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  #21  
Old 11-16-2009, 07:56 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)


>>the USAF found that the forecasts using the Appleman method were correct about 60 to 80 percent of the time. Looking more closely at the data, they found that when no contrails were forecast, the forecast was correct 98 percent of the time! However, when contrails were forecast to occur, the forecast was correct only 25 to 35 percent of the time, and often failed to predict the occurrence of contrails.

What does this mean exactly? It seems to suggest the chart is inaccurate.

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  #22  
Old 11-16-2009, 09:10 AM
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stompk stompk is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by albie View Post
>>the USAF found that the forecasts using the Appleman method were correct about 60 to 80 percent of the time. Looking more closely at the data, they found that when no contrails were forecast, the forecast was correct 98 percent of the time! However, when contrails were forecast to occur, the forecast was correct only 25 to 35 percent of the time, and often failed to predict the occurrence of contrails.

What does this mean exactly? It seems to suggest the chart is inaccurate.
Your starting to figure that out?

Ask yourselves this question. If you can see your breath at 20f, why does the Appleman Chart say it needs to be at least -45f?

It's not the moisture in your breath, it's CO2.
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2009, 10:46 AM
TrutherD TrutherD is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

stompk, There you go again teaching me things. I realize Appleman Chart does not deal with "natural" contrails but aircraft contrails. Although, I haven't really considered natural contrails for quite some time.

albie! You decided to join with some semi-rational thoughts and evidence. Congratulations on participating in the forum rather than just using it to baselessly attack others.
Quote:
It seems the appleman chart was made in the 50s and is outdated.
How long did you research? 5 minutes? The USAF and NASA still use it as a reference. It is 98% accurate in predicting NO contrails - so what's your problem? Do you think the laws of physics have changed since the 50's?
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But I am still going to try and debunk it further. Although why I bother is beyond me.
Why you bother is because you apparently care a lot about what we think on this subject. That much is apparent from your constant barrage of immature insults and baseless claims. The least you could do is have a rational conversation with us. Your one and two-line ramblings will have to do.
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The idea that all aircraft are sabotaged to poison people is brilliantly ridiculous. It would just involve too many people, all across the globe, in every country.
Yeah, 'cause that's never happened before. ie. the Manhattan Project. It's called compartmentalization. Plus they use predictive programming in the media, commercials, TV shows, billboard ads, movies (esp. kids movies), video games and web sites to teach us and our children that persistent and spreading contrails are normal. It's not all aircraft, it's military and/or civilian planes with spray nozzles or fuel additives.
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Here you go, look. I posted a link to this thread on the James Randi forum. Aren't I kind?
Thanks for the link, but "kind" would be showing that you aren't wasting our time and have done some actual research. You could provide a summary of the points in the link that you think relate to this thread, with due respect paid to what's already been discussed.
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The chart says contrails do exist in certain conditions. NOT that all contrails are impossible.
Persistent contrails that last longer than about a minute are impossible. Persistent contrails that form clouds or haze is impossible.
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So when I breathe out on a cold day and water vapour forms, that's a hologram?
Can you make a cloud with your breath or does it dissipate in harmony with the atmosphere? Can you make a persistent breath that lingers in the air longer than a minute? I thought not. stompk also makes an excellent point about seeing your breath in temperatures below the chart being caused by CO2, which is probably scientifically accurate.
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What does this mean exactly? It seems to suggest the chart is inaccurate.
Not at all. It is more accurate in one direction and it just so happens to be the direction we are focused on. It is an excellent chart for proving that contrails should not form. Whether they form or not, they should never persist longer than about a minute. Perhaps if you know a pilot who flew near the end of WW2 you might ask them about contrails.

You have jumped on your belief without doing any real research of your own and you show little respect for those you converse with. You should be grateful we tolerate your uneducated trollish ways at all.
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Last edited by TrutherD : 11-18-2009 at 03:44 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2009, 08:56 PM
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stompk stompk is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrutherD View Post
Can you make a cloud with your breath or does it dissipate in harmony with the atmosphere? Can you make a persistent breath that lingers in the air longer than a minute? I thought not. stompk also makes an excellent point about seeing your breath in temperatures below the chart being caused by CO2, which is scientifically accurate.
Yes, I think we need to extrapolate on this idea further. Unfortunately, it seems, science turns people off.

It's really one of the keys to folks understanding we are being duped. Patrick Minnis is a shill.
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2009, 06:18 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

It's not an accurate chart. So why are you using it to prove something? That seems pointless. Why do I not see a CO2 cloud everytime I breath out? Because temperature has something to do with it.

Prove that NASA still use this chart.

I think most of the people on this thread are confused about your findings.
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2009, 06:21 AM
albie albie is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

>>Can you make a cloud with your breath or does it dissipate in harmony with the atmosphere? Can you make a persistent breath that lingers in the air longer than a minute? I thought not. stompk also makes an excellent point about seeing your breath in temperatures below the chart being caused by CO2, which is scientifically accurate.


I don't travel at sonic speeds and don't live high up like planes do. Nor do I expel exhaust matter.

Wouldn't chemicals just dissipate anyway?
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  #27  
Old 11-17-2009, 06:39 AM
TrutherD TrutherD is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
It's not an accurate chart. So why are you using it to prove something? That seems pointless.
What's pointless is making statements about things we've already covered. It is 98% accurate in predicting NO contrails. Search YouTube for "chemtrails summer", or "chemtrails desert". Find some nice low-altitude trails. It's easy to see it's not cold nor humid enough to match the chart. Plus contrails don't last longer than about a minute in any condition. I don't know why I bother with you, you are an obvious paid troll ignoring what is easy to see with your own eyes.
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I don't travel at sonic speeds and don't live high up like planes do. Nor do I expel exhaust matter.
Then why did you compare jet contrails to your breath in the first place?
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Wouldn't chemicals just dissipate anyway?
The few contained in normal exhaust, yes. When large amounts of particulate matter are introduced, however, if there's enough humidity a cloud might be able to form. More likely is the "cloud" is just the particulate matter itself. Normal jet exhaust simply cannot create clouds. Clouds form at ground level in dirty air with high humidity. Extremely small particles in the sub-micron range act as condensation nuclei, attracting water vapor. You should check out the excellent documentaries Aerosol Crimes and Don't Talk About the Weather.
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Prove that NASA still use this chart.
The chart is from NASA and has been in use since it's creation. It has never been disproven. There is no such thing as "outdated", since the laws of physics do not change. Perhaps you might try exercising your brain: NASA appleman chart - Google Search
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Last edited by TrutherD : 11-17-2009 at 09:40 AM.
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  #28  
Old 11-17-2009, 10:00 AM
Alferd Alferd is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stompk View Post

Contrail formation has nothing to do with cold, but humidity, and pressure.
Temperature has everything to do with it. have you ever heard of the term "dew point?"


Quote:
The short lived contrails are Liquid CO2 for supercooling the atmosphere.
Don't be absurd. Jet engine exhast cannot possibly form liquid CO2.


Quote:
The long lived contrails are a concoction of silver-iodide, ammonia, urea, etc. The main reason is weather modification, the secondary being a sickening of the people. But, they do have a solution that will kill, which is being tested in the Ukraine right now.
Nonsense.
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  #29  
Old 11-17-2009, 10:02 AM
Alferd Alferd is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stompk View Post
Your starting to figure that out?

Ask yourselves this question. If you can see your breath at 20f, why does the Appleman Chart say it needs to be at least -45f?

It's not the moisture in your breath, it's CO2.
Don't be silly. It is not possible for liquid CO2 to form in the atmosphere.
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  #30  
Old 11-17-2009, 10:04 AM
Alferd Alferd is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrutherD View Post

Persistent contrails that last longer than about a minute are impossible. Persistent contrails that form clouds or haze is impossible.
Why?

At 30,000 feet, contrails consist of ice crystals. Clouds consist of ice crystals. the same processes that allow clouds to persist allow contrails to persist.
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