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  #81  
Old 11-13-2009, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Insulting? I don't see where he's insulting anyone....

Now, I'm personally not convinced that references to prior knowledge of 9/11 would be hidden in Hollywood films (the evidence is quite poor and why would anyone do such a thing, really?), but you could at least TRY to give an argument rather than just ignore the whole film just because you're supposebly offended....
"watch this, and then if you have the balls". Funny...seemed like nobody in Europe had the "balls" to stop the Bosnian slaughter, but myself and a few thousand of my close friends did it in a few days. lol Damn us bastard Americans.

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  #82  
Old 11-13-2009, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

i have been through thousands and thousands of illuminati t.v. and movie spots, commercial spots, thousands of 9/11 coincidences in movies, shows, commercials.

it is IMPOSSIBLE by odds that its all pure coincidence.

and to the people saying that that would be the stupidest mistake to expose themselves with little hints throughout movies and such,

well i have this simple answer.

9/11 meant absolutely nothing to you before it happened didn't it?

you think just because they hide clever little hints like dates and such that you would figure out what it meant before it happened?

it only made sense watching it now, after "9/11" happened, and you became aware, that's exactly how they like it, as i said, they love rubbing it in your faces, because the majority will never wake up, the majority will never take the time to watch them all, the majority just can not accept it.

if you take the time to view thousands and thousands and study all the meanings and symbolism it is horrificly obvious

some of them are so painfully obvious , it is quite disturbing actually.
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  #83  
Old 11-14-2009, 07:35 AM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

Its easy to see patterns in anything. Its called pareidolia, in your case coupled with obsessiveness.
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  #84  
Old 11-14-2009, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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Funny...seemed like nobody in Europe had the "balls" to stop the Bosnian slaughter
There was no Bosnian slaughter. That's just propaganda. It was just a typical conflict involving the control over a few pieces of land and Serbians were no more brutal than their enemies.

The whole NATO attack on Serbia was totally unnecessary and the greatest crime against humanity commited in Europe since WW2.

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Its easy to see patterns in anything. Its called pareidolia, in your case coupled with obsessiveness.
Sometimes, when there appears to be a pattern there actually is a pattern...
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  #85  
Old 11-14-2009, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
There was no Bosnian slaughter. That's just propaganda. It was just a typical conflict involving the control over a few pieces of land and Serbians were no more brutal than their enemies.

The whole NATO attack on Serbia was totally unnecessary and the greatest crime against humanity commited in Europe since WW2.
You can say that all you want, free country and all. However, having been one of those M9 ACE drivers that had to expose and refill some of the mass graves, I will take a different position.

And the Serbs were more brutal and determined then their enemies. One of the games the Serbs like to play was to bet how many soldiers it would take to rape a girl to death. No choking...no strangulation... no beating... they would simply fuck them to death.
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  #86  
Old 11-15-2009, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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You can say that all you want, free country and all. However, having been one of those M9 ACE drivers that had to expose and refill some of the mass graves, I will take a different position.
Free country? Did I mention several of my viewpoints are punishable by law in my country? Did I mention one of my best friends (a kind and polite father of four and one of the most well-read individuals I know) was sent to prison for his efforts in trying to educate the "radical right" by selling controversial books and organising lectures with controversial speakers? Maybe then you'll understand why I refrain from speaking openly about my views anywhere besides in an intimate circle or anonymously on the internet...

In war people die. Can you be certain the people in those graves were just innocent bystanders? Can you be sure they were victims of ethnic cleansing? Things aren't always as they seem.

When American soldiers entered Dachau and stumbled on piles with thousands of bodies in 1945 they were certain the Germans had murdered them all and went on a killing spree brutally executing hundreds of Waffen-SS personal both from the camp and a nearby garrison totally in breach of the Geneva Convention, however it would soon become clear that the emaciated bodies found at Dachau were victims of a typhus pandemic that went out of control as German infrastructure was collapsing due to continuous allied carpet bombing. I highly encourage you watch the film The Relief of Belsen that deals with a similar situation in the Bergen-Belsen camp (experienced by British troops).

I can't comment on what you saw specificly, but when you're constantly told how evil the enemy is supposed to be it's quite easy to assume ethnic cleansing when it is uncalled for.

If the Serbs did indeed kill large numbers of unarmed civilians, maybe this was an act of revenge for similar crimes commited by the enemy. This sort of retaliation actions is common and one must understand the cause of a massacre before judging its nature.

Anyway, war is always cruel and brutal and during war there is rarely a "good side".

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And the Serbs were more brutal and determined then their enemies.
Obviously. Serbs are a very proud people and the people fighting on the Serbian side were 100% convinced they were fighting a just cause, just like most of your comrades probably were.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
One of the games the Serbs like to play was to bet how many soldiers it would take to rape a girl to death. No choking...no strangulation... no beating... they would simply fuck them to death.
First of all, American GIs also group raped women both in Europe and Asia. And that's just the American GIs. The Sovjet Red Army portrayed a sort of brutality beyond the comprehension of civilised humans, yet both American GIs and these monsters were supposed to be the "good guys" because they were fighting Hitler...

Second, an essential part of black propaganda is the dehumanisation of the enemy by means of attrocity stories. Back during WW1, the German soldiers were falsely accused of cutting off babies' hands and sticking babies up their bayonets. During the Gulf War, Iraqi soldiers were falsely accused of throwing babies out of their incubators. Both accusations are generally accepted as false today, however they were used to gain support of the war effort against respectively Germany and Iraq at the time.

So we need to first ask ourselves if these stories about group rapes by Serbian soldiers are true. If they are true, we must ask ourselves if this sort of crime was perpetrated by the Serbs alone or whether the "other side" was equally guilty of such crimes. Further, we must also ask ourselves why these soldiers were doing this. Often, group rape is a way of dehumanising the enemy as revenge for a (perceived) harm by the enemy towards their own people.

Anyway, you can't judge the conflict just by what you've seen and heard alone. In times of war, things are rarely as obvious as they seem and right and wrong are replaced by a huge shade of gray.

Last edited by Out of the Box : 11-15-2009 at 08:34 AM.
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  #87  
Old 11-15-2009, 04:41 PM
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Wink Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Free country? Did I mention several of my viewpoints are punishable by law in my country? Did I mention one of my best friends (a kind and polite father of four and one of the most well-read individuals I know) was sent to prison for his efforts in trying to educate the "radical right" by selling controversial books and organising lectures with controversial speakers? Maybe then you'll understand why I refrain from speaking openly about my views anywhere besides in an intimate circle or anonymously on the internet...
Must be talking about your Holocaust denying?
Are there walls around Flanders patrolled by Einsatzgruppen keeping you in? Come on over. Hell, if its good enough for 21 million Mexicans, it cant be all bad here lol.
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
In war people die. Can you be certain the people in those graves were just innocent bystanders? Can you be sure they were victims of ethnic cleansing? Things aren't always as they seem.
Surly you cant be assuming that all of those un-uniformed women and children we found were lawful combatants or partisans? Thats laughable.
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
When American soldiers entered Dachau and stumbled on piles with thousands of bodies in 1945 they were certain the Germans had murdered them all and went on a killing spree brutally executing hundreds of Waffen-SS personal both from the camp and a nearby garrison totally in breach of the Geneva Convention, however it would soon become clear that the emaciated bodies found at Dachau were victims of a typhus pandemic that went out of control as German infrastructure was collapsing due to continuous allied carpet bombing. I highly encourage you watch the film The Relief of Belsen that deals with a similar situation in the Bergen-Belsen camp (experienced by British troops).
Ah yes, the holocaust denier syndrom. yawn
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
I can't comment on what you saw specificly, but when you're constantly told how evil the enemy is supposed to be it's quite easy to assume ethnic cleansing when it is uncalled for.

If the Serbs did indeed kill large numbers of unarmed civilians, maybe this was an act of revenge for similar crimes commited by the enemy. This sort of retaliation actions is common and one must understand the cause of a massacre before judging its nature.
Actually, most of us were pretty unaware of what exactly was going on there, besides the shelling in Sarajevo. There was no active propagandizing by our commanders as to the nature of the forces there. As far as we were concerned we were there to keep all three sides from dukeing it out, and we took just as many weapons caches away from Bosnians and Croats as we took from Serbs. The Serbs do hold the record for placement of landmines in a given area though. I find that claims like this that our commanders were 'hyping' us up on the evilness of the enemy com from two places:Hollywood, and people that have never served in combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Anyway, war is always cruel and brutal and during war there is rarely a "good side".



Obviously. Serbs are a very proud people and the people fighting on the Serbian side were 100% convinced they were fighting a just cause, just like most of your comrades probably were.



First of all, American GIs also group raped women both in Europe and Asia. And that's just the American GIs. The Sovjet Red Army portrayed a sort of brutality beyond the comprehension of civilised humans, yet both American GIs and these monsters were supposed to be the "good guys" because they were fighting Hitler...
The difference being that in many cases the US soldiers were brought up on charges under the UCMJ, and the abuses of US soldiers are not done with the express consent of the higher command, whereas the Serbian top brass ordered their troops to rape, pilliage, and destroy as much of the Bosnian countryside as they could. Yes, bad things happen on both sides of a war, and this is largely unavoidable. However, when a people actively embrace the horrible aspects of war, and therefore encourage their soldiers to participate in reprehensible acts, that is the most unconscionable crime a society can do.

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Second, an essential part of black propaganda is the dehumanisation of the enemy by means of attrocity stories. Back during WW1, the German soldiers were falsely accused of cutting off babies' hands and sticking babies up their bayonets. During the Gulf War, Iraqi soldiers were falsely accused of throwing babies out of their incubators. Both accusations are generally accepted as false today, however they were used to gain support of the war effort against respectively Germany and Iraq at the time.
Therefore what? Yes, propaganda certainly has occured in war since the invention of war. Put to assume that this means that every single time you hear an attrocity story, it is mear propeganda? That is ridiculous. How do you know the stories about American soldiers are true then, and not just merely propaganda?
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So we need to first ask ourselves if these stories about group rapes by Serbian soldiers are true. If they are true, we must ask ourselves if this sort of crime was perpetrated by the Serbs alone or whether the "other side" was equally guilty of such crimes. Further, we must also ask ourselves why these soldiers were doing this. Often, group rape is a way of dehumanising the enemy as revenge for a (perceived) harm by the enemy towards their own people.
Are you seriously trying to justify it by this "percieved harm" argument? Ridiculous!
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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Anyway, you can't judge the conflict just by what you've seen and heard alone. In times of war, things are rarely as obvious as they seem and right and wrong are replaced by a huge shade of gray.
No one said I was, but given the preponderance of evidence, it seems to me that the Serbs and the Bosnians did far worse things to each other (certainly with the Croats helping out) then we ever did to to them. I am still not sure why you have such a problem with our involvement though?
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  #88  
Old 11-16-2009, 01:53 AM
Out of the Box Out of the Box is offline
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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Must be talking about your Holocaust denying?
That, as well as my views on "democracy", multi-culturalism and Judaism.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
Are there walls around Flanders patrolled by Einsatzgruppen keeping you in? Come on over. Hell, if its good enough for 21 million Mexicans, it cant be all bad here lol.
No thanks. Maybe sometime in the future I'll more to Ireland, Scotland or Australia (these are the three countries culturally closest to my ancestrial culture), but for the time being this is no option. My funds are limited and my girlfriend is too attached to her family to move away from them at this point in time.

Where do you live at the moment? I understand your origins are in Ireland but you moved to the US, right?

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
Surly you cant be assuming that all of those un-uniformed women and children we found were lawful combatants or partisans? Thats laughable.

Ah yes, the holocaust denier syndrom. yawn
You didn't give any details, so I was just speculating about the possibilities.

Anyway.... Unless you can show that the Bosnians or Kosovars did NOT commit similar crimes, your reference to these civilian casualties is pointless.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
I find that claims like this that our commanders were 'hyping' us up on the evilness of the enemy com from two places:Hollywood, and people that have never served in combat.
Well, they did hype up ignorant GIs during other wars, so it sounds a bit surprising they didn't do it during the Yugoslavian war.

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
The difference being that in many cases the US soldiers were brought up on charges under the UCMJ, and the abuses of US soldiers are not done with the express consent of the higher command, whereas the Serbian top brass ordered their troops to rape, pilliage, and destroy as much of the Bosnian countryside as they could.
And you know this how?!?

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Originally Posted by EireEngineer View Post
Yes, bad things happen on both sides of a war, and this is largely unavoidable. However, when a people actively embrace the horrible aspects of war, and therefore encourage their soldiers to participate in reprehensible acts, that is the most unconscionable crime a society can do.
About a week ago, you mentioned the possibility of civil war between native Europeans and Muslem immigrants. Imagine this was broke out and these Muslems started randomly raping, pillaging and killing native European civilians. How do you think the native Europeans would react (assuming they still had the balls to react)? How would you react is your 17-year-old niece or sister was tortured, gang-raped and then killed?

I have no doubts that the Serbians commited horrible crimes, but to single them out as the perpetrators and the other sides as victims (like NATO and the mainstream media did) is just plain silly.

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Yes, propaganda certainly has occured in war since the invention of war. Put to assume that this means that every single time you hear an attrocity story, it is mear propeganda?
I'm not that naive. I'm just skeptical about attrocity stories since I'm aware of several historical cases of fabrication of such stories.

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That is ridiculous. How do you know the stories about American soldiers are true then, and not just merely propaganda?
I got one story of group rape by American GIs from a historical website glorifying the Belgian restistance during WW2. They have no reason whatsoever to portray the American GIs in a negative daylight, quite the contrary.

Are you seriously trying to justify it by this "percieved harm" argument? Ridiculous!

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No one said I was, but given the preponderance of evidence, it seems to me that the Serbs and the Bosnians did far worse things to each other (certainly with the Croats helping out) then we ever did to to them.
I was referring to the infamous NATO bombings.

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I am still not sure why you have such a problem with our involvement though?
As a Flemish nationalist, I support the Serbian cause and strongly object to NATO interference in favor of Kosovar independence (considering Kosovo is traditional Serbian land).
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  #89  
Old 11-16-2009, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

[quote=Out of the Box;62859]That, as well as my views on "democracy", multi-culturalism and Judaism.



No thanks. Maybe sometime in the future I'll more to Ireland, Scotland or Australia (these are the three countries culturally closest to my ancestrial culture), but for the time being this is no option. My funds are limited and my girlfriend is too attached to her family to move away from them at this point in time.

Where do you live at the moment? I understand your origins are in Ireland but you moved to the US, right?



You didn't give any details, so I was just speculating about the possibilities.

Anyway.... Unless you can show that the Bosnians or Kosovars did NOT commit similar crimes, your reference to these civilian casualties is pointless.
Quote:
Ah yes, the old logical fallacy of asking someone to prove a negative. What is this, amateur night?

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
Well, they did hype up ignorant GIs during other wars, so it sounds a bit surprising they didn't do it during the Yugoslavian war.
Well, first of all it wasnt much of a war, because nobody but the odd crazy wanted and actual fight. And secondly, no, there was no hype.

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And you know this how?!?
Ever hear of the Hague?

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Originally Posted by Out of the Box View Post
About a week ago, you mentioned the possibility of civil war between native Europeans and Muslem immigrants. Imagine this was broke out and these Muslems started randomly raping, pillaging and killing native European civilians. How do you think the native Europeans would react (assuming they still had the balls to react)? How would you react is your 17-year-old niece or sister was tortured, gang-raped and then killed?

I have no doubts that the Serbians commited horrible crimes, but to single them out as the perpetrators and the other sides as victims (like NATO and the mainstream media did) is just plain silly.
No, what is silly to assert that the Serbian motivation for their atrocities was reciprocity for those done by Bosnians. Where is your proof that the Bosnians did any such thing, since you are the one making the assertion?

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I'm not that naive. I'm just skeptical about attrocity stories since I'm aware of several historical cases of fabrication of such stories.
Being skeptical is one thing, but it seems that your first reaction is to deny any atrocity story unless it is the US or Russians involved. Need I remind you that the Belgians are directly responsible for one of the worst incidences of "ethnic cleansing" in the 20th century?

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I got one story of group rape by American GIs from a historical website glorifying the Belgian restistance during WW2. They have no reason whatsoever to portray the American GIs in a negative daylight, quite the contrary.

Are you seriously trying to justify it by this "percieved harm" argument? Ridiculous!
Yes, and what happened to those soldiers, out of curiosity?


I was referring to the infamous NATO bombings.



As a Flemish nationalist, I support the Serbian cause and strongly object to NATO interference in favor of Kosovar independence (considering Kosovo is traditional Serbian land).
And I am of the opinion that you forfeit such claims when you start a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
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  #90  
Old 11-16-2009, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!

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Ah yes, the old logical fallacy of asking someone to prove a negative.
Are you suggesting that the Bosnians and Kosovars did NOT kill Serbian civilians?

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Well, first of all it wasnt much of a war, because nobody but the odd crazy wanted and actual fight.
I guess NATO threw those bombs just for fun, then

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Ever hear of the Hague?
Since when are neo-Stalinist show trials proof of anything besides the hypocrisy of the capitalist West?

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No, what is silly to assert that the Serbian motivation for their atrocities was reciprocity for those done by Bosnians.
Here's a Serbian perspective on the entire issue, which seems closer to the truth than the NATO propaganda we're supposed to believe.

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Being skeptical is one thing, but it seems that your first reaction is to deny any atrocity story unless it is the US or Russians involved.
Wrong. I just distrust EU governments and especially the US government because they have a history of fabricating history.

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Yes, and what happened to those soldiers, out of curiosity?
I'm not aware of any actions taken against those soldiers. Back in 1945, raping, torturing or killing people who suspected of links with the Nazis one way or another was considered normal and many people got off the hook for the most extreme brutallities. In fact, the 1945 violence by civilians against those suspected of collaboration was quite large-scale and entered the Belgian history books as "the repression".

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And I am of the opinion that you forfeit such claims when you start a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
Why do you continue repeating that lame old NATO propaganda?



By the way, please check the layout of your previous post. It's a bit messed up.
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