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  #21  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:18 AM
Marsali Marsali is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid


Mentioning James 5:12 is a cop out, Bondi. We're not discussing Christianity here, were discussing the Masonic religion, remember?

In regards to my showing that there is a difference between the terms invoking and promising, your asking me which is ok to do? You're supposed to be answering that question, remember? By constantly throwing questions back, you're evading the questions.

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  #22  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:19 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Those oaths are basically a way of taking the name of God in vain, if you use His name, or putting yourself under someone else's authority, which is worse.

A Christian belongs to Jesus Christ. When he takes an oath, he basicaly commits himself to another person or institution and puts his allegiance before Christ. That's why a Christian should never take oaths.
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:25 AM
Bouncer Bouncer is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

"Invoke" can mean more than one thing: it has the traditional denotation of "To call upon for prayer or worship"; it can also mean "To summon a presence for a ritual or a specific purpose of the priest."

The latter meaning usually is the one used in occult practices, as in the invocation of Asmoday, etc. If this is truly the intention of the Freemason rituals then I would caution anyone not to open the door to demonic pacts or interplay of spirits.

On the other hand, if I had no knowlegde of Christ I would consider membership in a lodge very worthwhile and valuable.
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:26 AM
Marsali Marsali is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Well-said, SAT. But of course a Mason would probably say that they do put their allegience in Jesus and God. But not only Jesus and God, of course.
Hiram Abiff will do as well, ar Allah; there's not much distinction.
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:30 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Those oaths are basically a way of taking the name of God in vain, if you use His name, or putting yourself under someone else's authority, which is worse.
The word God is never used in lodge. Due to the fact the Freemasonry is not, or a replacement for, religion they use a generic term so if a prayer is said each mason is saying a prayer to his god, whether he be christian, muslim, jew or whatever.

Now the use of a generic term is Freemasonry's way of saying you believe in who you want to believe in, just be true to that faith. This may be wrong in some peoples eyes, and you can twist it, not saying you as you personally, to make it seem they are prayer to some weirdo make believe god, but each mason knows who he is praying to. A Christian Mason, as far as he is concerned, is praying to the same God as you.

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
A Christian belongs to Jesus Christ. When he takes an oath, he basicaly commits himself to another person or institution and puts his allegiance before Christ. That's why a Christian should never take oaths.
Does the President, a doctor, a lawyer, a court judge, police officer and many more not swear an oath.

To serve and protect at all that?

As example in England

The Head of State is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and “Defender of the Faith”. The Coronation Oath sworn by the new Monarch is profoundly Christian.

The Church of England and the Church of Scotland are also ‘by law established’.

Christian oaths are taken by MPs, others in public life and by witnesses in a Court.
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:36 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
Marsali wrote:
Well-said, SAT. But of course a Mason would probably say that they do put their allegience in Jesus and God.
I do not, but that is not my faith, a christian mason does.

Quote:
Marsali wrote:
But not only Jesus and God, of course.
Hiram Abiff will do as well
Learn who he is, and what allusions are made to him and you will realise how stupid that comment is.

Quote:
Marsali wrote:
, ar Allah; there's not much distinction.
There is only Allah to a Muslim mason.

There is no religion in Freemasonry, it is no substitute, has no road to salvation and has no religious doctrine to speak of.

It is simple a requirement, to have a faith, before you can join.

If it was it's own religion why would it only allow those who already have one to join. Wouldn't make sense, they'd lose more members than they kept.

Like the White Nationalist Party only admitted coloured people.

At least think about what your writing.
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:38 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Bondi,

You are again being evasive. Those oaths of "telling the truth" are not allegiance oaths. They don't put you under the authority of anybody. Very different from:

"...binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my breast torn open, my heart plucked out and placed on the highest pinnacle of the temple, there to be devoured by the vultures of the air."

- oath taken by 2nd degree Masons

A Christian says he will tell the truth because of his character and because he represents Jesus on earth, not because of fear of atrocities.

Bondi, I can't believe you don't see the difference.
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:54 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Bondi,

You are again being evasive. Those oaths of "telling the truth" are not allegiance oaths. They don't put you under the authority of anybody. Very different from:

"...binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my breast torn open, my heart plucked out and placed on the highest pinnacle of the temple, there to be devoured by the vultures of the air."

- oath taken by 2nd degree Masons
That depends on what ritual you read?

And prior to any obligation is taken the lodge makes a vow to you

Quote:
WM: Brother ____, before you can proceed further in Freemasonry, it will be necessary for you to take an Obligation appertaining to this degree. It becomes my duty, as well as pleasure, to inform you, that there is nothing contained in the Obligation that conflicts with the duties you owe to God, your country, your neighbor, your family, or yourself. With this assurance on my part, are you willing to take the Obligation?
Firstly if anything of Freemasonry goes against, your faith, country, neighbour, family of yourself, the obligation becomes null and void.

What you obligate yourself to do is

Quote:
keep and conceal and never reveal any of the secrets belonging to the Degree of Fellow Craft
Which in short, is two words, two grips and a posture.

The obligation is in the form of a promise

Quote:
I do promise and swear
Not to god, merely on the merit of your own word.

This is why I do not see a difference. I've taken the oaths, I've been reading the rituals a long time and yes you can twist and read extra into them all day long, but in reality it depends what is in the heart of the man taking it, and what it means to him.

Quote:
A Christian says he will tell the truth because of his character and because he represents Jesus on earth, not because of fear of atrocities.
Like I said the penalties are symbolic, the same as the childrens rhyme I qouted, but this seems to be side stepped and ignored.

A mason obligates himself by his WORD, by his saying "I will not tell" and to emphasise the strength of his word symbolically says if I break my word you can punish me, it is not meant as Freemasonry saying if you leak the info we'll do this to you, it is the Freemason saying I am true to my word that if I were to leak the info you could do this.

The obligation is taken parrot fashion, in the present tense. It is all "I" and not "You" basic grammer denotes this is the person and not the Fraternity.

Quote:
Bondi, I can't believe you don't see the difference.
Like I said above, I see no difference. You swear on a bible, you are swearing to the Christian god, and according to a previous comment, anything other than a Yes or No is not allowed.

If what the previous person has said is wrong, fair enough. If my interpretation of what they are saying is wrong fair enough, but the let your yes be yes, to me, means give your word by your own character, and don't use the name of god to emphasise it.

Freemasons don't, for sure I can't I'm not a Christian so how, or why, I would swear using that I do not know.

I am accused of being evasive, because I can't answer a question that is not correct.

The obligation of a Freemason is not one of allegiance, but a mans word not to let the secrets out, it binds you to nothing else.

It is the information I give that is evaded and ignored.
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  #29  
Old 11-21-2005, 04:54 AM
igwt igwt is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Interesting site.

Temple Of The Golden Throne
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  #30  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

It's nice to read alternates.

Never seen the 6 pointed star used to show the seal reading an acronym for Shriners. Normally they go for the easy one of re-arranging the letters to spell Mason.
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