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  #21  
Old 09-16-2005, 09:17 PM
nomad nomad is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"


TrueBeliever here's one insight for you

supporting a possible trinity in the one G-d the

Father


B + A

or

beth + aleph

or

2 + 1 = Trinity ?

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  #22  
Old 09-16-2005, 09:32 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
The hero myth is a popular one...a man rises up against opposition and refuses temptation to go on to become a hero or King like figure to the people. Does that mean William Wallace never lived? Was George Washington a myth?
I never said Jesus never lived.. in fact, I believe quite devoutly that Jesus did in fact live and that many (although perhaps not all) of the myths ascribed to Him in the NT have some basis in fact. I do after all regard myself as a follower of the Christian faith..

I'm just saying that Christianity bears many similarities to Egyptian Sun Worship, which are all the more striking when you consider that the Bible teaches us (in so many words) that Jesus went to Egypt to recieve His final ecclesiastical teachings and ordination (viz the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which you'll find documented in the Epistle to the Hebrews, chapters 5-7).
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  #23  
Old 09-16-2005, 09:34 PM
nomad nomad is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote

Besides, the numbers game (in Hebrew) only goes so far, doesn't it?

No its infinite. Each letter is itself

formed by other letters and you can find endless

mathematical logic and allegorical wisdom

in it.

I mean, citing your example above, the *real* word for "master" is Hebrew is actually "Baal", isn't it? (beth-ayin-lamed).. According to your algorithm above, that would translate as "house-eye-(whatever lamed stands for)" .. does that really work?

lamed is the tallest letter and is positioned in the center of the Hebrew alphabet ... it can
mean "to learn" or "to teach"

(notice alpha-bet where did that come from ?)
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  #24  
Old 09-16-2005, 10:04 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Arjuna wrote:
psholtz said, "Christianity and Judaism really have nothing much to do w/ each other."

Excellent posts. That is the best explanation I have ever read.

Your analysis confirms my long-standing belief that the biggest mistake Christianity ever made was holding onto the Old Testament. For Christians to believe that the New Testament is the Word of God is understandable, because those writings tell the story of the origins of their religion. For them to believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God is absurd. The Old Testament tells the story of the origins of an entirely different religion, Judaism. The Old Testament contains many examples of how "God's chosen people" oppose, dislike, and possibly hate the rest of humanity. "The rest of humanity" is referred to as "gentiles" in the OT. Of course, all Christians are gentiles.

The fact is that today many Christians believe that the Jews are God's chosen people, and many Christians consider themselves Zionists.

It would be interesting to know why the compilers of the Bible chose to include the OT. Was it a foolish error on their part, or were the Jews involved in this decision in order to make it possible for them to perpetually confuse and undermine the new religion.
This is an excellent question/concern, and it's something that I've often wondered about the more I learned about religion (and esp about Christianity and Judaism). For instance, I've long thought that Plato's cycle of philosophical Tetralogies would make a much better *introduction* to the NT than the OT does (to my mind, it's not even clear that the *God* of the OT is even the same *God* who makes his appearance in the NT... and based on the above discussion, he's probably not! LOL)

Voltaire once quipped that the Catholic church should have made Plato a saint, since he (Plato) invented Christianity 300 years before Christ did(!), and .. to be honest, I pretty much (completely) share Voltaire's conviction here. Whether or not Jesus was trained (religiously/philosophically) in Egypt is something we can speculate on (based on the readings from Hebrews 5-7), but we *know* for a (biographical) fact that Egypt is where Plato was trained in philosophy and where Plato was first initiated into the (ancient) Mysteries. Moreover, since Palestine had become deeply, deeply Hellenized (and of course, later Romanized) by the time of Christ, it's not surprisingly that we should see the imprint of Platonic thinking and philosophy coming through in the teachings of Christ.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the decisions of the early Church fathers were probably the wisest option they had open. In the first place, even though (chronologically) Plato came before Christ, the teachings of one do not really add anything to the teachings of the other. If you had Plato as the "OT" and kept Christ as the NT, then... well... Christ isn't really going to say anything in the NT that Plato hadn't already said (several dozen times) in his own writings.. and vice versa. Sooo you're not really adding any information, and so it would be kinda pointless..

Secondly, I believe that to be a truly enduring system of faith, a religion must embody the following three things:

* Solid, responsible moral code by which to live
* Representation of God as a Trinity
* The (all important) Commandment to be "Born Again" (<- using Christianity terminology)

The religion of the ancient Hindus had all three, and it persisted for many thousands of years.. the Mystery (Sun) religion of the Egyptians had all three, and it persisted for at least 3 millenia. Christianity has all three, and it's moving on into its third millenium now..

The Greeks already had the concept of a Trinity (Zeus was capable of manifesting in three aspects, viz Poseidon, Hades and Ammon), and Plato brought to the Greeks the all important doctrine of being "born again" (much like Christ brought it to the Jews). In Plato's philosophy, he describes being "born again" as "raising the Soul out of the Tomb of the Body".. Plato describes the Soul as being "asleep" inside the Body, which encases it as a Tomb, and that it's the responsibility of each human to "awaken" that Soul and to "resurrect" it and to bring it to life from w/in the Tomb.. This, btw, is why there are *soo* many people always being brought back to life from inside tombs in the NT (Lazarus, Jesus, etc).. Like I said, Christianity is a very Hellenistic/Platonic philosophy.

Also note all the times in the NT that Christ says something to the effect of "there will come the day when both the living and the dead will hear the Word of God!" When Christ uses the word "dead" in this context, He doesn't mean "dead" the way you and I traditionally think. He means, "alive, but spiritually dead".. He means, the person appears to be alive and breathing and what not, but the Soul inside is still asleep, and has not yet been brought back to life from inside the Tomb.. In post-1999 Warceski Brothers America, we might translate this commandment of Christ more accurately as "there will come a day when both those who are still plugged into the Matrix and are asleep, as well as those who have unplugged themselves from the Matrix by choosing the blue pill, will hear the Word of God!"

Christ's commandment to "let the dead bury their dead" bears much the same interpretation..

The Greeks, however, lacked a solid moral code by which to live.. it's my understanding that they were quite libertine ( :-P ), hence the (relatively) quick demise of their system of religion and philosophy (beautiful as it was). This is why, imho, it was wise for the NT writers to choose to append the NT onto the OT.. The OT does, after all, provide a very solid moral code (Ten Commandments and all), as well as very graphic depictions of what happens to people should they decide to break this moral code. So while Christianity (re-)introduces the concepts of (a) God as a Trinity; and (b) the importance of being Born Again, Christianity still must piggy-back off the OT so as to provide its moral "backbone" (so to speak).
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  #25  
Old 09-16-2005, 10:06 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
nomad wrote:
Quote

Besides, the numbers game (in Hebrew) only goes so far, doesn't it?

No its infinite. Each letter is itself

formed by other letters and you can find endless

mathematical logic and allegorical wisdom

in it.

I mean, citing your example above, the *real* word for "master" is Hebrew is actually "Baal", isn't it? (beth-ayin-lamed).. According to your algorithm above, that would translate as "house-eye-(whatever lamed stands for)" .. does that really work?

lamed is the tallest letter and is positioned in the center of the Hebrew alphabet ... it can
mean "to learn" or "to teach"

(notice alpha-bet where did that come from ?)
OK, so "Baal" means "house-eye-teach"...

OK... but, "house-eye-teach" still doesn't imply "Master" to me.. ;-)
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  #26  
Old 09-16-2005, 11:30 PM
nomad nomad is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

remember you can replace the

vowels and generate derivative meanings

take a hebrew dictionary baal has many

meanings ... mine says owner, possessor

l y b

learn + eye + house

You will own or possess something by

learning to observe the "house"

is one possible permutation

You can also replace the letters with its

numerical value and get meaning out of it

here's an example

m d a = adam, mankind


m d 1

md = the hebrew word for blood

man is of 1 blood or we are all brothers

or we all have the same great great great ...

grandparents

the possibilities are endless
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  #27  
Old 09-16-2005, 11:46 PM
anisia anisia is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Check out www.bennyhinn.org

Last edited by anisia : 10-12-2010 at 04:52 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-17-2005, 01:11 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
TrueBeliever here's one insight for you

supporting a possible trinity in the one G-d the

Father


B + A

or

beth + aleph

or

2 + 1 = Trinity ?
I'm afraid i'm not a full bottle on such aspects of the subject.

I know many have a problem on the aspect of the holy trinity. I have none. God can be God and incarnate in Christ at the same time. The point is God is in You right now. The Kingdom of God is within you. Becoming conscious of this fact is the completion of your life and the final goal of any human being...and then get on with your life. We all have a specific destiny and a particular archetypal structure that endows us with certain gifts. Christ was a carpenter and ultimately a perfect vessal for God to walk about the Earth in. That was what He was good at and born to do.

All I know from direct experience, is that Christ is the only Westerner in history to calmly proclaim himself God and still keep his sanity. Probably because, as he said, it is what I have been born to Be from the beginning.

I could think of a million different stories that would enable one to control people and in total, the 4 Gospels just ar'nt something you make up to twist people around your finger. They are quite specific. In fact I only read them recently after relying on 2nd hand interpretations for a long time.

What a fraud! 2000 years on...converts in the hundreds of millions, a message of compassion and truth...and people have been at it since he opened his mouth on the subject. Indeed, the fraud of all time.

Lets pick on Buddah for a change? He was fat and had bad breath...i hear he also drank straight from the milk carton...
:-P
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  #29  
Old 09-17-2005, 08:40 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

To say that Christ has nothing to do with the Old Testament is to make Christ an aberration that simply appeared by itself. Christ Himself said that He was the completion of Scriptures (Old Testament at his time).
The problem is that people just don't read the Bible to understand the logic and the perfect struture it has. 66 books by 40 men in 4000 years and it is a whole that makes perfect sense.
God is not an absent god that let things happen. he is perfect control of everything, or He wouldn't be God at all, just a powerful being. That's why He has put together a plan for the redemption of mankind that included His message to the Jews, the Law, as a guide that would teach obedience and show that we could never obtain it by our efforts. The sacrifices of blood in Judaism were a model for the need of the sacrifice of Jesus' blood.
Jesus came to fulfill this plan.
To tell that Jesus and His teachings come from Zoroastrism or any other religion is absurd. There may be similarities in the teachings, because Satan copies everything and talks about peace and love, while at the same time he kills people.
To say Jesus went to Egypt to learn is ridiculous. Why would God go to Egypt to learn anything ? Much less to learn demonic magic ? Non-sense. This is to say that Jesus was a magician, a slave of demons, and not God Himself. It is in total contradiction of His teachings.

I prefer people who say that Jesus was a fraud than this nonsense of saying that they believe in this aberration , this contradiction, this magician they invented and call Jesus.

My friend Moulder, you are anything BUT a Christian.
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  #30  
Old 09-17-2005, 09:06 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Yeh, i wondered why i even posted it as soon as i posted it.

He's a fraud and he never existed.

But i'm happy believing in fairy tales, so leave me to it. :-D

Why is it NO other "religion" gets put through the griller like Christianity?
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