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  #41  
Old 11-22-2005, 06:33 PM
Overlord Overlord is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length


I Just want to clarify something about fascism. That goes for Draken and Truebeliev and all the rest of you. But I can't believe I'm doing this.


It's all about Fascism and it's story during the 1900s- Big business had its enormous success due to the expense of the lone citizen and that was a very clearly central characteristic of government policy in Germany and Italy in those years before those countries were really chewed up and puked out by fascism. Fascist dictatorships were borne to power in each of these countries by big business, and they served the interests of big business with some quite remarkable ferocity. These facts have been lost to the main consciousness in todays North America and ..obviously.. Australia... Fascism could therefore return to them NOW, and they will not even recognize it. There is one Huey Long, one of America’s most brilliant and most corrupt politicians, he was once asked if America would ever see fascism. His answer was, “Yes, but we will call it anti-fascism”.

We can see this in disturbing parallels between our own time and that era of more outspoken fascism. Present-day political fashions are leading down the path already trodden by Italy and Germany.

Thurman Arnold, who was head of the Anti-trust Section of the U.S. Department of Justice in 1939 once said:

"Germany presents the logical end of the process of cartelization. From 1923 to 1935 cartelization grew in Germany until finally that nation was so organized that everyone had to belong either to a squad, a regiment or a brigade in order to survive. The names given to these squads, regiments or brigades were cartels, trade associations, unions and trusts. Such a distribution system could not adjust its prices. It needed a general with quasi-military authority who could order the workers to work and the mills to produce. Hitler named himself that general. Had it not been Hitler it would have been someone else.”

Confused? Most of you probably think you know fascism or what it means, stands for.. IS?
Most probably you think it doesn't exist any longer. But if you really try to clearly define it, then you'll most probably not get very far with your explanation, in terms of the politival and economic characteristics of Fascism.

Germany and Italy were so called "liberal democracies" before the rise of F. But F just didn't appear from nowhere, rather it happened at the end of a development that was economic and political while still the countries were democratic. What happende was that the economic power
in these countries were so focused in small tight groups that just a few men really ruled all business, in Germany AND Italy. Economic power, as you know, becomes political power is vast enough. The political powers of that business in Germany AND Italy SUPPORTED Fascism.

How they did it? THe economic powers got a great grip on their countries via economic cartels and business associations/ fellows. THey had immense control over all aspects of business. Tight tight. They controlled pricing, supply, licensing of patent and YOU NAME IT, they controlled it. THey were totally private all these businesses but legal. THere were no effecive antitrust laws in Italy or Germany so what could they do? Somehow, it actually reminds me very much of the bsiness they run in the US, and at times it feels like Europe is going the same way, but much slower. Everybody in business was crying for "self-regulation" and telling pliticians that they could manage themselves. Right... ANd so, in the mid-20s the free market was gone totally, and the economic power had seized "command and control" over the whole.

Many rich people were now in effect ruling the country; Fritz THyssen controlled Germanys coal production, I.G. Farben ruled the industrial trust and chemical plants. Germany had nothing to say against these rich people. Hitler made sure certain taxes were lowered for large businiess while raising small-business-tax. THe living cost for the average family was efectively raised by his repeals of price-ceilings of various essential products. This meant that the middle-class was effectively DESTROYED. No small business-no middle class. That they wre his most adamnt supporters shows what a great propaganda-machine he had at his disposal. But certainly, he knew the power of visual message better thn anyone, being a failed artist.

Hitler illegalizzed Strikes. THis was naturally a dream come true for the big business. Nazi-regulation gave total control over wages and working conditions to the leaders of big business. Nazi regulation also used frewuent "compulsory" (slave) labour. Untermenschen were naturally part of this strategy, to cause acceptance among the supportive middle-class for non-paid workers. Remember "Arbeit Macht Frei".

Same in Italy during the intersection between WWI and WWII. The industrial majors; FIAT and Ansaldo shipping are good examples here but you can find many others. Land ownership was also highly concentrated and impossible to get around. Farming was carried out, through that regime, by landless peasants just like the so called "share-croppers" of the US south.

Mussolini, a ferocious Socialist when young, also used socialist language (just like hitler) to tempt people to trust him and his grand scheme. He even talked about fighitn for a social structure reminscent of a huge coorporation. Specifically, he actually meant for the countrys industry to be sseparated into different "corporazioni", the Italian term. ALl disputes would be resolved within this structure. If they didn't, the fascist state would intervene. The corporazioni were controlled absolutely by ther owners. Mussolini also banned strikes and turned labourers into speechless peasants.

So, the rise of Fascism very much included the aboslute power of a totally free market and powerless workers. This was in all instances facilitated both by Hitler and Mussolini.

There are alarm-bells that should go off regarding our prsent-day US. and other similar markets.
The issue of Freedom for one was also used freely during the twenties to associate free markets and absolute deregulation as a boon for the single citizen. But the use of the state to protect the freedom of the big business, that is fascism! If you want to make up your own definitions about things feel free, but don't be surprised if noone understand what you are talking about.

Neo-liberals often feel the need to allow for violence in order to protect ownership. In order to protect business you need just as large force. One Macdonalds and One Macdonnel DOuglas.
Neo-liberalists want a free for all non regulation to include the state to protect their private interests. This is identical to the politics of Mussolini and Hitler. No fear of big state, only desire to wield its power.

Therefore, in conclusion, we all must see that Fascism comes out of a confused and unclear wish for freedom.

But the benign freedom is applied differently; in the most basic terms it can be put like this:

Individual and good Freedom must not ever mean that another person is less free. If I want to have a right to life, then you must lose the right to kill me.

Clear enough?

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  #42  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:40 PM
Overlord Overlord is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Eh, besides.. Draken..

Just a tip.

If you claim that I'm brain-washed by Marxist-Leninist propaganda when I claim that Fascism and Communism amount to the same kinda hell for the country and the people.. where is your brain at?

It doesn't make ANY sense what you're writing.

You mean that Marxist propaganda claims that Fascism and COmmunism is the same thing?

What is that supposed to mean?
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2005, 05:52 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Quote:
this isn't blueangel right? I don't remember her having such a trash mouth
No.

BA was spelt BlueAngel not BlueAngle.

Such is the deviousness of that particular poster.
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  #44  
Old 11-25-2005, 02:23 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

No, you're confusing two different things I said.

My point is that you get your conception of reality from what you read and see in the mass media, which is totally controlled by the people that adhere to Leftist ideologies. They gained this control after winning WW2, and as a result ALL European countries got a Socialist/Leftist government. The same forces completed the infiltration of America around 1930.

Hence, what you read about Fascism in the mass media of the Communists is ALWAYS going to be disinformation, misrepresentation and lies.

Now, what the Communist mass media does is to hoodwink people who are not willing and/or able to check the sources for themselves into believing that Fascism equals oppression of the people; that Fascism was against the will of the people. The Communist mass media equate Dictatorship with oppression and Democracy with freedom, i.e. they are trying to manipulate people's thinking so that they get an automatic reaction of aversion when they hear the word 'dictatorship' and affection when they hear the word 'democracy'. Everybody loves 'freedom', right? And 'oppression' is bad, right?

The problem is it's got nothing to do with the Truth of Reality. They are manipulating the masses by connecting words that trigger an emotional response to, in this case, the concept of Fascism, without the masses ever having read a single original work from a single original source. This leads to a false conception of Fascism in particular and Reality in general, based on false information.

Hence, BRAINWASHED.

Fascism was nowhere near "the same kinda hell" Communism de facto was and still is but they certainly want people to equate the two, so that they can say what's happening in America "is fascism", for they are SCARED TO DEATH that the people will find out the truth, namely that America is the perfect Communist State and ALL major politicians are in fact self-confessed Marxist-Leninists, Trotskyites and Communists.

Finally, in an oppressive totalitarian system, like the democratic one, it is never the propaganda that fools anyone. The mass media fools only those who want to be fooled, and they want to be fooled because they know that if they knew the truth they would not have the courage to do anything about it anyway. Only those let themselves be fooled who have given up and hence convince themselves that to survive they have to adapt and accept the system.

Now, I don't claim to be an expert on Fascism, but at least I read some original literature and the more I read the more I get convinced accepted mainstream history is a lie. And how do I know what I read is the Truth? I just know. If you don't want to understand I can't and don't want to make you understand. If you have humility and courage, go with an open Heart and learn for yourself.

Ultimately this Quest for Truth is soo not about politics.
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  #45  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:35 AM
Overlord Overlord is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Hm, can't sleep. My leg is hurting like hell. Healing well they say.

Draken, you sure sound like somebody that's taken upon themselves to alter the dictionary.

Sure, my good sir, mean whatever you want ith whatever words you want. Communism is democracy and fascism is..what?

You think I base my opinions on mass-media? My godd sir, this obsession with mass-media is such a phony excuse. If you count any type of scripture mass-media, a book given out in ten copies, single-issue pamphlets originating from the time of the events, please, see the real world instead of stay behind a computer. Go to the research-centers, look at the documents, hold them in your hands... how can that be mass-media? I know I know nothing will perturb the young and faithful. This is the world. There are billions of people with your faith and they all think they are the only ones who see the truth.

Many very destructive leaders also, lke you, base their belief on the "feeling" that they know they are right. They don't care for explanations or simple semantic discourse. And neither do you.

I dunno how the hell you can discuss anything if you just change the meaning of every word into whatever you yourself think it mans.

What the heck, this obsession with truth that you seem to have, there is no such thing, you gotta realize you have a big problem there. If you ramble on about truth and insist that you "just know" as you say, then how can you expect anyone who's coming from a scholarly background and amassed the reading-worth of tens of thousands of books to undersatnd just because you "just know". That's the most hilarious thing to say. To me, that means the opposite; You just "don't know" how to explain it. But you "feel" that it's right.

Hey, tell me then; You mean by your love of fascism that all Jews should be thrown out of your country wherever that may be? All coloured? What else, you as Fascist would do this I gather:

Forbid gay
Forbid abortion
Forbid inter-racial love
Forbid demonstration
Forbid Strike
Forbid Unions
Forbid Uncensored Media
Forbid Art that is not state controlled
Forbid anonymity

You mean that some kinda aristocracy should rule (this is toatlly absurd, everybody knows that a fascist totalitarian leader would and never have allowed the leading aristocracy, by whatever fashion, to survive) via a fascistic state? A state that by your own idea is NOT actually following the scriptures of Mussolini (who described the term together with Giovanni Gentile like this, translated by me from italian "State is not only the authority that governs and molds individual wills with laws & values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad. For a true Fascist, everything is totally within the State and - neither individuals and not any groups are outside of the State... For Fascism as a concept, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative..."

What the hell, that's not very nice, is it? We all know where that will lead.

Or are you saying that Mussolini and Gentile were brainwashed by communist ideas? Perhaps Hitler also was a communist actually.. well, that's my theory - he did cooperate extensively with the communists together with Goebbels who was basically a socialist, but I know that you guys totally ignore this fact because it doesn't suit your hallowed belief.


I think you are very confused, that's what I think. However, if you are around twenty, and I'm pretty sure you are, then you will see that when you get a few years more under your belt, you will see that it's not all that simple.
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  #46  
Old 11-25-2005, 08:44 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Quote:
Hm, can't sleep. My leg is hurting like hell. Healing well they say.

Draken, you sure sound like somebody that's taken upon themselves to alter the dictionary.

Sure, my good sir, mean whatever you want ith whatever words you want. Communism is democracy and fascism is..what?

You think I base my opinions on mass-media? My godd sir, this obsession with mass-media is such a phony excuse. If you count any type of scripture mass-media, a book given out in ten copies, single-issue pamphlets originating from the time of the events, please, see the real world instead of stay behind a computer. Go to the research-centers, look at the documents, hold them in your hands... how can that be mass-media? I know I know nothing will perturb the young and faithful. This is the world. There are billions of people with your faith and they all think they are the only ones who see the truth.

Many very destructive leaders also, lke you, base their belief on the "feeling" that they know they are right. They don't care for explanations or simple semantic discourse. And neither do you.

I dunno how the hell you can discuss anything if you just change the meaning of every word into whatever you yourself think it mans.

What the heck, this obsession with truth that you seem to have, there is no such thing, you gotta realize you have a big problem there. If you ramble on about truth and insist that you "just know" as you say, then how can you expect anyone who's coming from a scholarly background and amassed the reading-worth of tens of thousands of books to undersatnd just because you "just know". That's the most hilarious thing to say. To me, that means the opposite; You just "don't know" how to explain it. But you "feel" that it's right.

Hey, tell me then; You mean by your love of fascism that all Jews should be thrown out of your country wherever that may be? All coloured? What else, you as Fascist would do this I gather:

Forbid gay
Forbid abortion
Forbid inter-racial love
Forbid demonstration
Forbid Strike
Forbid Unions
Forbid Uncensored Media
Forbid Art that is not state controlled
Forbid anonymity

You mean that some kinda aristocracy should rule (this is toatlly absurd, everybody knows that a fascist totalitarian leader would and never have allowed the leading aristocracy, by whatever fashion, to survive) via a fascistic state? A state that by your own idea is NOT actually following the scriptures of Mussolini (who described the term together with Giovanni Gentile like this, translated by me from italian "State is not only the authority that governs and molds individual wills with laws & values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad. For a true Fascist, everything is totally within the State and - neither individuals and not any groups are outside of the State... For Fascism as a concept, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative..."

What the hell, that's not very nice, is it? We all know where that will lead.

Or are you saying that Mussolini and Gentile were brainwashed by communist ideas? Perhaps Hitler also was a communist actually.. well, that's my theory - he did cooperate extensively with the communists together with Goebbels who was basically a socialist, but I know that you guys totally ignore this fact because it doesn't suit your hallowed belief.


I think you are very confused, that's what I think. However, if you are around twenty, and I'm pretty sure you are, then you will see that when you get a few years more under your belt, you will see that it's not all that simple.
I dont know where to begin.

Hope your leg gets better. You have confused us for 15 year old "cutter & pasters". Please stop.

Many of us have read a book or two and spoken to people "in the know". Your tone has improved but you are still condascending which is actually my job on this forum.
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  #47  
Old 11-25-2005, 09:18 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Overlord, I couldn't care less what you think of me.

Exactly what words have I redefined to suite my ideas, according to you?

Quote:
Overlord wrote:
"how can you expect anyone who's coming from a scholarly background and amassed the reading-worth of tens of thousands of books to undersatnd just because you "just know"?"
That quote reminds me of a, let's say "intellectually challenged" girl I once knew: "I'm intelligent - I read books." :-D

Enough said.

Anyway, you have no idea what my background is and how many books I've read - not that that guarantees wisdom. I might be an established historian for all you know.

Keep reading the mass media. It's target population are the masses; hence the name.

BTW, don't answer my question. I won't read it.
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Three things are sacred to me: first Truth, and then, in its tracks, primordial prayer; Then virtue–nobility of soul which, in God walks on the path of beauty. Frithjof Schuon
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  #48  
Old 11-25-2005, 11:21 AM
this this is offline
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Posts: 281
Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Cut and paste time…

TB wrote:
Quote:
Stick to the tone of this thread!
I have no idea what the topic is, am just pissing on fires.

Overloaded wrote:
Quote:
“…how can you expect anyone who's coming from a scholarly background and amassed the reading-worth of tens of thousands of books to undersatnd just because…”

“…but I know that you guys totally ignore this fact because it doesn't suit your hallowed belief.”
It is said that much of university reading is skimming, read the intro carefully, and pay attention to the conclusion. Skim and cherry pick along the way. Otherwise it would take a lifetime or more to read (properly) “tens of thousands of books”

You are about 4 years behind in grasping certain concepts, and it might take you 4 years to realize that. I believe Confuscus said that all the important things aren’t written down. They don’t tell you some of the most important, and possibly subtle things in university. It’s up to you to figure them out, and most won’t. A know it all is even less likely to discover them. Nobody is more deceived than the one who thinks he is so clever.

A couple topics come to mind for our learned one… Benjamin Freedman’s speech of 1961, and ol’ Gramsci:
http://www.clubconspiracy.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1052&forum=2&post_id=16934# forumpost16934

There’s many more topics we discussed before OL dropped by, but none that would interest
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  #49  
Old 11-25-2005, 11:25 AM
this this is offline
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Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

Here OL, learn up why don't cha?

http://www.joelskousen.com/hotissues_news.html
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  #50  
Old 11-25-2005, 09:18 PM
Overlord Overlord is offline
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Posts: 38
Default Re: might as well write a book.. look at the length

That really got everybody going!

Draken pretends he will not answer me and others tells me that I'm a stuck up programmed "scholar".

Look, you guys. If I*m saying I've read 10 000 books, it's not supposed to mean that I'm such a smart ass that I know much better than anyone of you. It means that I need more than what you're giving me.

You give me these devious links that are full of programmation-talk. Look, the link that THIS sent me is basically a front-page "how to control your reader" article. It is written in a classic sectarian bible-format. It starts out describing how everything is not what it seems, insinuating that your normal reading and your normal sources of info are crap (now, I do have to say, Fox and similar Rupert Murdoch-channels are not news, it's entertainment and back-patting for the religous right) and then progresses to insinuate that some channels of info actually are OK. That's BS. NO channel of info whatsoever is OK.

I repeat: No info is unbiased! Your programming from your parents and your upbringing decides what you believe. And then you just search for info that strokes that side of your ego. That's the sad truth. The feeling that you "have come to an understanding" is just the opposite...

you have just come to the fulfilment of what you were brought up to believe.

And Draken, I obviously touched a very sensitive nerve since you don't want to answer me. That's fine. I understand. These are serious issues that you need to think about. Fascism is a very compicated issue, it's not just glorious flags and a fantastic future for you and your ilk, it's hell for so many others. DO you wish hell upon other people?

Just so that you understand, Fascism means that you (if you are a fascist) will subordinate people so that you yourself will be of the elite (if you think you will be elite).

ALso, and this I would really wish to have answered, but Draken refuses... Perhaps Unbeliever, since you seem to have the same supposition?

If you are a stout fascist, what do you intend to do with all the people in the nation-state that are unfit for your regulated state? What about married gay couples? What about mixed couples? What about factory workers that are being abused by their bosses? What about culture workers not getting paid at all? What about journalists getting shut out of work because they disaggree with the party-line? WOuld you allow free speech? Would you allow free love?

Where is the limit for modern-day fascist like you?

Please respond!
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