 'Jesus Freaks,' or 'Terrorist Muslims,' or so on. That's my only intention.
So, whover missed the initial 3 questions, please refer to my original post up at the top of this page.
01-13-2005, 07:41 AM
read post again. repeat if necessary .it's explained in the post .
01-13-2005, 07:54 AM
DarkChild, you got balls for sure.
I have some questions myself.
Why do people take it to heart when someone on this site says something along the lines of 'go away, we don't want you here'?
Why do they cave in and disappear?
Have they been blocked?
Why do they give that much power to others?
01-13-2005, 07:58 AM
Didn't mean to upset you or argue with you.
Seems too many Christians use Christianity to hide behind, oh and be saved as well. Because what if there really is a hell. The same for other religions. Yes, I mentioned the bible because the bible (for many) is not 'seen' as fundamental as many Christians see it. When I first read the bible some 40 years ago, I just couldn't understand why Christians 'don't get it'. Do I belong to Mensa, NO. Do I actually know who wrote the bible, NO. But there is something to be said about those that can see 'blueprints' in the bible. Are there good things in the bible, sure. I hope that you and others will not get angry when I say that some of these conspiracy sites and members believe that the whole "Jesus" thing is one of the greates hoaxes. I've even known "Christians" who openly admitted it. So why do they go along with it. Figure it out.
I appreciate reading all sites, we all gain some knowledge of something. Let's be adult, and share, and leave in peace. :-)
01-13-2005, 08:04 AM
Because when you tell someone to 'go away . . .,' especially for the purpose of having a certain or any religion, it tends to make seem, especially in a forum full of freedom fighters, like there is no freedom to worship.
I've never told a non-believer to get out . . . I was always taught to practice tolerance. I just feel that for others not to show it, especially to or from someone who believes in a forgiving and tolerant God, is just distastful.
Have I ever told anyone, "EWE, you're an athiest! Get out!" Nope . . . I never have. I do expect to be respected by others in the way I respect them.
Now back to the point . . . all I've seen so far are my questions being answered by more questions.
That's like the wife catching you looking at a nudie mag, and you reply 'what nudie mag?'
Now I'm looking for serious answers here, and it looks like its going to become a flame thread. That's not cool. If you guys who are non-believers who cannot accept believers here cannot answer . . . or if you guys who are non-believers who cannot accept the discussion of God . . .
Look at it this way . . . some people were scared enough to ask ME to ask . . . hey, you're people.
If God is just a make-believe person in the sky . . . then what are YOU afraid of?
01-13-2005, 08:11 AM
I really look for the day when all the people can debate without hating each other.
As for the "we are born sinners", i believe it is not a logical idea for two reasons,
1- If Adam and his wife sinned, why would i be responsible for their deed? i am sure that some of my relatives are evil, would that make me evil by blood?
2- Would God send us to the test without means of answering the questions ourselves? i mean why wouldn't WE be able to redeem ourselves by ourselves?
But anyway i believe that all of us ate from the forbidden tree, not only Adam and Eve, and that's why God sent us to take this makeup test, however i believe also that the record starts from ZERO SINS from the moment of inception till the age of 40 as per Quran. Because Adam and his wife asked God for forgivness for the original sin, and God did redeem us all from this sin only, however we had to come here to purify ourselves from the traces of doubts in His absolute authority (doubts developed when we accepted Satan's invitation).
I also believe that no soul can carry the sin of another, everybody is accountable individually, and the test is here and now, every minute you can say NO or YES to Satan, there is no such easy way out of "i accept Jesus, i am free". This is just to make you think.
P.S: If the owner of this thread doesn't want any other subjects on his thread, please let me know.
[5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food. Note how we explain the revelations for them, and note how they still deviate!
[5:76] Say, "Would you worship beside GOD powerless idols who can neither harm you, nor benefit you? GOD is Hearer, Omniscient." [5:77] Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
01-13-2005, 08:29 AM
as for christians who admit the "jesus thing" is a hoax , they are not christian ,and probably never were . you asked for a definition of "christian" but believe the "jesus thing" is a hoax. is that not being disingenuous?
i also don't know what you mean when you say "hide behind christianity" . can you be specific .?
and what is it that christians "just don't get"? am i a member of mensa? no. could i be if i saw any value in it? probably .so what? what's the point? that you are intelligent? you are intelligent .that's obvious . so what? so are other people .intelligence is not necessarily a great blessing .the happiest people i have known have not been the most intelligent. it's good to know things but better still to be happy .so intelligence can be an obstacle .tell me ,what is it that i "don't get"?
what in the world do you mean when you say there are "blueprints" in the bible? blueprints for what? i certainly don't get that part . maybe i'm not so intelligent after all.
it is a historic fact that jesus was put to death by the roman government. it's recorded by secular and jewish historians(josephus ,for one)so saying he didn't exist is to ignore fact . the only question is ,is the bible's account of WHY he was crucified the truth? i believe it is .why? because it makes sense to me . the bible makes sense to me, but if i didn't want it to, it probably wouldn't. i guess we all believe what we want to believe .i want to believe in God ,in his inherent goodness,that he loves me as an individual ,that he answers prayer and that he watches over me and my loved ones .do i believe it because i want to or because it's in the bible? both i think,but if it weren't in the bible,i don't think my wanting to would be enough .what i don't understand is why you don't want to believe it.
01-13-2005, 09:26 AM
When I said I don't belong to Mensa, I was making light of being just plain folk and seeing more to this bible than the whole Jesus concept/idea whatever. And I can see your passion in your belief, that's really fine with alot of people. But I'll just jump to your last question: 'why I don't want to believe'. So what that I don't? So WHAT? I do not believe I'll go to some hell/damnation for not believing what you have to say. I never said anyone is going here or there if they don't go along with me.
And yes, people do hide behind "Christianity", and here in Pinellas COunty, Florida is living proof. Wish you could visit. YOUR eyes might just widen. The Christians here would be the first in line to pull the 'levers' in any torture chamber (with a grin on their face!)
Believe me I KNOW!!! I was going to elaborate on my bad experiences, but I won't. I do not fear the idea of death, I've come close many times.
However, I've known many religious fanatics who feel it is their given right to attack, yes I'm talking especially (here we go again) the Christians. I feel you are a good person Billiard, and ya know what? So am I.
01-13-2005, 01:08 PM
are you telling me that,according to the quran ,God doesn't count anything you do before the age of 40 against you? so a guy could rape,steal,kill blaspheme and enjoy it till the day he dies and so long as he is under 40 when he dies,God doesn't mind?!? that's pretty incredible .
01-13-2005, 01:21 PM
of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa
The Crucial Age of 40
What is the age of responsibility? If a child dies at the age of 12, without even hearing about God, does this child go to Heaven or Hell? What if the child is 15 years old, or 21, or 25? At what age will the human being be held responsible for his or her beliefs?
This question has puzzled researchers of all religions for a long time.
The Quran sets the age of responsibility at 40; anyone who dies before this age goes to Heaven (46:15). If the person believed in God and benefitted from belief by nourishing and developing the soul (see Appendix 15), he or she goes to the High Heaven. Otherwise, the person goes to the Lower Heaven.
Your first reaction to this piece of information is objection: "What if the person was really bad, evil, and an atheist, will he go to Heaven if he died before the age of 40?" This is because you are mean, while God is the Most Merciful. Our tendency is to "put them all in Hell." People who objected strongly to this Divine mercy cannot come up with a cut-off age of responsibility. They ask questions like, "What if the person was really wicked?" The answer is, "Does God know that this person was wicked?" "Yes."
"Does God know that this person does not deserve to go to Heaven?" "Yes."
"Therefore, this person will not die before the age of 40." As simple as that.
God is the only one who terminates our lives on this earth. He knows exactly who deserves to go Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell.
Early in 1989 a man by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy was executed for killing a number of women. The whole nation agreed that he was one of the most vicious criminals in history. So much so that his execution was one of the rare occasions where the opponents of capital punishment did not protest. On the contrary, many people actually celebrated his execution. Numerous journalists, editorials, and politicians lamented the fact that justice took eleven years to execute Ted Bundy. They stated that Bundy should have been executed within a maximum of six years after his conviction.
According to the Quran, this would have been the greatest favor anyone could have done to Bundy. He was 42 years old when executed. Had he been executed five years earlier, at the age of 37, he would have gone straight to Heaven, and he did not deserve that.
As it turns out, Bundy was one of the signs God has given us to confirm that anyone who dies before 40 goes to Heaven. Bundy's name, Theodore Robert Bundy, consists of 19 letters, and he confessed to killing 19 women just one day before his execution.
There were many other signs from God.
Delivering this important piece of information is one of the responsibilities given to me as God's Messenger of the Covenant. It is not my personal opinion. It is noteworthy that both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were assassinated just a couple of months before their 40th birthdays.
01-13-2005, 05:17 PM
Basicly, we're responsible while we're still a gleam in the eye.
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.
I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Lyrics by Monty Python
for the movie, Meaning of Life.
A real pisser, hmmm?
01-13-2005, 07:06 PM
No one seems to be answering the original three questions of this post. I think you might have to get more ballsy and specifically name names DC.
01-13-2005, 09:55 PM
Thought I'd read this thread for a while, before responding. I will try and answer your questions honestly.
1. I am not against religious discussion whatsoever. Why I am against is when someone keeps judging me to hell because I don't believe what they believe. I am for dishing back slop do those who would serve it up. I don't have a high tolerance for those who would play God.
I will use maddy as an example. She always suports what she says through scripture and doesn't try to dictate at all. I have noticed many people being able to type, being greatly influenced by their faith and God and yet, they haven't been all trapped up in religious dogma, condemning others to hell in this forum.
I honestly feel that quite a few threads have been sabotaged through religious idiocy. I see no faith nor God in politically correct religious smiting of others. It's just not cool.
3. This site stands for open conversation and will obviously tolerate all the zealots that come along, just like in life, I guess. Everyone is free to be who they want, supposedly. And that does not give any person the right of soul condemnation.
I don't know what the answer is to this question. The one thing I do know is that if people can dish it out, they should be able to take it.
Me. I sometimes bite back, no doubt. Then if it continues, I will walk away. Simple as. I might choose to fight back if I care, and when I walk away it is because I no longer care enough to bother fighting.
I love to learn about people's faiths and religions. I really do. It's the pricks who like to hide behind religion, that I don't like and I believe I have openly displayed that disaffection.
If I haven't answered your questions or you have anymore, please ask away freely.
I will type what I honestly feel and when I feel I cannot, I will leave the forum; for me, there will be no point in staying.
2. Am I bad? Perhaps in some people's eyes. I have visited other forums where the heavy religious judging was left to the specific religious threads and found faith and God throughout many posts sans a dictator style of religious BS.
Plain and simple, I believe their are religious disruptors at this site and they are hiding behind religion. Period. Anyone else can choose to believe whatever they want. For me personally, it puts me off the forum when it is constantly religion, religion, religion, religion, religion.
Why can't it be people of great faith discussing many things alongside religion, without all the judge and jurying?
It doesn't appear that religion is drawing this forum any closer and of course, I could be completely mistaken.
For me, this site is my getaway and the religious zealots are not whom I chose to associate within cyber space. To be brutally honest, they amuse and annoy me.
01-13-2005, 10:40 PM
For me, this site is my getaway and the religious zealots are not whom I chose to associate within cyber space. To be brutally honest, they amuse and annoy me.
I agree, Mary, but no matter what happens, this forum was a great start, and those of us still interested in its original purpose can find some other way to assemble with each other.
No disruptors will ever dissuade me from the truth again. Let them knock themselves out trying.
01-16-2005, 03:06 AM
:-) I for one have no problem discussing religion DC.
I attend a small Pentecostal church among other things.The only difference in doctrine you might expect from me is that I am more interested in the Social justice side of religion than evangelical fundermentalism which i find actually contrary to christs spirit of contrition! :-)
01-16-2005, 04:43 AM
Wow . . . great post Oz. Take the preaching out of it and what remains? The goal.
Personally, I'm tired of a certain few members trying to convert everybody by telling them they're going to hell if everyone else doesn't believe in what he/she believes. On that I can agree. I don't want to be told in what way I should worship, but I'd like to see all aspects of life through all aspects of politics and religions without being told I'm hopeless of being saved. The beliefs of others must be concluded by the individual. And to be told you're going to hell because you don't believe in God in the right way makes that person as much of a blasphemer as the man who scared the children with his sermons were.
This should not be a place of evengelism . . . but we should all look to God to assist us in making the right choices.
And, may I add, that there is one person I'm SICK and TIRED of, telling me that there is only one way to God, period. Each individual has had different experiences and is an organism unto his/herself. Each person must find God in his or her own way, and a self proclaimed messenger cannot be the sole basis for a change in one's beliefs. Let me explain this.
I had asked a member in a PM to explain a certain aspect of his/her beliefs. The responses I got were in a condition based reply, If I wanted to learn about this aspect, I should convert altogether. It sounded like the equivalent of a fucking army recruitment video. I don't try to PUSH my views on others . . . if I seem like I do, I appologize . . . I just try to explain my point of view. And I understand that sometimes I can get overzealous about it . . . I've been trying to keep that in check. Freedom of religion does not mean that you can scare people into believing what you think is right . . . that's propoganda.
And I do believe that we have a muslim propaganda artist in here . . . but at least what he/she's pushing, although contrary to my personal beliefs, isn't a violent belief.
And to that person I say:
DON'T TELL ME THAT I'M WRONG, AND THAT I'M GOING TO HELL BECAUSE IT IS YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF! DO NOT JUDGE ME, YOU SMUG FEAR-MONGER! THIS IS THE SAME METHODS THAT THE HATE-MONGERS OVER IN THE MIDDLE EAST USE TO GET PEOPLE TO RUN INTO A SKYSCRAPER WITH A PLANE!
Other than that, you're good people . . . and still have my respect of you and your beliefs . . . but obviously not your interpersonal skills.
01-18-2005, 01:44 AM
Billi, you were the nicest of all.
We love you in Him my friend. ((((((billiard))))) sister hugs
Give dark a hug for us, and don't forget to tell him about the Saviour :-)
dark, stay sweet and fight the good fight, people are frail, but not to be feared :-) His love to you..Please give kind regards to rush and ephesians too ;-)
and thank them for me sincerely.
Hey you guys, today is a very special day, and week I might add, as some have strived to very much become like gods and have acheived it! What blessed irony!
This two weeks has them speaking like Him in the most profound way, for when it comes to 'me' and talk on 'myself' they can proudly declare:
"I never knew you"
*sound of door closing*
No need to check your pm's
Lynn has left the building.
01-19-2005, 09:38 AM
One of the basics of real Christianity is that you can't force belief in anyone. There are two interpretations on this issue: Calvinism, which says that God chooses who will believe, and Arminianism, which says that men has the free will to choose to believe. In either current, no man can force anyone to be a christian !
Christians are supposed to bring the good news of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. (Gospel=good news). It is up to you to accept that or not.
Anyway, Christians believe that all men were made in the image of God and deserve respect and consideration as human beings. Jesus told His followers to LOVE their enemies.
That's it. Very simple, indeed.
I guess in this forum we should be able to expose our thoughts with respect. It is impossible for a Christian not to mention religion in the discussion of world domination because our religion has an explanation for End Times. Anyway, I can't force this explanation on anyone.
However, there are facts that are obvious for anyone. NWO, fascism, secret societies. These should be subjects of discussion in the forum regardless of religion.
All the best for all.
01-19-2005, 12:21 PM
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