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  #1  
Old 08-16-2011, 03:18 PM
Ian Moone Ian Moone is offline
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Default What is TIME exactly?


Most of us know about measuring time & various types of clocks, but can anyone explain to me exactly what TIME itself is?

I believe I have a pretty good idea what TIME itself is exactly and will elaborate in due course, on my theory of what TIME is - but first I REALLY would appreciate hearing from others, what they think TIME is.

Thank you in advance.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:08 PM
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Wink Re: What is TIME exactly?

Time is simply the fourth dimension of space time. Just as objects move through the three spatial dimensions, they too move through time. Just like the spatial dimensions though, there are rules which govern this movement, namely that you can only "travel" in one direction in time. But I would love to hear your theories on the subject.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:41 PM
Ian Moone Ian Moone is offline
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

Thank you for taking the time and effort to make your reply Eire Engineer!
I think we are likely in agreement that Time is the 4th dimension required to explain our reality state!


To first order, time seems to have the same energy density as mass does.
So time is actually highly compressed energy.
It turnes out that all 3-space energy comes from the time domain anyway, being time converted into 3-space energy. And it also returns from 3-space back to the time domain, in an ongoing "circulation" in 4-space.
Time, as such, in a continuum of such magnitude is equally relative!
'Time' Is NOT an absolute dimension in reality.
The ONLY absolute is energy.
Time is a ratio of changes in energy density.
Time on an atom passes much faster than time at the earth level does.
Why is it that in the "time zone" of the nucleus of an atom, "time" seems to "slow down" so that the "measured velocity" of the electron appears to be only 1/137th the speed of light? But the electron's behavior seems to be that it is everywhere around the atom at the same time (electron shell), or has a "virtual velocity" of infinity?.

The physical constant alpha turns out to be equal to 1/137.

It is as if the free energy of the electron has been gravitationally red-shifted by a nucleon-sized black hole!.

This changes all observed measurements of time and distance. The amount of time dilation or gravitational red-shifting of the electron in its ground state compared to the masses of the electron and proton are defined by the universally measured constant called "alpha."

Alpha = e^2/hc

The relationship between the "virtual" and "actual" velocity, meaning distance to time, of the electron is "c."

The relationship of mass/energy to time, meaning gravity, is hidden within Planck's Constant "h."

The relationship of electrical charge "e" to time and gravity is found in the "alpha" definition.

Attempting to produce a complete system of universal science based only on the triumvirate of "measured constants" e, c, and h, has proven to be insufficient and incomplete.

It turns out that a minimum of four constants are needed to define all the properties of time and space.


If Einstein had only used his own "alpha" as the basis for solving the M-M Experiment, instead of the Lorentz Transform in his Relativity paper, he would have found that all the forces of nature; the nuclear, electric, magnetic, and gravitational forces, were all simply variations of the same force!.


I propose that Time is a combined Angular Torque Momentum & Gravity Spin Moment Kinetic Energy!.

To my mind the fundamental manifestation of time is change.

I am of the understanding that "time" is an angular torque momentum spin moment of kinetic energy, occasioned by both the earths spin moment about its own axis, combined with its observed heliocentric orbit of the sun while the sun itself orbits the center of the milky way galaxy once every approximately 26,000 years.

As such the potential angular torque momentum spin moment kinetic energy of the time domain is calculable, with all the variables known;-

A ) Mass of the earth
B ) Velocity of the earth thru space in its annual orbit of the sun
C ) Spin rate of the earth about it's own axis
D ) velocity of the sun thru space in its great year orbit of the Milky way universe

In effect we need to calculate the earths angular momentum in a corkscrew spiral thru space taking a year each time to orbit the sun once as we progress along thru the Milky way for ~26,000 years or a great year.

In just this same manner imagine the earths orbit about the sun as if it were a common spiral wound wire spring.

Now imagine that it is say 10 times longer.

Then imagine that it is looped around to form a circle like a snake swallowing its own tail.

Now stretch the coils open to make them not touching each other.

Now place a jewelery bead drilled thru its center onto the stretched coil spring!

Now spin that jewelery bead about its own axis just as the earth spins about its own axis.

Now slide the still spinning bead along the stretched out circular looped coil, taking;-

1. One revolution about it's own axis every 24 hours,

and

2. One full orbit about the center line of the coil which would represent the suns orbit about the milky way universe, every 356 & 1/4 days.

3. Currently one precession cycle is estimated to be about 25,765 years so the circular length of the looped coil spring on which the bead both spins and slides at the same time is, (365.25 days x 25,765 years) long or 9,410,666.25 earth spins about its own axis (days) before it repeats the cycle. (813,081,564,000 seconds)
4. Earths Mass = 5.9722 1024 kg's

5. Earths Velocity = 29.8 km/sec.

Source Wikipedia Quote: The rotational energy or angular kinetic energy is the kinetic energy due to the rotation of an object and is part of its total kinetic energy. Looking at rotational energy separately around an object's axis of rotation, one gets the following dependence on the object's moment of inertia:
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Glenice/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image003.gif[/IMG]where
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Glenice/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image004.gif[/IMG] is the angular speed[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Glenice/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image005.gif[/IMG] is the moment of inertia around the axis of rotation.[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Glenice/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image006.gif[/IMG] is the kinetic energy. The mechanical work required for / applied during rotation is the torque times the rotation angle. The instantaneous power of an angularly accelerating body is the torque times the angular frequency. For free-floating (unattached) objects, the axis of rotation is commonly around its center of mass.
Note the close relationship between the results for linear (or translational) and rotational motion; the formula for the
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Glenice/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image007.gif[/IMG]In the rotating system, the moment of inertia, I, takes the role of the mass, m, and the angular velocity, ω, takes the role of the linear velocity, v. The rotational energy of a rolling cylinder varies from one half of the translational energy (if it is massive) to the same as the translational energy (if it is hollow).
As an example, let us calculate the rotational kinetic energy of the Earth. As the Earth has a period of about 23.93 hours, it has an angular velocity of 7.2910−5 rad/s. The Earth has a moment of inertia, I = 8.041037 kgm2.[1] Therefore, it has a rotational kinetic energy of 2.1381029 J.
Part of it can be tapped using tidal power. This creates additional friction of the two global tidal waves, infinitesimally slowing down Earth's angular velocity ω. Due to conservation of angular momentum this process transfers angular momentum to the Moon's orbital motion, increasing its distance from Earth and its orbital period (see tidal locking for a more detailed explanation of this process).


Source Wikipedia

5.371041 J the theoretical total mass-energy of the Earth [font=&quot]I suggested that just one second of the earths total kinetic energy equals ~9 x 10 ^ 16 joules of energy / second.

I believe the earths total potential energy is closer to ~ 6.6045034566790398902710823240361 x 10^28 joules per second.

The kinetic value ignores the spin moment inertial value, while the total potential energy includes it.

If however we were to harvest (convert) the Kinetic energy into another form then theoretically it is perhaps possible to de - orbit the earth out of its geostationary orbital distance from the sun, and have it spiral into the sun!

While harvesting (converting from one form of energy to another) some of it's spin moment (gravitational force) which we already currently already do if you consider for example the use of hydro power generation (gravity) - the only effect should be the lengthening of the duration of a day as the earths spin rate about its own axis decelerates in response.

So

It all comes back to what do we consider time to be?

To me at least, at this point in "time" I am of the opinion that clocks measure the rate of spin of the earth about its own axis (broken down into hours minutes seconds etc) and that THIS is in effect a measure of the force of gravity NOT TIME.

So for me at least clocks do not measure time - they measure the force of gravity or the rate of spin of the earth about its own axis,

Thus

Time to me at least is measured by calendars - which keep track of the earths position in space in our annual orbit of the sun as we traverse the orbital path of the sun over the course of one great year!

So time is an angular torque momentum spin moment kinetic energy force!.

Least that's what I reckon at this point in time!.

Cheers![/color]
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Madness takes its toll - please have exact change handy!

The primary manifestation of Time is Change

Ee does NOT equal Em Cee Squared!

M = Δ T

Last edited by Ian Moone : 08-16-2011 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

I kind of figured that a wall of text full of misapplied scientific terms was on the way. Thanks
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:35 AM
Ian Moone Ian Moone is offline
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

I'm sorry that you seem disappointed Erie Engineer?

It seems that you were looking for a different response perhaps?

If there's anything that your aware of about Time, that you wish to impart I am all ears, because like everyone - I'm here on this earth and in this lifetime to learn!

I consider every man my teacher in that everyone has something to impart that might be worth learning.

I thought that the idea or suggestion that Time is a form of energy, and that both quantifying it and describing it might be of interest to this specific part of the forum - which was why I joined and started the thread.

If you disagree that Time is just another form of energy occasioned by the earths gravitational spin moment about its own axis and its observed heliocentric orbit about the sun during the suns orbit of the milky way galaxy over the course of a great year - then please share - because you will find in me a most patient and willing listener & student.

Cheers & beers
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Old 08-19-2011, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

It just seems like a bit of a stretch. If what you say were true, then there would be no causality for anything outside of the orbit of the earth, which is obviously not the case.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:14 PM
Ian Moone Ian Moone is offline
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

I am sorry that I didn't quite follow your reasoning there - could you please elaborate on what you mean by "no causality for anything outside of the orbit of the earth, which is obviously not the case".

I guess I always explain to myself, what I think maybe you mean, to myself by rationalizing that we here on earth experience "time" as the components of energy associated with our planetary mass orbiting the sun as it spins about it's own axis as I described and that - any other life form or inanimate object would experience say "mars time" as the planetary energy of that particular planet etc.

Obviously - because we have ways of measuring the passage of time (or our planets journey thru the universe), that we could then use those same units (based on our rate of spin about our own axis) to measure passage of time on say Mars again - in terms that we are familiar with, i.e earth time or Earth based quanta of energy...BUT couldn't we equally use say a Mars day etc to measure passage of time on Mars based upon its spin rate about its own axis and its own passage thru the universe?

Each would be equally valid units of measurement would they not and each could be converted to the other form with a simple ratio conversion?

I seem to recall that A Einstein had a small problem with his special theory of relativity - referred to as the "twin paradox".

Twin paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
In physics, the twin paradox is a thought experiment in special relativity, in which a twin makes a journey into space in a high-speed rocket and returns home to find he has aged less than his identical twin who stayed on Earth. This result appears puzzling because each twin sees the other twin as traveling, and so, according to a naive application of time dilation, each should paradoxically find the other to have aged more slowly. In fact, the result is not a paradox in the true sense, since it can be resolved within the standard framework of special relativity. The effect has been verified experimentally using measurements of precise clocks flown in airplanes[1] and satellites.
Starting with Paul Langevin in 1911, there have been numerous explanations of this paradox, many based upon there being no contradiction because there is no symmetry—only one twin has undergone acceleration and deceleration, thus differentiating the two cases. One version of the asymmetry argument made by Max von Laue in 1913 is that the traveling twin uses two inertial frames: one on the way up and the other on the way down. So switching frames is the cause of the difference, not acceleration per se.[2]
Other explanations account for the effects of acceleration. Einstein, Born and Mller invoked gravitational time dilation to explain the aging based upon the effects of acceleration.[3] Both gravitational time dilation and special relativity can be used to explain the Hafele-Keating experiment on time dilation using precise measurements of clocks flown in airplanes.

So essentially what is being spoken of here is just what I suggested could be the explanation that there are different frames of reference - one mars time and another earth time.


At the end of the day both are just different quanta of energy based on each planets mass and velocity thru space, and inertial spin moment - which of course are different for the two planets.


Another possibility exists however.


That is that there is a problem with Einsteins special theory of relativity

e =mc^2


I would contend at this point that is exactly the case.


If c is indeed the universal constant, the limit velocity of light in a vacuum (I would contend that it is ONLY the OBSERVABLE limit velocity of light in a vacuum) and is equal roughly to 186,000 mils per second or 3 x 10^8 meters per second then we have a very simple but long overlooked problem with the equation.


for e = mc^2 to be correct - then the value for C mathematically can be both


A ) +ve 3 x 10^8 meters per second


and


B ) -ve 3 x 10 ^8 meters per second


Because as any year 9 math student will tell you - there are two solutions to the square root and one id positive and the other is the negative root!


When squared as happens with e = mc^2 both values will yeild a positive outcome.

This is akin to saying that the value of the speed of light C can be 3 x 10^ 8 meters East as well as 3 x 10^8 meters per second West at the same time!

That is clearly paradoxical!

(Just as the twin paradox is paradoxical)

Usually a paradoxical outcome is the result of starting put with a false premise.

A simple example should demonstrate this point!

Premise 1 = All Dogs have 4 legs
Premise 2 = All 4 legged animals are cats

Therefore

All dogs are cats
or
All cats are dogs

Premise 2 is obviously False and accounts for the paradoxical outcome!

In Einstein's case the false premise he started out with - was ignoring the negatove root solution to his special theory of relativity equation, e =mc ^2, which is a mathematical and scientific "no no" of huge proportions.

It is therefore understandable that his outcome was paradoxical! The aforementioned twin paradox quoted above and the negative root solution!

Anyway before I head off at at tangent - I just wanted to show that I think there are many different versions of time within the universe and that each depends on where you are in space and in what system of measurement units you wish to measure it.

I guess I should add this

Where I posted that e=mc^2 isn't correct - there is just ONE possibility - that makes it true!

I believe the error to be that OBSERVABLE Light speed limit velocity 3 x 10^8 meters per second and that in light speed terms that is just mach 1 equivalent to sound barrier, and that like sound - light also can jump the limit observable velocity to warp 2 or 3 etc just as suggested in good ol star trek movies - "warp speed 9 please Mr Zulu, Spock you have the con!"

But seriously,

IF the speed of light were in fact "infinite" - then e = mc^2 then works - because infinity squared is still infinity!

We know that for near earth calculations e = mc^2 seems to give the correct answer in most instances!

My suggestion is that the value for the speed of light should be infinite!

Something worth considering in relation to this speed of light question is this.

Again as quoted above

Quote:
Time on an atom passes much faster than time at the earth level does.Why is it that in the "time zone" of the nucleus of an atom, "time" seems to "slow down" so that the "measured velocity" of the electron appears to be only 1/137th the speed of light? But the electron's behavior seems to be that it is everywhere around the atom at the same time (electron shell), or has a "virtual velocity" of infinity?.

The physical constant alpha turns out to be equal to 1/137.

It is as if the free energy of the electron has been gravitationally red-shifted by a nucleon-sized black hole!.

This changes all observed measurements of time and distance. The amount of time dilation or gravitational red-shifting of the electron in its ground state compared to the masses of the electron and proton are defined by the universally measured constant called "alpha."


I have heard / read it suggested that when Einstein adopted Mitchellson Morleys lineal and rotational analogue light speed experimental results value for the speed of light in his 21 equation proof for his special relativity theorem - that instead of adopting the universal constant c speed of light, that if he had adopted his own constant Alpha from his nobel prize winning photoelectric effects paper, and that had he done so - he would have found the much sought after Grand Unification Theorem that he searched in vain for until his end.

Interestingly when you look at that above statement about the passage of time at the atomic level...and the value for alpha and the mas of the lectron compared to the proton and neutron and the fact that it us always 1/137th of the sped of light - the OTHER interesting fact is that the electron "behaves as a shell" as though it were everywhere about the nucleus of the atom at the same time or has "infinite" speed!

I did deliberate on this at some length, and something else strange occurred to me.

Way back at the beginning of the Bible in genesis we are told that our creator God is the Alpha and the Omega (The Beginning and the End)

As you know from the above;

the value of Alpha is 1/137

&

The value of Omega is infinity!

Do we not have in this statement the make up of our reality state in the fundamental building block relationship of mass and the actual speed of light (infinity)?

Sorry for getting ahead of the discussion.

Please do elaborate on your statement;-

Quote:
"no causality for anything outside of the orbit of the earth, which is obviously not the case".
As stated I am only too willing to learn and correct any misunderstanding that my physics understanding might be flawed in some areas.

Cheers!
__________________
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change handy!

The primary manifestation of Time is Change

Ee does NOT equal Em Cee Squared!

M = Δ T

Last edited by Ian Moone : 08-19-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

Your posts are such a mish mash of unrelated scientific terms that its impossible to see what you are trying to say. Try this: start with one concept and we will go from there. It looked like you were trying to say that time only has a reference when in the vicinity of a rotating body. That is clearly not the case.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:52 AM
Ian Moone Ian Moone is offline
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

Quote:
Please do elaborate on your statement;-

Quote:
"no causality for anything outside of the orbit of the earth, which is obviously not the case".
Quote:
It looked like you were trying to say that time only has a reference when in the vicinity of a rotating body. That is clearly not the case.
Clearly you skipped or missed the bit about the twin paradox (A Einstein's "twin paradox", it was in the wiki-pedia quote)...

That referred to time as it passes in a space ship / rocket!

Also I spoke of time in the nucleus of an atom...

To get at where your headed we really need to go back to proving or disproving the existence of the either of space, if we wish to understand "time" throughout the universe.

I would suggest that the either of space, while it acts as a incompressible liquid in its ability to propagate waves across inertial space - yet it is also a seething mass of varying energy density's, and that it is our passage thru this either whether we are on a planet orbiting a sun or in a spacer ship or just a piece of space junk drifting aimlessly in space thru that ether, that is our frame of reference for measuring the energy involved which we perceive as the passage of time.

Perhaps it would be instructive if you were to outline your theory of what exactly time is?

I wish to move beyond this explanation to my discovery of the relationship between mass and Time in energy terms.

Without grasping the basics thus far It seems as tho i might be effectively talking to myself - no disrespect intended.

Would it help you if I started with posts of Mitchellson Morley's and later Sagnacs linear and then rotational analogue light speed experiments - and we progressed thru Einsteins 21 equation proof for special relativity - then again i will show the fundamental error of Einsteins special relativity theorem (which was never peer reviewed by the way).

Its important that we get a grip on exactly what time is and thus far I seem to have lost you along the way.

We do need to realize that C the universal constant 'limit velocity of light in a vacuum" is NOT the much vaunted speed of light 3 x 10^8 meters per second - but s in fact infinity!

The so called speed of light, 186,000 miles per second or 3 x 10 6 8 meters per second is just light speed at warp 1!

I suggest that it is the OBSERVABLE light speed limit velocity in a vacuum - beca8se once it jumps to warp 2, its not observable by direct observation at our frame of reference traveling at less than warp 2.

Lets start with a little more from yourself, regards your statements this far!

I'm attempting to give here the necessary grounding for you to follow me to understanding the energy relationship between Time and Mass!

If you look in my signature you will see it referred to as M = Δ T

Mass equals Change in Time

There's as much potential energy 'trapped or compressed if you prefer' in The domain of Time as their is in Mass.

How much energy is in Mass?

Well - After the Manhatten project when the atom was split - we got nuclear energy - a whole fat boys worth at Nagasaki and Hiroshima and today we have nuke power stations worth all over the globe.

Atoms are the building blocks of mass - and the energy in mass is approx 9 x 10 ^ 16 Joules!

If I am correct as I believe and M = Δ T then - by decompressing or realizing the potential energy "trapped or compressed" in just one second of time - we have similar quanta of potential energy available to us! (9 x 10 ^ 16 Joules per second).

One way of doing this could be in spatial circuits.

I will show the working for M = Δ T in my next post - but we really do need to get a grip first on the fundamental of what is time - and the answer that Time is just a form of energy.

Cheers
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Madness takes its toll - please have exact change handy!

The primary manifestation of Time is Change

Ee does NOT equal Em Cee Squared!

M = Δ T

Last edited by Ian Moone : 08-20-2011 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: What is TIME exactly?

Well again,its hrd to see exactly what you are diving at with the wall of copypasta. Can you boil it down a bit?
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