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Old 11-15-2009, 05:41 PM
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EireEngineer EireEngineer is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Grapevine, Texas
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Wink Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Free country? Did I mention several of my viewpoints are punishable by law in my country? Did I mention one of my best friends (a kind and polite father of four and one of the most well-read individuals I know) was sent to prison for his efforts in trying to educate the "radical right" by selling controversial books and organising lectures with controversial speakers? Maybe then you'll understand why I refrain from speaking openly about my views anywhere besides in an intimate circle or anonymously on the internet...
Must be talking about your Holocaust denying?
Are there walls around Flanders patrolled by Einsatzgruppen keeping you in? Come on over. Hell, if its good enough for 21 million Mexicans, it cant be all bad here lol.
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
In war people die. Can you be certain the people in those graves were just innocent bystanders? Can you be sure they were victims of ethnic cleansing? Things aren't always as they seem.
Surly you cant be assuming that all of those un-uniformed women and children we found were lawful combatants or partisans? Thats laughable.
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
When American soldiers entered Dachau and stumbled on piles with thousands of bodies in 1945 they were certain the Germans had murdered them all and went on a killing spree brutally executing hundreds of Waffen-SS personal both from the camp and a nearby garrison totally in breach of the Geneva Convention, however it would soon become clear that the emaciated bodies found at Dachau were victims of a typhus pandemic that went out of control as German infrastructure was collapsing due to continuous allied carpet bombing. I highly encourage you watch the film The Relief of Belsen that deals with a similar situation in the Bergen-Belsen camp (experienced by British troops).
Ah yes, the holocaust denier syndrom. yawn
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
I can't comment on what you saw specificly, but when you're constantly told how evil the enemy is supposed to be it's quite easy to assume ethnic cleansing when it is uncalled for.

If the Serbs did indeed kill large numbers of unarmed civilians, maybe this was an act of revenge for similar crimes commited by the enemy. This sort of retaliation actions is common and one must understand the cause of a massacre before judging its nature.
Actually, most of us were pretty unaware of what exactly was going on there, besides the shelling in Sarajevo. There was no active propagandizing by our commanders as to the nature of the forces there. As far as we were concerned we were there to keep all three sides from dukeing it out, and we took just as many weapons caches away from Bosnians and Croats as we took from Serbs. The Serbs do hold the record for placement of landmines in a given area though. I find that claims like this that our commanders were 'hyping' us up on the evilness of the enemy com from two places:Hollywood, and people that have never served in combat.

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Anyway, war is always cruel and brutal and during war there is rarely a "good side".



Obviously. Serbs are a very proud people and the people fighting on the Serbian side were 100% convinced they were fighting a just cause, just like most of your comrades probably were.



First of all, American GIs also group raped women both in Europe and Asia. And that's just the American GIs. The Sovjet Red Army portrayed a sort of brutality beyond the comprehension of civilised humans, yet both American GIs and these monsters were supposed to be the "good guys" because they were fighting Hitler...
The difference being that in many cases the US soldiers were brought up on charges under the UCMJ, and the abuses of US soldiers are not done with the express consent of the higher command, whereas the Serbian top brass ordered their troops to rape, pilliage, and destroy as much of the Bosnian countryside as they could. Yes, bad things happen on both sides of a war, and this is largely unavoidable. However, when a people actively embrace the horrible aspects of war, and therefore encourage their soldiers to participate in reprehensible acts, that is the most unconscionable crime a society can do.

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Second, an essential part of black propaganda is the dehumanisation of the enemy by means of attrocity stories. Back during WW1, the German soldiers were falsely accused of cutting off babies' hands and sticking babies up their bayonets. During the Gulf War, Iraqi soldiers were falsely accused of throwing babies out of their incubators. Both accusations are generally accepted as false today, however they were used to gain support of the war effort against respectively Germany and Iraq at the time.
Therefore what? Yes, propaganda certainly has occured in war since the invention of war. Put to assume that this means that every single time you hear an attrocity story, it is mear propeganda? That is ridiculous. How do you know the stories about American soldiers are true then, and not just merely propaganda?
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
So we need to first ask ourselves if these stories about group rapes by Serbian soldiers are true. If they are true, we must ask ourselves if this sort of crime was perpetrated by the Serbs alone or whether the "other side" was equally guilty of such crimes. Further, we must also ask ourselves why these soldiers were doing this. Often, group rape is a way of dehumanising the enemy as revenge for a (perceived) harm by the enemy towards their own people.
Are you seriously trying to justify it by this "percieved harm" argument? Ridiculous!
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Anyway, you can't judge the conflict just by what you've seen and heard alone. In times of war, things are rarely as obvious as they seem and right and wrong are replaced by a huge shade of gray.
No one said I was, but given the preponderance of evidence, it seems to me that the Serbs and the Bosnians did far worse things to each other (certainly with the Croats helping out) then we ever did to to them. I am still not sure why you have such a problem with our involvement though?
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