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  #11  
Old 03-17-2005, 05:36 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq


<quote>
Crucifixion = the victim mentality = Instilling fear, and playing on the people's emotions to make them idolize the poor tortured man. <end quote>

Ahmad, crucifixion is exactly the opposite of fear for a Christian. It means that Jesus paid for our sins, so you don`t have to fear judgement. That`s why I asked you about your assurance of salvation, which you said you don`t have. So, who is living in fear, me or you ?

<quote>
Trinity = God has partners in His kingship, does He?

Return of Jesus = why, mission not finished?
<end quote>

Jesus mission was not finished. He broke the curse of sin and death and offered a way to salvation. He will come back one day, when He decides, and then wrap up the whole situation. He is God, and He has the right to decide when things happen, how many people He wants to save, etc.

<quote>

The idea of sombody (a total stranger) dying to carry your sins is not logical, YOU and nobody but YOU are responsible for your sins, there is no escape from that responsbility, your Jinn companion is playing a dirty trick on you in order to give you an open excuse to commit sins since you have been redeemed already!
<end quote>

First, Jesus is not a total stranger, He is God. And here we have the FOCUS point of this discussion. If I am responsible for my sins, then I (and you) have to go to hell, for everybody has sinned. Haven`t you ever sinned Ahmad ? How do you reconcile your sins with the holiness of God ? They are not compatible. We desperately need Jesus forgiveness because we are not worthy to face God in our sinful state.

About the Jinn (demon) telling me to sin, all I can say is that any demon fears the name of Jesus most than anything. Also, the Bible is clear that we are not supposed to go on sinning. It is Romans, very clear. Jesus also said: your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more.


<quote>
This life is the final chance of redemtion, a make up test, it is easy to say " I have passed already, i am just taking the exam out of gratitude!" but nothing can change the reality of the test, everybody id thoroughly tested in his daily life, will you submit to God alone, steadfastly persevere (infornt of temptation and hardships) or will you yield to Satan's control? accepting Jesus as your savior (against his will) is equal to rejecting God, choosing Satan as a master and following him to the inferno.
<end quote>

Again, that's the point. You will fail the test, because you (and me) are a sinner. When you die and face God, he will ask you if you should enter heaven because of your deeds. then you will say that you did your Jihaad the best way you could. Then God will show a thousand sins that you commited that make you guilty and say you are not worthy of heaven, for heaven requires purity.

Ahmad, usually people won`t accept Jesus because they are too proud to admit that they are hopeless sinners and that there is no amount of good deeds and works that will purify them. Think about it and check if this is not the case. That was my problem too. It took God a heavy hand, a real feeling of my sinfulness in order to make me accept the sacrifice of Him for me.

Even if you never accept Jesus, think about it: all the religions of the world require some sort of work in order to get to heaven. Christianity is the only one based on forgiveness. If ever you come to think that you need this forgiveness, you know where to look for it.

All the best,

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  #12  
Old 03-17-2005, 07:38 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

Peace,



"usually people won`t accept Jesus because they are too proud to admit that they are hopeless sinners and that there is no amount of good deeds and works that will purify them."


You talk about sin as if it's an unremovable stain!, nobody is hopless Except if he wants to be!

Most of the corrupt religions have this idea about "the dirty soul that cannot be washed" ! the muslims actually say exactly the same albeit they replaced Jesus with Muhammad and the saints.

I have news to you Marcos, we were all born with a weak part of ourselves that we developed in Heaven (when we had doubts that God alone is the Source of all power; skill, knowledge, beauty, absolute values, looks, provisions...etc) our egos developed as a result of accepting Satan's idea that the creatures (forbidden tree, Jesus, materials things, saints..etc are the source of their power). The creatures that refused to accept Satan's blasphemy were categorized as "the angels", as for those who leaned strongly towards Satan were classified as the Jinn-beings, God then offered the remaining minority of rebels another chance of redemption, all the creatures in the Heavens and the earth (mountains, planets, animals, plants, to the smallest atom) accepted to serve a limited period of time (doing submissive roles like the animals, dogs, sun and moon) in order to redeem their doubts. The only creatures who refused and decided to watch a demonstration of Satan's idea was the ignorant human.

God then created this earth and sent Satan along with the rebels to watch a live demonstration of satan's ability (that he claimed) to turn God creation into independent powers, what is importanty is that the record starts from ZERO, God forgave us all (along with Adam and his wife) because of the sin of the forbidden tree (which is actually a symbol of relating powers to the creatures instead of God, in the case of the tree Satan claimed that it can give eternal life "on its own"), why did God forgive us that time! because we implored Him for forgivness, on earth we start from zero sins.

Whenever the God-revering people sin, they remember God immediately and ask for forgivness, and the Most Merciful forgives as He wills. As simple as that, then we may yield again unknowingly to Satan's control and start bonding with the creatures instead of God (by depending on them) but God forgives.

The only unforgivable sin is "idolworship" which is the state of totally believing that the creatures (men and things) are capable "on their own" of granting any benefit or causing harm, or believing that their skills, beauty, knowledge, powers are from them and not from God. If this changes from a temporariy state to a permenant state and if we die on that state, we are promised the retribution of the inferno (allegorical description).

Furthermore all the idol-worshipers are promised that their idols will bring them misery and hardships in this life as well, a small example is someone who idolizes money, as he depends on it phsycologically (for security) it will take him with it up and down causing misery and ever increasing despair in his heart, why? because the link between the money (unstable, powerless) and God was severed by the money-worshiper.

There is no such "perfect, purer than me" soul, we are all fallible, we all err, Jesus had his sins, believe it or not!

You can be better than Jesus, how ? by overcoming your sinful lusts, by not being afraid of anybody or anything, by not being obsessed with anything, by keeping your heart God-centered.

You are resposnible.

[4:48] GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.




[3:31] Proclaim: "If you love GOD, you should follow me." GOD will then love you, and forgive your sins. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.



-----------------------------------------------------
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
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  #13  
Old 03-17-2005, 09:53 AM
marypopinz marypopinz is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

"He is much too glorious to have a son."

I'm not buying this remark.

God has many children, many sons and many daughters. God can do anything and jesus could very well be God's only son. Only God and Jesus know that fact for certain and the rest of us may live in hope.

My opinion.
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  #14  
Old 03-17-2005, 03:41 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

Ahmad,

I believe Jesus never sinned. This is the precondition for him to be the perfect Lamb, the perfect substitute sacrifice.

And about the possibility of being less of a sinner than Jesus, I know for a fact that this will not be true for me or anybody else. People do and think bad things ALL the time. My friend, you and me, we both sinned probably hundreds of times today. We are proud, we are vain, we want to have our way.

Once I met a Budhist monk and told him that I didn`t need his religion because Christ had paid my karma for me, and that he should accept his forgiveness too. He was really mad (a sign of sin) and told me he didn`t need forgiveness because he was a monk...how people live in dellusion. Talk about the sin of pride.

It seems you think that I want to be off the hook, that this forgiveness gives me license to do anything I want. But it is quite the contrary. Once you receive Jesus as Savior, the Holy Spirit of God gets a grip on you, and when you sin, you feel really bad. I mean, ten times worse than before. Also, you always end up screwed. An unbeliever may steal 10 times and never get caught, but a Christian will steal once and God will make sure He will get caught and pay. I`ve seen this happen often. I tell you, life gets more difficult in this aspect. I firmly believe that gross, constant, unrepented sin from a Christian can even lead to death by the hands of God. In the book of Romans, Paul says that forgiveness is NOT an excuse for sin.

Ahmad, only the Holy Spirit can reveal this need of forgiveness and our inability to go to heaven by our deeds. This is the KEY to salvation, because there is no salvation without repentance. I pray He shows it to you.

Thanks for the gentlemanly discussion.
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  #15  
Old 03-17-2005, 04:00 PM
get_real get_real is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

"God is a state of life that has nothing to do with religion"

Ahmad--

You said, "usually people won't accept Jesus because they are too proud...."

Again,you sound like a salesman trying to tell me what I need and what I need to do.

No offense Ahmad--- but at times it sounds like you take advantage of this subject, because you can twist it well, and try to reduce someone to a level of total idiot.

I cannot understand how anyone who lives their life to the best of their ability, a clean life, not kill anyone, not steal, not harm their family or neighbor, be rejected by God. (?)

No, Ahmad, in my heart I feel that if this God is a good God, he will not let any of his sheep wonder off. He will find them, and bring them home. YOU do not have to do that for anyone. And I don't have to submit to anything that 'man' tells me about God.
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  #16  
Old 03-18-2005, 03:57 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

Peace,


All i can say is that God have sent us a written message from outer space, that message has a clear warning against idolizing Jesus. In 1974 a purifying messenger (Rashad Khalifa) was sent to give us a confirmation, 19, of all the truths in the scriptures, as well as purify the religion of God from the satanic injections. If you have doubts about this message, please verify the proof for yourself, the proof confirms that Quran (that is ironically never used by the muslims) is God's final message to you.

------------------------------------------------

Appendix 22
of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa

Also it is FAQ # 9
Jesus, the Quranic view.
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

The Quran, informs us that Jesus was a human messenger of God whose sole mission was to deliver God's message; he never possessed any power, and is now dead (4:171, 5:75, 117).
Those who consider Jesus to be God, or Son of God, or part of a trinity are "pagans" (5:17, 72, 73). Outstanding Christian scholars have reached these same conclusions (THE MYTH OF GOD INCARNATE, John Hick, ed., The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977 & THE MYTH MAKER, Hyam Maccoby,Harper & Row 1986). Christianity is the product of Nicene (AD 325).
The Bible's Jesus

Jesus proclaimed aloud: ``Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; ..... For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.'' [ John 12:44-50 ]

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

Jesus said: ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me.'' [ John 7:16 ]

"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials. These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know."
[ Acts 2:22 ]

``...The man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life.''
[ John 5:24 ]

"Whoever welcomes me welcomes, not me, but him who sent me."
[ Matthew 10:40, Mark 9:37, Luke 9:48, & John 13:20 ]

``...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I come; he sent me.'' [ John 7:28-29 ]

Jesus looked up to heaven and said, ``...Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.'' [ John 17:1-3 ]

All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
[ Romans 8:14 ]

Jesus looked upward and said, ``Father, I thank you for having heard me. I know that you always hear me but I have said this for the sake of the crowd, that they may believe that you sent me.''
[ John 11:41-42 ]

As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, ``Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?'' Jesus answered, ``Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'' [ Mark 10:17-18 ]

``None of those who call me `Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
[ Matthew 7:21 ]

``...Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' '' [ John 20:17 ]

``God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[ Quran 3:51, 19:36, & 43:64 ]

Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that God is one in essence but three in ``person,'' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such,
appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ``Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one'' (Deut. 6:4).
[ Encyclopedia Britannica, 1975 ]
Jesus' Death

This has been the single most controversial subject in the world. The Quran's miraculous mathematical code has now provided the final answer to this topic:

Jesus' soul was raised, i.e., he was put to death prior to the arrest and crucifixion of his body. Thus, his persecutors arrested, tortured, and crucified an empty body - Jesus was already gone to the world of souls (3:55, 4:157).

They plotted and schemed, but so did God, and God is the best schemer. Thus, God said,
``O Jesus, I am putting you to death, and raising you to Me; I will save you from the disbelievers.''
[ Quran 3:54-55 ]

They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God! In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified him; they were led to believe that they did.
[ Quran 4:157 ]

Mercifully, God has given our generation a living example of a person whose soul departed this world, but his body continued to live for 19 months. On November 25, 1984, doctors at the Humana Hospital of Louisville, Kentucky removed the diseased heart of Mr. William Schroeder and replaced it with a plastic and metal pump (THE NEW YORK TIMES, Monday, November 26, 1984).

On the 19th day after this historic operation - Thursday, December 13, 1984 - Mr. Schroeder, the soul, the real person, departed this world. Mr. Schroeder died. But his body continued to function with the artificial heart implanted in his body. The world was told that he "probably suffered a stroke" (THE NEW YORK TIMES, December 14, 1984).

Significantly, only one day before Mr. Schroeder's departure, he talked with President Ronald Reagan on national TV, and demanded that the Social Security Administration send his overdue check. He was
perfectly alert. From the moment "he suffered a stroke," he did not recognize the day or time, nor his family members. In fact, Mr.Schroeder was no longer in this world.
The Gospels state clearly that the arrested body of Jesus was oblivious to the events surrounding it: The chief priests, meanwhile, brought many accusations against Jesus. Pilate interrogated him again: "Surely you have some answer? See how many accusations they are leveling against you."
But greatly to Pilate's surprise, Jesus made no further response. [ Mark 15:3-5 ]
Herod was extremely pleased to see Jesus. From the reports about him he had wanted for a long time to see him, and he was hoping to see him work some miracles. He questioned Jesus at considerable length, but Jesus made no response. The chief priests and scribes were at hand to accuse him vehemently. Herod and his guards then treated him with contempt and insult. [ Luke 23:8-11 ]

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is the fleshly part. [Apocalypse of Peter, VII, 3, 81] from THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY (Harper & Row, 1977, James M.Robinson, ed, Page 339).

The facts that
(1) Mr. Schroeder's soul departed on the 19th day after the operation, and
(2) his body survived for 19 months, are uncanny reminders that God wanted the world to know the parallel between Schroeder's situation, and the proven account of Jesus' departure prior to the arrest, torture, and crucifixion of his soulless body.

Rashad Khalifa
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  #17  
Old 03-20-2005, 12:33 AM
landownunder landownunder is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

Ahmad,

With all due respect i think you have carried this issue away from the actual topic, which was about the shiites flogging themselves.Very sad indeed.God doesnt need anyone to castrate themselves in such a manner to show him obedience and love.Not islam by any means.

Also about the tsunami and the lesson,if this was a sign for christianity why were the majority who suffered in that event muslims?

Natural disasters have been happening for centuries in many places.Natural disasters are not prejudice, they dont ask people for relgion or racial identity.

However we may say it is a sign from God for all to see and remember that we will also die one day.Whether you die in a plane crash, a natural death, a big natural disaster it is still death.Some die a more horrific death sleeping in their beds...
I am myself a muslim and i dont agree with you, making your views as sub topics under topics which have nothing related.You start a topic and then carry it away somewhere else.
If you want to preach a certain idea please start another topic and heading so people are not mislead.the 19 issue is deffinately a topic which doesnt interest me..
Thankyou
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  #18  
Old 03-20-2005, 03:04 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

Salamun Alaykum,
(Peace be unto you)


landownunder: "If you want to preach a certain idea please start another topic and heading so people are not mislead."


Marcos was the one who started the Jesus' talk, and it is my duty to respond accordingly,

Santurino said: "I know you don`t accept the forgiveness thru the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins. Therefore, I have a question : how do you ever know how much work or obedience or prayers, or knowledge (this goes to the gnostics too) is ENOUGH to get you to heaven ?"

-------------
landownunder: "Also about the tsunami and the lesson,if this was a sign for christianity why were the majority who suffered in that event muslims?"


The majority were muslims indeed, Indonesia the worst hit country is the largest muslim country in the world. I say in my article (Another Noah's flood, why in Christams?) that it was a punishment for the muslims because of their following the unauthorized Hadith books instead of Quran.


--------------
landownunder: "Natural disasters have been happening for centuries in many places.Natural disasters are not prejudice, they dont ask people for relgion or racial identity."


Well, they have been happening for centuries, but only a few took them seriously and heeded the message. There are no coincidences whatsoever in this world, there is only blind people.

---------------
landownunder: "the 19 issue is deffinately a topic which doesnt interest me."


The 19 issue can cost you eternity! God describes the guilty that they will run away from his reminder (19) like zebras fleeing from a lion. How could you dismiss a subject without acquiring knowledge about it first!


---
---
19
---
---

A Warning to the Human race

God clarified to us its function in chapter 74 of Quran titled (The Hidden Secret) translated by Rashad Khalifa:

[74:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[74:1] O you hidden secret.

[74:2] Come out and warn.

[74:3] Extol your Lord.

[74:4] Purify your garment.

[74:5] Forsake what is wrong.

[74:6] Be content with your lot.

[74:7] Steadfastly commemorate your Lord.
*74:1 God's infinite wisdom willed to reveal the Quran through Muhammad, while the Quran's awesome 19-based mathematical miracle was revealed through God's Messenger of the Covenant 1406 lunar years after revelation of the Quran (1406=19x74 & 1974 AD was the Solar Year of discovery). In retrospect, we realize that the whole sura refers to the Quran's 19-based miracle (Appendix 1 & 2 ).

*74:4 Quran is the garment containing the secret code. This refers to removing 9:128-129. Rashad khalifa


[74:8] Then, when the horn is blown.

[74:9] That will be a difficult day.

[74:10] For the disbelievers, not easy.

[74:11] Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.

[74:12] I provided him with lots of money.

[74:13] And children to behold.

[74:14] I made everything easy for him.

[74:15] Yet, he is greedy for more.

[74:16] He stubbornly refused to accept these proofs.

[74:17] I will increasingly punish him.

[74:18] For he reflected, then decided.

[74:19] Miserable is what he decided.

[74:20] Miserable indeed is what he decided.

[74:21] He looked.

[74:22] He frowned and whined.

[74:23] Then he turned away arrogantly.

[74:24] He said, "This is but clever magic!

[74:25] "This is human made."

[74:26] I will commit him to retribution.

[74:27] What retribution!

[74:28] Thorough and comprehensive.

[74:29] Obvious to all the people.

The Quran's Common Denominator

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

[74:32] Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.

[74:33] And the night as it passes.

[74:34] And the morning as it shines.

One of the Great Miracles

[74:35] This is one of the great miracles.

[74:36] A warning to the human race.

[74:37] For those among you who wish to advance, or regress.

[74:38] Every soul is trapped by its sins.

[74:39] Except for those on the right.

[74:40] While in Paradise, they will ask.

[74:41] About the guilty.

[74:42] "What brought you to this retribution?"

[74:43] They will say, "We did not observe the contact prayers (Salat).

[74:44] "We did not feed the poor.

[74:45] "We blundered with the blunderers.

[74:46] "We disbelieved in the Day of Judgment.

[74:47] "Until certainty came to us now." *74:30-35 This ``One of the great miracles'' provides the first physical evidence that the Quran is God's message to the world. This 19-based miracle is detailed in Appendix 1.

[74:48] The intercession of the intercessors will never help them.

[74:49] Why are they so averse to this reminder?

[74:50] Running like zebras.

[74:51] Who are fleeing from the lion!

[74:52] Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally?

[74:53] Indeed, they do not fear the Hereafter.

[74:54] Indeed, this is a reminder.

[74:55] For those who wish to take heed.

[74:56] They cannot take heed against GOD's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness.
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  #19  
Old 03-21-2005, 01:48 AM
landownunder landownunder is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

Ahmad,

I take your reason for the topic diversion.
Sorry for not reading more carefully.


Also,I have not denied the ayat of 19."Aleyha Tis'ata Ashar". Among them are 19.
However the topic does not interest me because
,I do not need to indulge my self with mathematical equations to Beleive the Kur'an is the word of God.

Just answer me this.. Rashid Khalifa has anounced the last 2 verses of Surah Tevbe as not being part of the Kur'an because it doesnt fit in with his 19 equations,so for 1400 years people have been reading a Kur'an which has been incorrect?
What kind of a God was it that sent a book and couldnt protect it for 1400 hundred years like he says in another verse of the Kur'an?

This is where we come into disagreement.Rashid Khalifa's claim is that the Kur'an was a book with an extra 2 verses which makes it a book taunted by man, where the muslims greatest defence to the non muslim world is that the Kur'an is a book not interfered or changed by man.
Your Rashid Khalifa has tried to contradict this beleif.

You say people were punished for their submission to hadith, Muslims have been submissive to hadith for centuries and centuries, why were they not punished by natural disasters?
The greatest Islamic states in history who ruled with justice followed hadith, why were some of them able to rule in justice for centuries?
Your claims take everyone who has followed Islam in these 1400 years to be morons.Because everyone for the past 1400 years followed hadith.And offcourse followed hadith second only to the Kur'an

Think carefully...
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  #20  
Old 03-21-2005, 04:26 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Satanic ritual in Iraq

landownunder: "Also,I have not denied the ayat of 19."Aleyha Tis'ata Ashar". Among them are 19.
However the topic does not interest me because
,I do not need to indulge my self with mathematical equations to Beleive the Kur'an is the word of God."


When God says "Over it is 19", He means it is His profound sign (signature) on the whole universe including the scriptures. God also says that it is one of the great miracles, a reminder for all humanity. Now by rejecting a sign God is showing you, you are rejecting Him with it. This is the litmus test, why it has been a secret for 1400 years? we cannot question God's wisdom.

-------------
landownunder: "Just answer me this.. Rashid Khalifa has anounced the last 2 verses of Surah Tevbe as not being part of the Kur'an because it doesnt fit in with his 19 equations,so for 1400 years people have been reading a Kur'an which has been incorrect?
What kind of a God was it that sent a book and couldnt protect it for 1400 hundred years like he says in another verse of the Kur'an?"



There is a difference between Quran (the scripture) and the "Mushaf" (the printed book). Some mushafs in the world now are circulating with a lot of print errors, missing words..etc, can we ask your question in this case too? why God didn't protect his book from the printing errors!

As far as we are concerened, the scripture always had the 6346 (19x334) proven verses intact, as for the two false verses (which exalt Muhammad) the sincere always had doubts about them, untill God sent us the messenger of the covenant to clear this matter. One of the functions of 19 is ([74:4] Purify your garment.) which means to purify the book from the satanic injections. The miracle is a perfect security system, if one word is changed, the whole mathematical composition falls apart. God indeed did preserve his miracle within the scripture and kept it hidden for 1400 years, in 1974 it was time to purify the religion of Abraham once and forall from the satanic fabrications.

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landownunder: "You say people were punished for their submission to hadith, Muslims have been submissive to hadith for centuries and centuries, why were they not punished by natural disasters?"

Isn't the muslim world's condition enough punishment! the most ignoranrt, undeveloped, defeated countries in the world are muslims, haven't you asked yourself why!. However the direct punishments are now starting, as per this verse which says that God doesn't punish except after sending a warning messenger, Rashad Khalifa did warn the muslim world of disregarding Quran in favor of Hadith, and that's why they killed him in 1990.

[17:15] Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger.

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landownunder: "The greatest Islamic states in history who ruled with justice followed hadith, why were some of them able to rule in justice for centuries?"

Which states do you mean exactly? do you mean the sultans who had vast palaces and harem, or the corrupt khalifas?

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landownunder: "Your claims take everyone who has followed Islam in these 1400 years to be morons.Because everyone for the past 1400 years followed hadith.And offcourse followed hadith second only to the Kur'an"

There are those who follow the corrupt laws of Hadith unwittingly, i for one used to follow some of the false practices because i didn't know better, and i believe God forgives those who sin out of ignorance. But when God sends you a reminder, your responsbility begins, as for you i hold you responsible to verify the miracle and make a decision regarding it, you either reject a messenger and a message from God and end up in hell or embrace the message and follow the guidance, you are responsible now infront of God, there is no escape from Him, you have recieved the reminder and you have to give God a response.

[2:38] We said, "Go down therefrom, all of you. When guidance comes to you from Me, those who follow My guidance will have no fear, nor will they grieve.

[46:32] Those who fail to respond to GOD's call cannot escape, and will have no Lord other than Him; they have gone far astray.

You have a once in a lifetime chance, don't lose it.
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