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  #41  
Old 07-24-2009, 02:09 PM
Astronut Astronut is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!


Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
I'm not sure what your delta H is a reference to Astronut but it could be the energy absorbed when a bond is formed.
It's the net energy lost to break the bond, in this case, or the net energy lost to form it. If the graph were reversed it would be the net energy gained by breaking or forming it. When that breakage occurs you will still get a release of energy, there's no such thing as breaking or forming bonds without overcoming the activation energy needed to do so.
Quote:
Some reactions are endothermic. But this has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
It has everything to do with it, the process of breaking titanium atoms apart in a sample of titanium metal is an endothermic process.
Quote:
As for what bond energy actually is, take the following quote from Wikipedia:
You obviously don't know what "bond dissociation energy" is or you wouldn't have offered that quote just now.
Quote:
"Another example: an O–H bond of a water molecule (H–O–H) has 493.4 kJ mol-1 of bond dissociation energy,
Bond dissociation energy IS delta H, you just proved my point. From your own wiki page:
"For instance, the bond dissociation energy for one of the C-H bonds in ethane (C2H6) is defined by the process:
CH3CH2-H → Ethyl Radical + H.
D0 = ΔH = 101.1 kcal/mol (423.0 kJ/mol)"
You're not talking about the energy actually required to start breaking the bond, you're talking about the energy actually lost in doing so, delta H on the above graph I posted.

"Every reaction in which bonds are broken will have a high energy transition state that must be reached before products can form. In order for the reactants to reach this transition state, energy must be supplied and reactant molecules must orient themselves in a suitable fashion. The energy needed to raise the reactants to the transition state energy level is called the activation energy, ΔE"
Chemical Reactivity


Last edited by Astronut : 07-24-2009 at 02:16 PM.
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  #42  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:55 AM
galexander galexander is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

You just never give up do you Astronut? However you do have a tendency to misquote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronut View Post
It has everything to do with it, the process of breaking titanium atoms apart in a sample of titanium metal is an endothermic process.
Who said anything about breaking titanium atoms apart? Are you talking about nuclear fission Astronut?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronut View Post
You obviously don't know what "bond dissociation energy" is or you wouldn't have offered that quote just now.
It was actually Wikipedia which spoke of "Bond dissociation energy" while explaining what "Bond energy" was. I suggest you reread the quote carefully:

"Another example: an OH bond of a water molecule (HOH) has 493.4 kJ mol-1 of bond dissociation energy, and 424.4 kJ mol-1 is needed to cleave the remaining OH bond. The BOND ENERGY of the OH bonds in water is 458.9 kJ mol-1, which is the average of the values."
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  #43  
Old 07-27-2009, 06:33 AM
Astronut Astronut is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
You just never give up do you Astronut? However you do have a tendency to misquote.

Who said anything about breaking titanium atoms apart? Are you talking about nuclear fission Astronut?
I copied everything you said to the letter, I never misquoted you. You, however, are either deliberately distorting what I said or you're more ignorant than I thought. I am NOT talking about nuclear fission, when I say "breaking titanium atoms apart" I'm talking about breaking them apart from EACH OTHER, I'm talking about breaking bonds, not the atoms themselves. I thought that was pretty obvious, but apparently I have to spoon feed you every word I say or else you'll misunderstand it just like you did the wiki article about bond dissociation energy.
Quote:
It was actually Wikipedia which spoke of "Bond dissociation energy" while explaining what "Bond energy" was. I suggest you reread the quote carefully:
The article was actually titled bond dissociation energy for a reason; that's what it's talking about, and it even explicitly uses the words "bond dissociation energy" (as previously mentioned, equal to delta H on my graph) in your quote. You just proved my point, thanks for pointing it out again.
Quote:
"Another example: an OH bond of a water molecule (HOH) has 493.4 kJ mol-1 of bond dissociation energy, and 424.4 kJ mol-1 is needed to cleave the remaining OH bond. The BOND ENERGY of the OH bonds in water is 458.9 kJ mol-1, which is the average of the values."
In case you didn't notice (obviously you're too busy quote mining), the bond energy it's talking about here is the average bond dissociation energy of the entire molecule and has nothing to do with the activation energy required to start breaking the bond, only the average net energy absorbed by the entire process. Take a college chemistry class, then maybe you'll know the difference between dissociation energies and the actual energy required to start breaking bonds. They are not the same, as I've demonstrated over and over. Ignoring it won't change the truth. Here's a little homework assignment for you; find out the "bond energy" of H2 and O2 diatomic species, then add those values in the correct proportions (half of O2 to one of H2) to the negative of 458.9 times two (to get the value for both bonds in H2O). If the result is negative you have an exothermic reaction, and indeed you do, so why don't the bonds of H2 and O2 spontaneously break and reunite as H2O at room temperature, or in the presence of UV light? It's energetically favorable, but it doesn't spontaneously occur even when there's ample amounts of reactants because you still must overcome the required activation energy, which isn't present at room temperature and isn't given by the average bond dissociation energy.
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  #44  
Old 07-27-2009, 11:41 AM
galexander galexander is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

Astronut the page I quoted from Wikipedia was devoted to BOND ENERGY not BOND DISSOCIATION ENERGY.

Here is the link to prove it: Bond energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the first line of the webpage:

Quote:
In chemistry, bond energy (E) is a measure of bond strength in a chemical bond.
And the second paragraph was the initial quote I gave you:

Quote:
Another example: an OH bond of a water molecule (HOH) has 493.4 kJ mol-1 of bond dissociation energy, and 424.4 kJ mol-1 is needed to cleave the remaining OH bond. The bond energy of the OH bonds in water is 458.9 kJ mol-1, which is the average of the values.
So when you said the following Astronut you were completely wrong:

Quote:
The article was actually titled bond dissociation energy for a reason; that's what it's talking about, and it even explicitly uses the words "bond dissociation energy" (as previously mentioned, equal to delta H on my graph) in your quote. You just proved my point, thanks for pointing it out again.
Are you sure you're being serious Astronut or are you having us all on?
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  #45  
Old 07-28-2009, 07:12 AM
Astronut Astronut is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
So when you said the following Astronut you were completely wrong:
Funny, an almost identical quote occurs on the bond dissociation energy page.
"an O-H bond of a water molecule (H-O-H) has 493.4 kJ/mol of bond dissociation energy, and 424.4 kJ/mol is needed to cleave the remaining O-H bond. The bond energy of the O-H bonds in water is 458.9 kJ/mol, which is the average of the values.
"
Bond dissociation energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I shouldn't have assumed you were looking at the same page based on what you were saying, but the information contained within tells you the same thing; the bond energy you're referring to is the average bond dissociation energy and has absolutely nothing to do with the activation energy required to break the bonds. It's just the average delta H. Since your quote contains that information as well it still proves me right. So, when is your trolling conspiracy BS going to come to an end? Saw ISS again last night, it was as beautiful as ever.
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  #46  
Old 07-28-2009, 12:03 PM
galexander galexander is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

The following quote from your Bond Dissociation Energy webpage clinches it:

Quote:
Except in the case of diatomic molecules, the bond dissociation energy is different from the bond energy, which is an average calculated from the sum of the bond dissociation energies of all bonds in a molecule.
Not bad for a BS'er, eh?

As for your breaking of bonds between titanium atoms on the surface of the ISS, that probably happens as well. It is known that UV light tends to turn surfaces powdery over a period of time and don't forget the UV light in space is a lot worse than what you get at the Earth's surface.
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  #47  
Old 07-28-2009, 08:47 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

Kindly inform me when either of the main posters on this thread has proven and/or disproven that the ISS and Space Shuttle are a hoax.
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  #48  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:57 AM
galexander galexander is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

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Originally Posted by BlueAngel View Post
Kindly inform me when either of the main posters on this thread has proven and/or disproven that the ISS and Space Shuttle are a hoax.
BlueAngel, that is for you to decide.

As for myself I would of course claim that I have already proved my case.

I think the main problem is that many who read my initial post either won't understand the science or won't take my word for it when I quote scientific facts. Astronut I feel probably fits into both these categories.

Of course Astronut has made the classic mistake, and a number of times now, of trying to knock down my science but while getting it wrong himself in the process. And its so easily done. Believing someone to be wrong is one thing but actually proving it with reasoned arguments is quite another.
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Astronut Astronut is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
The following quote from your Bond Dissociation Energy webpage clinches it:
What part of "average bond dissociation energy" are you NOT understanding? That's the point! You're talking about the average delta H! Tell me where it says the average delta H has ANYTHING to do with activation energy!
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  #50  
Old 07-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Astronut Astronut is offline
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Default Re: The Space Shuttle and the ISS are a Hoax!

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
BlueAngel, that is for you to decide.

As for myself I would of course claim that I have already proved my case.

I think the main problem is that many who read my initial post either won't understand the science or won't take my word for it when I quote scientific facts. Astronut I feel probably fits into both these categories.
No one, NO ONE, should take YOUR word for it when you claim to know a scientific fact. You just demonstrated you read up until the point where the fact starts to contradict your argument and then you stop paying attention. "Bond energy" of a molecule is different than "bond dissociation energy" - you'll read that part and completely ignore what "bond energy" actually means - the average of the molecule's bond dissociation energy. All that tells you is the delta H for the complete molecule averaged across all bonds, it has nothing to do with activation energy, which is required to actually perform the act of breaking bonds. You have no clue what you're talking about but you troll about it anyway pretending to be an expert. I read your initial post, and I addressed it; my observations confirm the existence of the ISS. Your failure to properly observe it does NOT prove a negative, nor does it over-ride my positive result or the positive result of many other amateur astronomers.
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