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  #11  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:42 PM
Barbara Barbara is offline
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Default Re: Countdown to World War Three


Very informative and interesting post(s), Psholtz. I am a seeker after knowledge and always appreciate well thought out viewpoints. I look forward to your future posts.

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  #12  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:54 PM
Bouncer Bouncer is offline
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Default Re: Countdown to World War Three

As do I psholtz, and would like to toss one in the well - many things, I believe, in the Bible are both allegorical AND literal, showing the duality of prophecy, etc. Consider the prophet Isaiah and the pronouncement about the virgin birth.

God made sure that he had Israel's attention again and again in order to lead them as his people. Moses, the Red Sea, mannah, water from the rock, etc.

There also is a spiritual Israel of which anyone in the world may be a citizen as long as the conversion is a proper one.
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  #13  
Old 10-31-2005, 04:49 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Countdown to World War Three

Quote:
Bouncer wrote:
As do I psholtz, and would like to toss one in the well - many things, I believe, in the Bible are both allegorical AND literal, showing the duality of prophecy, etc. Consider the prophet Isaiah and the pronouncement about the virgin birth.
There may be some (somewhat accurate) local Canaanite history that's represented in the Book of Isaiah, esp in the first parts of the book leading up to Chap 40, but the overall structure of that book clearly shows it to be have been doctored by later Jewish scribes, more especially the chapters 40-60 and more especially the parts that "prophesize" that King Cyrus was going to "release" the Jews from Babylon.. (<-- you have to be quite gullible indeed, imho, to believe that this was a "prophecy" that was made in 700BC, rather than something that was written in by hand in 500BC by Cyrus himself, or one of his minions).

The so-called "Virgin Birth" in Isaiah, though, is a wonderful example of utterly erroneous Christian myth-making that has plagued an otherwise honorbale faith for the past 2,000 years. In reality, there is not ONE SINGLE PROPHECY of the OT that Jesus fulfilled. Jesus didn't fulfill hundreds of OT prophecies, he didn't fulfill dozens of OT prophecies, he didn't fulfill 10 OT prophecies, not 5, not 3, not 2 and not even 1.... and most certainly, Jesus did *not* fulfill the "Virgin Birth" prophecy in Isaiah.

And why should he? Christianity is about following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. It's about living your life, using him as a model. It's not about OT scriptures and whether or nor they were ever fulfilled..

I'm glad you picked the Virgin Birth prophecy from Isaiah, since it's debunked quite easily. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that everything written in Chap 7-8 of Isaiah was true. The first problem the Christian has to contend w/ is that Isaiah prophesized the name of this child to be "Immanuel", not "Jesus".. OK. That alone might be enough to cast doubt on whether or not Jesus "fulfilled" said prophecy, at least from a rational point of view. But if not, we can keep going.

The next point we come to is context and setting. Ahaz, the King of Judah, was engaged in a war w/ Pekah, King of Israel and w/ Rezin, King of Syria (Damascus). Ahaz was afraid about losing the war. Isaiah tells him not to worry, that he will win and to ask for a sign. Ahaz refuses. Isaiah continues (in so many words, I'm paraphrasing): "Don't worry, for a child will be born, and his name shall be Immanuel, and before this child is old enough to tell right from wrong, both your enemies will be vanquished."

OK.... Now think here for just one moment.

What kind of audacity do you think Isaiah would have had to have to tell Ahaz something like: "Don't worry, you'll defeat your enemies! But first you have to wait about 700 years for this dude Jesus (although Isaiah, curiously, gives him the name Immanuel instead.. go figure) to be born, and only after this child is old enough to tell right from wrong - let's say 700 + 5 years from now - will your enemies have been vanquished!"

Had Isaiah told Ahaz that, I'm sure Ahaz would have had Isaiah's head cut off and served on a silver platter..

It's also fun to note that even though Isaiah assures Ahaz of victory in this war, and even though the Book of Isaiah says nothing about any loses Ahaz may have suffered, Ezra completely contradicts Isaiah in 2 Chronicles 28, where he has Ahaz's butt being whopped by the two kings.

But no matter...

Next we come to the matter of the virgin herself, who we shall soon find, is in no way a virgin. Rather, the correct translation of this Hebrew word into English is "young woman", and the correct translation of the accompanying verb is "is" not "will be" (the verb is in present, not future tense). So the "prophecy" is not that a virgin will give birth.. Isaiah already *knows* that a particular young woman IS pregnant. The prophecy is what the name of the child will be, and more specifically, what the state of Israel and Damascus will be once the child is say 5 or 6 years old.

Next, we notice that this "virgin" (who's not really a virgin), spoken of passing in Isaiah 7:14, is no ordinary woman, but that in fact she's Isaiah's wife(!), and that the "child" of which Isaiah is speaking is his own son(!). This is made clear by briefly reading Isaiah 8:1-10. Furthermore, if there is any doubt that Isaiah was comfortable using his own children as "signs" for the entire nation of Israel, the reader need look no further Isaiah 8:18, where Isaiah assures the reader that this is in fact precisely what he is doing.

So the so-called "virgin birth" of Isaiah has precisely *nothing* to do w/ anyone named Jesus...

Every other single last one of the "prophecies" in the OT that allegedly "prophesize" the coming of "Jesus" can be debunked just as easily, if not easier.

The only reason St. Matthew was able to get away w/ this fraud was b/c back then, Bibles were far more rare than they are today. We're what? 500 years into the printing press now? There's no reason for you to continue believing this lie, in this day and age..

Thomas Paine debunked every last one of the OT "prophecies" of Jesus way back in the 1790s.. You'd think people would have learned by now:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/examine_prophecies.html
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  #14  
Old 10-31-2005, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Countdown to World War Three

Quote:
psholtz wrote:
Quote:
Bouncer wrote:
As do I psholtz, and would like to toss one in the well - many things, I believe, in the Bible are both allegorical AND literal, showing the duality of prophecy, etc. Consider the prophet Isaiah and the pronouncement about the virgin birth.
There may be some (somewhat accurate) local Canaanite history that's represented in the Book of Isaiah, esp in the first parts of the book leading up to Chap 40, but the overall structure of that book clearly shows it to be have been doctored by later Jewish scribes, more especially the chapters 40-60 and more especially the parts that "prophesize" that King Cyrus was going to "release" the Jews from Babylon.. (<-- you have to be quite gullible indeed, imho, to believe that this was a "prophecy" that was made in 700BC, rather than something that was written in by hand in 500BC by Cyrus himself, or one of his minions).

The so-called "Virgin Birth" in Isaiah, though, is a wonderful example of utterly erroneous Christian myth-making that has plagued an otherwise honorbale faith for the past 2,000 years. In reality, there is not ONE SINGLE PROPHECY of the OT that Jesus fulfilled. Jesus didn't fulfill hundreds of OT prophecies, he didn't fulfill dozens of OT prophecies, he didn't fulfill 10 OT prophecies, not 5, not 3, not 2 and not even 1.... and most certainly, Jesus did *not* fulfill the "Virgin Birth" prophecy in Isaiah.

And why should he? Christianity is about following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. It's about living your life, using him as a model. It's not about OT scriptures and whether or nor they were ever fulfilled..

I'm glad you picked the Virgin Birth prophecy from Isaiah, since it's debunked quite easily. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that everything written in Chap 7-8 of Isaiah was true. The first problem the Christian has to contend w/ is that Isaiah prophesized the name of this child to be "Immanuel", not "Jesus".. OK. That alone might be enough to cast doubt on whether or not Jesus "fulfilled" said prophecy, at least from a rational point of view. But if not, we can keep going.

The next point we come to is context and setting. Ahaz, the King of Judah, was engaged in a war w/ Pekah, King of Israel and w/ Rezin, King of Syria (Damascus). Ahaz was afraid about losing the war. Isaiah tells him not to worry, that he will win and to ask for a sign. Ahaz refuses. Isaiah continues (in so many words, I'm paraphrasing): "Don't worry, for a child will be born, and his name shall be Immanuel, and before this child is old enough to tell right from wrong, both your enemies will be vanquished."

OK.... Now think here for just one moment.

What kind of audacity do you think Isaiah would have had to have to tell Ahaz something like: "Don't worry, you'll defeat your enemies! But first you have to wait about 700 years for this dude Jesus (although Isaiah, curiously, gives him the name Immanuel instead.. go figure) to be born, and only after this child is old enough to tell right from wrong - let's say 700 + 5 years from now - will your enemies have been vanquished!"

Had Isaiah told Ahaz that, I'm sure Ahaz would have had Isaiah's head cut off and served on a silver platter..

It's also fun to note that even though Isaiah assures Ahaz of victory in this war, and even though the Book of Isaiah says nothing about any loses Ahaz may have suffered, Ezra completely contradicts Isaiah in 2 Chronicles 28, where he has Ahaz's butt being whopped by the two kings.

But no matter...

Next we come to the matter of the virgin herself, who we shall soon find, is in no way a virgin. Rather, the correct translation of this Hebrew word into English is "young woman", and the correct translation of the accompanying verb is "is" not "will be" (the verb is in present, not future tense). So the "prophecy" is not that a virgin will give birth.. Isaiah already *knows* that a particular young woman IS pregnant. The prophecy is what the name of the child will be, and more specifically, what the state of Israel and Damascus will be once the child is say 5 or 6 years old.

Next, we notice that this "virgin" (who's not really a virgin), spoken of passing in Isaiah 7:14, is no ordinary woman, but that in fact she's Isaiah's wife(!), and that the "child" of which Isaiah is speaking is his own son(!). This is made clear by briefly reading Isaiah 8:1-10. Furthermore, if there is any doubt that Isaiah was comfortable using his own children as "signs" for the entire nation of Israel, the reader need look no further Isaiah 8:18, where Isaiah assures the reader that this is in fact precisely what he is doing.

So the so-called "virgin birth" of Isaiah has precisely *nothing* to do w/ anyone named Jesus...

Every other single last one of the "prophecies" in the OT that allegedly "prophesize" the coming of "Jesus" can be debunked just as easily, if not easier.

The only reason St. Matthew was able to get away w/ this fraud was b/c back then, Bibles were far more rare than they are today. We're what? 500 years into the printing press now? There's no reason for you to continue believing this lie, in this day and age..

Thomas Paine debunked every last one of the OT "prophecies" of Jesus way back in the 1790s.. You'd think people would have learned by now:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/examine_prophecies.html
You are caught up in scientia. You do not know the power of Biblical prophecy. You do not perceive the infinity of every prophecy given. You do not understand that Biblical prophecy is given by Omniscience. It is fulfilled at one stage in part; at another stage in full.

Jesus Christ did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, but the fulfill them. This understanding comes only through Sapentia of the Spirit. It comes with an understanding is the following:

II Epistle of Peter, chap. 1, vv 16-21

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Thomas Paine did nothing but prove his own ignorance and blindness.
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  #15  
Old 10-31-2005, 06:48 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Countdown to World War Three

Quote:
Very informative and interesting post(s), Psholtz. I am a seeker after knowledge and always appreciate well thought out viewpoints. I look forward to your future posts.
I agree. This forum needs people who make you think, even if we do not agree on many things. I welcome your point of view and always check out your posts.
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