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Old 11-15-2009, 08:22 AM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
You can say that all you want, free country and all. However, having been one of those M9 ACE drivers that had to expose and refill some of the mass graves, I will take a different position.
Free country? Did I mention several of my viewpoints are punishable by law in my country? Did I mention one of my best friends (a kind and polite father of four and one of the most well-read individuals I know) was sent to prison for his efforts in trying to educate the "radical right" by selling controversial books and organising lectures with controversial speakers? Maybe then you'll understand why I refrain from speaking openly about my views anywhere besides in an intimate circle or anonymously on the internet...

In war people die. Can you be certain the people in those graves were just innocent bystanders? Can you be sure they were victims of ethnic cleansing? Things aren't always as they seem.

When American soldiers entered Dachau and stumbled on piles with thousands of bodies in 1945 they were certain the Germans had murdered them all and went on a killing spree brutally executing hundreds of Waffen-SS personal both from the camp and a nearby garrison totally in breach of the Geneva Convention, however it would soon become clear that the emaciated bodies found at Dachau were victims of a typhus pandemic that went out of control as German infrastructure was collapsing due to continuous allied carpet bombing. I highly encourage you watch the film The Relief of Belsen that deals with a similar situation in the Bergen-Belsen camp (experienced by British troops).

I can't comment on what you saw specificly, but when you're constantly told how evil the enemy is supposed to be it's quite easy to assume ethnic cleansing when it is uncalled for.

If the Serbs did indeed kill large numbers of unarmed civilians, maybe this was an act of revenge for similar crimes commited by the enemy. This sort of retaliation actions is common and one must understand the cause of a massacre before judging its nature.

Anyway, war is always cruel and brutal and during war there is rarely a "good side".

Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
And the Serbs were more brutal and determined then their enemies.
Obviously. Serbs are a very proud people and the people fighting on the Serbian side were 100% convinced they were fighting a just cause, just like most of your comrades probably were.

Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
One of the games the Serbs like to play was to bet how many soldiers it would take to rape a girl to death. No strangulation... no beating... they would simply fuck them to death.
First of all, American GIs also group raped women both in Europe and Asia. And that's just the American GIs. The Sovjet Red Army portrayed a sort of brutality beyond the comprehension of civilised humans, yet both American GIs and these monsters were supposed to be the "good guys" because they were fighting Hitler...

Second, an essential part of black propaganda is the dehumanisation of the enemy by means of attrocity stories. Back during WW1, the German soldiers were falsely accused of cutting off babies' hands and sticking babies up their bayonets. During the Gulf War, Iraqi soldiers were falsely accused of throwing babies out of their incubators. Both accusations are generally accepted as false today, however they were used to gain support of the war effort against respectively Germany and Iraq at the time.

So we need to first ask ourselves if these stories about group rapes by Serbian soldiers are true. If they are true, we must ask ourselves if this sort of crime was perpetrated by the Serbs alone or whether the "other side" was equally guilty of such crimes. Further, we must also ask ourselves why these soldiers were doing this. Often, group rape is a way of dehumanising the enemy as revenge for a (perceived) harm by the enemy towards their own people.

Anyway, you can't judge the conflict just by what you've seen and heard alone. In times of war, things are rarely as obvious as they seem and right and wrong are replaced by a huge shade of gray.

Last edited by Out of the Box : 11-15-2009 at 08:34 AM.
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