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  #11  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:56 AM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics


This Mexican flu "pandemic" is no worse than a normal flu epidemic. I'm not sure why the media and politicians are hyping this, but it could be just a ruse to make more profit from vaccinations.

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  #12  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Originally Posted by revolution60 View Post
Money was the absolute WORST invention to society on a UNIVERSAL scale

it is just a slave tool. it's fake, and almost everything it buys is fake!

What you experience as reality right now, is not how it was supposed to be! You were born "into" this, that's why it seems like reality to you, you simply know nothing else.
Money isn't the problem. The problem is the way money is used in our economy (eg. using money to create more money rather than working for it). If money is just a way to regulate the exchange of goods, it's a very useful tool.
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  #13  
Old 11-03-2009, 12:04 PM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Money isn't the problem. The problem is the way money is used in our economy (eg. using money to create more money rather than working for it). If money is just a way to regulate the exchange of goods, it's a very useful tool.
Please explain your line about "using money to create more money" please. What do you mean by that?
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2009, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Please explain your line about "using money to create more money" please. What do you mean by that?
I'm referring mostly to usury and speculation. Both were considered immoral for most of man's history.
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Quoting the definitions of usury and speculation by Wikipedia doesn't explain your comment that they use money to create money.

USING your own words to explain your comment that they use money to create money is requested.
What's not to understand? With usury, you loan your money to others and receive profit from it without doing any work yourself (you just provide the money and that's it). With speculation, you do pretty much the same except that the risks for losing the investment of parts thereof is greater. However, in both cases it is money that creates money whereas in a healthy economy only labor should create money.
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  #16  
Old 11-04-2009, 10:10 AM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
What's not to understand? With usury, you loan your money to others and receive profit from it without doing any work yourself (you just provide the money and that's it). With speculation, you do pretty much the same except that the risks for losing the investment of parts thereof is greater. However, in both cases it is money that creates money whereas in a healthy economy only labor should create money.
Without loans, capital creation is nearly impossible, and the loan has to earn interest for the lender in order to service the debt. You are taking a pretty primitive view of economics. We dont live in the bronze age anymore.
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  #17  
Old 11-04-2009, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
Without loans, capital creation is nearly impossible, and the loan has to earn interest for the lender in order to service the debt.
I guess you never heard of Islamic banking. Just like it used to be in Western Christian countries (Jews became so succesful in banking precisely because it was considered immoral by gentiles), loaning money in exchange for interest is illegal in Islam. Nevertheless, Muslems found a way to keep their economy going without interest.

Still, a better way to manage an economy is to abolish loans for profit altogether and have the population buy something only when they actually have the money for it (like most people outside of the US still do --> I never loaned any money and don't even own a credit card). Exceptions can be made for large expenses like starting up your own business or buying your own house and here the government could serve as an agency that provides loans without interest according to pre-determined rules and principles.

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You are taking a pretty primitive view of economics.
No I don't. You do, because you only seem to understand how the capitalist economy works and you seem to lack any understanding of economic principles beyond capitalism.
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
I guess you never heard of Islamic banking. Just like it used to be in Western Christian countries (Jews became so succesful in banking precisely because it was considered immoral by gentiles), loaning money in exchange for interest is illegal in Islam. Nevertheless, Muslems found a way to keep their economy going without interest.

Still, a better way to manage an economy is to abolish loans for profit altogether and have the population buy something only when they actually have the money for it (like most people outside of the US still do --> I never loaned any money and don't even own a credit card). Exceptions can be made for large expenses like starting up your own business or buying your own house and here the government could serve as an agency that provides loans without interest according to pre-determined rules and principles.



No I don't. You do, because you only seem to understand how the capitalist economy works and you seem to lack any understanding of economic principles beyond capitalism.
LOL, right, you know exactly my economic education. Listen, I have read Smith and Keynes, Friedman and Marx, and I do have a broad understanding of economic theories, though admittedly limited in scope since I am an engineer, not an economist. However, I am not convinced by your assertion that eliminating usury will have a beneficial effect on the economy. What is even more ludicrous is to hold up the Muslims (note the correct spelling) as the paragon of economic thought. Just how wealthy are Muslim economies when you factor out their luck for sitting on a big pool of oil? Not very. So I wouldn't exactly hold them up as the final arbiters of economic wisdom.

Look at the effect that abolishing loans for profit, as you say, would have on capital creation. Most modern manufacturing requires significant purchases of equipment. Without loans to purchase this material, companies could never get off the ground. This also mean that they cant hire more employees or expand when they see an opportunity to capitalize on a trend in the market. All of this would have a drastic negative impact on innovation and production, and hurt the economy as a whole.
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  #19  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
Listen, I have read Smith and Keynes, Friedman and Marx, and I do have a broad understanding of economic theories
Let's see... Two "free market" capitalists, one proponent of capitalism with state intervention and one communist. I see you stayed nicely within the black-and-white capitalism-vs-communism paradigm rather than moving beyond. You should try reading some literature from Russian anarchists like Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin, German philosophers like Oswald Spengler, Carl Schmitt, Martin Heidegger and Ernst Jünger or contemporary theorists like Troy Southgate, Alain de Benoist and Tomislav Sunić. These are the sort of thinkers that have most influence on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
I am not convinced by your assertion that eliminating usury will have a beneficial effect on the economy. What is even more ludicrous is to hold up the Muslims (note the correct spelling) as the paragon of economic thought. Just how wealthy are Muslim economies when you factor out their luck for sitting on a big pool of oil?
The success of a civilisation is not determined by the its GNP but by its ability to remain stable and take care of its citizens. In fact, raping the planet the capitalist way is the worst a society can develop in the long run since it might destroy our species in the long run.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
Look at the effect that abolishing loans for profit, as you say, would have on capital creation. Most modern manufacturing requires significant purchases of equipment. Without loans to purchase this material, companies could never get off the ground.
That's what I suggested the possibility of governments issuing conditional loans without interest.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
This also mean that they cant hire more employees or expand when they see an opportunity to capitalize on a trend in the market.
If the company is profitable, it can expand using these profits as capital rather than using it to pay ridiculously high wages to executives.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
All of this would have a drastic negative impact on innovation and production, and hurt the economy as a whole.
There are different ways to finance big projects. For example, government grants could be given or loaned (without interests) to companies with promising ideas.
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  #20  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Orchestrated Flu Pandemics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Let's see... Two "free market" capitalists, one proponent of capitalism with state intervention and one communist. I see you stayed nicely within the black-and-white capitalism-vs-communism paradigm rather than moving beyond. You should try reading some literature from Russian anarchists like Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin, German philosophers like Oswald Spengler, Carl Schmitt, Martin Heidegger and Ernst Jünger or contemporary theorists like Troy Southgate, Alain de Benoist and Tomislav Sunić. These are the sort of thinkers that have most influence on me.
I think that I will stick with my Richard Cantillon,Turgot, and Boehm-Bawerk, but thanks anyway.


The success of a civilisation is not determined by the its GNP but by its ability to remain stable and take care of its citizens. In fact, raping the planet the capitalist way is the worst a society can develop in the long run since it might destroy our species in the long run.
Right, because there are NOOOO environmental problems in Russia or China. Its civilization btw


That's what I suggested the possibility of governments issuing conditional loans without interest.
Ah yes, creating yet another bureaucracy which then has to be funded by either higher taxes or increases in the debt, rather than just letting market forces work. Not to menion being FAAARRRRR less efficient.


If the company is profitable, it can expand using these profits as capital rather than using it to pay ridiculously high wages to executives.
Ah yes, the tired old idiom of the left: Its all those rich CEO's fault!
In fact, the costs of upgrading even one manufacturing facility in most cases would outstrip all of the executive compensations put together
.


There are different ways to finance big projects. For example, government grants could be given or loaned (without interests) to companies with promising ideas.
Ah yes, the promise of having a wise panel of philosopher kings, who will, by the way, have a monopoly on all lending. Talk about dampening innovation.
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