Go Back   Club Conspiracy Forums > General Conspiracy Discussion > Science
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-22-2010, 12:10 PM
galexander galexander is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 405
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy


Quote:
Originally Posted by jane doe View Post
your behavior is funny and entertaining.....well done 'in deed'.
This might just be a set-up but has someone just been caught using Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)?

'In deed'.

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-22-2010, 12:19 PM
galexander galexander is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 405
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallaciesAbound View Post
Do you even bother to research a little to see if the question you asked can already be satisfactorily answered? I did explain where the energy comes from, but you missed it somehow. So.....

"The cohesive forces among the liquid molecules are responsible for this phenomenon of surface tension. In the bulk of the liquid, each molecule is pulled equally in every direction by neighboring liquid molecules, resulting in a net force of zero.The molecules at the surface do not have other like molecules on all sides of them and consequently they cohere more strongly to those directly associated with them on the surface. This attraction between molecules forms a surface "film" which makes it more difficult to move an object through the surface than to move it when it is completely submerged."
"
Surface tension pulls the liquid column up until there is a sufficient mass of liquid for gravitational forces to overcome the intermolecular forces."


It is surface tension that causes the liquid to draw up the tube. There may be a way to harness this energy in some way, but it is a very tiny force which is only cabable of moving a few milliliters of water a few centimeters. IT does not seem likely that this will ever comprise any substantial power source.

As for your reservoir idea of energy....it doesnt really work that way with gravitation. Imagine I throw a baseball at a target. Chemical energy in my muscles is converted into kinetic energy to move my arm, and some of this energy is transferred to the ball. As the ball travels through the air, some of the energy is also transfered in the form of friction. Ultimately the ball strikes the target, and the original chemical energy has been converted to kinetic. This is where you are getting your "reservoir" idea, and it is perfectly accurate in this arena.

Gravity works a little differently. All matter distorts the fabric of spacetime and attracts all other matter. What determines the strength of the attraction is the mass of the objects and the distance between them. There is no conversion of energy really, so there is no "reservoir" to be depleted. Every atom of matter in the universe is constantly attracting every other bit of matter in the universe, simultaneously. This attraction causes an acceleration as two objects get closer and the force of gravity increases. This causes an apparent increase in the kinetic energy of the objects, but this is coming from the attraction itself and not the conversion of energy from one type to another. Since gravitational attraction is an essential property of all matter, there is no reservoir to drain or account for.
A large oak tree uses capillary action to daily raise gallons of water to its leaves and yet the tree expends no energy at all in lifting this weight.

You say the energy comes from surface tension and attraction between molecules (which is self-evident) but the point is where does this energy come from if conservation is to apply?

The simple logic is therefore that this energy must come from a 'reservoir'.

You say gravity is curved spacetime but please don't forget this is just a theory which not necessarily everyone agrees with.

If there is no 'reservoir' from which the energy comes from in the case of gravity, doesn't this prove that free energy exists?

Q.E.D.?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:38 PM
FallaciesAbound FallaciesAbound is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Ah, so you are one of those that confuses "Just a theory" with "Just a hypothesis". I used to be one of those.

Actually, trees dont use capillary action to raise the water from root to leaf. This would be quite impossible, since the highest you can go with capillary action is about 30 ft. Trees use a combination of hydrostatic pressure and osmotic interchange to move the water up.

As for what creates the surface tension which drives capillary action, you should have simply googled intermolecular attraction.

London dispersion forces (Instantaneous dipole/ induced dipole)

Main article: London dispersion force
The London dispersion force otherwise known as quantum induced instantaneous polarization (one of the three types of van der Waals forces) is caused by instantaneous changes in the dipole of atoms, caused by the location of the electrons in the atoms' orbitals. The probability of an electron in an atom is given by the Schrödinger equation. When an electron is on one side of the nucleus, this side becomes slightly negative (indicated by δ-); this in turn repels electrons in neighbouring atoms, making these regions slightly positive (δ+). This induced dipole causes a brief electrostatic attraction between the two molecules. The electron immediately moves to another point and the electrostatic attraction is broken..
London Dispersion forces are typically very weak (see the comparison below) because the attractions are so quickly broken, and the charges involved are so small.[1]
[edit] Dipole-Dipole Interactions

Dipole-Dipole interactions, also called Keesom interactions after Willem Hendrik Keesom, are caused by permanent dipoles in molecules. When one atom is covalently bonded to another with a significantly different electronegativity, the electronegative atom draws the electrons in the bond nearer to itself, becoming slightly negative. Conversely, the other atom becomes slightly positive. Electrostatic forces are generated between the opposing charges and the molecules align themselves to increase the attraction (reducing potential energy).
An example of dipole-dipole interactions can be seen in hydrogen chloride:

This is not an example of hydrogen bonding (see below) because the chlorine atom is not electronegative enough.
Note that almost always the dipole-dipole interaction between two atoms is zero, because atoms rarely carry a permanent dipole, see atomic dipoles.
Often, molecules can have dipoles within them, but have no overall dipole moment. This occurs if there is symmetry within the molecule, causing the dipoles to cancel each other out. This occurs in molecules such as tetrachloromethane.
[edit] Hydrogen bonding

Main article: Hydrogen bond
Hydrogen bonds are a stronger form of dipole-dipole interactions, caused by highly electronegative atoms. They only occur between hydrogen and oxygen, fluorine or nitrogen,[2] and are the strongest intermolecular force. The high electronegativities of F, O and N create highly polar bonds with hydrogen, which leads to strong bonding between hydrogen atoms on one molecule and the lone pairs of F, O or N atoms on adjacent molecules. The high boiling point of water is an effect of the extensive hydrogen bonding between the molecules:

For quite some time it was believed that hydrogen bonding required an explanation that was different from the other intermolecular interactions. However, reliable computer calculations that became possible during the 1980s have shown that only the four effects listed above play a role, with the dipole-dipole interaction being particularly important. Since the four effects account completely for the bonding in small dimers like the water dimer, for which highly accurate calculations are feasible, it is now generally believed that no other bonding effects are operative.[citation needed]
Hydrogen bonds are found throughout nature. In water the dynamics of these bonds produce unique properties essential to all known life-forms. Hydrogen bonds, between hydrogen atoms and nitrogen atoms, of adjacent DNA base pairs generate intermolecular forces that improve binding between the strands of the molecule. Hydrophobic effects between the double-stranded DNA and the solute nucleoplasm prevail in sustaining the double-helix structure of DNA.

As for gravity, sure, you can certainly glean some energy by properly utilizing it. Hydro-electric dams for starters. But remember, the energy from those comes from the sun ultimately. Hopefully you can see how.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:11 PM
galexander galexander is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 405
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallaciesAbound View Post
Ah, so you are one of those that confuses "Just a theory" with "Just a hypothesis". I used to be one of those.

Actually, trees dont use capillary action to raise the water from root to leaf. This would be quite impossible, since the highest you can go with capillary action is about 30 ft. Trees use a combination of hydrostatic pressure and osmotic interchange to move the water up.

As for what creates the surface tension which drives capillary action, you should have simply googled intermolecular attraction.

London dispersion forces (Instantaneous dipole/ induced dipole)

Main article: London dispersion force
The London dispersion force otherwise known as quantum induced instantaneous polarization (one of the three types of van der Waals forces) is caused by instantaneous changes in the dipole of atoms, caused by the location of the electrons in the atoms' orbitals. The probability of an electron in an atom is given by the Schrödinger equation. When an electron is on one side of the nucleus, this side becomes slightly negative (indicated by δ-); this in turn repels electrons in neighbouring atoms, making these regions slightly positive (δ+). This induced dipole causes a brief electrostatic attraction between the two molecules. The electron immediately moves to another point and the electrostatic attraction is broken..
London Dispersion forces are typically very weak (see the comparison below) because the attractions are so quickly broken, and the charges involved are so small.[1]
[edit] Dipole-Dipole Interactions

Dipole-Dipole interactions, also called Keesom interactions after Willem Hendrik Keesom, are caused by permanent dipoles in molecules. When one atom is covalently bonded to another with a significantly different electronegativity, the electronegative atom draws the electrons in the bond nearer to itself, becoming slightly negative. Conversely, the other atom becomes slightly positive. Electrostatic forces are generated between the opposing charges and the molecules align themselves to increase the attraction (reducing potential energy).
An example of dipole-dipole interactions can be seen in hydrogen chloride:

This is not an example of hydrogen bonding (see below) because the chlorine atom is not electronegative enough.
Note that almost always the dipole-dipole interaction between two atoms is zero, because atoms rarely carry a permanent dipole, see atomic dipoles.
Often, molecules can have dipoles within them, but have no overall dipole moment. This occurs if there is symmetry within the molecule, causing the dipoles to cancel each other out. This occurs in molecules such as tetrachloromethane.
[edit] Hydrogen bonding

Main article: Hydrogen bond
Hydrogen bonds are a stronger form of dipole-dipole interactions, caused by highly electronegative atoms. They only occur between hydrogen and oxygen, fluorine or nitrogen,[2] and are the strongest intermolecular force. The high electronegativities of F, O and N create highly polar bonds with hydrogen, which leads to strong bonding between hydrogen atoms on one molecule and the lone pairs of F, O or N atoms on adjacent molecules. The high boiling point of water is an effect of the extensive hydrogen bonding between the molecules:

For quite some time it was believed that hydrogen bonding required an explanation that was different from the other intermolecular interactions. However, reliable computer calculations that became possible during the 1980s have shown that only the four effects listed above play a role, with the dipole-dipole interaction being particularly important. Since the four effects account completely for the bonding in small dimers like the water dimer, for which highly accurate calculations are feasible, it is now generally believed that no other bonding effects are operative.[citation needed]
Hydrogen bonds are found throughout nature. In water the dynamics of these bonds produce unique properties essential to all known life-forms. Hydrogen bonds, between hydrogen atoms and nitrogen atoms, of adjacent DNA base pairs generate intermolecular forces that improve binding between the strands of the molecule. Hydrophobic effects between the double-stranded DNA and the solute nucleoplasm prevail in sustaining the double-helix structure of DNA.

As for gravity, sure, you can certainly glean some energy by properly utilizing it. Hydro-electric dams for starters. But remember, the energy from those comes from the sun ultimately. Hopefully you can see how.
Thank you for blinding us with scientific detail once more.

However you forgot to tell us where the energy ultimately comes from on a molecular level for the Law of Conservation of Energy to apply.

If you can't then the energy must be 'free'.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:58 PM
FallaciesAbound FallaciesAbound is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 125
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
Thank you for blinding us with scientific detail once more.

However you forgot to tell us where the energy ultimately comes from on a molecular level for the Law of Conservation of Energy to apply.

If you can't then the energy must be 'free'.
Actually, I did. I am sorry, but if you cant read a few paragraphs, you will never understand complex ideas. THe simple, and wildly incomplete answer is, that it is the asymmetrical intermolecular attraction that occurs at the surface of the liquid. In water, the hydrogen atoms are always trying to bond to the oxygen atoms in other molecules. Because it is already firmly bonded to its own oxygen molecule, there is not enough energy to actually bond, but there is enough for a fairly strong attractive force to exist. Your definition of "free" energy seems to me to be a bit skewed. As I said, you could theoretically use this as a very small energy source (ever put a drop of soap on a toothpick and watch it move on the surface of calm water?) but that is about the only application for it.

Hope that was simple enough for you.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:04 PM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,799
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
This might just be a set-up but has someone just been caught using Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)?

'In deed'.
Please elaborate further, Gale, if you can, as to why you consider Jane Doe's use of the words "in deed" as Neuro-Linquistic Programming and what problem this presents for you, if you do, "in deed" have a problem with it.

Last edited by BlueAngel : 07-23-2010 at 09:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-24-2010, 03:59 AM
galexander galexander is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 405
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAngel View Post
Please elaborate further, Gale, if you can, as to why you consider Jane Doe's use of the words "in deed" as Neuro-Linquistic Programming and what problem this presents for you, if you do, "in deed" have a problem with it.
You're the one who claims to be a victim of mind control and Neuro-Linguistic Programming, not me.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-24-2010, 04:01 AM
galexander galexander is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 405
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallaciesAbound View Post
Actually, I did. I am sorry, but if you cant read a few paragraphs, you will never understand complex ideas. THe simple, and wildly incomplete answer is, that it is the asymmetrical intermolecular attraction that occurs at the surface of the liquid. In water, the hydrogen atoms are always trying to bond to the oxygen atoms in other molecules. Because it is already firmly bonded to its own oxygen molecule, there is not enough energy to actually bond, but there is enough for a fairly strong attractive force to exist. Your definition of "free" energy seems to me to be a bit skewed. As I said, you could theoretically use this as a very small energy source (ever put a drop of soap on a toothpick and watch it move on the surface of calm water?) but that is about the only application for it.

Hope that was simple enough for you.
I strongly detect that you are attempting to hide behind a cloud of scientific obscurity.

I put the question to you again: does capillary action drain these molecules of energy causing them to measurably cool for example?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-24-2010, 11:26 AM
BlueAngel BlueAngel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,799
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by galexander View Post
You're the one who claims to be a victim of mind control and Neuro-Linguistic Programming, not me.
I asked YOU a question, GALE, about a statement YOU made and not about any statement you claim I have made regarding NLP.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-25-2010, 04:07 AM
galexander galexander is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bucks, UK
Posts: 405
Default Re: Official Silence About Free Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAngel View Post
I asked YOU a question, GALE, about a statement YOU made and not about any statement you claim I have made regarding NLP.
Doesn't the very fact that you keep repeating "in deed" give the game away?

You obviously think its a joke as well.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.