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Old 11-16-2005, 01:52 PM
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Default The Eye and the Pyramid


The Eye in the Pyramid
By: S. Brent Morris

In, at times, a strongly worded article Dr. S. Morris, a member and Past Master of Patmos Lodge #70, Ellicott City, Maryland, has "set the record straight" on the myth that the Great Seal of the United States represents a Masonic symbol. The facts are clearly presented, together with several examples of the use of the "All Seeing Eye" prior to any known Masonic use. This straightforward article is being presented as a STB so that Freemasons may have an answer when the question is asked "Is the Seal of the United States a Masonic symbol?"

HISTORIANS must be cautious about many well-known "facts." George Washington chopped down a cherry tree when a boy and confessed the deed to his father. Abner Doubleday invented the game of baseball. Freemasons inserted some of their emblems (chief among them the eye in the pyramid) into the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States. These historical "facts" are widely popular, commonly accepted, and equally false.

The eye in the pyramid (emblazoned on the dollar bill, no less) is often cited as "evidence" that sinister conspiracies abound which will impose a "New World Order" on an unsuspecting populace. Depending on whom you hear it from, the Masons are planning the takeover themselves, or are working in concert with European bankers, or are leading (or perhaps being led by) the Illuminati (whoever they are). The notion of a world-wide Masonic conspiracy would be laughable, if it weren't being repeated with such earnest gullibility by conspiracists like Pat Robertson.

Sadly, Masons are sometimes counted among the gullible who repeat the tall tale of the eye in the pyramid, often with a touch of pride. They may be guilty of nothing worse than innocently puffing the importance of their fraternity (as well as themselves), but they're guilty nonetheless. The time has come to state the truth plainly and simply!

The Great Seal of the United States is not a Masonic emblem, nor does it contain hidden Masonic symbols.

The details are there for anyone to check, who's willing to rely on historical fact, rather than hysterical fiction.

* Benjamin Franklin was the only Mason on the first design committee, and his suggestions had no Masonic content.
* None of the final designers of the seal were Masons.
* The interpretation of the eye on the seal is subtly different from the interpretation used by Masons.
* The eye in the pyramid is not nor has it ever been a Masonic symbol.

The First Committee

On Independence Day, 1776 a committee was created to design a seal for the new American nation. The committee's members were Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams, with Pierre Du Simitiere as artist and consultant[1]. Of the four men involved, only Benjamin Franklin was a Mason, and he contributed nothing of a Masonic nature to the committee's proposed design for a seal.

Du Simitiere, the committee's consultant and a non-Mason, contributed several major design features that made their way into the ultimate design of the seal: 'the shield, E Pluribus Unum, MDCCLXXVI, and the eye of providence in a triangle."[2] The eye of providence on the seal thus can be traced, not to the Masons, but to a non-Mason consultant to the committee.

"The single eye was a well-established artistic convention for an 'omniscient Ubiquitous Deity' in the medallic art of the Renaissance. Du Simitiere, who suggested using the symbol, collected art books and was familiar with the artistic and ornamental devices used in Renaissance art."[3] This was the same cultural iconography that eventually led Masons to add the all-seeing eye to their symbols.

The Second and Third Committees

Congress declined the first committees suggestions as well as those of its 1780 committee. Francis Hopkinson, consultant to the second committee, had several ideas that eventually made it into the seal: "white and red stripes with- in a blue background for the shield, a radiant constellation of thirteen stars, and an olive branch."[4] Hopkinson's greatest contribution to the current seal came from his layout of a 1778 50-dollar colonial note in which he used an unfinished pyramid in the design. The third and last seal committee of 1782 produced a design that finally satisfied Congress. Charles Thomson, Secretary of Congress, and William Barton, artist and consultant, borrowed from earlier designs and sketched what at length became the United States Seal.

The misinterpretation of the seal as a Masonic emblem may have been first introduced a century later in 1884. Harvard Professor Eliot Norton wrote that the reverse was 'practically incapable of effective treatment; it can hardly, (however artistically treated by the designer), look otherwise than as a dull emblem of a Masonic fraternity.[5]
Interpreting the Symbol

The "Remarks and Explanations" of Thomson and Barton are the only explanation of the symbols' meaning. Despite what anti-Masons may believe, there's no reason to doubt the interpretation accepted by the Congress.

The Pyramid signified Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favor of the American cause.[6]

The committees and consultants who designed the great Seal of the United States contained only one Mason, Benjamin Franklin. The only possibly Masonic design element among the very many on the seal is the eye of providence, and the interpretation of it by the designers is different from that used by Masons. The eye on the seal represents an active intervention of God in the affairs of men, while the Masonic symbol stands for a passive awareness by God of the activities of men.

The first "official" use and definition of the all-seeing eye as a Masonic symbol seems to have come in 1797 with The Freemasons Monitor of Thomas Smith Webb -- 14 years after Congress adopted the design for the seal. Here's how Webb explains the symbol.

"[A]nd although our thoughts, words and actions, may be hidden from the eyes of man, yet that All-Seeing Eye, whom the Sun, Moon and Stars obey, and under whose watchful care even comets perform their stupendous revolutions, pervades the inmost recesses of the human heart, will reward us according to our merits."[7]

The Eye in the Pyramid

Besides the subtly different interpretations of the symbol, it is notable that Webb did not describe the eye as being in a triangle. Jeremy Ladd Cross published The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor in 1819, essentially an illustrated version of Webb's Monitor. In this first "official" depiction of Webb's symbol, Cross had illustrator Amos Doolittle depict the eye surrounded by a semicircular glory.

The all-seeing eye thus appears to be a rather recent addition to Masonic symbolism. It is not found in any of the Gothic Constitutions, written from about 1390 to 1730. The eye -- sometimes in a triangle, sometimes in clouds, but nearly always surrounded by a glory -- was a popular Masonic decorative device in the latter half of the 18th century. Its use as a design element seems to have been an artistic representation of the omniscience of God, rather than some generally accepted Masonic symbol.

Its meaning in all cases, however, was that commonly given it by society at large -- a reminder of the constant presence of God. For example, in 1614 the frontispiece of The History of the World by Walter Raleigh showed an eye in a cloud labeled "Providentia" overlooking a globe. It has not been suggested that Raleigh's story is a Masonic document despite the use of the all-seeing eye.

The eye of Providence was part of the common cultural iconography of the 17th and 18th centuries. When placed in a triangle, the eye went beyond a general representation of God to a strongly Trinitarian statement. It was during this period that Masonic ritual and symbolism evolved; and it is not surprising that many symbols common to and understood by the general society made their way into Masonic ceremonies. Masons may have preferred the triangle because of the frequent use of the number 3 in their ceremonies: three degrees, three original grand masters, three principal officers, and so on. Eventually the all-seeing eye came to be used officially by Masons as a symbol for God, but this happened towards the end of the eighteenth century, after congress had adopted the seal.

A pyramid, whether incomplete or finished, however, has never been a Masonic symbol. It has no generally accepted symbolic meaning, except perhaps permanence or mystery. The combining of the eye of providence overlooking an unfinished pyramid is a uniquely American, not Masonic, icon, and must be interpreted as its designers intended. It has no Masonic context.
Conclusion

It's hard to know what leads some to see Masonic conspiracies behind world events, but once that hypothesis is accepted, any jot and tittle can be misinterpreted as "evidence." The Great Seal of the United States is a classic example of such a misinterpretation, and some Masons are as guilty of the exaggeration as many anti-Masons.

The Great Seal and Masonic symbolism grew out of the same cultural milieu. While the all-seeing eye had been popularized in Masonic designs of the late eighteenth century, it did not achieve any sort of official recognition until Webb's 1797 Monitor. Whatever status the symbol may have had during the design of the Great Seal, it was not adopted or approved or endorsed by any Grand Lodge.

The seal's Eye of Providence and the Mason's All Seeing Eye each express Divine Omnipotence, but they are parallel uses of a shared icon, not a single symbol.
Notes

[1] Robert Hieronimus, America's Secret Destiny (Rochester, Vt.: Destiny Books, 1989), p. 48.

[2] Patterson and Dougall in Hieronimus, p. 48.

[3] Hieronimus, p. 81.

[4] Hieronimus, p. 51.

[5] Hieronimus, p. 57.

[6] C. Thomas and W. Barton in Hieronimus, p. 54.

[7] Thomas Smith Webb, The Freemasons Monitor or Illustrations of Masonry (Salem, Mass.: Cushing and Appleton, 1821), p. 66.

[8]Jeremy Ladd Cross, The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor, 3rd ed. (New Haven, Conn.: By the Author, 1824), plate 22.
References

Cross, Jeremy Ladd. The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor, 3rd ed. New Haven, Conn.: By the Author, 1824.

Hieronimus, Robert. America's Secret Destiny. Rochester, Vt.: Destiny Books, 1989.

Webb, Thomas Smith. The Freemasons Monitor or Illustrations of Masonry. Salem, Mass.: Cushing and Appleton, 1821.

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  #2  
Old 11-16-2005, 07:07 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Thanx BONDI. You've provided my first chuckle for the day. Off to my new job with renewed vigour.

Are you from Oz? I'm presuming. Sydney? A Botany Wig perhaps?

You know, all insults aside. BONDI, if it walks, quacks, has feathers, waddles, DNA matches, lays eggs, flys south for the winter and tastes like duck when roasted...the chances of it being a duck is high.

I am no expert of the Freemasonic movement but I have been studying Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, dream work and astrology for 13 years and know my metaphor and symbology.

You are either a lier or so far down on the rung you have nothing to say.

All the best regardless. Stick around. Sincerely.

TB
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2005, 03:37 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

If anyone has any doubt that Masonry is incompatible with Christ, check these sites:

http://www.emfj.org/ (ex-Masons for Jesus)
http://www.cuttingedge.org/fmcorner.html
(Freemasonty corner at cutting edge.org)

Masonry is not an integrated, uniform organization. In this, Biondi is right. Some lodges are more social, some are more occultist. Some have this, others that tradition. Some get you into occultism quite early, some only at the higher degrees.

BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER. They are just raw material for the globalists/occultists. Even though the lodges are apparently very disconnected, on the top they are all in the hands of the same people. As they say, they are cattle waiting to be used by their leaders. Some guys may spend their whole lives in Masonry and never really get into the heavy hard core witchcraft...but if the need and opportunity arise, the right ones will be picked up.

For the globalists, what matters is that the cattle is there, waiting to be used.
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Old 11-17-2005, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
Are you from Oz? I'm presuming. Sydney? A Botany Wig perhaps?
Kinda showing your intellect here, look under my name it states UK. Funny how presumptions are made from a single word, Bondi always make people think of the beach.

A perfect example of stereotypical thought patterns which makes it so hard for people to change from fiction to fact if they have been fed it and believed it for a period of time.

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
You know, all insults aside. BONDI, if it walks, quacks, has feathers, waddles, DNA matches, lays eggs, flys south for the winter and tastes like duck when roasted...the chances of it being a duck is high.
Actually it's probably chicken.

But I get your point, the only problem is you need to know not just hear how it walks, how it quacks and whether it waddles or not first to be able to make the connection. Just because someone says something, doesn't make it so.

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
I am no expert of the Freemasonic movement but I have been studying Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, dream work and astrology for 13 years and know my metaphor and symbology.
Well if you study CJ I am quite surpirsed at your outlook, some of his personality theories I quite cool.

I am glad you have taken the time to study metaphor and symbology, cause you will know that one symbol can have multiple meanings, dependant on where it is used and how it is used.

The five pointed star is the perfect example, maybe you could explain this symbol? Just so I know you are not bluffing regarding your studying.

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
You are either a lier or so far down on the rung you have nothing to say.
I don't lie, but then you'll have to trust me on that.

Whats has a rung of the ladder got to do with anything.

How sloppy of an argument, from some who is not a Freemason, admits to being no expert, to turn round and act as if they know more and state I don't because I must be on a low rung.

By that argument you obviously haven'y got the foggiest cause you aint even on the first rung.

Try and make sense!

You obviously believe those who are not masons can know it all, but yet as soon as a mason argues the point you simple say you are not high up enough, I am sure your 13 years of study has equipped you with the ability to think better than that :-o

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
All the best regardless. Stick around. Sincerely.

TB
I intend to hang around a bit, but why not take a break from chucking all that conspiracy mumbo jumbo at me and take the opportunity to discuss it.
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Old 11-17-2005, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Masonry is not an integrated, uniform organization. In this, Biondi is right.
That's a first :lol:

Quote:
Some lodges are more social, some are more occultist. Some have this, others that tradition. Some get you into occultism quite early, some only at the higher degrees.
Okay, I'll underline this bit this time, see if it sinks in

FREEMASONRY ONLY HAS THREE DEGREES

Decide what you are talking about. And the order you are talking about requires the Christian Faith to join it.

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER. They are just raw material for the globalists/occultists. Even though the lodges are apparently very disconnected, on the top they are all in the hands of the same people. As they say, they are cattle waiting to be used by their leaders. Some guys may spend their whole lives in Masonry and never really get into the heavy hard core witchcraft...but if the need and opportunity arise, the right ones will be picked up.

For the globalists, what matters is that the cattle is there, waiting to be used.
Where do you read this stuff :lol:
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2005, 09:53 AM
noNWO4me noNWO4me is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Bondi: I would like to sneak in here with this question. Sorry, to barge in amongst some more serious noted querries/comments. But anyway, where does all this money that Freemasonry has---goes? BUMPER STICKER: Freemasons contribute billions each day? Huh???

I never hear of any contribution to local charities, for example: homeless shelters, programs for children of low income family. Why don't they help out schools??????
Truly, I've never heard anything said that 'this and that' contribution came from the Freemasons.

And as for what I believe about Freemasonry:
They are (grand)masters of deception. All to gain for themselves. They'll tell you that green paint will be the rage next year, and then 'we' go and buy this trendy green paint while 'they' have invested and made good on their investments of what 'they' said would be the rage/trend in the first place.
And this is just one (small) example of what they are up to. Like my neighbor (who cleans houses for a couple of Masons) said: "each time there's a war, Mr/Mrs. SO SO gets good returns on their stock/investments. Hmmmmm!

They are constantly keeping 'others' down (far away from the money trail).
They want all the privileges, rights, comfort, wealth.
They never really have to own up to any wrong doings. It's as if this is their 'right to do wrong' and not have to pay any consequence. The reward of being a Freemason is: just do it, we'll help you get away with it, brotha!

This is what many people have noticed about those that they know to be Freemasons. What? Are we imagining things? Nope!!!!

Freemasonry has its rewards and security for its members. People know this. This is why many believe that a Freemason can commit murder and truly get away with it. Can you name me a Freemason who went to jail for good!!!! No, you can't-----because they never get convicted/sentenced.

Bondi: Are you able to tell us a little about yourself? Truly, you made an entrance here for us to ask you anything about Freemasonry. So what gives?

By the way: thanks for any response to my post here.
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
Bondi: I would like to sneak in here with this question. Sorry, to barge in amongst some more serious noted querries/comments. But anyway, where does all this money that Freemasonry has---goes? BUMPER STICKER: Freemasons contribute billions each day? Huh???
Bumper stickers? Only in America.

Freemasonry is one of the largest contributors to charity in the UK.

They were one of the first organisations to donate to the relief funds for the recent disasters around the world.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
I never hear of any contribution to local charities, for example: homeless shelters, programs for children of low income family. Why don't they help out schools??????
I can't really quote figures for everywhere but give you an idea of where to look.

In England for example there are masonic schools for boys and girls. There not masonic, but funded by Freemasonry.

In America I belive you have DemMolay and Raindow Girls. Not being in America I wont quote too much as it is not familiar to me, but I will gladly find you some sites to look at if you want.

My own lodge funds the local air ambulance.

Alot of what masonry donates is done "anonymously" kudos is not a reason to donate money. I know it is easily argued that we simple say we do and use the fact we do it anonymously to hide the fact.

You also have the Shriners, not afiliated as such with Freemasonry but every member is a Master Mason, you have the Shriner hosptials etc, only just come to England so again I wont quote too much on it.

The UGLE provides information on charity at their website Here

This is just for UGLE each lodge in England does stuff for its own community as well.

At every lodge meeting there are two of three collections and a raffle, of which none of the money goes to Freemasonry, but to a worthwhile cause.

In England only one other organisation donates more money, the national lottery, and they are simply donating the peoples money, every bit of the donations made by Freemasonry as come as a result of Freemasonry.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:Truly, I've never heard anything said that 'this and that' contribution came from the Freemasons.
Anonymous donations is the reason.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
And as for what I believe about Freemasonry:
They are (grand)masters of deception. All to gain for themselves.
Do you think I have deceived you in anyway, or am i gaining from my time here?

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
They'll tell you that green paint will be the rage next year, and then 'we' go and buy this trendy green paint while 'they' have invested and made good on their investments of what 'they' said would be the rage/trend in the first place.
You don't honestly believe that do you?

If you have never heard of a Masonic donation to charity, I would love to know where you heard any kind of masonic advice in the vein of your comment above.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
And this is just one (small) example of what they are up to. Like my neighbor (who cleans houses for a couple of Masons) said: "each time there's a war, Mr/Mrs. SO SO gets good returns on their stock/investments. Hmmmmm!
Hmmm indeed. Don't think I really need to comment on this bit.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
The reward of being a Freemason is: just do it, we'll help you get away with it, brotha!
If that were true, a lot more people would want to be a part of it, trust me.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
This is what many people have noticed about those that they know to be Freemasons. What? Are we imagining things? Nope!!!!
You have to look on the larger scale. I wont deny that you wil find a mason that will go out of his way to help another mason. Saying that I would go out of my way to help my mates as well. Depends to what extent you are talking, and please don't come out with the once your a 32nd you have to swear to help a brother even if he's commited murder.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
Freemasonry has its rewards and security for its members.
That comment can be made to any organisation. The church was a sanctury for criminals for centuries.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
People know this. This is why many believe that a Freemason can commit murder and truly get away with it.
Oh please

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
Can you name me a Freemason who went to jail for good!!!! No, you can't-----because they never get convicted/sentenced.
I couldn't name you anyone who went to prison for good! Not really of interest, but just go to anti-masonic sites. They will give you as many names as you want. This is part of the problem, you get one person who will point out every criminal who was a mason, I believe Bundy etc have been quoted on here, and then another stands up and says they can get away with murder and no mason ever gets convicted.

Which is it. make up your mind and then we can address it.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
Bondi: Are you able to tell us a little about yourself?
What would you like to know, the outbursts I received on my first few posts would tell me I have been tried and judged as a Freemason already. :-?

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
Truly, you made an entrance here for us to ask you anything about Freemasonry. So what gives?
Not sure what you mean!

Why have I subjected myself to a barrage of insults and outlandish question?

I have said elsewhere, I am not overly concerned, in fact not concerned at all about whether people agree or disagree with Freemasonry. I stop on sites like this because I would rather people disliked with truth.

In all honesty 99% of Freemasons are nice folk, honest and caring and I find it unfair to see them all branded as criminals, paedophiles and the like, especially when many of the accussers have never taken the time to stop and talk to any.

Quote:
noNWO4me wrote:
By the way: thanks for any response to my post here.
I'll always reply if I can.

An cover as much as I can.

If I ever miss a post, its because there are a few of you posting and only me replying so just let me know if I miss anything.
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  #8  
Old 11-17-2005, 12:49 PM
Bouncer Bouncer is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Cor! I like the aprons. They speak of craftsmanship: both physical and social.
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Old 11-17-2005, 03:09 PM
freeman freeman is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

Quote:
You also have the Shriners, not afiliated as such with Freemasonry but every member is a Master Mason, you have the Shriner hosptials etc, only just come to England so again I wont quote too much on it.
Let me help you out, Bond-man:

Quote:
Fri, April 24, 1987
South Haven Daily Tribune
South Haven Michigan

Shrine Records Shocking

Dear Ann Landers:

That glowing letter about how much good the Shriners do was only half of the story. I believe you were taken in. The issue is not how much money the Shriners pass on to the hospitals they support but how much do the temples keep for themselves.

The Orlando Sentinal did a terrific series on this subject recently. I am enclosing part one. It will tell you all you need to know.

---R.L., TIPP CITY, OHIO


DEAR TIPP: Thank you for your letter and part one of the series by Orlando Sentinel. John Haile, editor of the Sentinel sent me part two. I was distressed by the information contained in that prize-winning story.

Shrine refers to their hospitals as "The soul of the Shrine"" and the Sentinal cited Internal Revenue Service records showing that although the Shrine is the richest charity in the nation, it gave its 22 hospitals for children less than one-third of the gross collected from the public in 1984.

The REMAINDER was spent on food, travel, entertainment, fraternal ceremonies and fund-raising.

The Sentinel reported that in 1985 the Shriners kept a whopping 71 percent of the money raised, about $21.7 million. This went to pay for a range of clubhouse expenses, including the upkeep of private bars, restaurants and golf courses. They also used the money to pay for conventions, travel and entertainment for their 880,000 members and, again, fund raising.

The Shrine''s most lucrative source of income are the circuses throughout the country. They generate about $23 million in 1985, the paper reported. The records show that LESS THAN 2 percent, or $346,251, went to the medical care of the children. I find this shocking.

In 1922 the Shriners established hospitals for burned and crippled children. Today they operate 19 orthopedic hospitals and three burn centers. I want to make it clear that I have received dozens of letters from readers who have told me they took their children to a Shrine hospital after a terrible accident, the youngsters received wonderful care and not one cent was charged. This an extraordinary testimony and a glowing tribute.

The facts uncovered by the Orlando Sentinel''s investigative reporters in no way diminishes services performed by the Shrine hospitals. The complaint is that a great deal of money that people think is being given to help crippled and burned children never gets there. In all fairness, I want it understood that every penny sent directly to the hospitals is spent solely to help the children.

Thousands of Shriners were appalled when the Orlando Sentinel made its findings known. They had no idea as to the financial workings of their fraternity. To their credit, many Shrine leaders are now demanding that the temples make clear whether fund-raisers benefit the children or the Shriners themselves. Four cheers for them.


Postscript

15 years later nothing has changed, the current percentage is about 25 percent, the Shrine continues to be the wealthiest "charity" in the world with it's assets now around the $10 Billion Dollar mark.

In 1998 the Shriners posted a $233 Million Dollar PROFIT, almost equal to the entire budget of the Shrine Hospital system.

In 2001 the Shrine announced a new fundraising drive amid a glitzy national advertising campaign.

In reality it is obvious this was little more than a P.R. and Membership Drive campaign for Freemasonry given the staggering excesses of funds raised over funds expended they already enjoy.

The largest "charity" in North America continues to convey only a fraction of the funds it raises for legitimate charitible uses, unlike real charities like the Red Cross and Easter Seals where the percent going to end users is 80% or better.

But then the Red Cross and Easter Seals don't have private bars, dinning rooms, meeting rooms, and Golf & Country Club/"Study Centers" to subsidise.
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Do you think I have deceived you in anyway, or am i gaining from my time here?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:04 PM
nohope187 nohope187 is offline
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Default Re: The Eye and the Pyramid

I doubt that Red Cross or Easter Seals are all that much better as they are government bureaucrat orginizations, are they not?
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