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  #21  
Old 05-12-2005, 07:29 AM
nakedsnake nakedsnake is offline
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Default Draken and Ahmad...


Draken,
I don't have an interpretation of Christianity I just choose to take what is written in the New testament in it's proper context. as far as any "Christians" condemning me I don't worry because they haven't risen from the dead.
They lack authority.
I read your responses to my posts and it's easy to see where you stand, subjective scripture interpretation, esoteric spiritual meanings of verses, lack of foundation, knowing good from evil, being just like God.
That's what Eve was offered in the garden.
I understand what you mean, and I also understand that it is intellectually dishonest as it divorces the objective and makes it subjective.
You remind me of Pilate, What is truth?

Ahmad,
You go again into the usual monologue based on Quramic theology, but the problem is the evidence for the reliability of the New testament as far as being a historical document is unparalleled. So the Quran says the Christian scriptures were changed but historical verification does not back up the claims of the Quran, was that shatan also?
the Quran says Jesus did not rise from the dead, but the eyewitnesses say he did, let's see eyewitnesses or Quran which came 500 years later? which was delivered by an angel who Mohammed initially thought was a Jin (demon).
I'll go with the eyewitnesses, the Quran has nothing to back up it's claims it flies in the face of historical verification.
The Hebrew text which also has incredible historical verification has the elders of Israel underneath the temple bowing down to the sun in the east, sound familiar? well the Lord he called this detestable, that it provokes him to anger, (Ezekiel 8:16-18).
I have historical verification that Jesus was the Son of god, he rose from the dead, that's a pretty good qualifications.
The Quran says he did not and Im supposed to believe this why? Because it is written in the Quran, circular argument.
God doesn't use circular arguments, he raises people from the dead.

Be honest with the evidence folks, and seek to find, knock and the door will be opened, God loves you, he gave his son for you, don't turn your back on that, may the God of Abraham open the eyes of your heart...

In truth and in love.. Snake

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  #22  
Old 05-12-2005, 07:47 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Draken and Ahmad...

Peace NS,

I think you missed what i wanted to say, what do you mean by a historical evidence when most theologians say these are weak stories of Jesus' rising from the dead? why do you put your trust in hearsay? and even if Jesus rose from the dead, would that make him a god? or wouldn't it be God who raised him from the dead?

I have a physical proof for you, a proof that makes you a literal eyewitness on all the facts detailed in Quran, no longer do you have to have doubts, the physical proof (which is lost in the Gospel) proves to you incontrovertibly that the Quranic account is the truth from your Lord, so now the choice is yours, either to continue a circular argument with me or go and verify the physical evidence of the devine authorship of Quran.

feel free to check my introduction to the miracle of 19 here:

www.usn2161.net/19miracle.html

and also look fro appendix 1 of the authorized english translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa which is available on many websites.

That's if you really care about the truth.
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  #23  
Old 05-12-2005, 08:23 AM
nakedsnake nakedsnake is offline
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Default Ahmad...

Peace Ahmad..

Most theologians? modern liberal theologians might say that, but a fringe radical sect is not what I would consider most. when I say historical evidence I don't mean theologians but textual historians, people who can verify that the text has not been changed, I mean Christian and Secular historians that confirm the story directly and indirectly, and the historical rise of the movement from a sect of Jews, with no motivation for starting a new religion as they were already under covenant with God.
donít assume what I mean Ahmad ask me and I will tell you.
If Jesus claimed to be God, and rose from the dead that would indeed make him God, and Jesus did indeed claimed he was God, that's why he was crucified the charge was blasphemy: because you a mere man make yourself to be God.
The scriptures have fulfilled prophecy and numerous numerical miracles,
Like the genealogy of Jesus found in Matthew in Greek;

The number of words are divisible by seven, evenly.
The number of letters are divisible by seven evenly.
The number of vowels and the number of consonants are also divisible by seven.
The number of words that begin with a vowel are divisible by seven.
The number of words that begin with a consonant are divisible by seven.
The number of words that appear more than once are divisible by seven.
That occur in more than one form are divisible by seven.
That occur in only one form are divisible by seven.
The number of nouns are divisible by seven.
Only seven words are not nouns.
The number of names is divisible by seven.
There are only seven other kinds of nouns.
The number of male names is divisible by seven.
The number of generations is divisible by seven.

But the truth is this in itself proves nothing, but a resurrection does.
And you my friend as I have shown is the one arguing in circles, the truth is the Quran claims the Christian scriptures and the Hebrew scriptures are changed and corrupt. But historians claim that the text is preserved to a unusually high standard, someone is wrong.
You believe this because the Quran with no independent verification says so, I have historical verification and a resurrection.
Be honest with the evidence just investigate from a historical standard if the Christian text has been changed, if they haven't, the Christian text came before the Quran and the Quran is blaspheming the revelation of God.

If you really want truth try that.....
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2005, 05:23 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Ahmad...

Peace NS,

I will write to you some things here but please before you read get rid of any thought that i am trying to sound or feel better than you, ok?

First, let us think for a minute about the "historical evidence" what is a historical evidence? the revisionist historians say that most of the history that has reached us is fiction written by the tyrant victors and that the truth died with the oppressed!.

Now let's say there was a book that many people testified to its authenticity, why would we trust these people? why wouldn't we use our God given faculties and verify the book for ourselves instead!

A good example is the books of Talmud and Hadith, both are said to be ORAL laws delivered by the prophets Moses and Muhammad respectively, millions of people believe in these books as being of divine origin, why? because being controlled by the group mentality they followed their ancestors blindly.

What if these distortions (whether injections in the scriptures or the satanic books of Talmud and Hadith) were just a TEST ? indeed they are, all these Satanic dogmas are there only to test you, if you take a closer look at the two books of Talmud and Hadith you will find racism, superiority, terror, bias against women...etc

Obviously they are not from God, with your logic someone may defend the two books saying that the historical EVIDENCE is overwhelming.

So how can we find a REAL evidence if not in history? God provided us the answer and we should be grateful, a superhuman mathematical miracle within the text of Quran, confirming every single letter to be divinly authored. It is not like some combinations of sevens, it is an intricate phenomena that is easy to understand impossible to imitate, for example the number of chapters, the number of verses, the total number of words "God" occuring throughout Quran comes to multiples of 19 !

The miracle binds the whole structure of Quran together in one solid building, this phenomena was found also in the book Moses delivered of the Torah, and Rabbi Judah the pious mentioned it in the encyclopedia of Jewish mysticism, so the proof is not new, it was revealed to convince you that Jesus cannot help you nor himself, that God is much too exalted to have a mate or a son, afterall everything and everyone belongs to Him, He is in no need, only those who worship Him alone will be saved, i was hoping that you verify the proof before writing against it without knowledge.

Sura 74, The Hidden secret (Al-Muddath-thir)

The Quran's Common Denominator

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.*
Footnote

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

*74:30-35 This "One of the great miracles" provides the first physical evidence that the Quran is God's message to the world. This 19-based miracle is detailed in Appendix 1 (The Authorized english translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa)
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2005, 09:04 PM
nakedsnake nakedsnake is offline
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Default Re: Ahmad...

Peace and Love Ahmad...

When you have historical verification does not mean it's from God that is not what I am saying, you are misunderstanding.
Historical verification that the current versions have not been changed from those of the time period.
That's important, because then when someone claims that the text has been changed it has to match the evidence.
If the text is unchanged, the person or book (Quran) that says the text has been changed is in error, but we both can agree God does not make errors.
And history can be known, the revisionist are wrong, the more sources, independent confirmation, collaborating evidence you have the better.
If not how do you know Mohammed even existed?
I never said if someone defends certain books as being true because the evidence is overwhelming they are.
ahmad do not twist my words.
History can be known and the resurrection of the dead of Jesus of Nazareth is THE SIGN that God used to reveal his truth, mathematics is known even to Jins and Shatan and proves nothing.
So if we have historic confirmation of the Resurrection, historic confirmation that the scriptures have not been altered, and the Quran says they been altered with no corroborating evidence other than the number 19,
Ill go with a man rising from the dead anyday, Ill bet Shatan is a hell (No pun intended) of a mathematician...
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2005, 04:32 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: It is NOT magic

No NS,

I think i understand you well, obviously you are rejecting a sign of God without knowledge.

Have you verified the message or the proof confirming it? No, ironically none of those who reject the miracle has anything to say about the message, i wonder why?

But since i am not going into a circular argument as i said before, i will just say that the devils cannot invent a message that talks about God Alone, nor can they control the letters and the numbers standing for them since God is the original Creator of the text.

[34:43] When our proofs were recited to them, perfectly clear, they said, "This is simply a man who wants to divert you from the way your parents are worshiping." They also said, "These are fabricated lies." Those who disbelieved also said about the truth that came to them, "This is obviously magic."
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  #27  
Old 05-14-2005, 07:55 AM
nakedsnake nakedsnake is offline
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Default True words

Peace and Grace to you from God the Father..

These are true words...
Quote:
I think i understand you well, obviously you are rejecting a sign of God without knowledge.

Have you verified the message or the proof confirming it? No, ironically none of those who reject the miracle has anything to say about the message, i wonder why?
Only I apply them to you, you reject the Resurrection without knowledge, and you have not verified the message or it's proof...

Jesus sayd..

"You don't have his word living in you,because you don't believe in the one he sent.
You pore over the Scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life, yet they testify about ME. And you are not willing to come to ME that you may have life.
I do not accept the glory of men, but I know you-that you have no love for God within you. I have come in my Fathers name, yet you don't accept me, if someone else comes in his own name you will accept him. How can you believe?
While accepting glory from one another, you don't accept the glory that comes from the only God. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father.
Your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope. for If you believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. BUT IF YOU DONT BELIEVE HIS WRITINGS, HOW WILL YOU BELIEVE MY WORDS?"

Gospel of John 5:38-47
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