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Akbar
07-15-2005, 02:16 PM
Who do you choose? When I read about Jesus in the Bible. It seems like the authors of the book are confused about who is Jesus. In one description he is a Prophet, another son of god, and another god. I conclude that the Bible is not actually talking about a person named Jesus. It is talking about the history of Christianity. The history of Christianity and it's struggle with understanding the word of God. The Bible actually descibes Jesus as the word of God, which is the true meaning. There is no evidence that a person lived named Jesus or any of the other Prophets for that matter. If so where are their relatives? So this brings us to Muhammed. He is the only Prophet that we have evidence ever lived. So this brings me to the realistic conclusion that all the other Prophets were only concepts of human evolution and that Muhammed was the complete make up of all of the Prophets into a human being. So God was building the perfect human being with the beginning of each Prophet until Muhamed was the final product. So there is no war between Jesus and Muhammed. Only the fools that say they follow them. If you are an intelligent believer then you will see that Muhammed is the Christ. Not the old Jesus who was just a concept, but he was the real human being who continues to cause miracles every day. So I choose both because you cannnot have one without the other.

peace

Ahmad
07-15-2005, 09:08 PM
peace Akbar,

The only unforgivable sin is "idol-worship" which in the case of Jesus is claiming that he is the son of God, one aspect of idolatery is to make distinction between the prophets.

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

Now what you are saying is that Muhammad was the perfect human, there is no such thing as a perfect human, only God is perfect. Quran mentions some mistakes he did and God guided him out.

Muhammad was the last prophet but that doesn't make him the best.

Ahmad

truebeliever
07-15-2005, 10:15 PM
Hello Ahmed.

I cant remember if i sent you an apolagy or not. If not, I apolagies for my outbursts.

Partly they were the result of poisening with "additives" to which i am extremely sensitive. Partly due to the usual finacial stressors of life and my aggressive nature which is nescessary for confronting power directly as I often do in my other endevours away from here...

I finally decided to be poor and do what I do best...unpaid work annoying those in power in my own way.

Anyway...It is a shame to see a split between Christianity and Islam. Why dont we agree to disagree?

I respect the best of Islamic culture. The worst is more often than not brought on by the covert and overt efforts of the so called "Christians" and extremist Zionist/Jewish elements.

Read Michael Ashers "The Real Bravo 2 Zero". A thorough discrediting of the COMPLETE tales written by the survivors of a failed foray into Iraq by the british SAS in 1991. The usual cliches of the Arabs are in the original books. Asher (former SAS himself & fluent Arabic speaker) puts all that in its place and gives a real account of the kindness and respect given to an adversary by the local militias who caught them.

Read too the accounts by John Pilger, respected journalist, who recounts how he felt safer walking the streets of Baghdad before the war and after crippling Western sanctions, than he did in the center of London. Again, respect and humility and people who did'nt even know who he was, begging this strange Westerner to tell the overfed Westerners of their suffering...and what suffering! And how many "innocent" Muslims have now been beaten and attacked in London?

No matter your religion or your adherence to it. To have your family wiped out by an "errant" bomb is hard to take lightly. I am not so sure I would'nt gladly be taking the lives of the invader myself when put through that. Maybe even putting a bomb on a bus to kill "innocents" who are so fat, lazy and stupid they will tolerate passively, the actions of their government, done in their name.

The "civilized" West could at least maintain their anger instead of awaiting the next organised for them protest rally, where they can have a nice walk in the sunshine and catch up for lattes after to discuss the latest home renovating techniques.

Innocence will get you killed. Fate, or God, does'nt tolerate innocence for 5 minutes. The times are too serious.

I agree Ahmed that Christianity suffers from a serious case of the "idolatries". They go to Christ as a "loving Father figure" who will hug them like Daddy never did and then they can all go home...saved?

Christ brought many things. A sword and great compassion. There are times to turn the other cheek and their are times to speak the truth loudly and boldly. The Christian Churches have subverted peoples energies away from the truth and into a warped and disempowered view of Christ. Christ was anything but passive victim. Christ forced people to look at themselves.

I have no problem with God incarnating into this world to offer up himself into unimaginable torture and death as an example of the deep personal love the UNKNOWABLE creator of the Universe has for individual human beings. Perhaps God was making up for his bad treatment of Job.

I agree wholeheartedly that at times we worship the cup instead of the life giving water itself.

Whatever the finer points of bible theology or whether Mohammed was mad in the end or sat on food while others starve lets take the books for what they are.

We can all disagree on many things and not kill each other. We are ALL made in the image of God and I'm sure Christ nor the Prophet Mohammed meant their words to justify misery and suffering.

I'd like to see a little more sword action and a little less peace action to right these wrongs. A sword is also the Intellect, the ability to tell fish from foul...we should weild it more often.

Ahmad
07-15-2005, 11:14 PM
peace TB,

welcome back! as for the apology, don't worry, peace is always possible.

I want to tell you that the idea of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as being separate religions is a satanic hoax, there has been always one religion called "Submission, the religiono f Abraham", but the people got biased to their prophets and books and thus got stuck each in the message given to them.

As you know Satan divides and God unites, God willing the walls built by Satan to divide us are going to fall very soon.

Also some people mix between the Islam as a universal religion and the Arab culture, the reason for the violence against civilians is some satanic sayings attributed falsly to Muhammad in the man-made books of Hadith (the equivelant of the Talmud), these sayings claim that Muhammad ordered the killing of the captives, this ofcourse contradict with Quran which advocates that charity goes to the captives untill they are freed or ransomed, also the Hadith advocates killing the disbeliever, while God says "There shall be no compulsion in religion".

As much as i feel sorry for the victims i know that it is because of disregarding God, God says that whatever bad happens to us, it's because of us. I also feel sorry for the youths who kill themselves and civilians because of the overwhelming injustices they experience, however i also feel sorry for the millions of westerners who are practically incapable of stopping their corrupt governments from agression!

So as you can see, the world is in a deep pit of misery and helplessness, and this needs a divine intervention which will come God willing on November, in the form of the Quake of all time, which all the scriptures warned of.


I have no problem with God incarnating into this world to offer up himself into unimaginable torture and death as an example of the deep personal love the UNKNOWABLE creator of the Universe has for individual human beings. Perhaps God was making up for his bad treatment of Job.


In all sincerity, i have to warn you against it. The issue of an offering presented to God was distorted by the Jews, they thought that the act of offering a good offering itself is capable of redeeming them, thus they focused on the offering instead of the feeling (the reverence of God) attached. Satan dragged them into ever offering better offerings, to the extent of burning their kids alive! (a historical fact) thinking that in this they will be surely redeemed. A prominent Jew later (Paul) later took the idea to the extreme, God offering His ONLY son to redeem all the people, (which is considered in the primitive thought as the best offering, the only male son). The truth is only YOU can redeem yourself by doing righteous work, there is no such thing as a free redemption (by accepting Jesus on the cross), Job suffered because of his following Satan, God is never unjust towards the people.

You noted a good point, the victim mentality the Christian world is being molded in through the story of the corss, Quran tells us that while forgivness is the best, it is not so when evil is unrepentant.

truebeliever
07-15-2005, 11:40 PM
The truth is only YOU can redeem yourself by doing righteous work, there is no such thing as a free redemption

Could'nt agree more. In fact I need to say that again. I could'nt agree more.

Three hail Mary's and a quick sing song and I can return to my comfort zone. The reason why we're in the shit we're in.

Quran tells us that while forgivness is the best, it is not so when evil is unrepentant.

I'll give that to the Quaran.

There is true evil afoot. Awaiting the second coming in "real terms" is time to the devil. The second coming is RIGHT NOW.

Best to you Ahmed.

07-15-2005, 11:52 PM
Question, why was it necessary for God to bring the devil to his level and make such a bet against Job, when he knew that the guy had integrity, to me it sounds like being falible?
Or that most of the story it was from has been lost in time, deliberately or not, will we ever know?

Ahmad
07-21-2005, 12:35 AM
peace T,

I think your question is, why does God test us when He already knows our qualities?

If that's the question, here is an answer,

1- We were all living happily, totally satisfied with God's provisions in Heaven.

2- Untill one of the angels rebelled and refused to SERVE the Human being, Satan thought he is better than he, since God created him of some kind of energy (smokless fire) while man was made of clay.

3- Later Satan was given a chance to test Adam (and all of us), he said that the forbidden tree has the independent ability to grant him eternal life (thus he claimed the tree is a god), we unfortunately believed him and ate, at that point the visible dimension on earth became visible to us and the test began.

4- For eventhough Adam (and all of us) repented for that specific sin and God accepted our repentance for it, we still had remenants of doubt in God's absolute authority and posession of power, so God ordered all the rebells (Jinns and Humans) to go down, study and make up their minds on who is the real God, who is the real source of power (skills, beauty, knolwedge..etc) the creatures (Satan behind them) or God alone.

5- So Job was subjected to the same test and unfortunately he followed Satan temporarily and naturally Satan afflicted him with pain and suffering as he does always, but when Job realised his mistake, he said to God:

[38:41] Remember our servant Job: he called upon his Lord, "The devil has afflicted me with hardship and pain."


Becaue belief alone is not enough for judgment my friend, Paul tried to convince us that the law (deeds) are not important and that belief is enough!, the Jews on the contrary put the focus on the deeds, however the truth is deeds based on belief is the only thing that can redeem us.

So when Job refrained of transgression and returned to God and righteous work, God recompensed him.

[21:84] We responded to him, relieved his adversity, and restored his family for him, even twice as much. That was a mercy from us, and a reminder for the worshipers.

please feel free to read a more in-depth analysis of the story of Job here,

http://www.usn2161.net/coincidence#Job.html


Ahmad

Dreak
07-21-2005, 09:00 AM
Peace.

Question here..could you name one thing that you can add unto Christs work that will save ( redeam ) you ?

Did God say " phew..that was rough..I did my part..now all you guys have to do is A,B,C and then your saved ?

nope..he said " IT IS DONE ".

So now, when you "sin", you think you have to goto Mass ? goto confession ? If you think that way..then you truely dont believe in HIM.

"I did not come to destroy the word but to fulfill it".

Ahmad
07-21-2005, 10:23 AM
peace D,

Is this a Q or A?

Jesus was sent to the Jews to tell them that they lost the spirit of the law, now we have the two extremes the "law alone" Jew and the "belief alone" Christian, neither the Jewish law is completely true nor the Christian belief is. We gain redemption through righteous work based on belief in God alone.

When i sin, i turn to God and repent.

Ahmad

07-21-2005, 10:38 AM
thanks for the link AHMAD, I will check it out.
I don't post much to the theories of religeon, because I feel that I just don't know as much as a should by now, I do though like to read your thoughts on the topic though.

Dreak
07-21-2005, 11:11 AM
peace A.

what is "repent" ?
what is "redemtion" ?

nobody could ever abide by the "laws".

The fact is, the laws dont apply to us anymore.
Thats what the Cross was for..to wipe away all sins so we could be with Him.

There is no "sin". Thats the Gosiple.

And If you do walk with God..then your on a personal relationship..and I think it would be impossible to sin unless you turn away from him.

Take a look at some civs that dont even know about the Bible..much less have ever seen a TV. Are they subject to damnation because unfortunatly there is no Bible around ? Does God punish them ? Are they damned ? Do they believe in "sin" ? I doubt that..I think the Holy Spirit is everywere..

one last point..Could God make a rock so large that He himself cannot lift it ? hehe :)

no really..Is God limetless..or are there Things that He CANNOT do ? think about it..then post :)

D.

Ahmad
07-21-2005, 12:44 PM
peace,

The theory of Paul is that the new testament frees the people of the law, thus they don't need to work righetousness anymore to be redeemed, for just by accepting Jesus they will.

This contradicts the very message of Jesus who came to complete not to abrogate,

Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

----------------

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."


So as you can see Jesus stressed that works (according to the law) is what matters, and ofcourse they must be based on belief in God alone.

The idea of free-redemption is false, the whole test is about putting into practice the righteousness you believe in.

The snake oil that Paul presented unfortunately lead millions to Hell, these millions thought that JUST by accepting Jesus' death on the corss, all their sins (even future ones) are gone, just like that! which is a satanic license to sin.

As for the people who don't recieve the law, God knows about them, thus there are different standards to judge them, God is never unjust towards the people.

Ofcourse God is Omnipotent, He is capable of erasing your sins without the need for a cross, and that's why repentance if sincere can easily erase your sins, the ones which you don't persist on doing knowingly.

Ahmad
p.s: is that your real name? i use initials only with nicknames.

Dreak
07-21-2005, 01:16 PM
Peace ..

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mat 16:8 [Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

------ faith seems kinda Important here aye ? ---
Dreak
no really..Is God limetless..or are there Things that He CANNOT do ? think about it..then post :)
Ahmad
Ofcourse God is Omnipotent, He is capable of erasing your sins without the need for a cross, and that's why repentance if sincere can easily erase your sins, the ones which you don't persist on doing knowingly.

you didnt answer the question of others that dont know about " God " what do they do ?

you didnt answer another question...WHAT is it that God Himself CANNOT do ?

Ahmad
07-21-2005, 01:51 PM
peace D,

Faith is stressed because Jesus' only mission was to bring it into the focus again after being long ignored by the Jews, for the Jews focused on the deeds, the rituals and lost the meaning, the faith.

For example, Jesus and the Jews argue alot about the Sabbath, which was originally made for them to stop seeking material things and seek God alone instead, for one day, they took the Sabbath to an extreme and even refused to do righteous work on that day, a clear example of loosing faith and meaning, and focusing on the physical practices.

As for the people who don't know about God, how could that be? i believe even on the most rempote island in the pacific the primitive tribes know in their hearts about God, perhaps they give Him a different name, but the instinct in all of us is that God exists.

[7:172] Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves: "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."

So we are all born already with this knowledge, the prophets and the books bring it to the forefront.

As for what God cannot do? Nothing.

Ahmad

Dreak
07-21-2005, 01:58 PM
As for what God cannot do? Nothing.

are you sure ? I mean absolutly sure..

As I stated before..think..and then post..I dont want you do come back and say " well..Yea..thats a "givin" ..

What are things that God CANNOT do ?

there ARE some things that He cant do m8...

PS. There is no Faith before Jesus..just laws..

Ahmad
07-21-2005, 02:02 PM
I seek refuge in God from Satan, the rejected
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful


[2:259] Consider the one who passed by a ghost town and wondered, "How can GOD revive this after it had died?" GOD then put him to death for a hundred years, then resurrected him. He said, "How long have you stayed here?" He said, "I have been here a day, or part of the day." He said, "No! You have been here a hundred years. Yet, look at your food and drink; they did not spoil. Look at your donkey - we thus render you a lesson for the people. Now, note how we construct the bones, then cover them with flesh." When he realized what had happened, he said, "Now I know that GOD is Omnipotent."

Dreak
07-21-2005, 02:05 PM
Your not answering Ahmad...tisk tisk...

What CANNOT God .....

dont evade .. I have more respect then that..

answer..or dont ...

peace D.

Dreak
07-21-2005, 02:40 PM
peace..

we were going back and forth on this post..you were logged in..then out ?

Once again..Ill ask of Anyone...

What things God CANNOT do ?

Its very simple..and I cant believe that you dont know the things that He cant do..

On the premis that it is taking you all SO long to answer ( Should only take about 1 minute to answer what God cannot do ) is my premis that mabee you dont fully understand Gods will ? or the truth for others, exluding yourselves..

Life is very complex..to Him its very simple..dont put your complexities on others..mabee its not nessesary or wanted..

Still..

WHAT CANT GOD DO ???

Ahmad
07-22-2005, 01:08 PM
peace,

Are you asking about the Capability or Willingness ?

07-22-2005, 06:07 PM
FOR GOD SAKES!!

Use your brain. Just believe in a GOD. Any GOD. The GOD of your choosing. But, he must be a GOOD GOD.

GOD IS GOOD!! That's all you need to know. Conduct yourself in a GOD-like manner and all of the rest is just a bunch of BS!!

You know what that means!!

Give of yourself and do not ask what others can do for you.

truebeliever
07-22-2005, 09:15 PM
What things God CANNOT do ?

That is a stupid question Dreak.

God created the Universe...what more do you need?

God gave man free will.

Like any loving Father he lets his children go and hopes they will return like a prodigal son.

If he chooses, man will destroy himself.

The Life Force has eternity and will start again.

If you are indeed someone who takes the Bible seriously, why do you even ask that question? Do you remember the Devil baiting Christ?

I have baited and abused Ahmed since I got here.

He has remain dignified in the face of many attacks.

For this he has my respect.

Christianity will stand or fall by itself. It does not need you.

The Gospels and Islam are NOT mutually exclusive.

There are dark forces at work trying to create a strong division between Christianity and Islam.

07-22-2005, 09:32 PM
"There are dark forces at work trying to create a strong division between Christianity and Islam."

TB,

TRYING TO CREATE????

Dreak
07-23-2005, 08:37 AM
God cannot Lie.

God cannot not love you.

God cannot be unjust.

God had his own Son killed for our sins to save us right ? right from the beginning he told us that would have to happen..

But..why..why would He set up the whole thing in the first place ?

He Knew that Lucifer would fall..He Knew that Adam and Eve would fall..He made it that way..WHY?

I dont ask or wonder about Jesus or the Bible anymore..I know im saved..I try to understand the Big Picture. Why would He put all this in motion ?

You might suggest that we all have a choice. Um..I didnt choose to be born with "sin" .. God chose that for me.. His doing,His plan,I trust Him to get me out of the jam He put me in.

I personally think that Everyone is "saved" .. Unless he is choosing to Purge a part of himself in the eternal firepit of Hell.

Everything is going as planned by the Big Man.

Peace D.

Ahmad
07-23-2005, 09:22 AM
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

peace D,

God cannot not love you.

[22:38] GOD defends those who believe. GOD does not love any betrayer, unappreciative.

[57:23] Thus, you should not grieve over anything you miss, nor be proud of anything He has bestowed upon you. GOD does not love those who are boastful, proud.

[3:32] Proclaim: "You shall obey GOD and the messenger." If they turn away, GOD does not love the disbelievers.

God had his own Son killed for our sins to save us right ? right from the beginning he told us that would have to happen..

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

[17:15] Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger.

I dont ask or wonder about Jesus or the Bible anymore..I know im saved..I try to understand the Big Picture. Why would He put all this in motion ?

[5:18] The Jews and the Christians said, "We are GOD's children and His beloved." Say, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? You are just humans like the other humans He created." He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, and to Him is the final destiny.

You might suggest that we all have a choice. Um..I didnt choose to be born with "sin" .. God chose that for me.. His doing,His plan,I trust Him to get me out of the jam He put me in.

[33:72] We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

I personally think that Everyone is "saved" .. Unless he is choosing to Purge a part of himself in the eternal firepit of Hell.

[7:169] Subsequent to them, He substituted new generations who inherited the scripture. But they opted for the worldly life instead, saying, "We will be forgiven." But then they continued to opt for the materials of this world. Did they not make a covenant to uphold the scripture, and not to say about GOD except the truth? Did they not study the scripture? Certainly, the abode of the Hereafter is far better for those who maintain righteousness. Do you not understand?

Everything is going as planned by the Big Man.

[112:0]In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.
[112:2] "The Absolute GOD.
[112:3] "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.
[112:4] "None equals Him."

igwt
07-23-2005, 09:57 AM
The Lord preserveth all them that love him...
Psalm 145:20

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Proverbs 8:17

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away.
Hosea 14:4

For God so loved the world...
John 3:16

Jesus wept
John 11:35

Dreak
07-23-2005, 11:17 AM
Peace be unto you Ahmad..

I havent read the Quaran. It seems like you know what It is saying ..

However..You must be carefull of "selective" quatrains ? ( dont know how you say it ) .

I could do the same thing out of the Bible m8..

Wars could be started over those "selective" ( and has been )

[22:38] GOD defends those who believe. GOD does not love any betrayer, unappreciative. [57:23] Thus, you should not grieve over anything you miss, nor be proud of anything He has bestowed upon you. GOD does not love those who are boastful, proud. [3:32] Proclaim: "You shall obey GOD and the messenger." If they turn away, GOD does not love the disbelievers.

Now..If I was a true believer in the Quaran and of Mahamad, And I wanted to be spiritually on Gods side..I could mistake these quotes as "be on Gods side and hate those that dont believe ? "

Just outa ignorance of the Quaran..does it say anywere about Adam and Eve ? and how they were "betrayed..or lured..or decieved by the devil ? "

If so..then Why would God permit it..or even not know about it from the get go ( im assuming here that Adam and Eve are in the Quaran..)

Dreak
07-23-2005, 11:53 AM
BTW.. BA.

FOR GOD SAKES!! Use your brain. Just believe in a GOD. Any GOD. The GOD of your choosing. But, he must be a GOOD GOD. GOD IS GOOD!! That's all you need to know. Conduct yourself in a GOD-like manner and all of the rest is just a bunch of BS!! You know what that means!! Give of yourself and do not ask what others can do for you. _________________ In Peace, BlueAngel

I would stay out of this one BA..Its a discussion beween souls and there beliefs..not someone that does not believe in a God to begin with..(dont make me find those quotes of yours again..) take a week off and read or find..or pray..yea..Pray would be a good start sis. You will find each other if your looking Peace..

TB..gonna quote ya here..

If he chooses, man will destroy himself. The Life Force has eternity and will start again.

So your the " God rolls the dice " believer ?
Or are you suggesting that we are a trial run for the perfect solution .. If we fail ( which I would think he would know that b4 time began ) then nixo on the humano thingy ? just start again ?

If you are indeed someone who takes the Bible seriously, why do you even ask that question? Do you remember the Devil baiting Christ?

I indeed think Im beginning to Understand What the Bible means to me ( though I count myself Blessed that I even have a bible..not like some others on this planet that never even heard about the Bible much less any other "religion" )

yea..and it wasnt the Devil .. it was Lucifer ( meaning server of Light..which is kinda high rank for God dont you think ? ) why would he Know his highest would fall.. quote me on that one..anyone..

Christianity will stand or fall by itself. It does not need you.

How do you know that ? I would think It needs anyone and everyone to Preach ( voice there word ) on the truth.. Isnt that what your doing right now on the NWO thing ? Or..will the NWO stand or fall by itself without your voice ? NWO is higher and Mighty beyond the grasp of God ? Isnt Spirituality the Base and Premis of all that is happening ?

The Gospels and Islam are NOT mutually exclusive. There are dark forces at work trying to create a strong division between Christianity and Islam.

You sure about that ? somewhere along the line there was a division. ( I would think from early stages of writes and passages its division has been made m8 ) .its not being "tried" It has been "established" .. the division between truth has been made..

"I say love is higher then all these things"

"there are Angels among you..you dont know who they are"

Carefull m8s..

Peace D.

truebeliever
07-23-2005, 09:32 PM
Dreak...God is many things...unknowable creator of the Univers. "Wise Old Man".

I can appreciate the many levels of mans imperfect understanding of God.

I am not a Hawking man..."God as the laws of the Universe" if thats what you mean.

Chrisianity is INCOMPLETE in many ways...that includes the lack of taking into account that it WOMAN who gives birth.

The half assed Catholic attempt to rectfy this goes no where.

Even with the vast inconsistencies present in the bible I take that as the limits of people writing from memory after the event.

Do you think I am a Christian?

I am NOT.

I am "me".

I belong to NO ideology. I simply take in data and using my faculties of logic and feeling can come to an approximation of the truth.

So far Christianity passes.

God is MORE than Christ. There will be a continuing Revalation of "truth".

We will have to use ALL our faculties to maintain our way.

Muhammed NEVER claimed to be God. Therefore we can give him a break from being perfect.

For me, the Gospels and what I know of the Quaran are not mutually exclusive. Just peoples insistence that they are.

Indeed it's hard to know the angels from the devils on this site.

Keeping the SAME "nik" is a good start.

Something myself and others, including AHMED have been doing since we got here.

Ahmad
07-24-2005, 06:18 AM
peace Dreak,


Now..If I was a true believer in the Quaran and of Mahamad, And I wanted to be spiritually on Gods side..I could mistake these quotes as "be on Gods side and hate those that dont believe ? "

I don't know why you get this wrong conclusion!, however there are other verses (that the Muslim terrorists deliberalety ignore and like you said selctively emphasise some verses, check my latest article on my website on that issue) which urges the believers to be good to the disbelievers.

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

--------------------------

As for Adam, Eve and the original sin, please read this article on my website:

The Original Sin (http://www.usn2161.net/Satan.html#The_original_sin)

Ahmad

Dreak
07-24-2005, 07:15 AM
I know that I have an unusual point of view on the Bible and God, so Im just gonna take it easy posting on such matters from now on :)

While Im open to opinions, ( and will try to educate myself more on the Quaran ) I allways respect somebodys religious beliefs. Just sometimes I come across in the wrong way..my bad.

Peace Dreak.