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  #1  
Old 09-24-2005, 04:12 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?


Here is a little extract from a documentary called "Matter Of Heart".

www.members.iinet.net.au/~falluga

Note "Sir Laurens Van Der Post" talking of the greater and greater monopolies forming a totalitarian system.

Van Der Post was Prince Charles close mentor and good friend of Lord Mountbatton. He was also Godfather to the 2 Princes William and Harry. He died in 1999.

There is some talk that Prince Charles is a Mason. I have doubts given the influence that Van Der Post has over him.

One of the big flaws Jung is accused of is his failure to take into account the "conspiratorial" nature of world events. This is valid. However the "Jungian" claim that one must change ones self first has some validity otherwise one may find ones self sparring with ones shadow. Perhaps. Hard call.

Note Jungs "vision" before he died in 1961 of a world wide catastrophe. He drew it as the last 50 years of western civilization. That makes it around 2011-12.

I have hear Jung accused of being a Mason. I find it laughable. He DESPISED secret societies. His whole psychological viewpoint is that one must have a personal relationship with God...you do that by becoming ones self as opposed to simply doing and thinking what you were told from birth.

It seems most people either love him or hate him. Few manage an objective viewpoint.

Quote:


Mans relation to God probably has to undergo a certain important change: Instead of the propitiating paraise to an unpredictable King or the childs prayer to a loving Father, the responsable living and fulfilling of the divine will in us will be our form of worship and commerce with God.

His goodness means grace and light and his dark side the terrible temptation of power.

Man has already receieved so much knowledge that he can destroy his own planet.

Let us hope that Gods good spirit will guide him in his decisions because it will depend upon mans decision whether God's creation will continue.

Nothing shows more drastically than this possibility how much of divine power has come within the reach of man.

C.G Jung. 1956


Here's a link to some Jung quotes.

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Old 09-24-2005, 09:27 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

Van Der Post was an occultist, an weirdo who would go to Africa to participate in rituals and get stoned. He could as well do that in England.
He was a friend of Jung (an idiot led by his spirit guide, so fooled that he thought it was a voice from his unconscious) and initiated Prince Charles in occultism...Charlie went to Africa himself later to participate in the same ritual.
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Old 09-24-2005, 06:08 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

Specifically, what "occult practices" did he perform?

Do you have a reference for Charlies African adventures?

In his defense, Jung warned time and again people against messing with the occult.

Jung considered his first task getting the "disturbed soul" back into their "religious milue" as soon as possible.
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Old 09-25-2005, 07:12 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

What is occultism if not contacting spirits (demons)? That's what he did.
The bok "The Prince and the Paranormal" tells all the story of Van Der Post and his relationship with the Windsors, besides other occult practices of the royals.
Jung was guided by a spirit, if I am not wrong named Philemon. He dealt a lot with occult practices too, was an expert in Oriental magic stuff.
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Old 09-25-2005, 07:57 PM
rushdoony rushdoony is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

PsychoHeresy: C. G. Jung's Legacy to the Church

The overwhelming majority of Christians have probably never heard of C. G. Jung, but his influence in the church is vast and affects sermons, books, and activities, such as the prolific use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) by seminaries and missionary organizations. A current, popular example of Jung's legacy can be seen in Robert Hicks's book The Masculine Journey, which was given to each of the 50,000 men whoattended the 1993 Promise Keepers conference. Christians need to learn enough about Jung and his teachings to be warned and wary.

Jung's legacy to "Christian psychology" is both direct and indirect. Some professing Christians, who have been influenced by Jung's teachings, integrate aspects of Jungian theory into their own practice of psychotherapy. They may incorporate his notions regarding personality types, the personal unconscious, dream analysis, and various archetypes in their own attempt to understand and counsel their clients. Other Christians have been influenced more indirectly as they have engaged in inner healing, followed 12-step programs, or taken the MBTI, which is based on Jung's personality types and incorporates his theories of introversion and extroversion.

Jung and Freud

Jung's legacy has not enhanced Christianity. From its inception psychotherapy has undermined the doctrines of Christianity. Sigmund Freud's attitudes towards Christianity were obviously hostile, since he believed that religious doctrines are all illusions and labeled all religion as "the universal obsessional neurosis of humanity."1 His one-time follower and colleague Carl Jung, on the other hand, may not be quite as obvious in his disdain for Christianity. However, his theories have disdainfully diminished Christian doctrines by putting them at the same level as those of all religions.

While Jung did not call religion a "universal obsessional neurosis," he did view all religions, including Christianity, to be collective mythologies - not real in essence, but having a real effect on the human personality. Dr. Thomas Szasz describes the difference between the psychoanalytic theories of the two men this way: "Thus in Jung's view religions are indispensable spiritual supports, whereas in Freud's they are illusory crutches."2 While Freud argued that religions are delusionary and therefore evil, Jung contended that all religions are imaginary but good. Both positions are anti-Christian; one denies Christianity and the other mythologizes it..

After reading Freud's Interpretation of Dreams, Jung contacted Freud and a friendship with mutual admiration ensued and lasted about eight years. Even though Jung had served four years as the first president of the International Psychoanalytic Association, the break between Jung and Freud was complete. Jung departed from Freud on a number of points, particularly Freud's sex theory. In addition, Jung had been developing his own theory and methodology, known as analytical psychology.

The Collective Unconscious

Jung taught that the psyche consists of various systems including the personal unconscious with its complexes and a collective unconscious with its archetypes. Jung's theory of a personal unconscious is quite similar to Freuds creation of a region containing a person's repressed, forgotten or ignored experiences. However, Jung considered the personal unconscious to be a "more or less superficial layer of the unconscious." Within the personal unconscious are what he called "feeling-toned complexes." He said that "they constitute the personal and private side of psychic life."3 These are feelings and perceptions organized around significant persons or events in the person's life.

Jung believed that there was a deeper and more significant layer of the unconscious, which he called the collective unconscious, with what he identified as archetypes, which he believed were innate, unconscious, and generally universal. Jung's collective unconscious has been described as a "storehouse of latent memory traces inherited from man's ancestral past, a past that includes not only the racial history of man as a separate species but his pre-human or animal ancestry as well."4 Therefore, Jung's theory incorporates Darwin's theory of evolution as well as ancient mythology. Jung taught that this collective unconscious is shared by all people and is therefore universal. However, since it is unconscious, not all people are able to tap into it. Jung saw the collective unconscious as the foundational structure of personality on which the personal unconscious and the ego are built. Because he believed that the foundations of personality are ancestral and universal, he studied religions, mythology, rituals, symbols, dreams and visions. He says:

All esoteric teachings seek to apprehend the unseen happenings in the psyche, and all claim supreme authority for themselves. What is true of primitive lore is true in even higher degree of the ruling world religions. They contain a revealed knowledge that was originally hidden, and they set forth the secrets of the soul in glorious images.5

Jung's View of Christianity

However, because Jung left room for religion, many Christians felt more comfortable with his ideas. Thus it is important to look at Jung's attitudes towards Christianity. His father was a Protestant minister, and Jung experienced aspects of the Christian faith while growing up. He wrote the following about his early experience with the Holy Communion, which seems to be related to his later ideas about religions being only myths:

Slowly I came to understand that this communion had been a fatal experience for me. It had proved hollow; more than that, it had proved to be a total loss. I knew that I would never again be able to participate in this ceremony. "Why, that is not religion at all," I thought. "It is the absence of God; the church is a place I should not go to. It is not life which is there, but death."6

From that one significant incident, Jung could have proceeded to deny all religions, but he didn't. Instead, he evidently saw that religion was very meaningful to many people and that religions could be useful as myths. His choice to consider all religions as myths was further influenced by his view of psychoanalysis. According to Viktor Von Weizsaecker, "C. G. Jung was the first to understand that psychoanalysis belonged in the sphere of religion."7 That Jung's theories constitute a religion can be seen in his view of God as the collective unconscious and thereby present in each person's unconscious. For him religions revealed aspects of the unconscious and could thus tap into a person's psyche. He also used dreams as avenues into the psyche for self-understanding and self-exploration. Religion was only a tool to tap into the self and if a person wanted to use Christian symbols that was fine with him.

Jung's Spirit Guide

Because Jung turned psychoanalysis into a type of religion, he is also considered to be a transpersonal psychologist as well as a psychoanalytical theorist. He delved deeply into the occult, practiced necromancy, and had daily contact with disembodied spirits, which he called archetypes. Much of what he wrote was inspired by such entities. Jung had his own familiar spirit whom he called Philemon. At first he thought Philemon was part of his own psyche, but later on he found that Philemon was more than an expression of his own inner self. Jung says:

Philemon and other figures of my fantasies brought home to me the crucial insight that there are things in the psyche which I do not produce, but which produce themselves and have their own life. Philemon represented a force which was not myself. In my fantasies I held conversations with him, and he said things which I had not consciously thought. For I observed clearly that it was he who spoke, not I. . . . Psychologically, Philemon represented superior insight. He was a mysterious figure to me. At times he seemed to me quite real, as if he were a living personality. I went walking up and down the garden with him, and to me he was what the Indians call a guru.8

One can see why Jung is so very popular among New Agers.

Jung's AA Influence

Jung also played a role in the development of Alcoholics Anonymous. Cofounder Bill Wilson wrote the following in a letter to Jung in 1961:

This letter of great appreciation has been very long overdue. . . . Though you have surely heard of us [AA], I doubt if you are aware that a certain conversation you once had with one of your patients, a Mr. Roland H., back in the early 1930's did play a critical role in the founding of our fellowship.9

Wilson continued the letter by reminding Jung of what he had "frankly told [Roland H.] of his hopelessness," that he was beyond medical or psychiatric help. Wilson wrote: "This candid and humble statement of yours was beyond doubt the first foundation stone upon which our society has since been built." When Roland H. had asked Jung if there was any hope for him Jung "told him that there might be, provided he could become the subject of a spiritual or religious experience - in short, a genuine conversion." Wilson continued in his letter: "You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for the best."10 As far as Jung was concerned, there was no need for doctrine or creed, only an experience.

It is important to note that Jung could not have meant conversion to Christianity, because as far as Jung was concerned all religion is simply myth - a symbolic way of interpreting the life of the psyche. To Jung, conversion simply meant a totally dramatic experience that would profoundly alter a person's outlook on life. Jung himself had blatantly rejected Christianity and turned to idolatry. He replaced God with a myriad of mythological archetypes.

Jung's response to Wilson's letter included the following statement about Roland H.:

His craving for alcohol was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness; expressed in medieval language: the union with God.11

In his letter Jung mentioned that in Latin the same word is used for alcohol as for "the highest religious experience." Even in English, alcohol is referred to as spirits. But, knowing Jung's theology and privy counsel with a familiar spirit, one must conclude that the spirit he is referring to is not the Holy Spirit, and the god he is talking about is not the God of the Bible, but rather a counterfeit spirit posing as an angel of light and leading many to destruction.

Jung's Blasphemy

Jung's neo-paganism and his desire to replace Christianity with his own concept of psychoanalysis can be seen in a letter he wrote to Freud:

I imagine a far finer and more comprehensive task for [psychoanalysis] than alliance with an ethical fraternity. I think we must give it time to infiltrate into people from many centers, to revivify among intellectuals a feeling for symbol and myth, ever so gently to transform Christ back into the soothsaying god of the vine, which he was, and in this way absorb those ecstatic instinctual forces of Christianity for the one purpose of making the cult and the sacred myth what they once were - a drunken feast of joy where man regained the ethos and holiness of an animal.12

Thus Jung's goal for psychoanalysis was to be an all-encompassing religion superior to Christianity, reducing its truth to myth and transmogrifying Christ into a "soothsaying god of the vine." God's answer to such blasphemy can be seen in Psalm 2:

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Christians dabble in Jung's religion when they incorporate his notions about man and deity through imbibing in his theories, therapies, and notions that have filtered down through other psychotherapies, through 12-step programs, through inner healing, through dream analysis, and through personality types and tests.
http://www.pamweb.org/jungleg.html
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Old 09-25-2005, 08:39 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

Quote:
Van Der Post was an occultist, an weirdo who would go to Africa to participate in rituals and get stoned. He could as well do that in England.
Fair enough. But I caution as the amount of outright BULLSHIT I have read on these matters would fill a truck several times over. Idle gossip and inuendo becomes "fact". Just like when nursing, I complained about the amount of drugs being taken by nurses from the "drug cupboard"...i found out 3 years later that completely made up rumours had become "fact" that I was a drug addict on Pethidine and covering my arse!

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He was a friend of Jung (an idiot led by his spirit guide, so fooled that he thought it was a voice from his unconscious)
I have read every word written by Jung, i'm afraid you will have your opinion and I will have mine.

Quote:
...and initiated Prince Charles in occultism...Charlie went to Africa himself later to participate in the same ritual.
Again, i'd like the reference if you can...ta SAT. :-)
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Old 09-25-2005, 09:53 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

Quote:
Christians need to learn enough about Jung and his teachings to be warned and wary.
Fair enough. I agree. They should also read books by the man himself and not just half assed criticisms by people either outright lying or quoting completely out of context.

Quote:
Jung's legacy to "Christian psychology" is both direct and indirect. Some professing Christians, who have been influenced by Jung's teachings, integrate aspects of Jungian theory into their own practice of psychotherapy...
"Christian Psychology"...i agree thats completely stupid and I'm sure Jung would not approve. That is reducing the SPECIFIC religious experience DOWN into the "nothing but..." of psychology.

Quote:
Jung's legacy has not enhanced Christianity.
I disagree. It's enhanced my understanding greatly and many others I know. It has of course threatened people because of many reasons, one of which is Jungs haphazard application of this and that in a flood of ideas and theories that for many do not flow into a "coherent" whole. His "stuff" is being applied willy nilly here and there by all and sundry. Jung is to blame for this. He is simply not explicit enough about certain things and one must remeber...his work ranged for over 50 years. What you write in your early 20's is VASTLY different from your writings at 80. To quote from his exciteable 20's is not fair and an obvious attempt to satisfy the anxiety brought on by Jungs work. Fair enough. But people should again be more honest when critiquing him. It simply makes thinking people consider people writing in the name of Christianity as desperate "Jung Deniers".

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From its inception psychotherapy has undermined the doctrines of Christianity.
It certainly has. That of "organised" Christianity but not that of Christs words in the Gospel.

Quote:
Sigmund Freud's attitudes towards Christianity were obviously hostile, since he believed that religious doctrines are all illusions and labeled all religion as "the universal obsessional neurosis of humanity."
I agree. Freud was a "materialist" par excellance. He once told Jung that psychotherapy had to be made a "bullwark" against the "black mud tide of occultism". Freud made a good Communist if you had'nt noticed.

Quote:
His one-time follower and colleague Carl Jung, on the other hand, may not be quite as obvious in his disdain for Christianity.
That is ABSOLOUTE SHIT! He admired "Christ" openly and warned time and again that Westerners should NOT fall into the trap of taking on Eastern religions over the top of their Western heritage. He considered Christianity the proper religion for the West. he also noted that some people simply had NO attachment to this faith as they required something more...a direct experience of the divine - ala, Paul on his way to Damascus.

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However, his theories have disdainfully diminished Christian doctrines by putting them at the same level as those of all religions.
Crap. Not true. He simply states that Eatern religions evolved out of the genetic structure of the peoples and their places. Again and again Jung warns of Westerners taking on other cultural practices as the "thing" for the day.

Quote:
While Jung did not call religion a "universal obsessional neurosis," he did view all religions, including Christianity, to be collective mythologies - not real in essence, but having a real effect on the human personality.
NEVER once did Jung in ALL of his writings claim that Christ was a "mythic" figure. He simply stated that Christ was the expression of an age old archetypal pattern...that of God incarnating into "this" world to deliver a message to his people. He warned against the "nothing but..." attitude of psychology and it's reductionism. There is a great passage about Jung during a particularly trying time. He says..."i learned as never before the concept of Christ as my brother." That is indicative of Jungs attitude to Christ and Christianity. It proves nothing over all but i put it here as a defence that Jung considered Christianity as a "nothing but...". Even if it was useful.

Quote:
While Freud argued that religions are delusionary and therefore evil, Jung contended that all religions are imaginary but good. Both positions are anti-Christian; one denies Christianity and the other mythologizes it...
That is simply the view of the author. That is simply not the case when taking the work of Jung in it's totality. Again, i see the highly selective quoting of certain things out of context in ALL critiuqes of Jungs work.

Quote:
...the break between Jung and Freud was complete. Jung departed from Freud on a number of points, particularly Freud's sex theory. In addition, Jung had been developing his own theory and methodology, known as analytical psychology.
Why does'nt the author go into more detail? This was the pivotal pointof Jungs career and spoke volumes on the mans integrity.

The break was BITTER. Jung complained that Freud was reducing the miracle of man down to an obsessional theory of "nothing but..." with his dogmatic application of a dubious "sexual theory" of "everything" which Jung considered ridiculous. He found Freud dogmatic and "reductionist" to the point of denying "truth" which to Jung was EVRYTHING. Jung is difficult for most people in that he refused to mould it down into a "nice" set of rules for living. For Jung truth was a continuing revalation of unfolding that NEVER ended. Jung is simply not for just anyone who is looking for "certainty".

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However, because Jung left room for religion, many Christians felt more comfortable with his ideas.
WTF! "Left room". That was his central point! Lack of a spiritual life WAS the central cause for all mans woes! Hence his absoloute despising of Communism and the talk that he was a "NAZI" sympathiser. Yes, like most of middle class Europe and above who trembled at the thought of a Bolshevick invasion.

Quote:
Thus it is important to look at Jung's attitudes towards Christianity. His father was a Protestant minister, and Jung experienced aspects of the Christian faith while growing up. He wrote the following about his early experience with the Holy Communion, which seems to be related to his later ideas about religions being only myths:
That is a fucking lie! Outrages and indicative of peoples writings on Jung. I GAURANTEE the author has not even read Jungs Collected Works.

Quote:
Slowly I came to understand that this communion had been a fatal experience for me. It had proved hollow; more than that, it had proved to be a total loss. I knew that I would never again be able to participate in this ceremony. "Why, that is not religion at all," I thought. "It is the absence of God; the church is a place I should not go to. It is not life which is there, but death."
What a blatently obvious example of selective quoting. The author should have included the 300 other statements by Jung on this matter. That the Protestant Church specifically was nothing more than a social gathering where "nothing" happened. That the ceremony was bereft of the original meaning and that God was simply NOT present in the building. The EXACT reason I attend NO Church. They are "dead" places for me personally where the adherents have become mere social workers and sychophants to political power and not the saver of souls.

Quote:
From that one significant incident, Jung could have proceeded to deny all religions, but he didn't.
What a ridiculous statement! Like a sooky little kid who has lost his dummy. Pathetic. He NEVER denied Christian faith! He denied the DEAD CHURCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that is why THEY hate him! Because he points out the obvious. The churches are simply extensions of worldly power with NO connection to the divine. What could be more obvious today then the dead and corrupt churches?

Quote:
Instead, he evidently saw that religion was very meaningful to many people and that religions could be useful as myths.
Yes, the vast majority of ancient religions and inparticular the Eastern philosophies and the Greek myths were indeed "useful myths". Jung was quite specific on what a "myth" was and when a particular event takes place in time and space it takes on a "mythical" quality that enables it to last down the eons as it speaks an eternal truth present in the very genetic structure of man. Jung NEVER denied Christ existed. He simply stated the archetypal nature of the event. Just as George Washington crossing the Potamiac "happened" and takes on the "mythic" quality of the hero...standing tall on the bow...it's a pretty easy concept to graps. Just as the "trintiy" is easy to grasp.

Quote:
That Jung's theories constitute a religion can be seen in his view of God as the collective unconscious and thereby present in each person's unconscious.
Are you ready Dear Reader...here we go...are you sure you're ready...take deep breathe...

"The Kingdom of God is within You".

Sighhhhhh...

Quote:
He also used dreams as avenues into the psyche for self-understanding and self-exploration. Religion was only a tool to tap into the self and if a person wanted to use Christian symbols that was fine with him.
"Religion was ONLY a tool"...WTF again! Who is this idiot author? For Jung religion IS the DIRECT expression of the Self. Pure and simple. "A tool"? This is typical of the ridiculous grasping of critics of Jung, who's agenda is QUITE clear. To protect themselves and their world view in a "reactionary" way rather than making a sincere and balanced critique of Jungs work. If Jungs work is misused then blame the "wielder", not Jung who warned throught his work of the perils of delving into the subject. A tool for "self exploration" would be dream work and Astrology. Not for predicting the futue but revealing ones unique God given potentials.

Quote:
One can see why Jung is so very popular among New Agers.
People he considered idiots.

Quote:
To Jung, conversion simply meant a totally dramatic experience that would profoundly alter a person's outlook on life. Jung himself had blatantly rejected Christianity and turned to idolatry. He replaced God with a myriad of mythological archetypes.
No, he simply pointed out that the human being is made up of many different potentials that are expressed at certain times in certain places. He considered God to be the "organising principle" around which the human psyche "held together" and attemted to put the errant ego back on track. He also spoke of God as "out their" in his work with Wolfgang Pauli and the quantum physists. But that gets into the complex nature of "inner'" and "outer".

The "Self/God" ensures the sinful ego does not stray too far from the divine plan for the individual.

Quote:
Jung's neo-paganism and his desire to replace Christianity with his own concept of psychoanalysis can be seen in a letter he wrote to Freud:
A letter he wrote early on in his career.

Quote:
...and in this way absorb those ecstatic instinctual forces of Christianity for the one purpose of making the cult and the sacred myth what they once were - a drunken feast of joy where man regained the ethos and holiness of an animal.
He is not saying that man return to the state of an "animal". He is saying after man has forged an ego seperate from God, he must regain the capacity for the full expression of his being and in doing so give direct expression to the will of God. If you are a split and repressed soul you cannot give expression to the will of God but simply spend all day holed up in your 4*2 mansion expending all your energy denying the impulse to life. God is about joy and love...the sheer excitemtn that we even EXIST! It is a miracle and that is what Jung wanted the Church to return to...the ecstatic expression of the miracle of life itself instead of the dead and dry deadness it had become. A simple method of political control over the instincts of man for wholeness and completeness which competes with the centralised power and certain direction of a power mad few.

Quote:
Thus Jung's goal for psychoanalysis was to be an all-encompassing religion superior to Christianity, reducing its truth to myth and transmogrifying Christ into a "soothsaying god of the vine."
NEVER! He considered his work a "tool" to regain contact with the "divine spark". "The water of life". That gives "meaning" to ones VERY existence. To ones "specialness" and "divine origens". Again, the above quote is simply the idiot authors opinion and has NOTHING to do with the actual work of Jung. Nothing.

Organised Christianity and the Churches in general better "get a life" or they can consider themselves dead and buried.

The massive turning away from the faith is because of the REFUSAL of the Church Fathers to give the tools to know God to the faithful but instead seek to centralise their power and fall into Satans trap of simple "rule following" and "order" keeping.

The Churches are as "materialist" and as dead as Communism.

"The Kingdom of God is within You".

Now who said that?
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:36 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

TB,

That Jung was an intelligent guy with many insights is true. The problem is that his involvement with occultism made him jump to conclusions that are totally unscientific and methaphysical. I can understand archetypes as constructions of culture to symbolize important experiences that are common to all men, ideas passed thru language...but what happens today is that people believe that archetypes have their own mystical existence. This is total Oriental mystic thinking and is 99% of his legacy, even if he has written something good somewhere else. In my opinion, this man has done more harm to western spirituality than anyone else because of his tremendous influence.

I would like to understand in what way you consider Jung's work benefitial.
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:44 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

What's wrong with being "unscientific"; or rather, what's so good about being "scientific"?

Why are you so scared of the metaphysical, Sat?

Do you even have a faint idea what that is?
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:51 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Carl Jung. New Age Subversive Or Genuine Truth Seeker?

I was going to post a long reply but thought better of it.

In the end, Jung is asking for criticism. Some severe. His private life was a mess and his attempts to make "mystical" seem "empircal" was asking for trouble...although that was'nt a complete failure, but he mixed the 2 so badly. Seemingly pulling "stuff" out of his hat, which he could...and was more often right than wrong.

If there was a list of what Jung has contributed?

That man MUST have a connection to the divine. Without spirituality he over eats, drinks and takes drugs and is open to the political whim of the day being blown this way and that with NO value in himself over that given him by the State and his fellows.

That "religion" is as sure an instinct as "hunger" or "thirst". Without it, man degenerates spiritually and then physically. His analysis of myths and stories throught history show their is a common "thread" belonging to ALL the human race. The "Collective Unconscious"...shared by all humanity and the repository of ALL human potential. Ultimately lying dormant in the DNA. And from where does that flow from? But from God.

Jung has restored in some measure the dignity of man in a time of rampant materialism and political madness while the Churches stood back and said...

That he was all over the place and left his "stuff" open to countless interpretation was his fault. He warned his work was incomplete and that he should NOT be turned into a "cult" but that is EXACTLY what has happened.

I'll Close with his comment before his death..."if all I have done is create another 'ism' all my work was for nothing".

As for me? His work enabled me the "tools" to have an "inner life" to tame psychic forces that would have destroyed me.

Jungs work is a "tool" and NOT religion. His "followers" have ensured that Jung instead of Jung's work have become the issue. He is partly to blame for this. I think in his shadow lay a desire for power that he fought consciously all his life.

In the end you are right...there is too much to criticise. However, there is gold in their. Not for everyone.
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