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Draken 08-28-2005 03:42 PM

Official Auschwitz figures
<a href="">Official Auschwitz figures!
Which figure must we believe by law? Which figure is not considered holocaust denial? Which figure is not considered anti-Semitic? Which figure is not considered hate?</a>

freeman 09-15-2005 02:41 PM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
What the heck, I've already roiled the waters today, so I might as well jump into this one, too.
After all of the propaganda and counter-propaganda disseminated on this issue, I have no idea what the real Holocaust numbers should be, and I doubt whether I could estimate them within a million;however, this general trend seems to emerge: As one searches further and further away from mainstream sources, a much more compelling case is made to support the notion that the Holocaust casualties have been overstated for Jewish victims and grossly understated for everyone else, especially the six million or so Germans exterminated by Uncle Joe Stalin after the war.
I would be extremely curious to see how a prosecution might be attempted against someone who pursues the cause of Holocaust denial. From what I've observed so far with Ernst Zundel, no one who challenges the official Holocaust figures is likely to get a legitimate chance to present a defense in open court.
And that alone is curiously suspicious.

nomad 09-15-2005 03:08 PM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
A better strategy for Zundel would be to focus

on how many Christians were killed by Jews and

sue retroactively for losses.

Draken 09-15-2005 04:22 PM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
It seems that the thing courts focus on is not whether a "Holocaust denier" is actually telling the truth, but that it's against the law to question the official story!

Ted Pike quotes in this <a href="">documentary clip</a> a winner of an ADL sponsored nationwide law student competition in writing a modern anti-hate law in America, a Joseph Ribakoff:

"Any person, persons or organization that publicly shows a film or a movie before it has been submitted and reviewed by the agency shall have committed a misdemeanor."

Hence, it would be a crime to criticize an identifiable group, and crimes need state agencies for monitoring, censoring and enforcing these laws.

Ted Pike says later in the clip:

"But surely you may say if the accused can defend the truth of their statements in court he should have nothing to fear. Forget it! For Ribakoff the criteria for guilt of innocence is not truth. Rather, if one verbally humiliates those who have been given federal status as members of a protected group, then group libel has occured. This is what he (Ribakoff) means when he says "regulating group defamation is status based, not content based..." The truth of that content of that so-called libel does not matter. It will not be admitted as evidence in court.

freeman 09-15-2005 05:05 PM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures

It seems that the thing courts focus on is not whether a "Holocaust denier" is actually telling the truth, but that it's against the law to question the official story!
Exactly. Because then you don't have to let the individual defend himself in court and possibly expose the truth.
All illegal, immoral and highly unconstitutional.
The Thought Police.
Funny how "group defamation" of Christianity never seems to sound any alarm bells...oh, now I see:
"regulating group defamation is status based
...since when do Christians have any status in this brave new world?

nohope187 09-15-2005 06:21 PM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
I have absolutely no idea what the real figures are, but I'm guessing that they were overstated for Jews to conveniently put the Anti-semetic term into use and that there were probably much more of other people than Jews killed that was unreported.

truebeliever 09-16-2005 01:01 AM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
I have always believed that Hitler and his backers were mass murderers in "absoloute" terms.

In the terms of "context" of the day and the threat posed on Western European culture by a rabbid dog political system to the East...Hitler was fully justified.

I have yet to come to a basic conclusion. Perhaps I never will.

There are many historians who I would say write very fairly on Hitler and exibit some admiration for him on the political and military level. They will not dispute that the "Sonderkommando" and "Einzatsgruppen" who roamed the rear areas existed and were viscious thugs.

I have read letters from Generals and Privates alike complaining of the arbitrary nature of the reprisals by the rear area police...mostly staffed by locals as many Germans could not serve in them...they committed suicide or deserted. Usually avoiding punishment when caught as it was considered a terrible job.

And this is the point. Throught the "historical record" on the one hand the Germans are viscious thugs ripping babies from mothers arms and striking their heads against rail road cars and on the other hand Himmler is writing letters complaining they cannot get any Germans to do the dirty work. So we are supposed to believe this was the reason for the "gas chambers".

A country that made "Sarin" in the thirties must resort to "pellets" of "pesticide" that majically turn into "cyanide gas" when dropped through a hole in the roof of buildings that dont actually have holes in their roofs according to Allied reconnasence photo's of the day.

I used to work with "pure" crystalline cyanide in the mining industry. We used to drop 1 ton pallets of the stuff and spread it all over the ground occassionally by accident. We'd shovel it back in by a suit and respirator with people standing ten feet away watching with only normal work clothes on. If they got smart i'd throw chunks at them. Real deadly?

And what of the hundreds of exposed holocaust survivor frauds?

What of the walking skeletons? I thought they got frog marched to gas chambers? Why were they still hanging around?

What of the marches to other camps? Why not just shoot them?

The list of inconsistencies are SO GREAT that I left with the undeniable conclusion that the cheif prosecution witness is completely full of shit.

The vast majority of the claims were from Uncle Joe. The Allies had backed a mass murdering tyrant. Better to make this as justified by claiming you were fighting an even more evil tyrant.

That Jews suffered I have no doubt. As did many others.

Hitler needs to be rehabilitated to the status of mere mortal so we can understand the dynamics of WW2 and the forces at work.

Obviously the forces at work do not want this to happen so we are stuck with Hitler as devil incarnate...and Uncle Joe as - hard, but fair.

Draken 09-16-2005 01:22 AM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
VERY relevant site for this discussion.

<a href="">The Website of Carlos Whitlock Porter</a>

Draken 11-12-2005 06:29 AM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
<a href="">Important [Auschwitz] Documents Found in Moscow Archives</a>

Searching in Russian archives through tens of thousands of long-suppressed documents, two revisionist historians have dug up revealing German documents confiscated by the Soviets and kept secret for decades. Swiss educator Jürgen Graf and Italian author [/b]Carlo Mattogno[/b] together made two lengthy research visits in Russia in 1995, the second lasting four weeks. Each is the author of several revisionist works dealing with the Holocaust issue, and both spoke at the 12th (1994) IHR Conference.

In the Archives of the Russian Federation, Graf and Mattogno found voluminous records about Auschwitz and other German concentration camps liberated 50 years ago by Soviet forces. These include Russian-language eyewitness reports and investigative documents, and reports by Soviet investigative commissions, as well as some German documents confiscated from various camps (but not Auschwitz). Graf and Mattogno photocopied about 1,000 pages of documents from these Moscow archives, which are now being evaluated and translated.

70,000 Pages Screened

The team carried out much more extensive research at the Central State Special Archives on Viborg street, located in an outer area of the Russian capital. Among the voluminous original German records stored there are tens of thousands of pages from Auschwitz camp alone. Here Graf and Mattogno spent nearly every day of their visit screening an estimated 70,000 pages of Auschwitz records.

Less than five percent of these documents are of relevant interest, Graf estimates. They spent little time, for example, going through the 100-page file of construction records of horse stables at Auschwitz, or the 300 pages concerning the payroll of camp gardeners.

At a cost of one dollar per page, Graf and Mattogno photocopied more than 3,000 pages of Auschwitz documents from these Archives. Their investigations are far more extensive than the modest researches there by Prof. Gerald Fleming and Jean-Claude Pressac, two major anti-revisionist Holocaust researchers. As their signatures on the control sheets show, they saw perhaps 50 of the 650 dossiers there. (It was in this same Viborg street archives where British historian David Irving located the handwritten diaries of Minister Joseph Goebbels for his new biography of the wartime propaganda minister. See "Revelations from Goebbels' Diary," in the Jan.-Feb. 1995 Journal.)

A Preliminary Evaluation

From the outset Graf and Mattogno assumed that they would probably not find anything of really sensational importance.

Any documents confirming gas chamber killings or an extermination program certainly would have long ago been triumphantly heralded. Similarly, any documents showing clearly that no prisoners were killed in gas chambers, or which disprove the existence of a wartime German extermination program, would probably have been removed or destroyed.

All the same, they did find documents that conflict with the orthodox extermination story. One refers specifically to a "delousing chamber for crematory II" ("Entlausungskammer für ein Krematorium") in Birkenau. This document apparently clarifies the real meaning of one or more of Pressac's so-called "criminal traces," as well as of the widely-cited letter of Jan. 29, 1943 that refers to a "gassing cellar" ("Vergasungskeller") in Birkenau crematory II. It is often claimed that this must be a reference to a homicidal gas chamber. (See A. Butz' "Some Thoughts on Pressac's Opus," in the May-June 1993 Journal, pp. 27-31, 35 [n. 23].) This long-suppressed German document, which was overlooked by Fleming and Pressac, suggests instead that this "gassing cellar" was installed to save life, by killing typhus-bearing lice.

Also found were documents showing the roster of sick and chronically sick people at Birkenau over extended periods. According to the extermination story, of course, all such persons were immediately put to death as unfit for work. Other documents confirm the strict rules that prohibited SS camp personnel from mistreating Auschwitz prisoners.

Additional documents unearthed by Graf and Mattogno establish that remarkably large numbers of prisoners were released from Auschwitz. (This is in addition to prisoners who were transferred to other camps.) During just a few days in June and July 1944 alone, 186 short-term prisoners were set free. (Over the entire period of the camp's existence, there must have been thousands.) Most of these were Poles who had been sentenced to "re-education by labor" at Birkenau for terms of four to ten weeks for breaking employment contracts. After serving their sentences, says Graf, these prisoners returned to their factories. Nothing has so far been published anywhere about these large-scale prisoner releases. As Graf notes, if many tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews were actually killed in Auschwitz in May-June 1944, as alleged, the released prisoners could easily have told the world about it.

Numerous valuable documents relating to the Auschwitz crematories were also found, says Mattogno, who is sorting out and evaluating them.

Incidentally, an enormous quantity of confiscated German documents dealing with other areas are also held in the Central State Special Archives. These include, for example, about 9,000 pages of records of the wartime Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories. Such documents may shed new light on key aspects of Second World War history. Unfortunately, the future of these archival treasures is uncertain.

Not Found

Graf and Mattogno searched in vain for Soviet wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs of the Auschwitz area, including research at the former Soviet military archives in Podolsk, east of Moscow. They similarly failed to turn up records detailing deliveries of coke to the Auschwitz crematories in 1944 -- documents that would finally nail down the maximum number of corpses that could have been cremated in the facilities there. Perhaps these records are located in one of the ten or twelve other archives in Europe where scattered Auschwitz documents are stored.

As a result of these two 1995 research visits (which were financed by sympathetic friends), says Graf, "we now know not only what documents are in these two archives, but also what documents are not there. That's also important." Carlo Mattogno is working on a detailed study of the German camp crematories, to be published in 1996 in Italy, as well as on a specialized treatment of the "gas chambers," which he hopes to publish in 1997.

Overlord 11-12-2005 07:32 AM

Re: Official Auschwitz figures
It's not merely a numbers game. The fact that the Russian people and the German people historically have not been able to have their loss recognized, does not mean that the Jewish people must hide their sense of grief and the unfathomable pain they must have suffered.

Russia has suffered under the tyrant rule of Tsardom for a millenia at least, and J Stalin happened to have access to the most efficient killing machine of them all. But under Putin the Russian people are still threatened and opressed, as we all know. They have not been able to have their loss acknowledged still. Just like the German people who are just now starting to come to terms with their past as the destroyer of Europe. They have not had any right to grieve, obviously. Perhaps not a very just and reasonable effect but still, understandable.

As all historians know, their science is being written by the winners. It is an ever evolving science and the further away from the event, the more one can detached from emotions, observe the overall structure of events. Details disappear and the bigger schemes stand out. WWII is still a recent event in our history. There is little point in arguing about numbers until we understand the situation from where the continued strife originates.

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