Go Back   Club Conspiracy Forums > General Conspiracy Discussion > Alternate History
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-13-2005, 09:37 AM
rushdoony rushdoony is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 556
Default Why Islam Will Go Down When Babylon Falls


Consider: By accepting Jesus as being born of a virgin and being a prophet of Allah--but rejecting him as the Son of God--the Koran, and hence Islam, commits assault and battery on an important point of logic:

a) Who but God could create a child in the womb of Mary?!

b) Who would that child be if not the offspring--in this case, the Son--of its creator?? In the Koran, Allah denies emphatically several times that he has a son. (The explanation is given that Allah created the child Jesus like he created Adam. This makes no sense because there is no claim that Adam was born of woman as the Koran says Jesus was. As with apples and oranges, the comparisons here are fundamentally dissimilar and any attempt to make them the same is not only illogical, but downright ingenious, and hence deceptive and from Satan rather than God. This is sharp-pointed evidence that the god said to have been responsible for this comparison (Allah) is himself false and dishonest and could find no better way to get out of the self-inflicted conundrum of accepting Jesus as a Prophet of Allah born of a virgin. Islam has a real problem here.)

c) Moreover, this pivotal teaching that Jesus was a prophet of Allah but emphatically not his son, adds up to this: It makes a prophet of God a liar! Why? This Jesus who is virgin born in the Koran is the same Jesus who is virgin born in the Bible. Yet, according to the Koran, the claims by Jesus in the Bible that he is indeed the son of God are lies. How then can this same virgin born Jesus be a prophet of Allah (God), and not be his son as Jesus repeatedly said he was in the Bible...without being a liar? Does Allah have liars for prophets?

If so, then why trust Muhammad or any other prophets in the Koran??

Or is this just saying that it is the Bible that is lying and not Jesus or Allah?

If that is the argument, then choosing to follow the Koran over the Bible is not a rational choice. Look: The entire credibility of the Koran and Islam rests on all-out commitment to believing in Muhammad--an illiterate man who had fits and revelations from Satan and believed that he was demon possessed. He had 11 wives (one 9 years old) and claimed to have been married to Mary the mother of Jesus and Moses’ sister Miriam and Pharoah’s wife on his flight into the seven heavens. Muhammad was a superstitous man who recommended drinking camel urine for good health, and putting the right shoe on first and taking the left shoe off first. He also advocated dipping a housefly that might have gotten into one’s drink because one wing was diseased and the other held the cure (p.109). This is the man who went into the desert and came out with the Koran given to him by the archangel Gabriel.

How credible is such a man with when he is put alongside six hundred years of support for the New Testament claims of Jesus’ Sonship from Jesus Himself, His Apostles, hundreds of contemporary witnesses and thousands of copiers of that sacred text before Muhammad ever brought out his alleged message from on high that was tailored to confuse and destroy Christianity?

Further, such belief and commitment ignores the obvious, namely, a substantial part of the Bible was just lifted, edited and re-phrased, and put in the Koran. For example, Muhammad or somebody just changed Abraham’s son of promise from being Isaac to Ishmael, and then asserted that the parts of the New Testament Gospel that wouldn’t fit with that change had been corrupted and the Koran was telling it like it is. Confusing, yes; but not very persuasive when you think about it.

The Bible makes the point that Satan, not God, is the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). Draw your own conclusions..


d) The whole relegation of females to the level of chattel without souls on earth, and to Playboy Bunnies in Allah’s version of paradise, is a real eye-opener as to the Koran’s--and hence, Islam’s--view of God. This view is in sharp contrast to the Bible view wherein there "is no male nor female" distinction in God’s eternal plan, a plan where both genders are counted as His Children and made "joint heirs" with Jesus (Gal. 3:28,29. The Koran teaches that females are possessions and that their primary assignment in marriage and in Allah’s paradise is to service men sexually, not only speaks volumes about the g’d of this tome but reveals a very suspicious kinship with the view of females found in that other antithesis of the Bible, i.e., the Talmud (HERE, p.6).


e) Always in the Koran, Allah--who does not even ascribe souls to females--is also a bellicose God clamoring for holy war (Jihad) against all who oppose him. This, of course, is again in the sharpest contrast to the Biblical Jesus, the Prince of Peace, Who came to reveal the heart of His Father in a New Covenant with the whole world. (The Christian Crusades were, to be sure, an example of Christian Jihad. But again, that was a failed church-led operation which defied the Biblical way of conquest through love and Truth. Besides: No such unBiblical Christian Jihad occurred for half a millennia after the Koranic Jihad unleashed a bloodbath of conquest in its century-long debut. In short, the chief fact here is this: The Christian Crusades Jihad argument that Moslems employ to take the edge off of warlike proclivities ordained by Muhammad speaking for Allah in the Koran is a false argument. It is false because it uses an example (The Crusades) that is diametrically contrary to the Biblical teaching of conquest through love and truth and not by war. The Popes who fostered the Crusades were men with their own agenda, not the Bible’s. The Moslem leaders who fostered their century’s of Jihad were true to their holy book. Which holy book is really "holy"; and which God is really "holy"?)


f) Finally, Allah is to be feared and worshipped obediently, frequently, and ritually with little or no personal interaction from his dutiful subjects given or required. In sharp contrast to Allah, the Biblical Father God invites those who love and worship Him to call Him "Daddy" (Abba) and be joint heirs with His only begotten Son for eternity in a sin-free environment where they will build their own houses and raise their own food (Is. 65:21), live in immortal flesh and blood bodies (Is. 66:23), have children (Is. 11:6,8; 65:23;66:21), visit their town house mansions in the New Jerusalem lovingly built by their half-brother Jesus (John 14:2,3), partake of the wonders there and worship Father and Son Who choose to dwell with them (Rev. 21:3;22:1; etc.).


When these plain Bible Truths snuff out the plethora of man-made doctrinal distortions in the Churches of Christendom during the coming Fall of Babylon, there won’t be much hesitation on the part of tens of millions of truth-loving Moslems in seeing which religion is from a God they want to follow and serve and worship eternally.
More:http://www.fixedearth.com/Christianity%20&%20Islam.htm
( Ahmad, please don't get angry at me about posting this. I do believe I can learn much
from your other posts - they're really very good).

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-13-2005, 09:50 AM
DarkChilde3D DarkChilde3D is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 217
Default Re: Why Islam Will Go Down When Babylon Falls

I did not read your post yet . . . I will do so after posting this.

I'm Catholic, by the way, so don't think I'm tooting my own horn here.

I don't think Islam will 'go down,' as you put it, in a general sense.

I think that the section of it that has the corruption will eventually be 'beaten' and I hope it happens soon. I just hope that whatever replaces the corrupt section of Islam is not replaced by something worse.

I will now read your post and give feedback in my next post.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[size=large]Making Dreams And Nightmares a Virtual Reality.[/size]
Professor Otto von Schnitzelpusskrankengescheitmeyer
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-13-2005, 10:00 AM
DarkChilde3D DarkChilde3D is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 217
Default Re: Why Islam Will Go Down When Babylon Falls

Although there are good points you make in your post, I feel that it is a bit one-sided.

I believe that the religions of the world are different for a reason. It is a test of faith. The fact that we all worship the same God is enough.

Through the diversified beliefs that we are born to, and the fact that it is FAITH and not PROOF that religion is based upon makes neither wrong, nor right.

I believe that Jesus is a saviour. Ahmad does not believe that. I also don't believe that neither Ahmad nor myself will go to hell for either belief, no matter what he says.

It is also how we treat our fellow man that dictates where we go. I'm a bit more open minded than Ahmad, because I don't tell him he's going to hell for what he believes in. I accept his beliefs as a possibility of a larger truth that I have no hope of fully understanding.

Since God is Omnipotent . . . without a beginning or an end . . . I believe that BOTH of our beliefs are correct. Ahmad's beliefs are correct for him, and my beliefs are correct for me.

I have learned to tolerate the differences of the beliefs of my fellow man, because I would want them to tolerate what I believe. It is the teachings of Christ that taught me that, and it works for me. It's also not worth my time FIGHTING about God. Why should I fight a battle of religious differences that He deems not worth the effort? If either Ahmad or myself were a heathen, and if it was a direct affront against Him, would he not have stricken either one of us dead?

And if this is what you believe . . . then that's fine. I respect your beliefs . . . but its not right for me. Thanks for the insight, anyhow. It is yet another side of the story to think about.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[size=large]Making Dreams And Nightmares a Virtual Reality.[/size]
Professor Otto von Schnitzelpusskrankengescheitmeyer
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-13-2005, 10:53 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 382
Default Re: Why Islam Will Go Down When Babylon Falls

Peace,

Eventhough i don't follow the "Islam" you all know, i should clarify the misconceptions about Quran because it is the final testament of the religion of Abraham Submission.

So let's take it point by point,

1- "Who but God could create a child in the womb of Mary?!"

Indeed, none but God could create a child in the womb of Mary.

2- "Who would that child be if not the offspring--in this case, the Son--of its creator??"

The author here jumps to a conclusion of his own. A child being "created" in a womb of a woman doesn't automatically imply that it's "the offspring" of that "creator". If we follow backwardly the author's logic, we should consider the human "husband/father" the "creator" of his son!. God created the elephant in the mother elephant's womb, is God the father of the elephant?

3- "This makes no sense because there is no claim that Adam was born of woman as the Koran says Jesus was."

Now what difference would it make if the man in question is born of a woman or not? God is Capable of everything, He just says "be" and it is.

Quran[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.

[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.

By the way "Allah" means "God" in Arabic, and it is not a proper name. It is the same god of all religions.

4- "How then can this same virgin born Jesus be a prophet of Allah (God), and not be his son as Jesus repeatedly said he was in the Bible...without being a liar?"


Jesus was not a liar, he was an honourable messenger from God. The liars are the ones who injected or twisted the meanings to come up with "the son of God" ideology, which is nothing but "idolatery" disguised.

Jesus would never have said that he is the physical son of God. At least if he said it, he would have meant the spirtual connection as in:

[Romans 8:14] All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.


5-"The entire credibility of the Koran and Islam rests on all-out commitment to believing in Muhammad--an illiterate man who had fits and revelations from Satan and believed that he was demon possessed."

Muhammad was not illiterate, in Quran God points that the final testament was "dictated" on Muhammad and that he wrote it with his own hands. As for the posession by Satan, these are lies propagated by the Hadith books that Satan fabricated to subvert the message from within.

6-"He had 11 wives (one 9 years old) and claimed to have been married to Mary the mother of Jesus and Moses’ sister Miriam and Pharoah’s wife on his flight into the seven heavens.Muhammad was a superstitous man who recommended drinking camel urine for good health, and putting the right shoe on first and taking the left shoe off first. He also advocated dipping a housefly that might have gotten into one’s drink because one wing was diseased and the other held the cure"

All these are lies aimed to discredit Muhammad and assail his personality instead of debating the message itself. These lies can be found in the Satanic "Hadith" books (the equivelant of the Jewsih satanic Talmoud) which the majority of Muslims follow instead of Quran.

7-"How credible is such a man with when he is put alongside six hundred years of support for the New Testament claims of Jesus’ Sonship from Jesus Himself, His Apostles, hundreds of contemporary witnesses and thousands of copiers of that sacred text"

excerpt from appendix 22 "the authorized english translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa":

The Quran, informs us that Jesus was a human messenger of God whose sole mission was to deliver God's message; he never possessed any power, and is now dead (4:171, 5:75, 117).
Those who consider Jesus to be God, or Son of God, or part of a trinity are "pagans" (5:17, 72, 73). Outstanding Christian scholars have reached these same conclusions (THE MYTH OF GOD INCARNATE, John Hick, ed., The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977 & THE MYTH MAKER, Hyam Maccoby,Harper & Row 1986). Christianity is the product of Nicene (AD 325).


8-"For example, Muhammad or somebody just changed Abraham’s son of promise from being Isaac to Ishmael, and then asserted that the parts of the New Testament Gospel that wouldn’t fit with that change had been corrupted and the Koran was telling it like it is. Confusing, yes; but not very persuasive when you think about it.
The Bible makes the point that Satan, not God, is the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). Draw your own conclusions."

Well, as for the bible it is not proven (around 90% is truth though), Quran being the final testament that confirms and supersedes the previous scriptures have a built in physical proof of authenticity, The Miracle of 19. Which is more than enough to convince those who harbor doubts about it.

9-"The Koran teaches that females are possessions and that their primary assignment in marriage and in Allah’s paradise is to service men sexually"

Nowhere in Quran can we find such utter lies! why doesn't the author mention his sources, which i have no doubt are the satanic books of "Hadith".

Quran on the contrary says that men and women are allies of each other, with different roles but equal in rights and rewards,

[9:71] The believing men and women are allies of one another. They advocate righteousness and forbid evil, they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they obey GOD and His messenger. These will be showered by GOD's mercy. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[9:72] GOD promises the believing men and the believing women gardens with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever, and magnificent mansions in the gardens of Eden. And GOD's blessings and approval are even greater. This is the greatest triumph.

10-"The Moslem leaders who fostered their century’s of Jihad were true to their holy book. Which holy book is really "holy"; and which God is really "holy"? "

The alleged "Jihad" in the sense of holy war is totally against Quran. The books of "Hadith" developed by Satan introduced this vicious idea to the religion.

See this for an example of a satanic Jihad Hadith:
Nick Berg.

Where as in Quran, God warns against agression, and repeatedly stresses that war is allowed only in case of self defense or to wage off oppression.

[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.

No compulsion in religion:

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.


11-"Finally, Allah is to be feared and worshipped obediently, frequently, and ritually with little or no personal interaction from his dutiful subjects given or required"


All the forms of worship are aimed at enhancing this personal contact with God. The very word of prayer in Quran is "AlSalaa" which means "the contact-prayer".

God is to be revrenced and loved, not to be feared in the negative sense. God promises those who love Him the most, those who don't associate partners with Him (e.g: Jesus, Muhammad or the saints) forgivness and perfect happiness now and forever.

[5:9] GOD promises those who believe and lead a righteous life forgiveness and a great recompense.

-----------------------------------------------

I just wish that whoever wants to post an article attacking Quran (attack Islam as you wish though!) to choose articles that mention the Quranic sources.


Ahmad


-----------------------------------------------

Mary

[19:16] Mention in the scripture Mary. She isolated herself from her family, into an eastern location.

[19:17] While a barrier separated her from them, we sent to her our Spirit. He went to her in the form of a human being.

[19:18] She said, "I seek refuge in the Most Gracious, that you may be righteous."

[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."

[19:20] She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."

[19:21] He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' "

The Birth of Jesus

[19:22] When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place.

[19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten."

[19:24] (The infant) called her from beneath her, saying, "Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided you with a stream.

[19:25] "If you shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will drop ripe dates for you.*
Footnote

[19:26] "Eat and drink, and be happy. When you see anyone, say, `I have made a vow of silence; I am not talking today to anyone.' "

[19:27] She came to her family, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have committed something that is totally unexpected.

[19:28] "O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste."

The Infant Makes a Statement

[19:29] She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"

[19:30] (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.

[19:31] "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.

[19:32] "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.

[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."

The Proven Truth

[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.

[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.

[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."*
Footnote

[19:37] The various parties disputed among themselves (regarding the identity of Jesus). Therefore, woe to those who disbelieve from the sight of a terrible day.

[19:38] Wait till you hear them and see them when they come to face us. The transgressors on that day will be totally lost.

[19:39] Warn them about the day of remorse, when judgment will be issued. They are totally oblivious; they do not believe.

[19:40] We are the ones who inherit the earth and everyone on it; to us everyone will be returned.


----------------------------


Gross Blasphemy

[19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"!

[19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.

[19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.

[19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.

[19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

[19:93] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.

[19:94] He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.

[19:95] All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.

[19:96] Surely, those who believe and lead a righteous life, the Most Gracious will shower them with love.

[19:97] We thus made this (Quran) elucidated in your tongue, in order to deliver good news to the righteous, and to warn with it the opponents.

[19:98] Many a generation before them we annihilated; can you perceive any of them, or hear from them any sound?
__________________
---------------------------------------
God\'s alternative, USN

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[3:19] The only religion approved by GOD is \"Submission.\"...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-13-2005, 11:50 AM
nohope187 nohope187 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,354
Default Re: Why Islam Will Go Down When Babylon Falls

I haven't read anyone's post on this thread so, this is totally off the cuff from the title. Hells no, Islam won't go down when Iraq falls, there's still Iran and Syria. Plus, there's a shitload of muslims in Europe and North Africa.
my 2 cents. :roll: int: :evil: :-o ops: 8-) :hammer:
__________________
So pardon me while I burst into flames.
I\'ve had enough of the world and it\'s people\'s mindless games.
So pardon me while I burn, and rise above the flame. Pardon me, pardon me, I\'ll never be the same. -Brandon Boyd
:roll:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
int: :evil: :-...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-13-2005, 11:55 AM
rushdoony rushdoony is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 556
Default Re: Why Islam Will Go Down When Babylon Falls

Sources,

1. The Bible
2. The Quran
3. See below:

Having made a modest but sincere effort to understand the powerful religion of Islam (HERE - HERE), I finally found what seems to me to be the ideal book for that purpose for Christians and other non-Muslims. The book is: Unveiling Islam, by Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner and Dr. Emir Fethi Caner (Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI 49501, 2002, 251 pp.)


Since the Caner brothers are former Muslims who have become Christians, their book and their extensive witness for Christianity are, of course, all anathema in the Moslem world.


Since, also, the Caner’s TV and print-media endorsements seem to be exclusively from sources locked into Christian Zionism, I must admit I expected to find a strong Zionist bias that would warp their treatment of Islam. I didn’t find much of that.


So, while I learned a lot about Islam from the Caners, and found next to nothing to criticize, I can’t begin to quote all the things I would like to...as that would take fifty pages or so. Rather, I will simply recommend the book as a very reliable information-packed source of information about the Koran and Islam... information, I am happy to report, that has the virtue of reflecting a sincere and loving Christian attitude.
http://www.fixedearth.com/Christianity%20&%20Islam.htm website by Marshall Hall, Georgia,USA
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bush's Approval Rating Falls to New Low C0m1ngD0wn What is really going on? 14 10-26-2007 08:51 PM
New Babylon the world capital? littlejohn Opinions 3 05-10-2006 09:44 AM
Iran sanctions push falls on deaf ears SeC Opinions 0 04-20-2006 03:40 PM
watching the wheels go around in Mystery BABYLON noahsark723 The War in Iraq 4 05-17-2005 07:00 PM
The Pharmakeia of Mystery Babylon Protocol Share the knowledge 3 03-14-2005 06:23 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:57 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.