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  #41  
Old 09-18-2005, 06:00 PM
Marsali Marsali is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"


Hebrews 7:16 says (at least in my bible)...."who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of indestructible life."

Still can't see how this is proof that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek. Can you explain your position here?

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  #42  
Old 09-18-2005, 06:08 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Marsali wrote:
Hebrews 7:16 says (at least in my bible)...."who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of indestructible life."

Still can't see how this is proof that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek. Can you explain your position here?
Try reading the sentence in front of it.. that might help.. :-P

My Bible reads: "one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry, but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life."

As for explaining my position, my position is merely to share w/ you what my convictions concerning the Bible are. I have no desire nor intent to "convert" you to my beliefs or to try to convince you of the truth of what I say.. You're a free human being, and you have the right to believe whatever you choose to believe. God gave you the gift of reason for a ... reason (no pun intended!)
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  #43  
Old 09-18-2005, 07:20 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

psholtz,

You are taking a story that makes absolute sense in the way that 99% of people understand and trying to make a case with a bad interpretation of ONE verse. Of course Jesus was made a priest in the LIKE of Melchizedech, like he was a KING in the LIKE of David.

God is not an evil being who would give His Word to people in a way that only 1% would understand. Even children can understand the way of salvation, and that's the way God wanted it to be. Salvation is not an intellectual matter, it is one of faith and the heart. People reject Christ because of pride, not because they don't understand Him.

Your reasoning is gnostic. Gnosticism preaches that only people who have special knowledge can be saved, or develop spiritually, etc. It is the same trick Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults use to say they are the only churches who understand the Bible. Get a verse out of context, forget all the story that the Bible tells and hammer that verse until exhaustion.

If Jesus had to go to Egypt, or India, to learn magic, this would be in contradction with everything else He said. Egypt was the center of demonic magic and demonic magic was the main enemy of Jesus. It makes absolute no sense at all.

When Jesus was 12 He was already at the Temple teaching God's Word to the elders...He was God, He didn't need to learn anything, much less from a bunch of Egyptian Satanists.
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  #44  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:46 AM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

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Saturnino wrote:
God is not an evil being who would give His Word to people in a way that only 1% would understand. Even children can understand the way of salvation, and that's the way God wanted it to be. Salvation is not an intellectual matter, it is one of faith and the heart. People reject Christ because of pride, not because they don't understand Him.

Your reasoning is gnostic. Gnosticism preaches that only people who have special knowledge can be saved, or develop spiritually, etc. It is the same trick Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults use to say they are the only churches who understand the Bible. Get a verse out of context, forget all the story that the Bible tells and hammer that verse until exhaustion.
Apparently you never got the memo that Jesus sent out in Matthew 13:10-17. Go back and read those verses, over and over and over and over again, until the Truth of them finally sinks in.

Quote:
If Jesus had to go to Egypt, or India, to learn magic, this would be in contradction with everything else He said. Egypt was the center of demonic magic and demonic magic was the main enemy of Jesus. It makes absolute no sense at all.
This is interesting speculation, but I'd like to see what your source for it. Given my reading of the Book of Kings (in the OT), Israel (and Judah) were more involved w/ "demonic magic" than any other group or culture in world history. Even King Solomon was a noted "expert" in summoning "magical demons" to do his bidding, and this is on the authority of the canonical Bible alone (to say nothing of the Apocrypha).

Quote:
When Jesus was 12 He was already at the Temple teaching God's Word to the elders...He was God, He didn't need to learn anything, much less from a bunch of Egyptian Satanists.
If you can explain to me what the difference between the Son of Man, and the Son of God is, perhaps I'd be inclined to believe a few of the things you're spouting. Until then, I'm really not interested in what you're selling..
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  #45  
Old 09-19-2005, 09:27 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

psholtz,

You condemn yourself by your very words. Mathew 13: 10 talks about Jesus's parables. The reason is that for those who are elected by the Father, those who received Jesus, they would be understood. For those who had their hearts calloused, who have closed their eyes, they would be impossible to understand. The key to understand this passage is that if you close your hearts for what Jesus says, you will never understand his words. Exactly what you are doing. This passage has absolutely NOTHING to do with gnosticism or secret knowledge. It is all about truth being understood by those withh an open heart, those who love Jesus.

Keep reading, my friend, and see that in Mat 13:18 Jesus says that the evil one takes the truth away from those who didnt understand the gospel (and puts fake Sumerian texts, Jordan Maxwell stuff , etc., in its place).

Never pretend to understand the Bible by reading just one verse. The whole is important.

About Israel being involved in magic, of ocurse they were. But the Bible is honest: it tells us like it was. Israel was involved in magic but always was rebuked and chastised by God when they did it ! It is there as an example of what we SHOULDN'T do ! It is not because sinful Israel was doing something wrong that Jesus would do it too ! Do you see the logic ? Man, you have to read the whole story.

Son of Man refers to the human side of Jesus, Son of God to his deity. It is like refering to Bill gates sometimes as "the richest man non earth" and sometimes as "the revolutionary in computing". Same guy. Jesus was fully man and fully God at the same time.
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  #46  
Old 09-19-2005, 09:54 AM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
This passage has absolutely NOTHING to do with gnosticism or secret knowledge. It is all about truth being understood by those withh an open heart, those who love Jesus.
If that's what you need to believe to make it through the day, then I suppose that's where your at. Like I said before, it's your right to believe whatever you choose wrt religion.. To me, though, your interpretation seems completely inconsistent the whole of Biblical teachings..
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  #47  
Old 09-19-2005, 10:02 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

OK, psholtz,

Let's do this: I respect your decision to believe in gnosticism.
But don't say I believe in what I believe because I am an idiot that needs crutches to go thru the day.

I was an existencialist before converting to Christ, and there is nothing more "tough" philosophically than that, as you should know.
I accepted Christ not because I needed something to take me thru the day, but because I studied it for many years and compared it with many other religions and philosophies. And of course, because of God's opening my eyes thru faith.
In fact, orthodox Christianity, with the full realization that it brings that I am a sinner and a bastard, totally depended on God, makes it much HARDER to face my condition than the false self assurance that I was born perfect provided by gnosticism or new age. Thinking that I am God would be a much better crutch.
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  #48  
Old 09-23-2005, 01:58 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Just to bring back this thread to the "Judaism is really just Zoroastrianism is disguise" meme, it's interesting to note that Dr. Makow has noticed precisely the same thing:

Quote:
The Jewish Pharisees rejected Christ. They practised a naturalistic religion that turned Christ's message on its head. Man is God, rules the universe, and defines reality. We can indulge our desires. Dating back to Zoroastrianism, the Jewish Cabala reverses the roles of God and Lucifer and embraces occult symbols, rituals and blood sacrifices.

http://www.savethemales.ca/211002.html
It's also interesting to note that the so-called "Jews of India", the Parsis, are practicing Zoroastrians.. all the more interesting when you note how similar to word "Parsi" is to "Pharisee"..

http://www.pemcom.demon.co.uk/queen/parsi.html
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  #49  
Old 09-23-2005, 11:34 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

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I was an existencialist before converting to Christ, and there is nothing more "tough" philosophically than that, as you should know.
I accepted Christ not because I needed something to take me thru the day, but because I studied it for many years and compared it with many other religions and philosophies. And of course, because of God's opening my eyes thru faith.
In fact, orthodox Christianity, with the full realization that it brings that I am a sinner and a bastard, totally depended on God, makes it much HARDER to face my condition than the false self assurance that I was born perfect provided by gnosticism or new age. Thinking that I am God would be a much better crutch.
You know, with just a little seeking...this central point is what makes Christianity "real".
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