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  #11  
Old 04-13-2005, 09:29 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?


Here's a quote from <a href="http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/medit.html">MEDITERRANEAN TRADITION AGAINST CHRISTIAN TRADITION</a>
Julius Evola (Translation from Imperialismo pagano, Atanor, Todi-Roma 1928)

I have to say I agree that one of the biggest crimes ever committed in the name of Christ was the total annihilation and destruction of pre-Christian wisdom of the "primitive, savage, barbarian" peoples of pagan Europe.


"Anti-Europe means Anti-Christianity. And anti-Christianity consists in the Mediterranean classical, and pagan tradition that is our own. This must be perfectly clear.

Without a return to such a tradition, no liberation will be possible, no true restoration, no transfer of spirit, power, and empire into the realm of values. But let not our "anti" give rise to misunderstandings. They, not we, are forces of negation. They are the ones who sapped Rome, contaminated Wisdom, and destroyed aristocracy in the name of a reign of sentimentalism and humanitarianism ruled by "enemies of the world". And they did so in order to exalt a superstition according to which God is an executed man and enslaver of other men whom he condemns to damnation unless "grace" intervenes on their behalf. No more foolish or absurd fable has ever been devised than that which treats paganism as a synonym for materiliaty and corruption, while Christianity is, instead, associated with purity and spirituality. Yet this superstition still manages to inform so much contemporary thinking!"

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  #12  
Old 04-13-2005, 09:35 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

But was that Christs fault? Or the zealots who followed?

I think the Pagan types had to be lifted out of their own filth.

Christianity is the move into complex consciousness.

Can Mother Earth be integrated into this consciousness without a move backwards?

Does Christianity as we speak embody these principals anyway? Is it more the failings of a fairly pathetic/average preistly caste who unfortunately hav'nt lived an awful lot and whose interpretation of things is sadly lacking?

Answer immediately lest you be drawn and quatered in the Catholic tradition...for your own good of course.
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  #13  
Old 04-13-2005, 10:02 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

Quote:
Christianity is the move into complex consciousness.
I can't say I agree totally with the above quote.

Having read Evola's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089281506X/poecentral-20/002-4076047-0911257">"Revolt Against The Modern World"</a> and being of the opinion the Vedic doctrine of the Four Ages is correct, I have to say I believe we're at the end of time as we know it, and all of the earth's history until the present time is a huge degeneration and a manifestation of universal decadence, which started with the corruption of The Golden Age.

Also, Evola presents some very convincing - and unorthodox - thoughts on why Christianity in his view is a degeneration.

While I can agree with him on his points, (which I can't at the moment post here for lack of time) he doesn't dismiss the sincerity or genuineness of Christians. What he tries to say is that the spirituality of the Christian doctrine is in fact inferior to, for example, the Roman one, or the ones even before the Roman one. He does not say these prior manifestations of a different spirituality were perfect in any way - on the contrary. He says about the Atlantean civilization that it too degenerated due to the greed, hostility and violence of the degenerated spirituality of the warrior and priestly castes. But it all follows a huge motion of a downward spiral of existence, which is unstoppable: it's the destiny of creation.
Instead of seeing our existence as going from Chaos to Order, Evola sees it the complete opposite way: Order to Chaos.

I'll try to look up some texts that I can either find on the net or I'll just sit down with one of my books and type it in.

If you haven't already read my <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=590&forum=3&PHPSESSID=d5327 f40f953d4a52df0b3800afa7c60">INTEGRAL TRADITION</a> thread and my <a href="http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=677&forum=3&PHPSESSID=d5327 f40f953d4a52df0b3800afa7c60">SOLIPSISM - KALI YUGA - RIGHT-WING ATTITUDE</a> I recommend you to start there.

Also, check out this site compiling online material by and about <a href="http://www.codeschaos.0catch.com/juliusevola.html">Julius Evola</a>.
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  #14  
Old 04-13-2005, 03:28 PM
MasonTemplar MasonTemplar is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

"MT, does your organisation have a secret handshake or 'secret' attributes of any kind?"

I think I mentioned it before, but if not - The only oath we took was to adhere to the teachings of Jesus the Christ. We did not take an oath to ourselves or any other earthly entity. Therefore, we wouldn't perjur ourselves for another KC, seek retribution for an act against a KC, etc.
Catholics aren't supposed to take any oath to another individual because that places the possibility of said individual to come first before God in our decisions. So, if you wanted to know what teachings or ideals we're supposed to exemplify, just check out what it's like to be a Catholic. I'm not saying you need to convert or anything - far from it. I'm just saying that there's nothing hidden. The only thing you wouldn't see is the actual initiation ceremony. I can tell you that there isn't anything in the ceremony that you wouldn't know. But, there's a certain theatrical way it's presented that is meant to be a surprise for the initiate.
As for the Fasces, it's used in the terms as our fight against sin - generally speaking our own sins. It's not meant to mean that we want to institute a fascist hegemon over the world. That would be giving us too much credit. In every council, we pray the rosary before each meeting and then we organize what we have to do for the upcoming "coffee and donut" Sunday we're in charge of or figuring out what churches we need to attend when doing our Mentally Handicapped Tootsie Roll Drive or who's going to be able to help out at our annual retired nuns Christmas party or who's going to be able to serve soup at the local Catholic Charities Thanksgiving foodline. We're supposed to be humble servants of charity - that's pretty much it. I am a 4th degree KC. Out of the 12,000 councils that exist, we're in the first 300 formed and our council has existed for 110 years. For the higher councils that oversee the organization as a whole, there aren't a whole lot of people from the aristocracy. I think you would be hard pressed to find any. There are some people who have money, but for the most part we're a bunch of poor bastards even in our national leadership positions.
I have come across a couple of guys who were both a mason and a KC, but in order to do that he has to lie to his council about being a member to a lodge (no I didn't rat them out - neither one of them were elite by any means, nor did they hold key officer positions where their affiliation would affect their council decisions - nice guys really).
There are other organizations, like the masonic network, that have much more influence than the KCs. The KCs hit their high point shortly after WWII because many who fought the war turned to religion as a means of coping with their experiences. That's why they had some influence in the changing of the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's, and that is why the 4th degree (which was a new addition) is the Patriotic degree. The membership numbers have dwindled since the old guys are dying off and the number of young guys can't make up for the difference.
Back to the whole symbolism thing, it's a lot easier to find masonic imagery in our everyday lives than it is for anything else. Do all of the uses of these symbols mean the same thing they did back at their incepetion? Do the people who decide to use the symbols always know what the original meaning was - not usually. You'd have to know the background of the organization and its past and current members, employees, officials, etc. before you could make any guesses.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2005, 04:17 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

Fasci were the bunch of sticks around an axe that were carried by the lictors before a Roman magistrate with some kind of mandate. It meant he carried the power of Rome to do something.
Mussolini used the fasci as a symbol because he was into reviving the Roman Empire glory to Italy...(grin)
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2005, 08:20 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

Yeh...reviving the Roman Empire! LOL LOL LOL LOL...by the method of retreat!

I still find it hard to beleive the wogs once ruled the Earth? Thats like saying the Micks once ruled the Earth...from a pub...a long line of communication!

BTW...these are terms of endearment in Oz.

Sorry Marco...of course I admire the Italian intelligence. Fighting stupid wars when you could be home sipping wine and checking out the Bella's. Australians love to give it to the wogs for there retreat in battle...but who's smarter? Mercs for the Brits, or men who wanted to go home to their families?

Not that it's entirely relevent but I read the key to the Roman order of battle is that they taught, over and over, their troops to 'thrust' with their swords rather than slash away in a frenzy.

Once pierced, the enemy would drop immediately from shock. You can be slashed an awful lot and still keep going.

Must remember that.
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  #17  
Old 04-14-2005, 03:07 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

Quote:
Do all of the uses of these symbols mean the same thing they did back at their incepetion? Do the people who decide to use the symbols always know what the original meaning was - not usually.
I've made this point earlier. Very important. One of the problems today when speaking about these issues is that the meanings of symbols and words get corrupted, either on purpose or unintentionally. So it's difficult to talk about these things with someone who takes it for granted that the meaning of for instance, the swastika, is evil due to Hitler's use of it. What about all the ancient civilization all over the world who have used the same symbol? Have they all been Nazis? I don't think so. The swastika in all these ancient civilizations was used as a symbol for the sun. Just an example.

How about this interpretation of the cross:

Also the cross has been found being used long before the advent of Christianity. There are people who say that the "original" meaning of the so-called <a href="http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefssolar.htm">"solar cross"</a>
is the division of the cell; first there is the monad,
a symbol for the Sun or the One, that is God. This is then split in two halves which symbolizes God's division of Heaven from Earth, which then is also divided so we get the "solar cross", which of course have multiple meanings: the elements, the seasons, the temperaments, etc.
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  #18  
Old 04-14-2005, 04:00 AM
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Yeoshua Yeoshua is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

Quote:
MasonTemplar wrote:
If you want a truly powerful Catholic fraternity - go after the Military Order of the Knights of Malta. They have their own website. Just look how much rigamorole one has to go through to become one. If you're not already on the inside, there's no chance.
Sorry MT, The Order of the Knights of Malta is the 9th degree in the York Rite of Freemasonry.
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  #19  
Old 04-14-2005, 02:48 PM
MasonTemplar MasonTemplar is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

I beg to differ, Yeoshua: http://www.orderofmalta.org/index.asp?idlingua=5

It may be a 9th degree in the York Rite, but only by name. This is the true order: aka the Hospitallers.

I'm truly surprised you didn't know this. These guys, along with the masons, tend to get implicated in almost everything.

As far as it being the 9th degree in the York Rite, does that mean that the Templars are still in existence through that same Rite, or is it some revamped hybrid ceremonial thing in honor of the old order?
One thing's for certain, the 9th degree ain't the real deal.
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  #20  
Old 04-14-2005, 04:34 PM
nohope187 nohope187 is offline
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Default Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? And that is...?

Re: ARE THEY WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE? Only if you believe they are whoever the hell they are. In that case, they are them. But if not, then no. :-P
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