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  #31  
Old 09-17-2005, 09:14 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"


Because Christianity is the only religion that says we need forgiveness and that we can't spiritualy develop by our own means. That's contrary to human pride. People want to be in control.

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  #32  
Old 09-17-2005, 12:47 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
To say that Christ has nothing to do with the Old Testament is to make Christ an aberration that simply appeared by itself. Christ Himself said that He was the completion of Scriptures (Old Testament at his time).
Christ said he came to fulfill the Law, and He also made statements to the effect that "such and such is the Law and the Prophets".. Nice poetic words, but realize that God's Law may or may not have anything to do w/ what the Jews call the "Law of Moses".. There may be Jews who decide to follow God's Law, and there may be Jews who decide not to follow God's Law... same w/ the Gentiles.. There may be Gentiles who decide to follow God's Law, and there may be Gentiles who decide not to ...

All humans have Free Will and God is no respecter of persons (<- this is, in so many words, the Law of which Jesus speaks).

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The problem is that people just don't read the Bible to understand the logic and the perfect struture it has. 66 books by 40 men in 4000 years and it is a whole that makes perfect sense.
Whoops!

Whenever I hear about the 66 books by 40 men (<- by the way, Catholics might dispute you, since they count a different number of books in the Bible), it sets of John Darby alarm bells in my head. There is not a Protestant Church in America that has not been infected - to some extent - by the Satanic teachings of John Darby. Chuck Missler is the current day inheritor of John Darby's Satanism...

If you've never heard of John Darby or Chuck Missler, you should educate yourself on who these Dark Satanists are, since what you say here echos much of the nonsense that one often hears crossing their lips.

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God is not an absent god that let things happen. he is perfect control of everything, or He wouldn't be God at all, just a powerful being.
God is the Creator all that is. Everything in Creation comes from God, and returns back to God.. Alpha and Omega and what not. Moreover, God's Law cannot be broken by anything in Creation, although Man - by virtue of his Free Will - may *attempt* (and usually does attempt) to evade God's Law. This of course will bring about a reaction on this who attempt to do the evading, and if the evasion is gross enough, it may destroy the "lawbreaker" body, mind and Soul.

However, it's important to realize that man has Free Will and that it is Man, not God, who is in charge of Man's own choices.. Where this otherwise, then.. well.. we wouldn't have free will(!)

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That's why He has put together a plan for the redemption of mankind that included His message to the Jews, the Law, as a guide that would teach obedience and show that we could never obtain it by our efforts. The sacrifices of blood in Judaism were a model for the need of the sacrifice of Jesus' blood.
The Jewish interpretation of what constitutes "God's Law" is not necessarily the clearest that's ever been made in human history. Sure, the Ten Commandments are nice, and if the Jews had just stopped there, so much the better (<- the Ten Commandments are a *very* nice exposition of God's Law, btw).

The problem is, they kept going and kept adding it, adding nonsense like Leviticus and the Talmud and God knows what else... until what passes w/ the Jews for the "Law" is anything and everything but the Law by which God has chosen (in His infinite Wisdom) to order Creation.

Regarding your "own efforts," know that your own efforts do count for something. The most important Law in God's Universe is that "you reap what you sow".. Galatians 6:7 is where you'll find this, although truth be told every NT author spends some amount of time dealing w/ this (extremely important) topic. If you think God ignores your thoughts, actions and words, then think again. YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, and you will be held accountable to God (on Judgment Day) for every action you have taken, every word you have spoken and every thought that has crossed your mind... God is ALWAYS watching..

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To tell that Jesus and His teachings come from Zoroastrism or any other religion is absurd. There may be similarities in the teachings, because Satan copies everything and talks about peace and love, while at the same time he kills people.
Whoops!

You're saying that Jesus is Satan?! :-?

Quote:
To say Jesus went to Egypt to learn is ridiculous. Why would God go to Egypt to learn anything ? Much less to learn demonic magic ? Non-sense. This is to say that Jesus was a magician, a slave of demons, and not God Himself. It is in total contradiction of His teachings.
The Bible SAYS that Jesus went to Egypt, Einstein (to flee the Slaughter of the Innocents). The Bible moreover makes the claim that Jesus was ordained into the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which was only active in Egypt at that time..

You do the math..

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I prefer people who say that Jesus was a fraud than this nonsense of saying that they believe in this aberration , this contradiction, this magician they invented and call Jesus.
I understand.. You prefer wallowing in ignorance rather than knowing (or attempting to know) the truth.

(Although for the record, I never called Jesus a "magician".. that would be saying that Jesus was a Magi, and like I said, it is Ezra, Nehemiah and the Jews who are the proper inheritors of Magean wisdom).

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My friend Moulder, you are anything BUT a Christian.
This is true, for I have not yet been born again of the Spirit, and as such I cannot truly be called a "Christian"... I'll just warn you, know, I detect *many* traces of John Darby's teachings in what you write here, and if you're a follower of Darbyism, that pretty much puts you in league w/ the Enemy (not to mention, the British Crown)
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  #33  
Old 09-17-2005, 12:54 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

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truebeliever wrote:
Yeh, i wondered why i even posted it as soon as i posted it.

He's a fraud and he never existed.

But i'm happy believing in fairy tales, so leave me to it. :-D

Why is it NO other "religion" gets put through the griller like Christianity?
Because the Christian is held to a far higher (moral) standard than anyone else is. The problem is, there are so few precious Christians who live up to this standard, and soo many who hypocritically betray it, and in so doing betray their God and themselves, that the Christian today has become a poster child for all hypocrisy and vanity, and for the opposite of what Jesus commanded them to be..
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  #34  
Old 09-17-2005, 06:56 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

psholtz,

To hell with John darby or Chuck Missler. You only have to look at the Bible, it is plain and clear what the Law is. It is also clear that Jesus knew exactly what it was. He made references to it all the time. I could start copying verses to you, but I think it is your job to get to the Bible and read it. That's what I did. It takes some work.
What I don't appreciate is the double speak you (and all the authors that try to disprove the Bible) use, saying that the Law is the Law but is not the Law...come on, make up your mind. Either it is what is clearly written or it is all a fable and a lie.

I can't believe that you really thought I equaled God with Satan. What I said was that Satan creates religions that mimick the peace and goodness of God, but deny God and Christ as a means of salvation. That means you try to live a moral life by your own efforts but according to Jesus end up in Hell, because you never wanted to acknowledge God as whom He is and in His terms. He makes all the effort, dies in a cross for you and you snob him. You say that the things He said are not exactly what he said, you refuse to follow his simple command to trust and obey. What else can anyone in this position want more from God ? Heaven it is not.

About Jesus going to Egypt as a baby...come on, what a low punch. You said he went to Egypt to learn magic as many new age books say without any proof, and in clear contradiction of everything that Jesus said. Of course you meant as an adult. Don't try to be a wise guy. People are intelligent in the forum and they get it.
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  #35  
Old 09-17-2005, 09:14 PM
Marsali Marsali is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Psholz,

I have a few issues with your post #32, but have just one question for now.
You wrote that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek, and that this took place in Egypt after the fleeing of the innocents. My question is, where did you get this info? There's nothing in the New Testament referring to Jesus as being ordained into this priesthood. There are vague references to Melchizedek in the Old Testament in Genesis and Psalms, however.
In doing a google search for'Melchizedek', there are references having to do with Jesus in some of the gnostic writings, but that isn't the bible.
If your going to argue religion with Christians, you need to have a bible on hand to verify your your quotes.
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  #36  
Old 09-17-2005, 09:17 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Because Christianity is the only religion that says we need forgiveness and that we can't spiritualy develop by our own means. That's contrary to human pride. People want to be in control.
Exactly!
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  #37  
Old 09-18-2005, 02:36 AM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Marsali wrote:
Psholz,

I have a few issues with your post #32, but have just one question for now.
You wrote that Jesus was ordained into the priesthood of Melchizedek, and that this took place in Egypt after the fleeing of the innocents. My question is, where did you get this info? There's nothing in the New Testament referring to Jesus as being ordained into this priesthood. There are vague references to Melchizedek in the Old Testament in Genesis and Psalms, however.
In doing a google search for'Melchizedek', there are references having to do with Jesus in some of the gnostic writings, but that isn't the bible.
If your going to argue religion with Christians, you need to have a bible on hand to verify your your quotes.
Jesus' ordination into the Priesthood of Melchizedek is documented quite plainly (for all to see) in the Epistle the Hebrews, chapters 5-7..

I never said this was connected w/ the flight to Egypt, documented in the Gospel of Matthew. I merely said that it's documented, in the Gospel of Matthew, that (allegedly) Jesus spent time in Egypt (as a child, at any rate).
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  #38  
Old 09-18-2005, 02:50 AM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
psholtz,

To hell with John darby or Chuck Missler. You only have to look at the Bible, it is plain and clear what the Law is. It is also clear that Jesus knew exactly what it was. He made references to it all the time. I could start copying verses to you, but I think it is your job to get to the Bible and read it. That's what I did. It takes some work.
What I don't appreciate is the double speak you (and all the authors that try to disprove the Bible) use, saying that the Law is the Law but is not the Law...come on, make up your mind. Either it is what is clearly written or it is all a fable and a lie.
God's Law is - in so many words - God Himself, and as such, the Law is inscrutable, undefinable, unnamable and (ultimately) beyond the capacity of the human mind to fully grasp, although we can pick up little bits and pieces of it here and there (like "God is no respecter of persons" or "You shall reap as you sow", etc).

In any case, though, God's Law has little - if anything - to do w/ what passes among the Jews as the "Law of Moses" (Levitivus, Talmud, etc). These are little more than secular laws set down for the purpose of controlling and dominating the masses. OK.. that's nice. I suppose any society that values self-preservation needs something like that (here in this country, we call it the Constitution).. but just realize that such "law" is the "law of man", not the (Supreme) Law of God.

Quote:
I can't believe that you really thought I equaled God with Satan. What I said was that Satan creates religions that mimick the peace and goodness of God, but deny God and Christ as a means of salvation. That means you try to live a moral life by your own efforts but according to Jesus end up in Hell, because you never wanted to acknowledge God as whom He is and in His terms. He makes all the effort, dies in a cross for you and you snob him. You say that the things He said are not exactly what he said, you refuse to follow his simple command to trust and obey. What else can anyone in this position want more from God ? Heaven it is not.
I do trust and I do obey.

Quote:
About Jesus going to Egypt as a baby...come on, what a low punch. You said he went to Egypt to learn magic as many new age books say without any proof, and in clear contradiction of everything that Jesus said. Of course you meant as an adult. Don't try to be a wise guy. People are intelligent in the forum and they get it.
There's lots of "proof" for Jesus going to Egypt to get priestly training. One proof is in Hebrews 5-7, which documents that Jesus was ordained into the Priesthood of Melchizedek (which was only active in Egypt at the time of Jesus).

Another proof is that the teachings of Jesus are nearly identical to those of Plato, and Plato too (we know for a *historical fact*) was trained (philosophically and religiously) in Egypt. I suppose another explanation for the similarity between Plato and Jesus could be that Palestine had become deeply Hellenized by the time of Christ, and so perhaps Christ and the Apostles had picked up on a few of those memes, but realistically it's probably safe to assume that Jesus and Plato both got their teachings from the same *source*, and that source would have to have been Egypt (there's no other place on Earth where Plato and Jesus had in common).
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  #39  
Old 09-18-2005, 02:07 PM
Marsali Marsali is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Okay, Psholtz, you're right in that the priesthood of Melchizedek is mentioned in Hebrews in the New Testament - my mistake.

But there is no mention of Jesus having been ordained into this priesthood. It says, at the end of chapter 6 that..."where Jesus has entered on our behalf, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizadek."
Can't see this as any proof that Jesus was ordained into an order. The author of Hebrews, who is unknown, was speaking to Jewish Christians, and possibly using Melchizadek as a reference of how they should behave, as according to the interpretation in my bible, these Christians were in danger of apostasy from their Christian faith (they were slacking off).
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  #40  
Old 09-18-2005, 04:40 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jews 4 Jesus..."What proof do you have that Jesus was the Messiah?"

Quote:
Marsali wrote:
Okay, Psholtz, you're right in that the priesthood of Melchizedek is mentioned in Hebrews in the New Testament - my mistake.

But there is no mention of Jesus having been ordained into this priesthood. It says, at the end of chapter 6 that..."where Jesus has entered on our behalf, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizadek."
Can't see this as any proof that Jesus was ordained into an order. The author of Hebrews, who is unknown, was speaking to Jewish Christians, and possibly using Melchizadek as a reference of how they should behave, as according to the interpretation in my bible, these Christians were in danger of apostasy from their Christian faith (they were slacking off).
You might try Hebrews 7:16..
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