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  #41  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book


Quote:
igwt wrote:
Isn't it a requirement that you have to believe in God to join the Masonic Org?
It is the requirement that you have a belief in a Supreme Being, meaning you have faith.

Doesn't have to be the god of the bible

Quote:
Introduction

The following information is intended to deal with a topic mentioned in the leaflet 'What is Freemasonry'.

It explains the United Grand Lodge of England's view of the relationship between Freemasonry and religion.

Basic Statement

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.

Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.

The Supreme Being

The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as each sees Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissention among them.

There is no separate Masonic God; a Freemason's God remains the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God.

Volume of the Sacred Law

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry

The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

The physical penalties, which are purely symbolic, do not form part of an Obligation. The commitment to follow the principles of Freemasonry is, however, deep.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion

Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion.

a) it has no theological doctrine, and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic theological doctrine to develop.

b) It offers no sacraments.

c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition and not with salvation.

Freemasonry Supports Religion

Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion
Source

Freemasonry tries to use generic terms so not to favour one faith over another.

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  #42  
Old 11-17-2005, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Now in this you have explained. We take note of you now.
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  #43  
Old 11-17-2005, 11:19 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Biondi,

What you don't understand is that people here think that belonging to a secret society, EVEN IF IT WAS NOT EVIL, is a pathetic thing for an adult to do.

Let's assume that there is no occultist elite running the Masons:

Don't you feel stupid wearing your apron and your regalia, taking idiotic oaths ? Wouldn't you be ashamed if your wife saw you in those ceremonies ? Don't you think you look like Fred Flintstone with that big hat of his brotherhood ? Do you need to get into a brotherhoof to have friends ? Can't you discuss philosophy with friends enjoying a capuccino ?

What else can say: Get a real life !

Now if you add to that ridiculous behavior the smallest possibility that you are being used by the higher ranks, why would any healthy person be a Mason ?
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  #44  
Old 11-17-2005, 12:07 PM
Barbara Barbara is offline
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Their silly regalia and their stupid mumbo jumbo are likely two of the major reasons all their meetings are held in secret, Saturnino. :-D

The third being that they are traitorous bastards who are selling out their country and their people for a bowl of pottage, if that.

Probably, as children, their mothers had to tie a pork chop around their necks to get the dogs to play with them. Now they've finally found a niche.
__________________
I hate it when they say, "He gave his life for his country." Nobody gives their life for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. We take it away from them. They don't die for the honor and glory of their country. We kill them."-- Admiral Gene LaRocque
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  #45  
Old 11-18-2005, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:

What you don't understand is that people here think that belonging to a secret society, EVEN IF IT WAS NOT EVIL, is a pathetic thing for an adult to do.
So where does Freemasonry come into this? Freemasonry has not been a secret organisation since 1717.

Most masonic sites state when their meetings are, all you have to do is phone a lodge and they will tell you when they meet. Most halls are clearly marked.

Wheres the secret.

In the meetings you all know that there is either a role play done, a talk given and just normal general business that you get in every meeting, minutes, correspondance matters arising.

Still wheres the secret?

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Let's assume that there is no occultist elite running the Masons:

Don't you feel stupid wearing your apron and your regalia, taking idiotic oaths ? Wouldn't you be ashamed if your wife saw you in those ceremonies ? Don't you think you look like Fred Flintstone with that big hat of his brotherhood ? Do you need to get into a brotherhoof to have friends ? Can't you discuss philosophy with friends enjoying a capuccino ?
No I do not feel stupid wearing my regalia, my wife was the first to see me in it, and she is fully aware of what goes on. The lodge met my wife and told her what goes on and she had to say she didn't mind before they would let me petition.

Fred Flinstone, theres no animal skin and no hats in my lodge so no. Although some American lodges do have head gear worn by the WM.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
What else can say: Get a real life !
My life is real, Freemasonry is simply a part of it.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Now if you add to that ridiculous behavior the smallest possibility that you are being used by the higher ranks, why would any healthy person be a Mason ?
Possibility is an endless argument, that can be placed to anything.

The smallest possibility the Christian faith is not the true teachings of Christ, but the spin of Paul.

The smallest possibility the public school is merely a brainwash exercise for local governments.

The smallest possibility John Elway was actually a good quarter back.

I live my life with facts, black and white truths, paranoia, conspiracy, half truths, outright lies do not really factor highly.
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  #46  
Old 11-18-2005, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Quote:
Barbara wrote:
Their silly regalia and their stupid mumbo jumbo are likely two of the major reasons all their meetings are held in secret, Saturnino. :-D
They are not held in secret, they are conducted like any other meeting, where matters of business are discussed.

Try and sit it on any business meeting, they are all done behind closed doors.

As for the closed doors for ritual, the regalia, and the so called mumbo jumbo, it is all tradition, like most ceremonies carried out any where.

Quote:
Barbara wrote:
The third being that they are traitorous bastards who are selling out their country and their people for a bowl of pottage, if that.
I am loyal to queen and country long before Freemasonry, and it is something I took an oath to do the first time I was in lodge.

You really should read all the comments made cause the you would know, and I wouldn't have to keep writing the same stuff over and over again.

The Oath you take regarding loyalties etc is the first one you take as an EA, in which you swear in this order

1) Your Faith
2) Your soveriegn, ie King, Queen, President etc
3) The Law of the Land
4) Your wife, family and dependants
5) Freemasonry.

And before you go on to say, "Yer but when your a 32nd"

If you break an oath it is hardly a good sign that you'll keep another one.

Quote:
Barbara wrote:
Probably, as children, their mothers had to tie a pork chop around their necks to get the dogs to play with them. Now they've finally found a niche.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not heard that one before.

We're childish and need to grow because we wear regalia, :-o

Last time I heard name calling like that was in a playground ages about 12.

Don't forget to do your homework babs! :-x
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  #47  
Old 11-18-2005, 04:18 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Bondi,

You are free to live your life the way you want. If you don't want to believe the obvious, that Masonry is antidemocratic, dishonest and a tool for the occultist elite, what can we do ? We've reached a stalemate.

You will keep going to your meetings and we will keep fighting against your organization.

Anyway, thanks for being civil.
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  #48  
Old 11-18-2005, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

You are free to live your life the way you want.
Be sure that I do. I live my life by my choices and no one esles.

I will be judged by my creator and no one else.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
If you don't want to believe the obvious, that Masonry is antidemocratic, dishonest and a tool for the occultist elite, what can we do ? We've reached a stalemate.
It is not that I do not want to believe, it is a case of I am a Freemason, of rank to answer any question you care to ask. I know all the rituals and all the requirements and what you claim just isn't there.

Antidemocratic, it is non-political.

I cannot disagree that you will find dishonest Freemasons, which in my opinion means they are not a Freemason. It takes more than wearing an apron and quoting lines to be a Freemason, and trust me there are plenty of Freemasons I would like to remind of this.

Freemasonry is treated like a club, a leg up facilitator by many Freemasons, but I assure you they are in the major minority and Freemasonry will not have it.

You will find it happens in particular lodges, and not in Freemasonry in general, and if I had my way those lodges would be closed and those masons forced to demit as that is not what Freemasonry is.

There are more Freemasons like me than not, but unfortunately because I do not meet your stereotype I will be the Freemason you forget.

If people like those that post on forums like these would merely believe masons like me and realise the actions you speak of and the characteristics you adhere to masonry is a manoirty and Freemasons want them out of Freemasonry as much as you. You would have a bigger chance of succeeding, not in destroying Freemasonry, but to quote a common book, the "enemy within". Which equates to selfish and self motivated individuals that unfortunately any group fails to keep out.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
You will keep going to your meetings and we will keep fighting against your organization.
last paragraph above covers this.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:Anyway, thanks for being civil.
And the same to the majority of the posters here, in the end.

I am only too happy to talk Freemasonry, so you can have a true interpretation of Freemasonry. not the minority splinter groups, the "irregular" factions and the basic arses that have managed to join.

Then maybe people like yourself, and Freemasonry together, would be able to solve the issues you have with the fraternity.

Attack is not always the best form of defense. Knowledge is the true power, and the knowledge is no secret.
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  #49  
Old 11-18-2005, 06:49 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Posts: 624
Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Bondi,

I have a good friend who used to be 32 degree Mason. He eventually received Christ and left Masonry for its incompatibility with the faith. He is as good as anyone can be. He said he never saw Luciferianism there, only the regular occultist lore and the ceremonies. I believe in him. On the other hand, he said that there was a wall separating the people from the 33 degree, that only some special privileged people would receive the degree, that it could not be earned.

Therefore, I believe you probably have good intentions, like my friend had. Maybe your lodge is all about philantropy and nothing more. I think it is possible that some lodges are not in the overall scheme, just because there are so many of them and it is impossible to control them all.

But I also believe you are only seeing, like the story goes, the tail of the elephant and you are calling it a snake.

I hope you consider the testimonies of higher rank Masons who left the lodge, and especially read Masonry Beyond the Light, from Bill Schonebelen. God has a way to show people of good heart what is wrong: I pray He will eventually show it to you. Sometimes those things have to happen with us so we believe.
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  #50  
Old 11-18-2005, 07:23 AM
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Default Re: Excerpt From Brice Taylor's Book

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

I have a good friend who used to be 32 degree Mason.
You are talking about the Scottish Rite, and from your location that would be American style. Things are done alot differently around the world. You have to remember Freemasonry is global.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
He eventually received Christ and left Masonry for its incompatibility with the faith.
I have no problem with this, and Freemasonry will actually encourage you to leave it you feel it condradicts your faith in any way.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
He is as good as anyone can be. He said he never saw Luciferianism there, only the regular occultist lore and the ceremonies. I believe in him.
Depends what you mean by Occultist, Occult in its basic form merely means hidden. To which effeect any symbol is Occult by nature.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
On the other hand, he said that there was a wall separating the people from the 33 degree, that only some special privileged people would receive the degree, that it could not be earned.
I am afraid it is the other way round, you can only earn the 33rd degree. Being a 32nd degree mason in the Scottish Rite is no great achievement, you can do it in a day and there is no selction procedure, you just need to be a Master Mason.

As for wall, I presume you mean that figuratively and that is all it is. The same as there is a figurative wall between the different ranks of clergy. There are meetings that only bishops and above can attend, in rome how many have the right to vote for the new pope. These kind of things are everywhere you find hierarchy.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Therefore, I believe you probably have good intentions, like my friend had.
Is it so hard to believe that most Freemasons are, and those that are "bad" are in such a minority there is no way they have a hold of the whole.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Maybe your lodge is all about philantropy and nothing more. I think it is possible that some lodges are not in the overall scheme, just because there are so many of them and it is impossible to control them all.
The size of Freemasonry itself would make it impossible for it to be a conspiracist organisation. I have admitted that you will find lodges that are not masonic in nature and simple wear the aprons, there are many that talk the talk, that cannot walk the walk. We want them out as much as you do.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
But I also believe you are only seeing, like the story goes, the tail of the elephant and you are calling it a snake.
This is quite possible, but that also works both ways. I never understand how conspiracy theorist find it so irrational that someone involved with it knows more than they do?

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
I hope you consider the testimonies of higher rank Masons who left the lodge,
I wont find a Freemason who holds a higher rank than me.

Quote:
and especially read Masonry Beyond the Light, from Bill Schonebelen. God has a way to show people of good heart what is wrong: I pray He will eventually show it to you. Sometimes those things have to happen with us so we believe.
Like i said before the issue is not of those who leave or oppose the craft for religious grounds. I commend that action as you need to be true to your faith above all else.

My faith is not yours though, so maybe your issues with me should be regarding my faith and not regarding my memberships?
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