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stompk 05-09-2008 07:08 AM

Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

The combined moisture from the jet exhaust and the atmosphere will never be enough for the mixture to produce a cloud.
Appleman Chart - Student

Now I am going to debunk the scientists that claim the contrails forming into clouds and gray haze above your heads is normal, jet exhaust polluting our atmosphere.

And I'm going to do it by using a chart, the above website.

The chart is called the Appleman Chart. And it looks like this.


Background: Military planners have been interested in condensation trail (contrail) forecasts since World War II. Contrails can make any aircraft easy to locate by enemy forces, and no amount of modern stealth technology can hide an aircraft if it leaves a persistent contrail in its wake. In 1953, a scientist named H. Appleman published a chart that can be used to determine when a jet airplane would or would not produce a contrail. For many years, the US Air Force Global Weather Center used a similar chart to make contrail forecasts.
Now, the purpose of this thread is to show that PERSISTENT contrails forming into a cloud, is a myth.

Furthmore, I will show you the science. If you see a PERSISTENT contrail, then you can go to this website;
Atmospheric Soundings
and on the map, click on the city nearest you, and it will give you the
most recent sounding of the atmosphere.

atmosphere sounding. Satellite Meteorology. Methods for retrieval of atmospheric temperature and humidity profiles.
Now the chart will look like this
(current Denver, CO sounding)


384.0 7538 -33.5 -36.9 71 0.42 237 36 315.0 316.6 315.1
379.4 7620 -34.1 -37.8 69 0.39 235 35 315.3 316.7 315.4
362.8 7925 -36.5 -41.2 62 0.29 235 34 316.2 317.3 316.2
303.4 9144 -45.9 -54.7 36 0.08 235 40 319.5 319.8 319.5
300.0 9220 -46.5 -55.5 35 0.07 235 40 319.7 320.0 319.7
We're only interested in the first 5 columns.

1st column;
is the atmospheric pressure or hPa on the left of the Appleman Chart.

2nd column;
is the metric height.
Most commercial jets fly between 8 and 12 km (26,000 and 39,000 feet, or roughly 350 hPa to 200 hPa).[/ex]
30,000 ft = 9144 m. You can use this chart to do the conversion.

3rd column;
is temperature in c. It's roughly about the same as f at that temp.

If the atmosphere were warmer than the temperature indicated by the 100% line, a contrail could not form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were 100 percent
4th column;
is dewpoint. This is the point at which vapor will condense into water.

5th column;
Relative Humidity. Very important. According to NASA;

Both the temperature and humidity of the atmosphere help to determine whether a contrail can form. As the relative humidity in the atmosphere increases, the atmosphere is able to supply more moisture into the jet aircraft exhaust plume, and a contrail is more likely to form. The temperature of the atmosphere does not have to be as cold to form contrails at 60% relative humidity compared to 0% relative humidity.
Surprisingly, at cold temperatures ice clouds (including contrails) can form and persist at humidities lower than 100%. The red line (dash-double dot line) in the Appleman chart shows at what humidities contrails can persist (usually between 60% and 70% relative humidity). Thus, if the air is moist enough, and colder than (temperature profile is to the left of the red line), then the Appleman chart indicates that persistent contrails can form.
(bold added)

So, what it boils down to, is that on a clear day, it's very, very unlikely that a contrail would form, let alone persist.

And I've already shown that NASA said it is impossible for clouds to form from contrails.

Last but not least.


the USAF found that the forecasts using the Appleman method were correct about 60 to 80 percent of the time. Looking more closely at the data, they found that when no contrails were forecast, the forecast was correct 98 percent of the time! However, when contrails were forecast to occur, the forecast was correct only 25 to 35 percent of the time, and often failed to predict the occurrence of contrails.
Again, the Nasa link is
Appleman Chart - Student

And the satellite sounding site is;
Atmospheric Soundings


stompk 05-09-2008 11:28 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
How to find out if they are spraying above your head.

There are parameters for a contrail to form.

The temp must be colder than -38C.

The Humidity level must be above 55%

The warmer it is, the more humidity needed
to form a contrail.

I've made a chart using the Appleman Chart,
and the parameter set by NASA

I challenge anyone to find a sounding in the atmosphere,
between 8000-11,500 meters that fit the parameters to
for a contrail.
Atmospheric Soundings

below 55%, contrails will not form, according to NASA.
above -38C, contrails will not form.

stompk 05-09-2008 01:29 PM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
Since no one has replied, I picked a few cities in North America that represent various temperature and humidity levels, all from today,
@ 30,000 ft / 9144 m

and put them on the chart.


Pickle Lake, Ontario
286.6 9144 -51.8 -69.2 11
Cold enough, but humidity is way below 55%, no contrails will form under
these conditions.


Santa Domingo
321.7 9144 -31.1 -65.2 2
Not cold enough, only 2% humidity, no contrails.


Gray, Maine
304.3 9144 -43.2 -53.5 31
Barely cold enough, below 55% humidity, so, no contrails.


Tuscon, Arizona
315.7 9144 -33.0 -45.2 28
Temp too low, humidity < 55%, no contrails.


No contrails were observed for RHI < 55%.

None of the soundings show RHI > 72%, despite
the fact that the PIT rawinsonde must have passed
through contrail A on its way to the stratosphere. To
support a persistent contrail, the maximum PIT RHI from
the sonde would need to be increased by 35% or more.

Increasing 72% by 35% would be 107%, or saturation, to support persistent

This is supported by this;


The red line (dash-double dot line) in the Appleman chart shows at what humidities contrails can persist (usually between 60% and 70% relative humidity)
Appleman Chart - Student

NASA is saying that can't really form below 60%
and the other NASA pdf says no contrails were formed
below 55%

Furthermore, I have already shown where they come right and say


The combined moisture from the jet exhaust and the atmosphere will never be enough for the mixture to produce a cloud.
Please, if I have made a mistake in my calculations and charts, could you show me the data that supports your claim otherwise.

All I want is the truth. Show me the numbers to support persistent contrail formation.


KennyWally 05-11-2008 04:31 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
Do you think, that this would actually be broadcast on the mass media teevee?

you're kidding, right?

For me, I didn't need no stinking math to tell me what I could see.

But, nice job, FWIW.

They'll only recognize fellow whores, who spin an agenda, truth tellers are not welcome.

Ain't it fun, being a lone voice in the wilderness....

TrutherD 11-11-2009 08:31 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
Well done, stompk. You're the reason I registered here. I am hounding my government about chemtrails and wasn't entirely sure about the science of contrail formation. This is an excellent starting point. Thank you. Keep it up. Distribute "Don't talk about the weather" documentary DVDs everywhere you go. :)

albie 11-12-2009 08:28 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
Why not post this on a debunker forum like the james randi forum? Then you'll not be preaching to the converted. Oh, but then you'll get opposition! Can't have that. That spoils the fun of being a Fox Mulderoid.

TrutherD 11-12-2009 04:41 PM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
You're a real peach, albie.

albie 11-13-2009 04:11 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
You will never prove that contrails carry chemicals by pointing at them and screaming, or in any other way. It's one of those subjects designed to make you look a paranoid nut, like Holocaust denial, or reptilians. Some subjects will just make you look stupid. Way to go. Stick to something like the American foreign policy or don't bother.

TrutherD 11-13-2009 07:46 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
albie, Maybe you're confused about the science laid out in stompk's excellent post. It is obvious, based on the chart from NASA that contrails, let alone persistent contrails, cannot form at above -38C or below 55% relative humidity. If the sky is clear, it is impossible for a contrail to form, let alone persist. If you see a trail in the middle of summer at 5000 feet, just above your head it can only be logically assumed that it is not water vapor. I am sure you are capable of searching YouTube for "chemtrails clear sky" or "chemtrails summer". I am not sure, however, that you understand how to read the Appleman Chart still in use by NASA and the USAF, which predicts no contrails to 98% accuracy. Arguing over and demanding independent chemical analysis is moot when you can use basic known science to come to a clear conclusion. It is now painfully obvious there is a spraying infrastructure in place. They can put whatever they want in it and don't have to answer any questions. Does that not concern you?

Why do our kids need to be taught contrail education here or be subliminally programmed here?

Please wake up and spread this information. Help stop the NWO in honour of our forefathers and everyone else who has suffered from and fought their tyranny. We have a very good chance. Never before has the truth been so widespread and so accessible.

albie 11-14-2009 07:52 AM

Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)
Why not post this info on a proper debunking site then?

JREF Forum

And see how long it lasts to proper scrutiny.

Like here.

Chemtrail spraying screaching to a halt! Obama mandate?, page 2

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