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#11
11-08-2009, 12:08 PM
 galexander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bucks, UK Posts: 405
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by EireEngineer Only because you are looking at it from an angle. Its anything but square. You cant possibly be serious.
Get real EireEngineer.

Looking from directly over-head you get exactly the same impression. Unfortunately I couldn't immediately find such an image on the internet.

Anyway you can see it quite clearly from an angle as well.

#12
11-08-2009, 02:21 PM
 EireEngineer Woo Nemesis Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Grapevine, Texas Posts: 583
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by galexander Get real EireEngineer. Looking from directly over-head you get exactly the same impression. Unfortunately I couldn't immediately find such an image on the internet. Anyway you can see it quite clearly from an angle as well.
Then you must truely suck at using google. It took me all of five seconds to find a overhead view, and i will concede the point that it is a very rounded square. However, you have to realize that the impact is not the only force at work there. The sides of the crater have erroded and collapsed over time, giving it a slightly more square shape.
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#13
11-09-2009, 11:41 AM
 galexander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bucks, UK Posts: 405
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by EireEngineer Then you must truely suck at using google. It took me all of five seconds to find a overhead view, and i will concede the point that it is a very rounded square. However, you have to realize that the impact is not the only force at work there. The sides of the crater have erroded and collapsed over time, giving it a slightly more square shape.
The next question is if its sides have eroded then why is the crater still so deep and its sides so precipitately steep?

And what is it about the soil/rock in the region that resistance to erosion is found in four directions?

Still an enigma for me.
#14
11-24-2009, 03:33 AM
 JazzRoc Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: El Medano, Tenerife, Canary Isles Posts: 104
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

if Work Done is actually equal to Force x Time

IT ISN'T
#15
11-25-2009, 12:01 PM
 galexander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bucks, UK Posts: 405
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JazzRoc if Work Done is actually equal to Force x Time IT ISN'T
#16
11-25-2009, 02:56 PM
 JazzRoc Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: El Medano, Tenerife, Canary Isles Posts: 104
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by galexander Please explain your logic JazzRoc.
Work done is NOT equivalent to FORCE times TIME. I reckon it's FORCE times DISTANCE.

A rock rests on a flat plain on the surface of a gravitational body - say the Earth. It exerts a force on the plain - and the plain exerts a force on it, and nothing goes anywhere.

No work is being done on anything. But time is still passing....... and the force still pressing......

Work is only done when a force moves a mass some distance (lifting the rock off the plain against the gravitational acceleration). Or when a force accelerates a specified mass for a period of time. Acceleration involves a length dimension.

Therefore "Work" involves a length dimension. Distance.

I don't think that much in physics theory these days. I hope you understand what I write here. I knew you weren't correct here but to my astonishment I initially found it difficult to enunciate why.

Last edited by JazzRoc : 11-25-2009 at 03:16 PM.
#17
11-26-2009, 12:20 PM
 galexander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bucks, UK Posts: 405
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JazzRoc Work done is NOT equivalent to FORCE times TIME. I reckon it's FORCE times DISTANCE. A rock rests on a flat plain on the surface of a gravitational body - say the Earth. It exerts a force on the plain - and the plain exerts a force on it, and nothing goes anywhere. No work is being done on anything. But time is still passing....... and the force still pressing...... Work is only done when a force moves a mass some distance (lifting the rock off the plain against the gravitational acceleration). Or when a force accelerates a specified mass for a period of time. Acceleration involves a length dimension. Therefore "Work" involves a length dimension. Distance. I don't think that much in physics theory these days. I hope you understand what I write here. I knew you weren't correct here but to my astonishment I initially found it difficult to enunciate why.
Okay JazzRoc if work is not being done by the solidity of the Earth's surface against the solid rock then what about the following example?

Try holding a heavy sack of potatoes at arms length with just the one arm held horizontally. Hard WORK isn't it? And yet according to your logic no work is being done because the sack is stationary!
#18
11-26-2009, 01:18 PM
 JazzRoc Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: El Medano, Tenerife, Canary Isles Posts: 104
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by galexander Okay JazzRoc if work is not being done by the solidity of the Earth's surface against the solid rock then what about the following example? Try holding a heavy sack of potatoes at arms length with just the one arm held horizontally. Hard WORK isn't it? And yet according to your logic no work is being done because the sack is stationary!
Ah. I see where you're coming from.

Of course it's work for a human arm. A constant stream of work is being done maintaining muscular tension. That you might call STRAIN. But muscles work by electrochemical pressure, and their electrical "circuits" are very lossy. A constant stream of ATP (the body's gasoline) is required to maintain each muscular fibre's position. It gets "burnt" to lactic acid which is flushed to the kidneys.

But consider a rock on a plain on the Moon.

An old BIG rock which might have whacked down in an aftermath of an early asteroid strike and would have sat there for a million years. Straining. Consuming nothing. You need to understand the difference between plasticity and elasticity as well, by the sound of it.

Has it done a virtually infinite amount of work?

Or the Earth? The whole of it is in strain searching to fall to the centre. An almost infinite amount of work?

No. Work is done raising up a weight up using a pulley. Or the same amount of work done when it is released and falls back to where it was lifted from. Technically described as accelerating a mass over a period of time, and thus involving the dimension of length. In free fall the acceleration will be the local gravitational constant for the gravitational body. The product of the particular mass of that body, the acceleration, and the distance travelled will determine the work done.

In deep space, the acceleration will be determined by the mass divided by the force. The work done (say by a rocket engine) would then be the mass times times acceleration times distance the rocket engine works over.

Get your head round it. Pick up a schoolbook on mechanics and read and understand it.

Again I had to re-edit my work: I really must pick up a physics book again.

Last edited by JazzRoc : 11-26-2009 at 02:08 PM.
#19
11-28-2009, 12:13 PM
 galexander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bucks, UK Posts: 405
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JazzRoc Ah. I see where you're coming from. Of course it's work for a human arm. A constant stream of work is being done maintaining muscular tension. That you might call STRAIN. But muscles work by electrochemical pressure, and their electrical "circuits" are very lossy. A constant stream of ATP (the body's gasoline) is required to maintain each muscular fibre's position. It gets "burnt" to lactic acid which is flushed to the kidneys. But consider a rock on a plain on the Moon. An old BIG rock which might have whacked down in an aftermath of an early asteroid strike and would have sat there for a million years. Straining. Consuming nothing. You need to understand the difference between plasticity and elasticity as well, by the sound of it. Has it done a virtually infinite amount of work? Or the Earth? The whole of it is in strain searching to fall to the centre. An almost infinite amount of work? No. Work is done raising up a weight up using a pulley. Or the same amount of work done when it is released and falls back to where it was lifted from. Technically described as accelerating a mass over a period of time, and thus involving the dimension of length. In free fall the acceleration will be the local gravitational constant for the gravitational body. The product of the particular mass of that body, the acceleration, and the distance travelled will determine the work done. In deep space, the acceleration will be determined by the mass divided by the force. The work done (say by a rocket engine) would then be the mass times times acceleration times distance the rocket engine works over. Get your head round it. Pick up a schoolbook on mechanics and read and understand it. Again I had to re-edit my work: I really must pick up a physics book again.
Why does a gravitating body ONLY do work on an object when it is moving? The gravitational field is there all the time.

Forget about nerves and ATP, consider the following example. I am on a steep hill in my car and I take the handbrake off. Instead of rolling back down the hill I have my clutch part way out and the accelerator pedal slightly depressed. The revs of the engine combined with clutch control stops the vehicle rolling back down the hill. The car engine is therefore doing work but yet the car is not moving. How is this possible?

Going back to the example of the rock sat on the surface of the Moon, on a quantum level you could indeed consider that the gravitational field was doing work on the stationary rock. Between atoms there is mainly space and what stops the atoms of the rock and the lunar surface combining in the gravitational field is an electrostatic repulsion in the other direction. This electrostatic repulsion is continuous and therefore the electric charges in the atom are continually doing work.
#20
11-28-2009, 12:49 PM
 galexander Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bucks, UK Posts: 405
Re: Are the Laws of Physics Wrong?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JazzRoc Get your head round it. Pick up a schoolbook on mechanics and read and understand it. Again I had to re-edit my work: I really must pick up a physics book again.
You're the one JazzRoc that needs to do the reading. I suggest you carefully re-read my original post, specifically the example of the two men pulling the two different weights.

Read carefully, understand it and get your head round it.

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