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  #21  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:38 AM
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EireEngineer EireEngineer is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?


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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
That's unlikely, as it would halt the economy. In fact, modern capitalism actually leads to a DECREASE in quality of materials and construction because poor quality are cheaper and also because a lower lifespan of appliances and other products lead to greater consumption and therefore greater profit. Cars, radios, televisions and many other appliances have become LESS durable during the last decades as a consequence of this process.
I think you are putting too much of an onus on capitalism with this statement. The market only reacts to the whims of the masses. We certainly have developed into a society that prefers disposable to durable goods, this is hardly the fault of capitalism. The tradeoff is certainly goods of poorer quality, but also far lower cost than their more durable counterparts.

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Not only is this contrary to the workings of the capitalist system, I'm pretty sure most people just don't want to use clothers or televisions that are 50 years old either because technology has moved on or just because it's second hand.



?
I have to admit, this paragraph confused me a bit. What is contrary?

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  #22  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:18 PM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

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I think you are putting too much of an onus on capitalism with this statement. The market only reacts to the whims of the masses.
Wrong. It is the whims of the masses that are directed by PR and advertising.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
We certainly have developed into a society that prefers disposable to durable goods, this is hardly the fault of capitalism. The tradeoff is certainly goods of poorer quality, but also far lower cost than their more durable counterparts.
Most people would be happy to pay twice as much for an item that lasts 5 times longer. In fact, some products (like cleaning products) are marketed precisely with a slogan containing this context.

It is not the public that asks for poor quality products. It is poor quality products that are enforced on the masses because there is no better quality alternative.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
I have to admit, this paragraph confused me a bit. What is contrary?
Making computers that never break and buildings that never fall down and clothes that never fall apart would be contrary to the workings of the capitalist system.




con·trar·y adj.1. Opposed, as in character or purpose: contrary opinions; acts that are contrary to our code of ethics.
2. Opposite in direction or position: Our boat took a course contrary to theirs. See Synonyms at opposite.
3. Music Moving in the opposite direction at a fixed interval: playing scales in contrary motion.
4. Adverse; unfavorable: a contrary wind.
5. Given to recalcitrant behavior; willful or perverse.

n. pl. con·trar·ies 1. Something that is opposite or contrary.
2. Either of two opposing or contrary things: "Truth is perhaps . . . a dynamic compound of opposites, savage contraries for a moment conjoined" (A. Bartlett Giamatti).
3. Logic A proposition related to another in such a way that if the latter is true, the former must be false, but if the latter is false, the former is not necessarily true.

adv. In an opposite direction or manner; counter: The judge ruled contrary to all precedent in the case.

Idioms: by contraries Obsolete In opposition to what is expected.

on the contrary In opposition to what has been stated or what is expected: I'm not sick; on the contrary, I'm in the peak of health.

to the contrary To the opposite effect from what has been stated or what is expected: Despite what you say to the contary, this contract is fair.

Last edited by Out of the Box : 10-28-2009 at 03:20 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-29-2009, 05:39 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

>>That's unlikely, as it would halt the economy. In fact, modern capitalism actually leads to a DECREASE in quality of materials and construction because poor quality are cheaper and also because a lower lifespan of appliances and other products lead to greater consumption and therefore greater profit. Cars, radios, televisions and many other appliances have become LESS durable during the last decades as a consequence of this process.

You assume they had capitalist ideology? An advanced race? You can already see in our society that efficiency will one day make all jobs obsolete. Once free energy comes into play there is no consumerism. They went out at their peak, so where are those atlantian shell suits and plastic shopping bags?
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  #24  
Old 10-29-2009, 07:06 AM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

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You assume they had capitalist ideology? An advanced race?
They must have had some sort of economy. I'm usingt he capitalist system as an example since here it is most obvious and it is the system most of us are familiar with.

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You can already see in our society that efficiency will one day make all jobs obsolete.
Wrong. Non-technical jobs are simply replaced by technical jobs. For example, my job consists of improving, fixing and modifying the Business Intelligence system connected with a database of 6 TB that grows about 1 TB (1 TB = 1024 GB = 1048576 MB) annually. Many jobs at the company I work for simply didn't exist a few decades ago and many more will probably be created in the decades to come. I also like to point out that about half of the people here are external consultants because of the complexity of the IT landscape and business logic (which makes it hard to find capable employees).

Also, technology doesn't always increase the efficiency of work processes. Technology often just improves the reporting abilities while making procedures far more complex and thus less efficient. For example, some warehouses use scanners to keep track of which boxes are moved by which laborer at what time. Although this will make it easier to figure out who does more work than others, the added scanning complicates the procedure, adds a little bit of time spent and is more prone to error (both human and technical error).

The capitalist need for cost-efficiency as well as governmental needs to implement regulations before a certain deadline further lead to inefficient of bugged implementations which often leads to too complex IT landscapes, unstable (bugged) software, etc. In the long run, this creates far more overhead than it would have taken if deadlines were postponed and less effort was placed on cost-efficiency.

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Once free energy comes into play there is no consumerism.
-- Consumerism is a way the oligarchs keep the masses chained. Why would they abandon it?

-- Why would free energy abolish consumerism?

-- Why would our oligarchs allow free energy? In fact, if the wanted we probably already had free energy (Tesla already initiated research in this area many decades ago).

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
They went out at their peak, so where are those atlantian shell suits and plastic shopping bags?
A culture more advanced than ours would likely have moved beyond such materials and used biodegradable material instead as I mentioned before.
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  #25  
Old 10-30-2009, 05:39 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

>>They must have had some sort of economy.

We are arguing about something imaginary. There is no reason to believe they did or did not have an economy. You can't say "they MUST have".

>>Wrong. Non-technical jobs are simply replaced by technical jobs. For example, my job

Wrong? Wrong about an IMAGINARY place and society. How can I be wrong about it? I'm extrapolating the idea of a perfect society. Anyone knows a technical job can be just as obsolete as a non technical. Computers and robots will one day all the jobs. Even fixing each other. That's a logical stream. Even creativity will one day be a matter of pushing a button.

>>Also, technology doesn't always increase the efficiency of work processes.

You seem to think a perfect society ends with what you've experienced. You haven't experienced advanced technology. So why are you commenting on it as if you have?

>>-- Consumerism is a way the oligarchs keep the masses chained. Why would they abandon it?

-- Why would free energy abolish consumerism?

-- Why would our oligarchs allow free energy? In fact, if the wanted we probably already had free energy (Tesla already initiated research in this area many decades ago).


WHY are you assuming there WERE oligarchs in Atlantis? This seems to be guess work beyond the pale.

Unless you were there, were you?
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  #26  
Old 10-30-2009, 06:44 AM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
We are arguing about something imaginary.
No we're not.

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
There is no reason to believe they did or did not have an economy.
Name one culture beyond the stage of hunter-gatherer or farming society that didn't have an economy.

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
>>Wrong. Non-technical jobs are simply replaced by technical jobs. For example, my job

Wrong? Wrong about an IMAGINARY place and society. How can I be wrong about it? I'm extrapolating the idea of a perfect society.
We're not talking about an imaginary perfect society but about reality.

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Anyone knows a technical job can be just as obsolete as a non technical. Computers and robots will one day all the jobs. Even fixing each other.
Knowing the current stage of human technology and man's nature to screw up, I find that very hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
You seem to think a perfect society ends with what you've experienced.
Again, we aren't referring to a perfect society.

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
You haven't experienced advanced technology.
I work in IT. I experience advanced technology on a daily basis

Quote:
Originally Posted by albie View Post
WHY are you assuming there WERE oligarchs in Atlantis? This seems to be guess work beyond the pale.
You said "You can already see in our society that efficiency will one day make all jobs obsolete. Once free energy comes into play there is no consumerism." This is a reference to our future, so I used the present as a start.
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  #27  
Old 10-30-2009, 07:04 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

OMG.

You're off on one pal. You're mad, in other words.

>>I work in IT. I experience advanced technology on a daily basis

OMG! I was clearly talking about a proposed ultra advanced tech. A matchstick is advanced technology by your definition. I'm talking about technology that is far in advance of anything we know. Hence your view of your DELL job has no bearing.

Originally Posted by albie
We are arguing about something imaginary.

>>No we're not.

You have exact details of Atlantis technology and culture do you? No. We are guessing. Hence imaginary, theoritical.
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  #28  
Old 10-30-2009, 07:09 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

>>Knowing the current stage of human technology and man's nature to screw up, I find that very hard to believe.

CURRENT is the word.

You are basing your arguments on here and now. We are talking about a theory that is only loosely connected to the CURRENT. You ASSUME too much in your favor.

A perfect society would have created something indestructable that would still be around today. OR it wasn't perfect. Logic. You are arguing that it wasn't perfect. Fine. End of discussion.
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  #29  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:00 AM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

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OMG.

You're off on one pal. You're mad, in other words.
You call it mad. Mensa prefers to call it genius (I used to be a member of Mensa Belgium).

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
OMG! I was clearly talking about a proposed ultra advanced tech.
You're talking about utopian sci-fi technology. I'm talking about technology that seems feasible in the future (and for this I consult my knowledge of high-tech today).

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
Hence your view of your DELL job has no bearing.
My DELL job? Business Intelligence is quite a different playing field from a "DELL job".

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
Originally Posted by albie
We are arguing about something imaginary.

>>No we're not.

You have exact details of Atlantis technology and culture do you? No. We are guessing.
We have anachronistic anomalies from other cultures during the last 5000 years and various monolithic structures from unknown eras and cultures. The imply knowledge of how to carve into diorite, knowledge of how to cut huge stone blocks and place them perfectly on top of one another, knowledge of how to make alluminum, advanced knowlegde of astronomy, knowledge of quantum physics, the ability to travel all over the world, etc.

The existence of an advanced high culture in the part is further confirmed by the mythology of numerous ancient peoples, where these

Quote:
Originally Posted by albie View Post
Hence imaginary, theoritical.
Even if we did not have any evidence of a high advanced civilisation in our deep past at all (which we do have), that doesn't mean we should approach such a concept from a utopian and purely hypothetical perspective. Instead of philosophising about an imaginary utopia, we can apply our understanding of anthropology, psychology, sociology and modern engineering to get an idea of what such a culture could have been like. Otherwise, the entire topic is pointless and only interesting for a high school philosophy class.

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Originally Posted by albie View Post
>>Knowing the current stage of human technology and man's nature to screw up, I find that very hard to believe.

CURRENT is the word.
We can only judge human capabilities by what we know about today and about the past.... If there's no proven historical precedent of technological perfection and many precedents of technological screw-ups up until this very day, your ramblings about technological perfection are meaningless.

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A perfect society would have created something indestructable that would still be around today.
The piramids, the Mayan pyramids, the structure in Tihuanacu and many other monolithic structures all over the world are still around today in quite good condition and show traces of anachronistic advanced knowledge. We don't know how many more are still submerged beneath the world's deserts (in Egypt, there's a monolithic structure of an unknown era located many meters below any other structures in that area) or other locations?

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OR it wasn't perfect. Logic. You are arguing that it wasn't perfect. Fine. End of discussion.
Of course it wasn't perfect. Nothing human is ever perfect, so I really don't see your point. Where did I suggest a perfect ancient culture? Why did you bring up this pointless concept?
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  #30  
Old 10-31-2009, 08:20 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Real Atlantis Story Suppressed?

Mensa?

You are framing Atlantian technology in such a way that explains the lack of indestructable materials around today. To do this you are having to bend over backwards and make stuff up. It looks clumsily like grasping at straws.

It's too much. I suppose they didn't have satellites either. No satellites in the sky to speak of. Oh, then you'll say they were advanced in THAT particular branch of technology to not NEED them. How convenient. See what I mean? You are like a christian desperately trying to explain away dinosaur bones.

It doesn't look convincing.
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