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  #181  
Old 03-30-2010, 06:14 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)


BlueAngel said:

I have not added a new batch of consequences with any ignorant misinformation as I have not written any IGNORANT misinformation.
However, kindly inform me as to what a "new bath of consequences" would be.


JazzRoc said:

Of course you have. You are saying aviation is harmful when it isn't. The social consequences of millions of "chicken littles" (by "Chemtrails" - non-existent "are nothing more than weather modification" - non-existent - you declare yourself to be one) are potentially HUGE. No good consequences here.

----------------------------------------------------------

I never said that which you say I have.

Therefore, you are lieing.

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  #182  
Old 03-30-2010, 06:17 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzRoc View Post
"Unfortunately very little is known about the results of these experiments other than the fact that 9 storms were seeded."
That's about one "storm" per year? What size "storm" might that be? Weather? You joke with me.
Cloud-seeding is and has been regularly undertaken in the midwest US for sixty years now. It is used to prevent large storms from building (by causing them to precipitate sooner than they otherwise would). This limits the hailstone size to that not large enough to damage crops. It's BIG BUSINESS and also a jolly good thing to do.
But is it weather modification?
Of course it ******* isn't.
"Weather" is what you get on your TV. You know, THE BIG STUFF - cyclones, anticyclones, fronts, winds, jetstreams, temperatures, precipitations..

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation. You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now.
That was one bit of information.

There's plenty more available regarding cloud-seeding.

Do a search and than re-calculate.

Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification.

If cloud seeding changes the weather.

It modifies it.

Just the same as spewing water from the back of jets on a clear day can cause changes in the atmosphere and hence, modify the weather, by producing water vapour clouds.

Just look at the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying in criss-cross patterns.

Soon, the long white streaks fan out into thin, but wide, white clouds.

Take note as to what type of weather follows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the atmosphere, condensation produces clouds, fog and precipitation (usually only when facilitated by cloud condensation nuclei). The dew point of an air parcel is the temperature to which it must cool before water vapor in the air begins to condense.

Water vapor or water vapour (see spelling differences), also aqueous vapor, is the gas phase of water. Water vapor is one state of water within the hydrosphere. Water vapor can be produced from the evaporation of boiling liquid water or from the sublimation of ice. Under typical atmospheric conditions, water vapor is continuously generated by evaporation and removed by condensation. Water vapour is lighter than air and triggers convection currents that can lead to clouds. Water vapor is a greenhouse gas along with other gases such as carbon dioxide and methane.

Last edited by BlueAngel : 03-30-2010 at 06:33 PM.
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  #183  
Old 03-30-2010, 06:36 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

JazzRoc said:

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am doing no such thing; however you are and, therefore, I suggest that you stop accusing me of what you are doing.

You also said the following and it is such BS:

"You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now."
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  #184  
Old 03-30-2010, 06:40 PM
JazzRoc JazzRoc is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

"That was one bit of information. There's plenty more. Do a search and than re-calculate."
You are making a category error and thus missing the point. It makes no difference how many examples of cloud-seeding you take (I think there are hundreds at present) they will NEVER have a significant effect on the WEATHER. read THE THREAD.

"Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification."
Misinformation. Have you EVER heard mention of their consequences in a weather forecast? Has there therefore been a conspiracy to conceal these consequences?

"If cloud seeding changes the weather. It modifies it. Duh!"
Cloud-seeding modifies CLOUDS. That's why it's called cloud-seeding. And why your TV Weather program isn't called "TV Clouds".

How little DO you understand about the Earth on which you live?
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  #185  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:21 PM
JazzRoc JazzRoc is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Just the same as spewing water from the back of jets on a clear day can cause changes in the atmosphere and hence, modify the weather, by producing water vapour clouds.
NO THEY DON'T. The largest change in insolation ever measured (measuring a sky overcast by trails) involved less than a 2% change. But you lose the blue, of course.

Just look at the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying in criss-cross patterns.
Routes cross each other, and you are a simpleton. The stratosphere travels in a different direction from your prevailing wind, has an average speed of 50+mph. Crossing shuttle routes will produce a "grid" if the stratospheric layers they pass through approach saturation with water vapor. You cannot SEE the stratosphere, wet or dry. Grids can be made over your horizon and yet arrive overhead an hour or two later.

Soon, the long white streaks fan out into thin, but wide, white clouds.
All made out of 99.9994% pure water...

Take note as to what type of weather follows.
Watch my T-shirt: the persistent spreading contrail starts by being entrained in the aircraft's wing vortices. These are angled shallowly downwards such that by the time they have stopped spinning the trail is 200 miles behind and a thousand feet beneath the aircraft. Each vortex loop forms a serration in the trail up to two thousand feet deep. Each serration is actually cone-shaped, with a centre of larger ice particles falling fastest. The faster they fall, the faster they accrete ice, so it is a form of instability.
Normally before this happens the saturated layer has ceased to be the ambient layer, and the ice starts to evaporate again. If it makes it down through the tropopause then it will evaporate as it falls through the ever-warming air. This gives you the high leaden overcast - for it is usually at a certain narrow band of altitude (and temperature) everywhere that the ice particulates have finally sublimed to nothing. At that point, by the way, the seed particulates (soot and acids) are released for, in effect, re-use.
If layers have a LATERAL motion then a contrail will SHEAR in a cirrus-like manner - because, technically it IS a cirrus cloud, its only distinction being that of possessing a slightly-different granularity - of ICE.

Water vapor is an invisible GAS. When you observe a boiling kettle, the INVISIBLE gas emitted is water vapor. Further from the spout, where the "steam" is visible, it ISN'T "steam", but droplets of water suspended in air. A cloud.

There is no such thing as a "water vapor cloud". Water vapor IS steam. Steam at 1100C is 27.6% of a modern turbofan engine exhaust by weight.

Last edited by JazzRoc : 03-30-2010 at 08:06 PM.
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  #186  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:23 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzRoc View Post
"That was one bit of information. There's plenty more. Do a search and than re-calculate."
You are making a category error and thus missing the point. It makes no difference how many examples of cloud-seeding you take (I think there are hundreds at present) they will NEVER have a significant effect on the WEATHER. read THE THREAD.

"Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification."
Misinformation. Have you EVER heard mention of their consequences in a weather forecast? Has there therefore been a conspiracy to conceal these consequences?

"If cloud seeding changes the weather. It modifies it. Duh!"
Cloud-seeding modifies CLOUDS. That's why it's called cloud-seeding. And why your TV Weather program isn't called "TV Clouds".

How little DO you understand about the Earth on which you live?
According to what you have written on this thread, I am under the impression that you know very little about this topic and the earth on which you live.

You continue to contradict yourself.

Cloud seeding modifies the weather, just as creating water vapour clouds modifies the weather.

Clouds are a vital source for weather on Earth and without them weather would not exist.

Ah, I never said cloud-seeding was a conspiracy.

You would be wise to discontinue attributing comments to me that I have not written.

In other words, making-up things that I have not said (i.e., lieing).

Last edited by BlueAngel : 03-30-2010 at 07:29 PM.
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  #187  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:31 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzRoc View Post
How would my above statement render me a moron?
I have already closed this subject. Combustion water leaving the exhausts of a modern civil transport aircraft can precipitate TEN THOUSAND times its weight of ice out of a supersaturated stratospheric layer. Thus the 180-ton fuel load of a transcontinental jumbo may be transformed into 1,800,000 tons of stratospheric ice.
I don't believe this has sunk in yet. Such a LONG, LONG time to appreciate this amount of ice suggests idiocy.

Spewing water from planes into the atmosphere causes weather changes and, if it is being done for this purpose, it would be referred to as weather modification.
It ISN'T done for this purpose, and at 3.5% ITS EFFECT ON GLOBAL WEATHER is statistically insignificant. It's in the thread.

If it is not for weather modification, kindly inform the forum what the other reason would be for spewing 99.9% water from the back of planes and what comprises the other one percent?
The other NOUGHT POINT NOUGHT ONE PERCENT? (You got it wrong! But actually I had rounded UP the amount.) The correct figure (when the biggest trails are deposited) will be 99.9994% PURE WATER. (That's probably better than your local tap water!)
The residual proportion (0.0006%) will be oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, only partially-burnt hydrocarbons, and soot. It's in the thread.

Obviously, weather is modified in other ways. We are aware of these natural causes.
I doubt it. There is NO SUCH THING AS WEATHER MODIFICATION. CLOUD SEEDING ISN'T WEATHER MODIFICATION.

however, spewing water from the back of planes, unless for some other reason than weather modification is not a natural cause.
Are you natural? I am. I have been an aircraft and gas turbine designer, quite naturally. Is kerosine natural? Yes. Are contrails natural (being made by naturally-existing machines made by naturally-existing people)? Of course they ******* are. They are certainly NOT supernatural. Man is natural. Man is a natural organizer of Nature. Science is the measure of Nature - which includes Man.
To hark back to "the good old days" is a severe mistake which brings one of the worst vices - irresponsibility - in its wake. Man needs to travel right now in order to improvise his way out of the situation he finds himself in. Situation management is a human skill. The more social movement and interaction (both required) the better, don't you think?

And, even if it were for some other reason, the effect would still involve modification of the weather.
It will take another forty years for aviation, expanding as it was a few years back, to significantly affect the weather. (I have already given you the science on this). At present the weather is NOT SIGNIFICANTLY MODIFIED. Mathematically, scientifically, SENSIBLY. Due to the future constriction in fossil fuel supplies* there is good reason to suppose that ALL aviation will level off (by 2030) to an amount which has NO significant effect on the Earth's atmosphere. Especially compared with power stations, industry, farting animals. rotting tundra, and active volcanoes (which total 11,500). *Which is a pity, for kerosine is almost a perfect fuel - though something non-poisonous and almost non-flammable would be better.

Incorrect word usage on my part. Obviously, the military and goverment can spray whatever chemicals they want from jets, but, in this instance, IMO, they DO NOT in lieu of CANNOT.
Fair doos.

I'm right, but it is not due to default.
Of course it is, if you have read and understood what I have already written in this thread. WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T.

I have not added a new batch of consequences with any ignorant misinformation as I have not written any IGNORANT misinformation. However, kindly inform me as to what a "new bath of consequences" would be.
Of course you have. You are saying aviation is harmful when it isn't. The social consequences of millions of "chicken littles" (by "Chemtrails" - non-existent "are nothing more than weather modification" - non-existent - you declare yourself to be one) are potentially HUGE. No good consequences here.

Your comment above is wrong and there isn't any need to refer to people on this forum as morons.
You have had long enough time to read and understand the science behind this. If you keep on making antiscientific and antisocial statements about aviation, what else are you? If you don't understand what I'm talking about, ask me. Don't keep on making the same false assertion.

We could say the same about you, but we don't.
Well, you couldn't, could you?
You haven't elaborately prepared a scientific argument for me to misunderstand and prattle rubbish about.
It's the other way round, n'est-ce pas?
Non-scientists so misunderstand science as to believe it is arguable. It isn't.
You either understand it, or you are TOTALLY WRONG.
People that persist in making false assertions after having been confronted with the truth (for AGES) ARE morons. We can all be one, and we can all STOP being one.
QUOTE!
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  #188  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:32 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzRoc View Post
"Unfortunately very little is known about the results of these experiments other than the fact that 9 storms were seeded."
That's about one "storm" per year? What size "storm" might that be? Weather? You joke with me.
Cloud-seeding is and has been regularly undertaken in the midwest US for sixty years now. It is used to prevent large storms from building (by causing them to precipitate sooner than they otherwise would). This limits the hailstone size to that not large enough to damage crops. It's BIG BUSINESS and also a jolly good thing to do.
But is it weather modification?
Of course it ******* isn't.
"Weather" is what you get on your TV. You know, THE BIG STUFF - cyclones, anticyclones, fronts, winds, jetstreams, temperatures, precipitations (and you'll note that cloudseeding changes the NATURE of precipitation, not the AMOUNT)..

It is what YOU are doing that is misinformation. You are confabulating "cloud-seeding" with "weather modification" in an unscientific and antisocial manner right now.
QUOTE!
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  #189  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:33 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,799
Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzRoc View Post
"That was one bit of information. There's plenty more. Do a search and than re-calculate."
You are making a category error and thus missing the point. It makes no difference how many examples of cloud-seeding you take (I think there are hundreds at present) they will NEVER have a significant effect on the WEATHER. read THE THREAD.

"Your example of cloud-seeding in the midwest would be weather modification."
Misinformation. Have you EVER heard mention of their consequences in a weather forecast? Has there therefore been a conspiracy to conceal these consequences?

"If cloud seeding changes the weather. It modifies it. Duh!"
Cloud-seeding modifies CLOUDS. That's why it's called cloud-seeding. And why your TV Weather program isn't called "TV Clouds".

How little DO you understand about the Earth on which you live?
QUOTE!
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  #190  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:34 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,799
Default Re: Contrails cannot form into clouds (proof!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzRoc View Post
Just the same as spewing water from the back of jets on a clear day can cause changes in the atmosphere and hence, modify the weather, by producing water vapour clouds.
NO THEY DON'T. The largest change in insolation ever measured (measuring a sky overcast by trails) involved less than a 2% change. But you lose the blue, of course.

Just look at the sky on a clear day when the jets are out spraying in criss-cross patterns.
Routes cross each other, and you are a simpleton. The stratosphere travels in a different direction from your prevailing wind, has an average speed of 50+mph. Crossing shuttle routes will produce a "grid" if the stratospheric layers they pass through approach saturation with water vapor. You cannot SEE the stratosphere, wet or dry. Grids can be made over your horizon and yet arrive overhead an hour or two later.

Soon, the long white streaks fan out into thin, but wide, white clouds.
All made out of 99.9994% pure water...

Take note as to what type of weather follows.
Watch my T-shirt: the persistent spreading contrail starts by being entrained in the aircraft's wing vortices. These are angled shallowly downwards such that by the time they have stopped spinning the trail is 200 miles behind and a thousand feet beneath the aircraft. Each vortex loop forms a serration in the trail up to two thousand feet deep. Each serration is actually cone-shaped, with a centre of larger ice particles falling fastest. The faster they fall, the faster they accrete ice, so it is a form of instability.
Normally before this happens the saturated layer has ceased to be the ambient layer, and the ice starts to evaporate again. If it makes it down through the tropopause then it will evaporate as it falls through the ever-warming air. This gives you the high leaden overcast.
If layers have a LATERAL motion then a contrail will SHEAR in a cirrus-like manner - because, technically it IS a cirrus cloud, its only distinction being that of possessing a slightly-different granularity - of ICE.
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