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  #21  
Old 03-27-2005, 02:26 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Re: Jesus From A Hindu Perspective


Ahmad,

I can`t believe that you didn`t understand that Christians believe that God is one manifested in three persons. maybe you don`t believe in it, but I can`t believe that you didn`t understand. it seems you are running out of arguments and is trying to confuse those who read this thread.

God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Jesus are all God. Three facets of the same thing. Same nature, same will, same essence.

I don`t understand how you think that the Trinity is more difficult to accept than Mohamed`s dreams and visions, followed by his wars and killings. Not a holy man at all, but a sinner of the worst kind.

Jesus, on the other hand, being God, was the only being that never sinned. That`s why He could pay for our sins. I choose to stand with Him.

Satan has done ALL he can in order to people reject the FREE offer of the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins. Hindu views of him as a enlightened master, a prophet, a good man, etc. But if people reject His free offer of salvation, and reject the fact that He was God incarnated, Satan wins your soul. The way to salvation is easy, but it requires repentance and humbleness. Maybe too easy for people who want to have things their own way.

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  #22  
Old 03-27-2005, 03:46 PM
DaddyLongLeg DaddyLongLeg is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

Hi everyone,

These are my thoughts on the Jesus is God’s son theme. Personally I don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God because God needs no sons or daughters. To say that God has sons or daughters is indirectly saying that God is somehow like man, which is not true.

Men and women have sons and daughters for a reason. The simplest reason I can see is because we die and our offspring continue that life after we have gone. God gave man the ability to multiply for many reasons, but the one that counts in this discussion is the continuity aspect.

Seeing how God is eternal, why would God need to multiply, He lasts forever. If we were also immortal we would not need to reproduce ourselves, but we don’t last forever so we have children instead.

We also have children to help us understand love and nurturing. Having children is also a way for men and women to grow and mature in their relationships with each other. In other words, having children teaches our spirits important lessons. God understands all these things already and always has. He has no need to have sons or daughters.

That’s my view.
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  #23  
Old 03-27-2005, 06:04 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

Quote:
DaddyLongLeg wrote:
To say that God has sons or daughters is indirectly saying that God is somehow like man, which is not true.
Well, the Bible is pretty clear that man was created in the image of God..

Here's a neat palor trick. I'm sure you're familiar w/ the Tetragrammaton, the 4-letter name of God (Yahweh) found in the Old Testament?



One way to write in Hebrew is from right-to-left (opposite from how you read in the Latin languages), which is how I wrote it above. Another valid way is to write from top-to-bottom.

Try that w/ the Tetragrammaton:






What you get (if you use your imagination a little bit) is a "stick figure" of a man(!) The Yud is the head, the first He are the arms, the Vav is the torso, and the second He are the legs..

It's just a parlor trick of course.... but... you can also say that man (in some sense) is created in the image of God(!) :-P
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  #24  
Old 03-27-2005, 06:09 PM
psholtz psholtz is offline
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Default Re: Jesus From A Hindu Perspective

Quote:
Saturnino wrote:
Jesus, on the other hand, being God, was the only being that never sinned. That`s why He could pay for our sins. I choose to stand with Him.
Like I keep telling you, take the word "Jesus" above, replace it w/ "Christ", and you'll be back on track.. ;-)
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  #25  
Old 03-28-2005, 12:22 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

Whatever disagreement I've had with Ahmed I understand to a point where he comes from. I think however Ahmed you use a sledgehammer to drive home a very subtle point.

Stop analysing endlessly and live a just life as best you can. No one say's this better than Jesus Christ. After all, God will look after it all, wont he? Why do you get so uptight and have to even come to this forum Ahmed if you're so sure of the fact that God is in control and we must do is submit?

You tell us to forget all this NWO stuff and simply relax and understand that it's all in Gods hands. If thats the case then there's no need for you to post here anymore.

God works through the hearts and minds of human beings. I would much rather go down the beach than sit and convert documentaries to web format. Something other than my selfish ego pushes me onto the net to discuss whats going on. Thats how God works.

You have many good things to say as do others. You are flawed as am I. However, I detect extreme arrogence in your views and a high degree of hyposcrisy. You cannot come out so strongly with your views while doing the opposite with your left hand.

If we want to pick the New Testament apart then we'd better start picking on a 1000 other ancient texts which do not come even close to the basic criteria for accuracy as does the Bible...time from the events to first printing, number of copies made and one other I cannot remember. The bible passes with flying colours.

From day dot people have been trying to undermine the New Testament...why not the ancient Hindu texts or the story of Buddah? Did'nt Buddah have sex with ten goats and beat and rape small children? No, but why not start a rumour for the heck of it.

People are so busy looking at details they fail to see the forest for the tree's.

Jesus Christ was at WORST a mortal man who had an experience of the divine at a young age. He integrated that experience into his life like no other human in history and gave his life for the truth. Not a bad effort.

At best the man who walked the Earth 2000 years ago was in fact the fully conscious incarnation of the Holy Spirit into human form. God became man to offer himself as a sacrifice to show just how much he loves us. Suffering the most unbearable pain we can imagine. I am profoundly moved by this thought.

I have been down every road from Carl Jung (who i still admire though fatally flawed) to the Eastern religions and even considered Islam...I have returned to my roots. I am a follower of Jesus Christ...often a very poor follower but doing my best.

Ahmed, just be and please stop preaching. Your all encompassing fundmentalism and fixation with a few numbers pale in vast comparison to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his compassionate word.

It works for me and have not the slightest inclination to try and convert anyone else.
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  #26  
Old 03-28-2005, 03:12 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

Peace,

I can just say that you (believers in Jesus=God) are decieving yourselves, know that the magnitude of this lie is unimaginable.

God calls it a gross blasphemy in His final testament.

The heavens are about to shatter

[19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"!
[19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.
[19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.
[19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.
[19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
[19:93] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.
[19:94] He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.
[19:95] All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.


I am simply a manifest warner, the tsunami was the latest warning for the idolworshipers(Muslims and Christians).

On 11.9 of this year the Quake of all times will take place, know that there is no escape from God, and that the warnings i am giving you are not from me.

You have uttered a great lie, God cannot possibly have a son. He has no partners in His kingship.

If the Most Gracious did have a son, I would still be the foremost worshiper

Be He glorified, God is much too Glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.


You are totally free to disregard these warnings, i am not a guardian over you.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2005, 03:42 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

I still say Ahmed that it's possible God incarnated into human form 2000 years ago and performed miracles to show his divinity.

It works for me. Whats wrong with it? When I take to heart the word of Christ I am listening to the word of God. Whats the problem?

I dont have a great love for Billy Graham but he said something once that made me understand Christ better.

He used the example of a human looking down on an ant hill. We're too huge and powerful to get immediately down into the lives of the ants so we would have to incarnate into 'their' world, down to 'their' size.

I agree with you that it's hard to imagine God, the creator of the vast and infinite Universe. Hence God incarnated as a human being at a time when there was a need for the word of great compassion in a hard and heartless world. Obviously there still is.

I take to heart your views when applying it to the Catholic church and the GROSS idolatorious worship of that scum called the Pope. I like many aspects of the Catholic faith but it has been totally usurped by the scum of the Earth as have most organised religion. Their love of Saints so on and so forth gives merit to your writing.

I dont believe this applies to Christ.

As for the coming months and years. God will act through the hearts and minds of fallible yet decent people to remove the scum that we have let reign over us for so long. As it's always been. I do not believe God will punish anyone, Satan worshipping power lovers with high tech weaponary are already doing that.

A new age is dawning and like all change it will be painful. I agree with alot of what you say.

I dont want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The 'story' of Christ shows us that though we may suffer heavily, bearing our cross and speaking the truth amongst so much lies and deceit, God promises we shall rise again. Renewed with hope and the life force. Ready to face all the dissapointment again and with each failure we grow stronger, more tolerent and more compassionate. Realising that we are a community of sinners struggling to find meaning in a world that wants to crush the human spirit and reverse the concept that we are all created in the image of God and are worthy of life and respect.

All God wants is to be remembered every now and then. A small price to pay but refused by many.

In that i'm sure we agree.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:13 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

In my humble opinion this is the most self-evident, easy to understand explanation I've read for a long time. Just my opinion.

---------------------------------

Incarnation of God in
Christianity and Hinduism

<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm#Incarnation%20of%20God%20in%20Christiani ty%20and%20Hinduism">Avatar - Incarnation of God</a>
By Swami Abhedananda
Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, Calcutta

The Lord says:

"Whenever religion declines and irreligion prevails, I manifest Myself to protect the righteous, to destroy evil, and to establish true religion".
-Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4, verses 7 & 8

...

According to the religion of Vedanta, the incarnation of God means the embodiment of divine qualities and divine powers. It takes place whenever and wherever such a manifestation is necessary. The blessed Lord Krishna, one of the great incarnations of Divinity, who appeared long before the birth of Christ, in speaking of divine incarnations, said:

‘Wherever true religion declines and irreligion prevails and whenever the vast majority of mankind, forgetting the highest ideal of life, travel on the path of unrighteousness which leads to the bottomless abyss of ignorance, and sorrow, the Supreme Being manifests His divine powers to establish righteousness and true spirituality, by assuming a human form and living in our midst, but at the same time showing to all that He is the real master of nature and absolutely free from all the bondages of the world and its laws’.

Such embodiments may take place at any time in any country. The Hindus believe that there have been many such incarnations of divinity in the past and that there will be many in the future. Krishna, Buddha, Jesus the Christ, Chaitanya and Ramakrishna, each one of these has been considered to be the embodiment of divine qualities and powers. The lives and deeds of all of them were superhuman, and consequently divine. They were full of the manifestations of such powers, as ordinary mortals do not possess.

A divine incarnation is one who shows from childhood that he is a born master of mind, body and senses, and the real lord of nature, yet who never forgets even for a moment that he has come to the world to help mankind. He is always conscious of his divine power, and he manifests divine glory through every action of his daily life. He never loses consciousness of his oneness with the eternal Truth, or the Father of the universe, the infinite source of wisdom and intelligence. He lives in the world like an embodied soul, possessing perfect peace, tranquillity, happiness and blissfulness, without depending upon the conditions and environments, which apparently bind the souls of ordinary mortals.

...

Ordinary people, whose spiritual eyes are not open, may not see the difference that exists between his [the incarnation of God] actions and those of a common mortal and may treat him like an ordinary man; but those, who are highly advanced in spirituality, who understand the true nature of the individual soul and of God and of their mutual relation, see the difference at once, recognize his divinity and worship him as the ideal embodiment of divine powers and divine qualities.

It is for this reason that the blessed Lord Krishna, the Hindu Christ, says in the Bhagavad Gita:

‘People who are deluded by My mysterious power of maya, do not know Me as unborn and unchanging; I am not manifest to them. They unintelligently regard Me in the light of an ordinary being with a material form which is the result of past actions, and know not that I assume at will glorious and holy forms for the protection of the world’.

...

The recent divine incarnation was one who appeared in the middle of the nineteenth century. He lived near Calcutta and his name was Ramakrishna. He is today worshipped by thousands of educated Hindus just in the same way as Jesus the Christ is adored and worshipped in Christendom. From his childhood he showed his power and set an example of absolute purity and divine spirituality, like an embodiment of those blessed qualities, which adorned the characters of previous incarnations, such as Krishna, Buddha, or Jesus the Christ. Those who had the good fortune to see and be with him even for a short time had their eyes open to the truth that he was absolutely super-human. Although he had received no school education, his wisdom was vast. He was the storehouse, as it were, of unlimited knowledge, and he showed at every moment of his life that he was the absolute master of his mind, body and senses, that he was entirely free from all the conditions that make an ordinary mortal a slave to passions and desires. He was like the personification of the Sermon on the Mount. No one could ever find the slightest flaw in his noble and divine character.

At one time, he was asked: ‘What is the difference between a holy sage and an incarnation of God who is called the Saviour of mankind?’ He answered: ‘A holy sage is one who has realized God through great pain, long prayers, and severe penances and after much trouble has saved himself from the attractions of the world, but he has not the power to save others; while a Saviour is one who can easily save hundreds without losing his own spirituality. A holy sage may be compared to a reed floating in the ocean of life, which cannot bear the weight of even a crow, but, when a Saviour descends, He easily carries thousands across the ocean like a large, powerful steamer (boat) which moves swiftly over the waters towing rafts and barges in its wake. The Saviour, like the most powerful locomotive, not only reaches the destination himself, but also at the same time draws with him loads of passengers eager to go to the abode of eternal Truth’.

Such is the power and strength of an incarnation of God. An ordinary person may strive and after a long struggle may attain to the realization of truth, which is salvation, but with a Saviour, this is not the way; he comes to help and save others. Whosoever worships and is devoted to any of these Saviours will, through that power of devotion alone, reaches the ultimate goal of all religions. As Jesus the Christ said: ‘Come unto Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest’. So the other incarnations of Divinity like Ramakrishna, Buddha and Krishna spoke to their followers, saying in the words of Krishna:

‘Giving up all the formalities of religion, come unto Me, and I will give thee rest and make thee free from sins; grieve not, I will also give thee eternal peace and everlasting happiness’.
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  #29  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:25 AM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Default Guidelines for religious posts ?

I believe we need here some guidelines about this preaching and religious matters. Ahmad, you work in this forum as an "agent provocateur". Whenever you see an opportunity, you bombard the thread with posts, you bury other people`s messages with cut and pasting two pages of the Quram and you never address the issue at hand. This leads to nothing.

I think we should stay at the points beings discussed. It is impossible not to discuss religion when we talk about Conspiracy, but it should be focused on the issue being discussed. If people want more details, they can PM you and ask for it.

We would like, for example, to understand what is the position of Muslims about the New World Order, or how the NWO is affecting daily life in Muslim countries. This would be something of interest to all. Someone explaining what Christians think about the NWO and how Revelation talks about it would also be an interesting thread. Same for Hindus, etc. Maybe I don`t AGREE with their views, but at least the issue would be pertinent to this Conspiracy forum.

But pushing your views over and over out of context, cutting and pasting large portions of your holy texts is not an honest approach.

Other people are guilty of the same error. See how this thread was started: church people are idolaters because they belive in Jesus Christ. Come on, what is the relevance of this is a conspiracy forum ? The person doing this only wanted to vent his hatred of Christians. Not a constructive thing.

Let's try to expose concisely what we believe and let it be. If others want to believe, that`s fine, if not, that`s their problem. I am a Christian myself, but I believe that my words by themselves will never be enough to convert anyone. God does that. Therefore, rambling and rambling won`t do any good to anyone.
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:43 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

I can dig it.

Christ still works for me.

Westerners in general should not try to take on the clothes of the East and make them fit. I am a Westerner and can never take on the passivity of the East.

Christ was both, feminine and recieving as well as chasing scum from the temple and preaching with masculine clarity.

It gets down to what fits for the individual. Certainly, i cant argue with the premise of your post Drak.

When i had just turned 22 (1992) i had a horrible thing happen. I was distraught for 2 weeks. Finally i accepted the inevitable and felt a degree of peace.

I had been given the job of unloading a pile of firewood from a trailor. It had been sitting their for 2 weeks while I recovered my senses. While I travelled back and forth from the trailor to the backyard a sudden feeling of complete peace came over me. It was like being on Morphine but far more intense.

In this sudden state i realised I was the entire universe. I was and always had been EVERYTHING for all time. I could count my red blood cells. I could 'feel' myself in every cell of my body. I knew that all disease was an expression of an ego ignoring the signals of the body, of 3 billion years of evoloution.

This intense experience lasted for 10 minutes and gradually trailed off over 2 hours.

It was a divine visitation. Christ Consciousness. Cosmic Consciousness. Transcendence. Experienced by many throught time. A direct experience of the 'numinous'. The 'Golden World'.

It took me 10 years to become stable again after that experience. You are never the same again. In a 'dry' Western world there are little places to turn. In the East it is accepted. Luckily, as fate would have it, i had a mentor who knew the experience well.

I knew then that we were all 'splinters of the God head'. Truly we were ALL children of God. So yes Ahmed, I agree with you on many things.

For a time I had no need of Christ or even God. After all...I WAS GOD. A dangerous place to be.

After a time I came to marvel at the fact that Christ was indeed the PERFECT VESSEL for the divine experience. He integrated that experience. Took it in his stride. That is amazing.

He was totally conscience of his divine origens. He was much further advanced than any Eastener who has not developed fully the conscious state but is still caught in the garden of Eden.

I dont have much time for 'Hindu Masters'. They usually turn out to be paedophile, bisexual heathens. Well documented.

Whatever works for the individual. Christ works for me.
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