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-   -   Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists (http://www.clubconspiracy.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2228)

Overlord 11-27-2005 07:53 AM

Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
It seems like it needs to be said more explicitly and without too much decorum;

When making the final preparations for the introduction of the new Fascist party in Italy,
Mussolini (all his political life until then being a stout member of the Italian Socialist Party, until he rushed off to war as part of the Pro-War Leftist of his party), and his fellow socialist pro-war comrades...

..well, out of the seven who attended the preparatory meeting two days before the launch of the party, five were former Marxists or syndicalists, according to Zeev Sternhell, in the book: The Birth of Fascist Ideology.

Now, this originally socialist attitude towards the instrumentalization of the individual is present also in Fascism, and as the dictatorship of Mussolini matured, Fascist rhetoric increasingly voiced explicit hostility to the individual ego. Fascism had always been strongly communitarian but now this aspect became more conspicuous. Fascist anti-individualism is summed up in the assertion that the death of a human being is like the body's loss of a cell.

- Among the increasingly histrionic blackshirt meetings from 1920 to 1922 were the "funeral services". When the name of a comrade recently killed by the Socialists was called out, the whole crowd would roar: "Presente!"

Isn't that just lovely, it's like the BORG from Star Trek.

truebeliever 11-27-2005 06:38 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
Interesting OL. BTW, i never liked Mussolini. Such a bombastic prick and full of Amphetamine most of the time.

On the subject of him being first a "socialist" and then a "fascist". Well, maybe so. I was also a die in the wool "socialist" but now I vacillate through the day from benevolent Fascist/King to Libertarian Christian.

Just because someone changes their point of view means...very little, other than they are open to the truth...as they see it.

Also, as you have most likely not read ANY of DRAKS posts on the particulars of Evola and "fascism" I will attempt (poorly) to summarize.

I believe Evola talks of a balance between individual rights and those of the community at large. Evola points out the simple fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE and HIGHLY dangerous to implant in peoples minds that you can be ANYTHING you want and do ANYTHING you want to whatever degree.

Mother nature sets firm boundaries. So does God. These get passed down through the ages via tradition and community. Two things the so called "progressives" and "liberals" wish to destroy at EVERY oppurtunity till the individual is "blowing in the wind" and at the mercy of the State. All alone with no connection to the past and no tradition which assures him of his place in the world.

Evola makes pains to point out that the so called "progressives" are actually "regressing" as they run full throttle AWAY from the source and into greater and greater chaos under the guise of so called "freedom". Hitler took great pains to bring back tradition and German connections with their roots. He said they were special. I hear that everyday on the radio and telly in Oz...telling me Aussies are "unique" and "gifted"...the government does'nt get labelled as "ultra-nationalistic". Amazing! When Hitler says it -to love your place and people- it is "evil".

So, i hope i hav'nt abused Evola's EXCELLENT and VERY long articles but I assure you they are worth perusing.

Also, i am not yet sure of Hitlers place in history. but one thing I do know is that his current position in world history is so ridiculous that our Grandkids will be laughing at our gullible stupidity.

truebeliever 11-28-2005 05:35 AM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
Also, on the nature of Mussolini's death. He was beaten to death and finally shot. His mistress was shot, then they were both hung upside down by their feet. There is the pic of the old woman trying to make modest adjustments to Mussolini's mistress's dress.

That sums up the Left and their version of justice.

Even Mussolini at his worst gave you a trial.

Overlord 11-28-2005 05:13 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
I completely oppose your revisionist attitude towards Hitler and Mussolini ( I know you made a half-baked attempt at allowing the possibility of Benito being a retard, but then you recant.. ). It is unacceptable to me. The truth that has been so obsessively hallowed here on this site is not close to you.

Regarding Julius Evola, I also accept the dynaic forces he speaks of, and understands the necessity of the concepts he writes about, at that time and at that place. To pull his theoretical and highly ephemeral reasoning out if it's context into our age, however is both unapologetically naive and destructive. He wrote out of an era that is very much changed from ours. The populations of the world and the flux of immigrants due to our need of cheap labor, as well as our increasingly densely populated earth has altered our reality quite vastly from the time Evola wrote his different works. Remember how late in the history of Europe that Italy became one united country. The very different attitudes and traditions, even languages, of the city-states in italy had a profound effect on Italian political thinkers. Originally a Sicilian, Evola was born in Rome in 1898 and this was during the time that the working class began to come out of it's rural places due to the mature industrial revolution. The differences between his homecountry (Sicily) and his native town of Rome must have made quite an impression on him, like so many others. To feel the need to go back to ones roots must have had a very specific cause in Evolas personality. It is however interesting that he very distinctly tried to pry away all politics from the church. But nonetheless, the fascism of Italy and Germany had very little to do with Evolas high-flying mystical philosophies. His writing only proved ample feeding ground for destructive and greedy leaders seeking intellectual standing ground, when confronted with the possibility of questioning.

Remember, to call oneself a Fascist in our world of literature and cinema carries the same weight of social stigma as a person calling themselves a Communist. If you wish to carry the Swastika innocently, on the singular grounds of it being an ancient sun-symbol, then you are a fool.

If you wish to live in a world full of understanding of the importance of tradition, of meaning and purpose, as well as a sense of community, then call it by its right name, instead of provoking the wrong people.

A fascist is a nazi and they are hateful warmongers. Not because the name causes them to be so, but because that's what we call hateful warmongers. And if you say you systematically hate all Jews (or any other minority) and they should have less rights than ohers, than you are a true fascist.

Indred 11-28-2005 05:45 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
Giulio Cesare Andrea Evola of the Hyperborean. You know of course he published an Italian version of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

truebeliever 11-28-2005 07:11 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
Quote:

The truth that has been so obsessively hallowed here on this site is not close to you.
In your humble opinion?

Have you watched ANY of the little doco's I put on my site detailing the absurdity of the so called "Holocaust"? That 6 million Jews were SYSTEMATICALLY murdered in "homididal gas chambers"? No, you hav'nt have you.

The endless lies by the Zionists to provoke symptathy from the world? The endless list of confirmed FRAUDS who state with tears in their eyes the horror of the dead bodies and then they are exposed for Australian born Catholics who have NEVER travelled over seas...the list is a MILE long!

The enddless stream of mainstream books detailing the facts of WW2 and the LIES and propaganda of BOTH Soviet Russia and the Allies!

The ACTUAL transcripts of the Neuramberg trials where "expert" Allied witness's state they found NO ONE who had died from poisen gas.

The facts surrounding "Ultra" and the MASSIVE treason from the head of German Intelligence (Willhelm Canaris) all the way down. With an open book on German intentions where is the radio traffic and facts and figures on the "atrocities" so percuilar to the "evil" Germans? It is SO lacking that the "history writers" have to make up "code words" and try to sell them as evidence that what is actually meant are murdered Jews. It is ABSURD!

With my 20 year research on WW2, once i got a few details on the other side of the story, it was EASY to peace together the puzzle.

If Himmler was mass murder'er, why was he so eagerly anticipating his role as German post war Elite? Why was Goering so calmly approachin American forces if he was involved in the Holocaust? Why did they make NO attempt to escape?

These are some SIMPLE tests of logic you can build up for yourself.

I could write for ETERNITY on the fraud of the mainstream version of WW2 and Adolph Hitlers place in it.

Do i believe Adolph was a little angel as opposed to your version of him as devil incarnate? NO! He was a "polition" under orders from others. Just as Churchill was. Just as Rooseveldt was. But you will NEVER criticize the MASSIVE war crimes of the Allies. NEVER! You will NEVER apply the same standards. NEVER! You are SO caught up in the "lie" that you will NEVER! even attempt to find an alternative view to your finely honed world view.

You are perhaps too old to do this. To have your world view shattered is not nice but nature takes it's course. Those that are open to truth in the end prosper. Those that "deny" the reality before them will perish. Most simply suffer from depression or cancer. Such is nature in her wizdom.

This is a FINE example of YOUR reasoning...

Quote:

I know you made a half-baked attempt at allowing the possibility of Benito being a retard, but then you recant..
I recanted? I was simply pointing out that amazingly, for such a "brute", in "Fascistic Italy" you got a "trial". When the Reds got hold of him they used the usual methods of the "mob". Do you have ANY knowledge of what Europeans went through under Soviet domination? Do you? And if you do have that knowledge you perhaps will understand that most of the "stories" of the brutality of the Germans came from the Soviet Intelligence services. EAGERLY lapped up by the Allies and thrown into the history books to justify their UNPARRELLED support of the most BRUTISH dictatorship to EVER walk the Earth.

I am not interested in supporting "fascism" or ANY 'ism' for that matter. I am interested in the TRUTH!

Then you will find WHO is benefitting from the CONTINUAL infantile attachment to the "myth" that Adolph Hitler was a walking incarnation of the devil himself. You will find also WHO is benefitting from the so called "fascist" Bush and who is constellating the idiot "mob" aginst this patsy.

OL, it is YOU who are brainwashed and incapable of "detached" reasoning on matters of history. You must "label" at EVERY oppurtunity. This is the ONLY defence you have.

Let me make this clear.

The "Holocaust" is an EASILY proved fraud. That Jews suffered? Of course! Thanx mainly to a muderous Allied bombing campaign and in the context of TOTAL, MERCILESS war against the civilian population of Germany. Hard to be nice when your cities are going up in flames eh?

Questioning the "facts" of WW2 does NOT make you a Nazi.

If people wish to kill or harm Jews or ANY group of people then they must be charged and given a trial and if found guilty thrown in jail! We do NOT need the RIDICULOUS, ABSURD, UNBELIEVEABLE stupidity of the "hate crime" laws being used to prevent OPEN debate on the fraud of Germanies guilt for WW2 and to justify the extermination of Palestinian Arabs in the Zionist quest for a homeland all the way to the river Babylon.

You are SO low on facts and have your head stuck in to many books. You need to get out and SPEAK to people who were there.

Let justice be done though the heavens fall.

The "Jew" is not a protected species. He must stand up and take the criticism like a man. The Judeo/Christian base of our legal system will protect him if the freakin "Secular Humanists" dont destroy that first with their made up laws based on the whims of men. Such is the hate crime law which will swallow up the Jew as well as all people.

You are a fool to the slaughter. I would'nt care but if i'm going to be free, you have to be free.

this 11-28-2005 09:01 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
Hey OL,

I share TB's consternation at your incurious nature. As you may be aware this site is an offshoot of Henry Makow's savethemales.ca website which has a fair bit on it to say the least. We assume you have a passing familiarity with the content and the links on it.

So, for instance, on this thread you are saying that Italy's dictatorship in the 1930's was staffed by 'former' marxists. I don't think many here would be surprised by that.

I must further develop your argument for you to shoot it down. Is the problem today fascism, is that what you are insinuating? Well maybe it is, but for the sake of clarity could we drop the label and just describe the problem?

Yes, what is the problem, as you see it? I believe in your opening statement here you said the main problems facing us were religious fundamentalism and capital whatsis thingy (or something). We have to describe the problem first - no?

Overlord 11-29-2005 03:32 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
AH, I almost forgot. Dear Truebeliever;

I am aware of the many agreements between Soviet and the Allies, where tragically many deserters were sent back to the Soviet be slaughtered. I am aware of the countless millions (far more than any other war or period at any time) killed by Stalin and his hell-machine. I am also aware of the mind-numbing terror of the life that was suffered by the people of the east-bloc under communist regime. I am also aware of the honorable behaviour of the more well-trained of the older soldiers of the german army (in comparison to the SS and the later, more immature soldiers at the latter stages of the war). However, that still leaves little to chance when it comes to the very efficient incinerators and gas-chambers that you so vehemently refuse to believe in.

The horror is not the numbers, it is the intent to eradicate an entire race just because it was convenient, and the public and often international dehumanization of a people.

As I have written to you before, Stalin and his crimes have not been marketed as the most evil deed, because that country has not entirely been allowed to be free from totalitarian opression. There is still, in Russia, a Tsar that refuses to let his people free. If, somehow, a foreign power would have "Balcanized" the Soviet union in the sixties, that country would have been forced to acknowledge the unbearable horrors that had been commited against them and heir neighbours. But such is not the case. In this world we live in, we do what we can with the tools we have. We have no tools to make Russia accept responsiblity for the death of a third of the Ukrainian population, for instance.

And as for the communist slaughter of Mussolini, this argument is inane. There were trials in Soviet as well. And we know what they were like.
And Communist murder, Fascist murder, Democratic murder, Vegetarian murder.. It's all just as bad.

That hate-crimes are allowed to have certain special laws is a confusing subject since it demands of the reader a very good understanding of civil law. These special laws that refer to certain identifiable groups of people are made in reaction to certain phenomena in society where these groups are constantly singled out in violent acts. New laws cannot be based on hearsay and rumors and there must be years of statistical evidence and clearly identifiable cases to support an amendment to legislation in this manner. That you think everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law, is clearly the whole point of the law. But everybody is not equal in society. The law tries to rectify that.


If you found websites like this but speaking constantly about your type of person (that which signifies you from an outside perspective) and if this type was a minority...

If you were attacked just because people knew what type of person you were...

If you were not allowed into a pub because of the type of person you were...


Ther are many other situations that can occur depending on your specific type of minority-

Disabled
Black
Gay
Jew
Religous/non-religous
Poor
Single Parent
Ugly
Fat


But are you attacked because you are a single parent?

Are you not allowed into a club beacuse you are an atheist?

Are you threatened with death on many web-sites because you are poor?

Overlord 11-29-2005 05:04 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
And This, thank you for your question.

I am leaving this site and a couple of others today since cast is coming off. I have been frequenting quite a few. Some more shocking than others. This one is rather a moderate one, internet-wise, but not overly scholarly. By that I probably mean it in another way than do you.

My greatest problem with Christian Fundamentalism is the way it has decieved and befuddled man over the centuries. Just like any other mass-beliefs, great evils have been commited in its name. But somehow it has persisted. Why? Because of the duality inside the teaching, the benevolent preaching of the priests together with the threat of eternal and harsh punishment of the soul. The condemning nature of Jesus and God is laid bare in the bible at many many places and yet clergy tells us they are all good and holy, these words.

Even Truebeliever asks of me to put a single event aside since the whole picture is of a benign man.

Not so! I say.

Truebeliever asks me to view the larger picture of the bible instead of focusing on a few mean and harsh utterances by that man of the most holy. Does Truebeliever really mean that these texts was left in the bible by mistake? Or does Truebeliever mean that we must interpret the bible to ignore the "bad" parts? Just like we do with our Christian leaders? Just like we do with our priests? Or am I just sensitive and should accept that the world is tough and harsh an we better arm ourself and be prepared 'cause Jesus said so?

I say, the story of Jesus being fickle and judgemental and suddenly turning holy and good depending on his mood, tells us a very definitive story about what kind of person we should accept and model ourself into. And it is not a good person.

Therefore; while we read that Jesus was sometimes a choleric and egoistic man, tastelessly uncaring and selfish on occasions, and our priests tell us that he was of the utmost goodness, then we are being programmed in the most exquisite way, allowing our leaders to trample upon us with their professed belief in God and at the same time commiting the most heinous crimes.

Witness the White Man's Burden, where the western world colonized the rest of the world in search of new market ventures but under the thin veil of Benevolent Christianity, knitted by the goodly priests and the men of soulless commerce.

Witness the US campaign for Oil in the middle-east, led by a president confessing as a Born-Again Christian.

Why did so few leaders of the western world react to his attack? Because he claimed that he had the "right" to do it. God was with him. And many leaders of european parties are likewise "led by the right of god". This we have been taught by the bible; "If you are not with me, you are against me". And since GW Bush is a forefigure for Christians of the world, such is the power of that religion, taught by the bible.

How can the Catholic church continue for so long to let so many altarboys be cruelly molested by pedophilic clergymen? How come the christian belivers continue to believe when their highest representatives commit the most detructive crime against a human being?

Many Christians today do not really believe in a male God and a real Jesus with holy powers, yet they are lured into the church because the message is of goodness and togetherness. The teachings are benign, people are led to believe, and the opening of the heart to the soul of mankind is good. Many believe that there is a unifying spirit that is God. Therefore one must open ones mind, according to the preachings and teachings, to this unnameable spirit that can only be felt, never explained.

What you don't realize, when you open up like that is that one actually is closing off from other human beings. You are opening up towards your inside, not outside. And inside is just more of yourself.

You effectively let yourself become slightly more malleable the deeper you sink into religous belief. And the more you sink into it, the more you are shut off from other human beings.

The connection to cold capitalism is this;
it is the most effective marketing-tool in the whole history of mankind. It is this that the capitalist market is using as model for their business-strategy.

(Let me make one thing clear; Capitalism within an old-fashioned liberal and strictly regulated market is the best we can do. It is not ideal but far better than gung-ho wild-west early IMF- led gutting of a country like happened with Argentina. Utopian capitalism must start from equal positions between the combatting opponents. This cannot happen in the real world were one comapny is always before, larger or better equipped, therefore legislation).

Christianity is the poor man's religion, created to control the powerful from it's most humble beginnings. The only way for poor people to get back at ther cruel masters.

By touching first the poor, then the servants, then the wives of the rich and mighty and through them their children, until all were christian. Christianity seeped in and took power by forcing the mighty to develop a conscience towards the poor. This was their way of attaining a very expandable foothold on power.

And this is the way all big business works. It speaks about freedom, allowing you to fulfil your dream, allowing you to be seen, making your unimportant life actually mean something, but in reality it grips you by the balls and never lets go.

Just like when you buy a new car and feel that you have achieved something in life, certainly now when you have that new Porsche Cayenne you have reached a meaningful place in life... but then... suddenly it's too old, someone gets a better one than you... you need a faster, safer, cleaner, bigger car. This insecurity what is actually meant by these wise and intelligent businessmen who create all theses fantastic new clothes, watches, cars and hotels, TV-channels, Films... They are so wise and brilliant, why don't they decide once and for all what is best and let me be free to make my own mind up? No, you can't! Because the capitalist powers need you to be busy working for them so that you don't think too much on your own. And what BLISS when finally there is a company that just tells you exactly what you want, gives you everything you need, when there is no more need to search or think for yourself!!

Enter Wal-Mart, GM, IKEA, Cable-TV, Microsoft, Coca-Cola or Christianity, same tactics, same system of mind. Like the Borg (I watch with my kids, love Star Trek) they assimilate all in their way. Not because it is best but because it is the biggest and the angriest. As in business, quality looses over speed and price.

...the same attitude is portrayed by christianity, and stronger than any other religion it tells you of goodness, peace and love. Surely! And all the priests that preach the love of god. But then what does all this mean...


Some wisdoms from the bible:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesnít receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who donít believe in him. Jude 5

Indred 11-29-2005 06:50 PM

Re: Italian Fascism instigated by Socialist Marxists
 
Be seeing you Overlord. If not sooner, then probably later.


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